  Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 449 Registered: 10-2003 |
While not exactly a Detroit issue, we are certainly deeply connected to this. It is scary. http://www.independent.co.uk/n ews/uk/politics/this-is-the-wo rst-recession-for-over-100-yea rs-1605367.html Britain is facing its worst financial crisis for more than a century, surpassing even the Great Depression of the 1930s, one of Gordon Brown's most senior ministers and confidants has admitted. In an extraordinary admission about the severity of the economic downturn, Ed Balls even predicted that its effects would still be felt 15 years from now. The Schools Secretary's comments carry added weight because he is a former chief economic adviser to the Treasury and regarded as one of the Prime Ministers's closest allies. Mr Balls said yesterday: "The reality is that this is becoming the most serious global recession for, I'm sure, over 100 years, as it will turn out." He warned that events worldwide were moving at a "speed, pace and ferocity which none of us have seen before" and banks were losing cash on a "scale that nobody believed possible". The minister stunned his audience at a Labour conference in Yorkshire by forecasting that times could be tougher than in the depression of the 1930s, when male unemployment in some cities reached 70 per cent. He also appeared to hint that the recession could play into the hands of the far right. "The economy is going to define our politics in this region and in Britain in the next year, the next five years, the next 10 and even the next 15 years," Mr Balls said. "These are seismic events that are going to change the political landscape. I think this is a financial crisis more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s, and we all remember how the politics of that era were shaped by the economy." Philip Hammond, the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said Mr Balls's predictions were "a staggering and very worrying admission from a cabinet minister and Gordon Brown's closest ally in the Treasury over the past 10 years". He added: "We are being told that not only are we facing the worst recession in 100 years, but that it will last for over a decade – far longer than Treasury forecasts predict." The minister's comments came as the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, admitted the global economy was "seeing the most difficult economic conditions for generations". Writing in today's /Independent/, Mr Darling said his plans for shoring up Britain's finances included "measures to insure against extreme losses" as well as separating out impaired assets into a "parallel financial vehicle". Unemployment figures out tomorrow are expected to show the number of people out of work has passed two million. The Bank of England's quarterly inflation report, also released tomorrow, is expected to include a gloomy forecast for economic growth. Yesterday, the Financial Services Authority warned that the recession "may be deeper and more prolonged than expected", adding that the global financial system had "suffered its greatest crisis in more than 70 years". Speaking to Labour activists in Sheffield, Mr Balls conceded that the Government must share some of the blame because it had failed properly to control the banks. But he accused the Tories of blocking Labour's attempts to tighten financial rules. He said: "People are quite right to say that financial regulation wasn't tough enough in Britain and around the world, that regulators misunderstood and did not see the nature of the risks of the dangers being run in our financial institutions – absolutely right." The other great depressions *Long Depression, 1873–96 Precipitated by the "panic of 1873" crisis on Wall Street and a severe outbreak of equine flu (Karl Benz's first automobile did not chug on to the scene until 1886), it was remarkable for its longevity as well as its global reach. In Britain, it was the rural south rather than the rich cities of the north that suffered. The UK ceased to be a nation that relied in any way on farming for its livelihood. *Great Depression, 1930s The "Hungry Thirties" were rough on many, at a time when welfare systems were rudimentary. The worst period was from the Wall Street Crash of 1929 to about 1932, but in places such as Jarrow, the unemployment rate hardly dipped below 50 per cent until the economy was mobilised in 1940. However, for many in the south and for the middle classes, the times were relatively prosperous. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5290 Registered: 06-2004 |
My question is: What's really causing this? Is it an upward consolidation of wealth to the point that spending is inadequate to maintain the economy? Is it a redistribution of middle class wealth to less prosperous nations overseas, raising up some but not enough to maintain past spending? Is it a combination of both or something entirely different? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4142 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'd say it's mostly the the former (i.e. upward consolidation of wealth). The lords of finance and those the CEO's and management class that directly depend on them, have become skitish, so they are taking their ball and going home for the time being. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9019 Registered: 12-2003 |
