Discuss Detroit » Archives - March 2009 » $300 Million "Pavilions of Troy" [Kmart Replacement] DOA « Previous Next »
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2213
Registered: 09-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another victim of the crash...

Just saw it on WDIV.

Another brochure for the digital landfill: http://www.thepavilionsoftroy. com/The_Pavilions_of_Troy_Pres s_Packet.pdf

Tough times everywhere my friends.
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Bearinabox
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Post Number: 1256
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm surprised it took this long. I assumed it had already been scrapped.
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2214
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


The Pavilions of Troy Detroit
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2215
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Such a cheerful world^.

I thought heard that were something like a $15 million state money behind it & when the developers asked for and didn't get another 40, down it went. I wonder what happens with that first chunk?
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Same, here, bear. I thought it was already dead. It didn't even seem realistic, at the size it was being proposed at, when it was originally announced.
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Rjlj
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Post Number: 791
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good riddance
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Hunchentoot
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Post Number: 121
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 3:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It looks like Cadillac Square when Central Market was there. Except as a horrible nightmare cartoon in the future. All of that money could have gone into actual Cadillac Square and do so much more good. As bad as the design is, it's not as bad as the building that already occupies the site.

Seems like a lot of effort for something that isn't so great though. Like the DEGC's plan to tear down Chene Park and put something else there. Hey -- why are we still putting up with the DEGC? Other than putting in some OK streetscapes, all they ever do is tear things down. DEGC can sit on it. I hope the economy makes it impossible for them to go through with any of their many demolition plans. Now I've hijacked this thread with a tangent. Oh yeahhh.
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Danny
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Post Number: 4489
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YAY!

Keep on losing more dream projects! It's good people that do nothing will cause the forces of evil to win.


When men gains hope God smiles. When men loses hope the Devil laughs.

The Great Recession is here so deal with it or face the collapse like the Soviet Union. Democracy can fall at anytime.
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 3798
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I knew that this was never going to be built even before the financial crisis.
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Danny
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Post Number: 4490
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GREED made America what it is and GREED is going to destroy America.
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Brg
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Post Number: 13
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember working at the old KMart headquarters many years ago. That is a large piece of property but I have to say that the project that was scraped was "pie in the sky"

As I posted in another post, people from other states or countries are not flocking to live in Metro Detroit in large numbers. The numbers would not justify investing such a large project even if the times were good.
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Gdub
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aww, no fake downtown for Troy. I guess you can't put lipstick on a pig.
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Dtowncitylover
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The rendition reminds me of Navy Pier in Chicago, except no water and no ferris whee. I could care less about this though, I don't think anyone here thought we needed another stupid outdoor mall.
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Softailrider
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Troy's a real pig. A pig where the police and fire department come instantly when called. Where you can walk down any street day or night with very few worries. A pig where the school system is excellent and the vast majority of students graduate high school. A pig where there's actually supermarkets and other retail. Sounds like a terrible place to live to me.
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Bearinabox
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Post Number: 1257
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Yeah, Troy's a real pig. A pig where the police and fire department come instantly when called. Where you can walk down any street day or night with very few worries. A pig where the school system is excellent and the vast majority of students graduate high school. A pig where there's actually supermarkets and other retail. Sounds like a terrible place to live to me.

This is becoming a recurring pattern on here. Poster A criticizes a suburb for being poorly-planned and not very interesting, and Poster B comes along and says "it has low crime, good city services, and good schools, therefore you're wrong." That argument is completely irrelevant. It's like if you said "That electric-blue paint on that house there is really garish and ugly" and I said "That's a wonderful house! It has granite countertops and stainless-steel kitchen appliances!" Regardless of the merits of either argument, it simply doesn't make sense as a response to the post to which you were responding.
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Bragaboutme
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With a city as small as Troy they better have that type of service. Troy is a nice place, I just don't understand why we have so many small cities in one area. If they would've consoledated all of the downtowns in this region Detroit would probably be larger than chicago. It's alot of backwards thinking that makes me want to leave michigan sometimes, not the City of Detroit. We are the only region in America where its suburbs feel they have to compare themselfs with its central city. The "we're better than you" has to stop.
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Gistok
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I too am happy to see this not come to fruition, but for totally different reasons... I like the building that is currently there.

Now granted... it's not the Book-Cadillac... but it is a nice representation of 3rd quarter 20th century architecture.

