Discuss Detroit » Archives - March 2009 » Ave Maria law school's move to Florida OK'd « Previous Next »
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Detx
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The last remaining Michigan peice of Monaghan's "Catholic Town" will soon be gone. I know at one time there were a large number of faculty who wanted to stay. Wasn't Monaghan's Ave Maria concept actually discouraged by Ann Arbor?

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20090221/S CHOOLS/902210387/1026
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good to hear. The state of Michigan doesn't need six law schools, especially with Cooley being the J.D. factory that it is.
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Detroitstar
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a proud Catholic, but his whole extreme-elitist take on this is pathetic. It is more nazi arian-supremic then catholic, if you ask me.
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Jams
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In other news about Ave Maria:

quote:

AVE MARIA — An Ave Maria University Board of Trustees member left the board under mysterious circumstances Thursday following a morning session.

Vic Melfa, 73, a Massachusetts entrepreneur who was appointed to the board last June, is no longer a member of the trustees, the university’s governing body.

Approached around 2 p.m. in Ave Maria’s town center with fellow board member James Holman, both confirmed that Melfa is not on the board any more.

“No, he’s not,” Holman said. “The how, why and wherefore is still up in the air.”

Said Melfa, “I guess that’s the answer, that I’m not on the board.”

Asked whether Melfa resigned or was removed, Holman replied, “That’s still to be decided.”




http://www.naplesnews.com/news /2009/feb/19/ave-maria-univers ity-board-has-one-less-trustee /
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Detx
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The state of Michigan doesn't need six law schools..."

Why not? Ohio has 9, Illinois has 10, and Florida, where AM is relocating, currently has 8.
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Cloud_wall
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detx, the answer to your question is very clearly stated in thejesus' post: Cooley puts out more JDs than any other school in the country and, I think, more than all the other schools in MI combined (no time to substantiate that now...could be off).

A lot of those people end up elsewhere, but the fact remains that we have WAY more new JDs every year than available jobs. This was true even before our recession took a spectacular turn toward depression.
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Detx
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CW, who cares if MI law schools graduate more JDs than then the MI market needs? Let the graduates worry about that. If they want to go to somewhere other than MI for employment, than so be it. They will, however, be paying their hefty tuition bills to a MI institution. This creates high paying jobs, tax revenue, and strong schools and neighborhoods.

MI is losing a university. What possible good could come from that? I understand that many people don't agree with the AM mission, and that's fine, but this relocation shouldn't be dismissed on those grounds. That would be like a West Michigan conservative rooting for U of M to fail because it is a left leaning institution. From a long term prospective, that's a dangerous attitude for folks to have.
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Wood
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

now that the justice department is being run by a different party, there aren't any jobs for Ave Maria grads anyways.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Cooley puts out more JDs than any other school in the country and, I think, more than all the other schools in MI combined (no time to substantiate that now...could be off)."

If not, they're pretty close.

Cooley enrolls more law students that UM, MSU, WSU, UDM and AM combined, but Cooley's attrition rate is so atrocious that a large portion (something like 1/3) of their entering class doesn't make it to graduation.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Why not? Ohio has 9, Illinois has 10, and Florida, where AM is relocating, currently has 8."

Illinois contains a little city known as Chicago, which is the 3rd largest city in America and 2nd largest legal market.

Florida has almost double the population of Michigan.

And the fact that Ohio has more law schools than they need to serve their medium-size population is not a good argument for Michigan having too many law schools as well.
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Cloud_wall
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detx, you make a pretty good point that a professional school brings positive qualities even if its graduates can't find work here. However, too many law schools and too many grads dilutes the market and hurts JDs from all the other schools, to the detriment of those better schools' reputations.

Also, thejesus hasn't expressed any ideological hostility. There are lots of reasons to cheer this move that have nothing to do with politics. AV found new ways to make a joke of itself in the news every few months, it seemed, and its departure will make the state's established schools stronger in the long term. There's still more than enough competition in the market.
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Crawford
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good riddance. Ave Maria will probably sink in the swamps of rural Florida. Funny how a Catholic law school would show it's love for God's creation by paving over virgin Florida swampland.

And there are FAR too many lawyers in MI. Ask my brother, who graduated top 30% at Wayne and is having trouble finding work (this is especially worrisome since Wayne is essentially the best MI law school, considering that UofM grads tend to leave the state).
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Rooms222
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>>>>And there are FAR too many lawyers in MI. Ask my brother, who graduated top 30% at Wayne and is having trouble finding work

This comes up in the Richard Florida article being discussed in another thread. Outside of Chicago, law firm jobs in the "Midwest" have been stagnant over the last 20 years, especially in bigger second-tier cities like Detroit and Cleveland. Chicago and NY/LA got the interesting new work and firms in places like Toledo and Grand Rapids undercut Detroit on price to get the more routine firm work. I remember many articles in such magazines as Corporate Counsel over the past decade where companies like Ford were bragging about sending routine work to cheaper firms in smaller cites..
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sweet. Now Ave Maria can be unaccredited in Florida instead of Michigan.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

And the fact that Ohio has more law schools than they need to serve their medium-size population is not a good argument for Michigan having too many law schools as well.