There is no question that this economic catastrophe was served to us on purpose. Some of you on this side of the forum may have missed out earlier Non-D discussions...but take a gander at the Georgia Guidestones to see the most tangible evidence of some group who wishes to reduce the population of the earth to more, um, manageable levels. Then remember that back on September 10th, 2006, General Wynne on the Joint Chiefs of Staff admitted that the Air Force had a portable microwave crowd-control slow-cooker that they wouldn't test in wartime because "they couldn't control the foreign press"...so they were planning on using it on civilian crowds instead. Years ahead of this crisis...why would he be expecting riots back in 2006?! I wondered that then. Of course, there is the little admission that they COULD control the local press... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9020 Registered: 12-2003 |
Here is Wynne's wiki...watered down a bit, but the intent is still clear. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4144 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jeeze, talk about a conspiracy theory. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9021 Registered: 12-2003 |
Let's! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4145 Registered: 10-2003 |
Let's not. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9023 Registered: 12-2003 |
Scared of what you might ponder, L?! Even worse, what you might learn? You're probably one of those folks who do not want to know that the Joint Chiefs of Staff developed a plan to incite the country into war...by blowing up a plane of innocent civilians and causing a failure of a NASA launch?! That one was called the Operation Northwood, and the year was 1962. Fellow who would NOT authorize their plan to bring Cuba back to Mafia haven status actually fired the fellow in charge. His brother was the mayor of Dallas, Texas...who had the power to re-route the motorcade just enough to make the killing of JFK an easy certainty. The plan echoed the successful False Flag Operation on September 11th, 2001...but it is too hard to fathom anyone within our government acting for their OWN gain instead of the whole, right?! Plus, the population couldn't be THAT easy to incite to war, can we?! People like you don't want to know such things, and I wonder why. I pity your ignorance. In a way, I envy it, too. Makes you simple sheople...easy pickings for the bad wolves. They are circling, even now. | ||
Rid0617 Member Username: Rid0617 Post Number: 397 Registered: 03-2008 |
"My question is: What's really causing this?" This might be long and it's only an old mans opinion. I think it is a combination of many things. Started with greedy brokers who saw ways to earn out of control commissions by selling mortgages designed for people that never should have had one. Even my daughter got one without even proving what their income was. Income was inflated, the ARM was wrote in a way all she saw was affordable payments and didn't worry about the long term. The next problem was too many people are possession oriented. The past 10 years have had more commercials on TV than any time in history and they all had one theme. But, buy, buy, get the newest and latest. People thinking they deserved these toys were not willing to save for them and credit was too easy to obtain. Only problem was all of the bills come due. Just like in the '29 crash people living off of credit met the reality they couldn't pay for. People started cutting back. If people arn't buying, factories arn't making, people are getting laid off. What I'm afraid of now is all the things Obama is trying will only delay the inevitable. Bush allowed it to get too out of control while telling us the economy is fundamentally strong. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 234 Registered: 02-2007 |
Gannon, I am deeply dissapointed, I respected you for your various inputs until your coming out of the closet this morning...... Conspiracy theorist....????? regards | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 235 Registered: 02-2007 |
It is caused by many things and too numerous to list here but a few are starting in the late 1970's and continuing on thru the 2000's...we have been living on credit and then excessive credit in a new way... anew liberal way and we are now experiencing the collapse of that credit bubble... Add to this the advent of the Computer, the Internet, 24/7 Air Freight, 24/7 Communications, a USA Corporate mentality of Greed, a lack of Accountability for those that Govern the USA and there you have it.... With our Manufacturing so diminished (gone global), our Housing and related commerce in the toilet(sub prime debacle)it is unlikely we will ever return to the Standard of Living of the 1980's 1990's.... We will survive and there will be a comeback years from now but our new Standard of Living will be closer to that of Mexico's than what we priviously enjoyed... My 2c worth regards that is the over simplifed short version IMO | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 689 Registered: 05-2006 |