As individual compartments, I don't like the building... but as a whole, it provides an interesting silhouette that reminds me of some of the great crusader castles with massive stubby towers.

Of course, there would have to be a use found for it, which there currently isn't one.

Too bad that like the former GM HQ (which is now the State Office Building in Detroit)... the former KMART HQ couldn't be the Oakland County Government Center.... since the county government is currently housed in a rather bland campus on the western edge of Pontiac on the Waterford border.

But, the legal/political realities of moving a "County Seat" to a new town likely prevent any such option. But it would add some "wow" factor to one of the country's wealthiest counties.

Even Macomb County's downtown Mt. Clemens campus is more impressive than the Oakland County campus sprawl.

(Message edited by Gistok on February 20, 2009)
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Brownfieldguy
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the project just was not sustainable based on the economy. Whether it was a great design or not is very debatable. I think it could have been better. But that is just my opinion. Having worked on the development of a number of brownfield projects I can say that the MEDC was not in the mood to pump that kind of money into a project that sits on land that is of high value (regardless of the real estate market).

Which brings me to Troy. Its a nice suburban city with all the things mentioned above by some. Its suburban with no downtown and is a bit sleepy in some regards and we sure have our share of idiot politicians who spend their time fighting over things like Hooters, etc. Not really sure why its a pig in some people's eyes, but it is considered desireable by far more than not.

As I understand it a lot of a areas incorporated in order to not become annexed by the City of Detroit. I will gladly take the situation that exits in places like Troy, Rochester, etc. I have traveled all around this country and people do not believe me when I say that Metropolitan Detroit has some of the best suburban areas in the nation. For example they are far better than those in Chicago. The difference is that Detroit has little to offer these days while the City of Chicago offers much so people go downtown and use it. In Metropolitan Detroit people want the same things and often its not found in Detroit so they find it (or build it) in the suburbs.

Bearinabox is right, its becoming a recurrent theme on some of the postings. When bad news like this comes along there is somebody who takes a shot at the community. Its sort of like ha, ha! There really was no need to call the place a pig, etc. Of course you can express your opinion as that is what this forum is all about, but then you need to tolerate the responses even if you may consider the comments not relevant. For example, if I was to say Detroit is just a total unbelievable 3rd world shit hole that will likely drop into receivership... I can say that. And I say that I am informed because the US Army has also helped me see parts of the 3rd world. Or if I was to compare southern Oakland County and say that it is quite nice, affluent, safe ,etc. and then compare it to Detroit I could conclude that Detroit is the exact opposite. Oh, sure, the Fox and stadiums, and a few other attractions are nice, but then the money to save or develop those facilities largely come from affluent business people, developers, and corporations that live where? Oh, that's right, out in the suburban ("pig, piggy, pig-like?") areas.

I can say that stuff. But why? To piss people off? If your going to take the time to post something how about not sitting out there in front of your computer and essentially throw bombs to get people angry.

The road ahead is tough for the city and suburbs. I see little point in taking shots at each other. Besides, I like the bacon I get in Troy.

PS: I can't vote in the election for mayor. But some of you can. SO VOTE. Personally, I like Hendricks.
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Bearinabox
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To be clear, Gdub didn't call Troy a pig.
Besides, what's wrong with pigs? Pigs are perfectly fine for what they are; it's just that when they try to be something they aren't, the result is often somewhere in between comical and grotesque. To me, Gdub was just saying that you can't make Troy something it's not. You can't take a sprawling, decentralized suburb and give it a fake, built-from-scratch downtown, and expect it to turn into Royal Oak or Birmingham.
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Burnsie
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hunchentoot wrote, "Hey -- why are we still putting up with the DEGC? Other than putting in some OK streetscapes, all they ever do is tear things down."

Yeah, and pave the way for the Book-Cadillac and Fort-Shelby to be restored. Yep, really worthless.

I agree with Gistok that the Kmart headquarters is interesting-looking. Realistically, it's a lot better than anything that would likely replace it. I'd rather look at an unapologetically modern, "Brutalist" complex than a mishmash of cheaply built crap and fake "vintage" streetlights.