Ohio a medium-sized population? Uh, okay.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

And the fact that Ohio has more law schools than they need to serve their medium-size population is not a good argument for Michigan having too many law schools as well.



Practically no one lives south of Monroe County. It's just Cedar Point and cornfields. Didn't you know?
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Spaceman_spiff
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, AMSOL was a great school. The faculty, facility, and students were top notch. Although I did not agree with the ideaology of the school, it was at least a contrasting viewpoint. This contrast caused me to consider what I believed to be proper judicial philosophy, and what I considered to be the role of faith and reason in the law. I don't know what will become of the school in Florida, but I will miss it here in Michigan.
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Spaceman_spiff
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Sweet. Now Ave Maria can be unaccredited in Florida instead of Michigan."
- DaninDC

The school was accredited in Michigan, and the purpose of the thread was to announce that it will remain accredited in Florida.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My bad. It appears Ave Maria was accredited by the ABA in 2005.

I'm Catholic, but I don't know that I agree that Ave Maria provides "a contrasting viewpoint". To debate the intent and spirit of a law is one thing--to challenge law based on one's personal choice of religious beliefs is quite another. Don't be fooled--Monaghan founded Ave Maria not for a lack of fine law schools, but because a purely academic approach to law doesn't agree with his irrational religious zealotry.

The courts don't tell the Church what to teach, and I believe that religious zealots of all stripes need to likewise keep their paws off our legislative and judicial systems.

Tom Monaghan can tell all the Catholic orphanage nun stories he wants--anyone who proposes self-imposed segregation based on religion is an embarrassment to the Faith.

(Message edited by DaninDC on February 23, 2009)
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Detx
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, I would agree that AM provides a contrasting viewpoint to the dominant ethos of a modern legal education, namely, legalism. Especially when you compare AM’s law school mission with that of top tier programs such as NYU or Cal-Berkley, or even so-called Catholic law schools, like UD-Mercy, which doesn’t even have the word “Catholic” on it’s home page.

There is nothing “personal” about the curriculum at a Catholic university like AM. Monaghan isn’t sitting around picking what Catholic teachings fit his religious views and ignoring others. That’s called Relativism, which the Catholic Church does not support (Pope Benedict XVI has spent his entire ordained life battling it). The university was determined to be informed by Ex Corde Ecclesiae since day one. As for Monaghan’s personal statements and actions, I can’t attest to that, but if he were to state that religious need to be segregated, then, yes, I agree he’s gone too far.

The main problem I have with this move is that, once again, Michigan proves to be an unfriendly climate for any institution to setup shop in (or exist). As I understand it, Monaghan wanted the Ave Maria town, university, and law school all in Ann Arbor. Bureaucracy stifled his plans though, and now another state is going to benefit. Oh well, the beat (death march?) goes on. I guess we don’t need another university because, ah, our population is too small… Next up? GMAC!
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good riddance to bad garbage. I'd think even mainstream Catholics would be disgusted with the mission and culture of that school and its founder. I'd don't usually praise something moving away from here, but I'll hold the door for Ave Maria, if they'd like.
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Danindc
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Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There is nothing “personal” about the curriculum at a Catholic university like AM. Monaghan isn’t sitting around picking what Catholic teachings fit his religious views and ignoring others. That’s called Relativism, which the Catholic Church does not support (Pope Benedict XVI has spent his entire ordained life battling it). The university was determined to be informed by Ex Corde Ecclesiae since day one.



There are a lot of inferences and assumptions in this statement.

Ave Maria School of Law doesn't have quite the same mission as the University of Notre Dame. Ave Maria was founded explicitly because Tom Monaghan believes the academic and objective apporach to the law taught in reputable law schools doesn't serve the needs of his conservative religious dogma. In other words, Ave Maria is an attempt to make a "correction" for what Monaghan perceives as a liberal bias in other schools of law.

The practice of Catholicism, or any other religion, is a personal choice that one makes. Because one chooses to practice Catholicism, this does not give one a right to force change to the laws of our nation to fit one's Catholic beliefs. As Jesus himself said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, but give to God what is God's". Funny how the fundamentalists always seem to forget that passage.

I find it laughable that Monaghan wouldn't practice Relativism just because the Church disparages it.
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Rooms222
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Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it was Ann Arbor Township and not the city of Ann Arbor that stifled his plans.
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Bob
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Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is not your typical law school and I don't think it is the loss everyone is making it out to be. I would not be surprised to have this law school not even around in 10 years.
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Detx
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Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Ave Maria School of Law doesn't have quite the same mission as the University of Notre Dame."

No, it doesn't. Students go to Notre Dame because they can't get into Yale, Harvard, or they like their football tradition. No one goes there now because it's a Catholic university. Students go to AM, and schools like Franciscan University of Steubenville, Christendom College, University of St. Thomas, and Catholic University of America because they want to learn in an environment that is informed by Ex Corde Ecclesiae, thee reference point of Catholic higher education. While Notre Dame has a high reputation in the secular world, it is considered, in the world of Catholic higher education, to be "watered down". In fact, most Catholic universities have become “watered down”. Monaghan, and many, many others like him, have recognized this deviation, (in lieu of perceiving it).