This is something that has been going on for a long time and a number of things have come together at once to create this terrible situation we are now in. I think however this article gets to the root of the problem we are now facing and it has implications for the future of Detroit. Detroit has always been about manufacturing.. cars, horseless carriages before that and stoves before that. This article gives you something to think about. http://www.thetrumpet.com/inde x.php?page=article&id=1955 | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 689 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have a theory. This current economic crisis is really based on a large increase in productivity brought about by the personal computer. The last time society had such a large increase in productivity was the advent of the assembly line, which was actually the real cause of the great depression. It took almost 20 years, a generation, for the effects of both increases in productivity to have a negative effect on the economy. Each crisis came after an era of prosperity caused by the same. Then again, it could just be the "wake & bake". | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 525 Registered: 07-2008 |
Lilpup: "My question is: What's really causing this? Is it an upward consolidation of wealth to the point that spending is inadequate to maintain the economy? Is it a redistribution of middle class wealth to less prosperous nations overseas, raising up some but not enough to maintain past spending?" Yes, and Yes.... | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 3342 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "What's really causing this?" Globally? Junk securities, chocked full of fake mortgages here in the US. Who is responsible? Follow the money. Domestically, funneling money into Asia like never before. Largest transfer of wealth ever. China is a black hole, unlike Japan we can never satisfy. The US economy is the lynch pin for the world bank. If we go down, everyone else involved is going with us. Why I keep harping about our trade situation with China. It needs to be addressed immediately. It isn't and why Obama is falling out of favor with me rapidly. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 3900 Registered: 11-2007 |
quote: Sstash - It's only been four weeks, he can't be everything to everybody all at once. Write you're Representative in Washington, or manufacturers that you buy from. Easier from the ground up, than the top down, as we have learned from past years. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 3343 Registered: 02-2007 |
Consumers are going to control trade? This hasn't been the case. The "buy American" efforts have had little effect, if any. Largely, consumers could care less where the money goes. Look at how many refuse to buy an American car. Think I'm being impatient about the Obama administration's reluctance to act? I don't. The magnitude of the situation is being totally underestimated and seemingly swept under the rug as it has been for the last 20 years. It demands immediate action. Stimulus packages aren't going to fix anything. The last one or two measures they have taken have came and went and things have gotten worse. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 452 Registered: 10-2003 |
What should the Obama administration be doing that it isn't doing now? | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 216 Registered: 10-2003 |
come on English, the answer to your question is easy, fix it. He has had four whole weeks, I could have fixed everything and be working on the next few countries by now. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 3344 Registered: 02-2007 |
Banks got their gift from the taxpayers in less than a week. The Bush administration understood the "urgency" of the situation and acted. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9025 Registered: 12-2003 |
Geez, Chuckles, what can I do to get back in your favor?! You apparently haven't been reading the forum for very long, or closely, I've been on this tack all my life and it has always echoed through my fingers onto this board. Been on the Non-Detroit side, mostly, but my tune hasn't changed one bit...and no amount of derogatory use of the term Conspiracy Theorist will derail me from my quest! Cheers As for 'dealing' with China...heh...anything President Obama does will be seen as a war action. Of course, THEY have been warring on us economically for years. I said it before and will repeat, only a Communist can view labor as a weapon, they pulled the greatest economic Judo move EVER, turning our nation's strength into an unbelievable liability. There is no turning back...no UN-doing this carefully assembled series of decisions and actions that were DELIBERATELY done to destroy the world's economy and send the bulk of the world's true wealth to that top 1% of the population. There is only preparing for the worst! Be much more of this to come...I can just feel it. This is the setup for that New World Order they have always lusted after...where Orwell's 1984 becomes real life. Can't nobody convince me otherwise! | ||
Sturge Member Username: Sturge Post Number: 276 Registered: 05-2007 |
I could agree with the Georgia guidestones in a sense, however, the population cap is crazy low. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4149 Registered: 10-2003 |