Unfortunately, of course, a modernist edifice that's empty does not pay taxes or employ people.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

As I understand it a lot of a areas incorporated in order to not become annexed by the City of Detroit. I will gladly take the situation that exits in places like Troy, Rochester, etc. I have traveled all around this country and people do not believe me when I say that Metropolitan Detroit has some of the best suburban areas in the nation. For example they are far better than those in Chicago. The difference is that Detroit has little to offer these days while the City of Chicago offers much so people go downtown and use it. In Metropolitan Detroit people want the same things and often its not found in Detroit so they find it (or build it) in the suburbs.



What makes Troy -- or any Detroit suburb -- different than any other suburb in the U.s.?
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Alan55
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Post Number: 2592
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It escapes me why the developer would need $15 million, $40 mllion, or ANY money to redevelop a commercial property in Troy, especially in light of the above post proclaiming how wonderful Troy is. The property in question sits right across the street from the Somerset Collection, certainly the most upscale retail mall in Michigan. Why would such a high-flying commercial area need any assistance?

What's next, the City of Bloomfield Hills requesting government funds to to eliminate blighted areas along Lone Pine Road?
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am as curious as Ihd, Brownfieldguy. I, too, have traveled a good bit of the country and the suburbia looks almost exactly the same.

We have Royal Oak, et all, which are spiced in and helps, but so do they have their like areas.

And why, Alan, would they need it? They don't. But in business, if someone is willing to hand you $15m or $40m you don't have to take a big risk on, you take it. You'd be an idiot not to.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't even considering building this a good sign for Metro Detroit? Suburbanites and developers saw value in a walkable downtown, or were afraid of Downtown Detroit and local small towns scooping up their businesses and potential new residents.

Now, was the interest in walkable downtowns just a fad, a trend, or something much more permanent?

PS: Amen Bear!

(Message edited by sean_of_detroit on February 21, 2009)
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Brownfieldguy
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bearinabox, I took the pig comment as a derogatory description, but I see what you mean in your comment. And in that vain I would agree, you can't make a grid layout style suburban area turn into a downtown like development and mirror Royal Oak, etc. Novi tried and it did not work.

As far as the suburbs being better that is pretty much my opinion especially if you consider other midwestern areas. And I mean a fair apples to apples comparison such as between two solid higher end suburban areas. Detroit will fair very well. My comments are also based on the experience and observations of others who have come in town and had bad or low expectations because they assume that the entire Metropolitan Detroit area is just like a bad section of the primary central city. Of course, people go and spend the weekend in the Chicago Loop and shop on Michigan Avenue and think all of Chicago is like that (NOT). These visitors are very surprised at how much there is to do and the nice housing stock that exists.

In working with developers its all about what you can get. If you can get the money to finance the demolition they will go for it. I was glad to see that the MEDC said no to this. And I am glad that the end around attempt to write legislation to fund this project failed. That is just hardball politics and influence. Not a good practice in my opinion.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been to a few suburban areas across the country, and suburban Detroit doesn't differ much from others that I have seen (except that they have yet to secure a Cheesecake Factory in suburban Detroit). This isn't to say that there aren't many nice areas of suburban Detroit (Cheesecake Factory deficiency aside), but it is to say that there really isn't anything unique about suburban Detroit. You can find suburban Detroit in any large or medium sized metropolitan area in this country.
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Brownfieldguy
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I guess it all comes down to an opinion on where places would rank. I think we fare better than many areas.

And I like the Cheescake Factory. I could go for one around here, but I do think their portions are too big. Unfortunately I always manage to finish!
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Alan55
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Digitalvision: "And why, Alan, would they need it? They don't. But in business, if someone is willing to hand you $15m or $40m you don't have to take a big risk on, you take it."

No kidding. I suppose if the State also offered the developer a Patek Philippe watch he'd take that too.

My comments were aimed at the sheer brazeness of the developers, and the naivete / collusion of the local officials to even ask for public money for a speculative, private project, especially in such a high-income area. This sort of unnecessary corporate welfare needs to be publicly ridiculed.
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321brian
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Troy is missing a great opportunity to turn Big Beaver in to their downtown.

Why not build retail stores close to the road with one row of angle parking in front? Then also include a back entrance for people parking in the back and people working in the buildings behind them.

I could be like downtown Rochester with high rises.

It could work and would look a lot more authentic than the prefab downtown at the K-Mart site.