“Because one chooses to practice Catholicism, this does not give one a right to force change to the laws of our nation to fit one's Catholic beliefs.”

Never said it did. The Catholic Church totally supports the separation of Church and State. But the Catholic Church knows that if the only consideration in creating/changing laws is humanity than our systems will always be flawed, because human law in itself is vain. For this reason the Catholic perspective on law is important because Catholic teaching reveals universal truths which secular humanism, legalism, and even other religions cannot.
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Danindc
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Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^There is a marked difference between using one's Catholic values as a moral basis in his legal practice, and outright crusading to bring existing laws in line with the views of the Church.
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Detx
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Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally, I don't think existing law should be in line with those of the Catholic Chuch, but I think they should be in line with the truth. I believe the Catholic Chuch is the only institution that has the fullness of truth.
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Alan55
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Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detx: " ...the Catholic Church knows that if the only consideration in creating/changing laws is humanity than our systems will always be flawed, because human law in itself is vain. For this reason the Catholic perspective on law is important because Catholic teaching reveals universal truths which secular humanism, legalism, and even other religions cannot."

Wow, I hope you don't actually believe this nonsense. This church arrogance has gotten us wonderful things like the the Crusades, the Inquisition, countless religious wars, and abuse by clergy. "Catholic teaching" is just one more flavor of religious bigotry. No thanks.
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Eastsideal
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Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I very much doubt if the Fathers who run the University of Notre Dame or the Jesuits who run the University of Detroit or Loyola in Chicago or Fordham in NYC consider themselves to be "watered-down Catholics." Detx, your personal formulation of all this conveniently passes over a whole debate in the church, and particularly in the American church, over Roman Catholic education and its wider role in our society. To treat Ex Corde Ecclesiae as a document without controversy, and to call such a relatively recent teaching "the reference point of Catholic higher education" is essentially to dismiss a lengthy history of inclusive (rather than exclusionary) Roman Catholic education in the U.S. A tradition that many in the church feel is very much worth protecting.
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Daddeeo
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Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I draw the line with fellow Catholics who want Latin back in style. Those guys are scary.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Personally, I don't think existing law should be in line with those of the Catholic Chuch, but I think they should be in line with the truth. I believe the Catholic Chuch is the only institution that has the fullness of truth."

That's because this nonsense has probably been beaten into your head since you were a little kid to the point that you don't even have any choice anymore but to believe in it. You've become dependent on it. What you need to understand is that most of us have not been so unfortunate in life.

"The Catholic Church totally supports the separation of Church and State. But the Catholic Church knows that if the only consideration in creating/changing laws is humanity than our systems will always be flawed, because human law in itself is vain. For this reason the Catholic perspective on law is important because Catholic teaching reveals universal truths which secular humanism, legalism, and even other religions cannot."

This is utter bullshit and a big part of the reason these child-fuckers have been so detested as of late.

So you think the Catholic church has some sort of monopoly on universal truth? And the rest of us are what; children who don't know any better? The arrogance you exhibit is astounding. It's no wonder that the Catholic church has been been facing trouble gaining new membership in this country in recent decades.

You don't see the rest of us coming into your church giving you our "perspective" on how ridiculous and flawed and silly your Sunday mass is. Likewise, please keep the teachings of your cult out of our legal system.
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Gistok
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I believe the Catholic Chuch is the only institution that has the fullness of truth.



Unofotunately that was the same line they were using during the Spanish Inquisition, and when they were stoking the fires of those that were burned at the stake during the reformation...

Funny how the executioner and the theologian were often one and the same...
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Daddeeo
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the reason so many Catholics have "fallen" away. No one has all the truth.
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Jams
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just for fun:
http://www.naplesnews.com/news /ave_maria/
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Unofotunately that was the same line they were using during the Spanish Inquisition, and when they were stoking the fires of those that were burned at the stake during the reformation..."

Which is all completely justified in Detx's eyes, I'm sure. After all, the Catholic church is the only institution that has the fullness of truth
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Eastsideal
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if one doesn't voice these objections to Roman Catholicism and Catholic history and practices, there is still a vast amount of philosophical space between most Catholic institutions of higher education in the U.S. and a Catholic-fundamentalist institution like Ave Maria. One has traditionally allowed and encouraged independent inquiry and free examination of ideas in a setting informed by Catholic tradition and thinking, while the other exists as essentially a means of further indoctrination and control and to inject religious fundamentalist ideas into our legal system.

There is really no precedent in the U.S. in modern times for such a thing as Ave Maria.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ave Maria is the fundamentalist Catholic's response to the craziness that is fundamentalist Protestant's Liberty University. Why anyone bothers trying to reason why Detx is beyond me.
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Det_ard
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Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^^^^^

Argue for your limitations and they will be yours.

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