I feel the same way as Chuckles. Any of you ever began talking with a stranger, and you're going along rather favorably and you believe the person to be intelligent and rational for the first two or three minutes, but you realize almost immediately after that elapsed bit of time that you're talking to someone that's absolutely bat-shit crazy? Sometimes, it takes a few meetings to find this out, but you always do. Yeah, that's how I just felt, and it's really quite a let-down. lol | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9027 Registered: 12-2003 |
It is a risk to approach the razor's edge into insanity, but how else will I know if I've considered everything?! I've always said I'd lose my mind if I could find God...pretty worthy trade, I figure. You look at data points and think you see everything, I merely look at the gaps between them and postulate what might be missed. Oddly enough, some of my wildest notions have turned out to be real and true. Kinda freaks me out when a gut instinct turns out to be right. I never said I enjoyed this role, I was just born into it. It's rarely dull, though. | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 540 Registered: 07-2008 |
Soros and Volcker on the economy: "NEW YORK (Reuters) – Renowned investor George Soros said on Friday the world financial system has effectively disintegrated, adding that there is yet no prospect of a near-term resolution to the crisis. Soros said the turbulence is actually more severe than during the Great Depression, comparing the current situation to the demise of the Soviet Union. He said the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in September marked a turning point in the functioning of the market system. "We witnessed the collapse of the financial system," Soros said at a Columbia University dinner. "It was placed on life support, and it's still on life support. There's no sign that we are anywhere near a bottom." His comments echoed those made earlier at the same conference by Paul Volcker, a former Federal Reserve chairman who is now a top adviser to President Barack Obama. Volcker said industrial production around the world was declining even more rapidly than in the United States, which is itself under severe strain. "I don't remember any time, maybe even in the Great Depression, when things went down quite so fast, quite so uniformly around the world," Volcker said." | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 762 Registered: 04-2006 |
Quote What should the Obama administration be doing that it isn't doing now? End of Quote Privatize SMART and DDOT and all other public transit systems that no longer serve any useful purpose. The SMART property tax is nothing more then a charity donation to pay for what our state government should pay for but won't. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 619 Registered: 12-2007 |
Trainman, you are truly the CCBatson of the Detroit section!  O. | ||
W_chicago Member Username: W_chicago Post Number: 101 Registered: 01-2008 |
Life after capitalism | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1246 Registered: 10-2003 |
The worst recession of the last 100 years (not depression) was owned by Jimmy Carter. It was solved by Ronald Reagan doing the exact opposite of what our current president is doing. The worst depression of the last 100 years was owned by Frankie Roosevelt who after years of doing what the current president is doing, still maintained double-digit unemployment rates. The current economic problem was created in part by a Republican congress that chose to spend like pigs at a trough and a Republican President that let them do it. It was also created by a democratic administration that forced banks to provide loans to people that were unable to repay them and a lame republican congress and administration that did nothing to resolve the problem except going "on the record" as objecting. The solution to the current problem is not that difficult: Short-term, reduce the corporate tax rate significantly (the highest in the world) to increase investment and reduce the personal tax rate significantly to increase consumer spending (unlike the blazing $13 per week provided in the Democrat spending bill). When Reagan did this, tax revenues increased. The dems like to poo poo this fact by raising the spector of the deficit increase at that time which was caused by funding for Reagan's defeat of the Ruskies in the cold war and the payoff to the dems for this spending (personal pork spending for the dems). The present path will make things uglier before they become pretty (although the press will portray any slight good news as a success for our new socialist leader). The only other key to success will be to: Avoid privatizing SMART and DDOT and all other public transit systems and to maintain the SMART property tax. Hide your money under the mattress during the interim. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5321 Registered: 06-2004 |
too bad the majority of the sub-prime loans that are defaulting aren't those that were "forced" by a Democratic administration see, Californians with a $700,000 annual income don't qualify for those low income mortgages, even if their credit rating makes them "sub-prime" | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1247 Registered: 10-2003 |
What are you talking about? | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 763 Registered: 04-2006 |