Although I don't hate these developments as much as most here. All downtowns were new at one point and I am sure when the first businesses went up people were unhappy then too.
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Brg
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who are we kidding? This talk of building anything in these times are is just wishful thinking. To build anything on the level that this "Pavilions of Troy" would have been requires new blood to move into the area and the blood isn't flowing.

Something to think about. The state of Michigan sits on the largest supply of freshwater in the world, yet people would prefer to move to the desert than to live in Michigan in particular Metro Detroit. Because of this, businesses are either moving out or avoiding the state. We have to work to create a new image for the city of Detroit. A rotting Detroit doesn't help the suburbs and we are witnesses to it.
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Gdub
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Bear. I should have learned from Sarah Palin how that phrase can be easily decontextualized. Anyway, yes, Troy is relatively safe, clean, has big stores, etc., but it is evident from the rendering that there is an admission to the fact that there is very little community space (especially outdoor) in Troy, and this development was intended to address that. With the growing popularity of traditional downtowns, Troy surely recognized they were becoming a dated edge city and tried to drop a "downtown" where it wouldn't have naturally grown (as they typically do at existing walkable cross streets), as if building a skyscraper from the spires down. But that is in keeping with edge city planning, I suppose.
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Ray
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

321 Brian,

I loathe Troy, but I have the misfortune of running a business there. So, I can offer at least my view as to why the city of Troy does not have a "downtown."

The anwer, I believe to a moral certainty, is that the political leadership of Troy and constituents who elect them, there is a deep, deep antipathy to urban living. Big Beaver is very purposefully designed to be totally inaccessible to pedestrians.

You see, they believe that urbanization would bring the Negro, who in their minds would bring with him more shoplifting at Sommerset, unwed mothers, low test scores, poorly maintained yards, and potentially far worse symptoms of social disintegration.

Troy is becoming more diversified, and there is now a plaintive voice for a walkable built envronment. This has actually forced the city fathers to throw a few sops to this crowd of new urban subversives, such as for example the brick crosswalk at the intersection of Big Beaver and Coolidge. In perhpas the richest of ironies, it is impossible for most pedestrians to cross this particluar intersection at normal walking speed during the time allotted to a walk sign. You need to trot or run, or forfiet your life to the front grill of an oblivous motorist bearing down on the crosswalk at 60 mph. But the brickwork is pretty.

(Message edited by ray on February 22, 2009)

(Message edited by ray on February 22, 2009)
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Detroitrise
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great!

I hated the project from the beginning. Let's try putting all of that investment in downtown whenever/if the economy picks up. It will do us all better in the long run.
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Brg
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"such as for example the brick crosswalk at the intersection of Big Beaver and Coolidge."

Back in the 90's I worked at the KMart hdqrs and at SelectCare(blast from the past) and I remember crossing BB and Coolidge. I recall I would have run to get to the other side...LOL
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While he was still alive, architect Minuru Yamasaki (died mid 1980's) proposed that Troy turn Big Beaver into a pedestrian mall (of the type proposed for this failed project), and have Big Beaver be a ring road around this central plaza (perhaps one direction going a block north of Big Beaver, and the other a block south.

But the Troy city government never seriously studied the idea, and now Big Beaver is another version of M-59 in Macomb County.
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321brian
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Big Beaver and Hall Road are totally different and pedestrian malls are business killers.

Every good retail area needs car traffic and close parking. People don't want to walk too far.
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

321brian... sorry to respectfully disagree, but that 1 mile stretch of Big Beaver between 1-75 and Coolidge is very similiar to Hall Road between M-53 and Romeo Plank. Ever try crossing either one?

As for pedestrian malls... yes they don't work well in the USA where Americans are too fat and lazy to walk far, but they thrive in Europe, where walking and hiking is commonplace.
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Danindc
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Every good retail area needs car traffic and close parking. People don't want to walk too far.



Unless, of course, you create a pleasant walking environment, as opposed to an automotive sewer. But that's a whole other thread....
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321brian
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hall road is 10 lanes with a HUGE meidan and big beaver is 6 lanes with a narrower median.

hall road is mostly retail and big beaver is mostly offices.

so, ya they are both tough to walk across but they are totally different in every other way.

they aren't made for anyone to walk across. well, except for in a mall.

as far as looks i think big beaver is way better looking. they just widened hall road and forgot about landscaping.