Quote The only other key to success will be to: Avoid privatizing SMART and DDOT and all other public transit systems and to maintain the SMART property tax. Quote There is a fight to keep over $100 Million per year in operating funds from the sale of state fuel taxes collected by the Michigan Department of Transportation MDOT. The supporters of the SMART propety tax want to abolish this funding and they are doing so by forced public bus reductions without a vote. The SMART 285 Middlebelt bus route was never paid for with property taxes but was paid for by revenue sharing among communities that support the millage. This revenue sharing is being slashed every year along with even further bus service reductions since November 2006. See all the facts about the SMART property tax in DETROIT LINKS under Trainman's save the... I'm in favor of keeping the property tax but this tax cannot stand alone and needs strong industry and state support to best serve the public as a whole. Otherwise, it will never amount to more then a charity to get grandma to the doctor's office or if raised could exploit the working poor with regressive taxes that higher income workers can more easily avoid paying. For example, if Wayne County residents pay a county sales tax that other counties do not pay, a higher income person can move to Livingston county to avoid paying this tax but a lower income person can not afford to move. That is why the city of Detroit is poor. Thus, we should avoid raising taxes in Wayne county to bail out DDOT by replacing revenue sharing but instead get industry supports and work to maintain low income funds from our state and federal government. And YES, SMART and DDOT are indeed outdated and there are companies that do want to take their place and can at a lower cost. This is exactly what made Michigan's economy boom in the 1900's. Remember, Henry Ford? Detroit today needs the Henry Ford of mass transit by moving people cheaply, safe and on time. Other cities are doing this and Detroit can too. So, if SMART can not shape up and come back to Livonia then they should ship out by capping thier property tax. Irish_mafia, thanks for the reply because privatizing SMART and DDOT is not the best answer but filling up the buses with passengers by protesting the 2 Billion dollar MDOT/SEMCOG freeways IS indeed the answer to keep existing money. So, please support my website or publicly challenge it to get the public transit that we deserve as hard working taxpayers. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3807 Registered: 04-2006 |
Reducing taxes will do little to nothing to plug the big gap between what we are producing and what we are now consuming. We are overproducing because we aren't consuming as much as we were in recent years. We are not consuming as much because we are worried about losing our sources of income, or have already lost our sources of income. The lost jobs are most pronounced in the construction and manufacturing sectors, which is why the recently passed stimulus package directs spending to create construction and manufacturing jobs. Ronald Reagan, yes he had a bad economy problem on his hands, but his problem was not of the magnitude of what we face now. Furthermore, it's highly unlikely that his tax cuts had anything to do with spurring the economy, since people who don't have jobs don't pay taxes. It's much more likely that the only thing his tax cuts accomplished at the federal level is drive up the deficit. In 1980, a weak American economy could be offset by a strong economy in another part of the world. Today, there is nowhere to offset since everybody else is as bad or worse off than we are. This includes China, where 20 million people were just recently laid off because we are no longer buying their exports. Finally, it's fair to critique the stimulus plan, but it's absurd to claim that Obama isn't doing enough. No president in the history of this country has pushed through Congress a bill so large and so important after being in office for less than 30 days. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 764 Registered: 04-2006 |
Iheartthed The answer is a tax increase and not a decrease in southeast Michigan according to some regional leaders. We are told that mass transit taxes generate job growth. This would be true if industry paid for these taxes with decent paying jobs. But, unfortunately the new regional authority being created will bail out the city of Detroit with suburban taxes if not challenged by the public with the facts first to improve our existing public bus service. The issues are being confused with the facts as evidenced by the fact that Wal-Mart in Livonia should pay. Livonia residents were told that the state will not pay for SMART. But, we had NO leadership at all in Lansing so we did not vote out SMART but instead voted NO for Wal-Mart. You see it is all the fault of Wal-Mart because they dump cheap Chinese junk on the market with big trucks clogging the freeways and then refuse to pay their fair share of taxes and rely on the government and then Mr. Hertel will not come to Livonia city hall to debate me on Channels 2, 4, 7, 50 and 56. Yes, we can fix the economy in southeast Michigan if you all support my website in DETROIT LINKS called Trainman’s save the… But do we really want to? |