"Unless, of course, you create a pleasant walking environment, as opposed to an automotive sewer."

so you want everyone to walk everywhere. well, who is going to need the cars that keep/kept so many people around here employed for so long.

the detroit area is an "automotive sewer" because all of it's wealth was created by building cars.

move to nyc or portland or anywhere in europe where cities were already established long before cars were around.
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Bob
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to admit I hate Hall Road and avoid it at all costs, but there is enough room left in that median for a light rail line.
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Fishtoes2000
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Troy's credit, they are hiring some top notch planners to develop a non-motorized plan for the city, not unlike what Detroit has done.
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Brownfieldguy
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gdub,

It doesn't really pay to be condescending. But nice use of the word "decontextualized." It pretty obvious you really know little of this development. It was not specifically developed to address community space issues. Hell, Troy has a large number of parks significant in size along with an aquatic center, two golf courses, and a first rate community center. Plus there are other features available that also represent open space community areas such as the Troy Farm and the Historical Museum Complex.

This development was not designed to address some urban planning flaw, but rather the developer thought it was something that could sell and make money with.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

the detroit area is an "automotive sewer" because all of it's wealth was created by building cars.

move to nyc or portland or anywhere in europe where cities were already established long before cars were around.



Rest assured, young educated people are heeding your advice.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 1121
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"the detroit area is an "automotive sewer" because all of it's wealth was created by building cars."

That's a lame excuse. Most people who want a walkable environment are not looking to ban cars. They just want as much thought given to providing a place to walk and bike as we give to moving cars and providing places to park them.

[Left out "not" which totally changed the meaning of what I wrote.]

(Message edited by Novine on February 23, 2009)
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3808
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:


so you want everyone to walk everywhere. well, who is going to need the cars that keep/kept so many people around here employed for so long.



It's amusing how quick some of us are to trash Detroit and/or Michigan, but hold steadfast allegiance to the automotive industry. One thing we know about our current financial situation is that the American auto companies are never going to be as big as they once were. They will never employ as many people as they once did. There is no need to plan your community around an unattractive and inefficient design model in order to appease a contracting industry.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 594
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Novine,

I totally disagree.

Have you looked around. If you have you probably noticed that most people around you are overweight.

At a large shopping center like the one at Maple and Coolidge it is not uncommon for people to drive from store to store.

There are sidewalks so why don't people walk?

If you actually read all of the post here the automotive sewer comment was made towards my comment of people just want parking close to shopping.

Iheartthed,

Like it or not this whole area is planned around cars. Most of the country is.

I just love how the guy who wants a walkable downtown and light rail nearby is also probably the first person to bitch about auto jobs disappearing.
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Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3809
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Like it or not this whole area is planned around cars. Most of the country is.



But does that make it right? Transit ridership is at record levels in every city that has one to offer. I like cars and I like to drive, but I can see the writing on the wall. Detroit can be and probably should always be the automotive capital of America, that isn't the question. The question is will Detroit being just the automotive capital be enough to sustain it? It's quite clear that the answer to that question is no.
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321brian
Member
Username: 321brian

Post Number: 595
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It doesn't make it right but it makes it difficult and expensive to change.

Until somebody comes up with a decent plan for mass transit and gas stays above $5 a gallon for a long time then it's cars. Like it or not.

I think for mass transit to work it will have to be something like elevators in tall buildings.

You will need express trains that have one pick up point and won't stop until say Maple and Woodward.

Otherwise there will just be too many stops for the person going a long way north.
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Novine
Member
Username: Novine

Post Number: 1124
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Until somebody comes up with a decent plan for mass transit and gas stays above $5 a gallon for a long time then it's cars. Like it or not."

Every other major US city has a decent mass transit system including light rail. Many smaller cities have light rail. But somehow Detroit is different and special and what can be accomplished everywhere else can't be accomplished in Detroit, even when many of those cities grew almost entirely in the area of cars?
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Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd

Post Number: 621
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 3:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I just love how the guy who wants a walkable downtown and light rail nearby is also probably the first person to bitch about auto jobs disappearing.



We can have walkable communities, light rail, AND a healthy auto industry. These things are not mutually exclusive. Unlike Detroit, cities in Japan and Germany are very walkable and have great mass transit systems. It is quite obvious that the walkable cities and wonderful rail systems in Japan and Germany have not hurt their automakers, so why would it be any different in Detroit?

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