 
Dtowncitylover
Member
Username: Dtowncitylover
Post Number: 488
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 3:10 pm: |    |
Yes, but skinless in more popular. Note they have to explain what natural casing is. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2051
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 3:16 pm: | |
"The neighborhoods you mention (Bridgeport, Chinatown, etc.) are tiny and not at all representative of the South Side. They're basically fringe extensions of the yuppie core neighborhoods."
Ask the typical resident of Bridgeport, Armour Square, or Pilsen if they're a yuppie, and you'd better prepare for a fist fight. No, those near South Side and Southwest Side neighborhoods are mostly white-ethnic and/or Latino blue-collar, with some professionals moving in here and there.
Sure, life is not so good at 43rd and South King Dr., but there are plenty of good areas on the South Side.
"And no, the South Side isn't particularly livable, walkable, or transit-friendly, at least not more so than Detroit."
Sorry, MUCH more so. A lot of South Side Chicago is safer at all hours, and better served by transit, including frequent bus lines (many of which actually run all night). I have walked blocks and blocks of the South and Southwest Sides with no incident at midnight, 1 a.m., 2 a.m., etc. There are stores, markets, bakeries, restaurants and bars on every commercial strip... and bars and sandwich shops on many corners, back in the neighborhoods. I am referring to Bridgeport, Canaryville, Hyde Park, Brighton Park, McKinley Park, Archer Heights, Beverly, Mt. Greenwood, etc.
"Livable? It has comparable crime and schools to Detroit. Walkable? No more than Detroit, and it isn't safe to walk most parts. Transit-friendly? There are two rapid transit lines. One runs in the middle of a freeway, surrounded by projects, the other runs through an urban wasteland west of Jackson Park..."
See above. You forgot about the Orange Line, which serves Chinatown, Bridgeport and the Southwest Side. And schools in Chicago are better than they were a decade ago; they have been singled out for that. Meanwhile, DPS is in a quagmire, with the exception of a few favored schools. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8451
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 3:19 pm: | |
I'll never forget that a guy from Chicago magazine once said his favorite chicago style pizza was pizza papalis and they practically ran him out of town |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2052
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 3:20 pm: | |
And talk about misconceptions: it should be noted that crime stats are significantly HIGHER in Lakeview, which is where the Cubs play on the North Side (Wrigley Field), than in Bridgeport/Armour Square on the South Side where the White Sox play (US Cellular Field). |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2053
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 3:24 pm: | |
"Yes, but skinless in more popular. Note they have to explain what natural casing is."
Ah gee, you're right, Dtowncitylover. Sorry.
Rah rah Detroit! We can do no wrong! We're better than those other bad old Midwestern cities! Why? 'Cause we were born here, that's why! Rah rah! Yaaaaaay!!!
Excuse me while I puke. |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 557
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 3:47 pm: | |
Retroit,
As an 800-lb. Hispanic gorilla, I take offense at your characterization, and assumption that I must be black. j/k 
Actually, I believe that the Hispanic population of Chicago is more like 1/3, though I don't know how "hispanic" is defined for census purposes, since it is really more a cultural than a racial term.
Retroit's characterization of the difference in segregation between CHI and DET is pretty correct, but I do see more diversity within many neighborhoods here than I do anywhere in Detroit. My own is currently a mix of Polish, hispanic (mostly Mexican and Dominican) and other white. Logan is a mix of hispanic and gentrifying white. Crawford is righy about the heavier locations of new immigrants.
Kryptonite,
It is true that Detroit (and Hamtramck, obviously) has a very wide variety of immigrant nationalities, but they make aup a very small percentage of the population - something in the middle single digits, I think, if that. While not a huge fraction in Chicago, it is a lot bigger than that.
Chicago public schools overall aren't great, but they're lots better than DPS.
Rode down to ca. 52nd and State for work last week and one woman at the police station I went to said I had just ridden through the 'hood. After countless bike trips through the east side of Detroit to get to downtown and midtown or riding through Highland Park, it didn't seem bad at all. Clearly not the worst there is.
I need to explore the south side more.
Fury,
When you puke, make sure you do it on a Japanese car - that way, they people who have the very same attitude about American cars (instead of Detroit) can blame the car
O. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2339
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 4:46 pm: | |
Fury, good posts, you're tossing some ice cold reality around, and that isn't very popular. Don't take it personally, the cloustered just hate reading the truth. Stick to your guns.
I do like the dogs in Chicago though. Even if the "snap" is missing. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3752
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 4:54 pm: | |
quote:It is nearly non-existent in NYC.
I wouldn't say that... |
Scooter2k7
Member
Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 208
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 6:53 pm: | |
Detroit wins Stanley Cups, Chicago does not. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 485
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 7:51 pm: | |
Nice try, Philbert. Keep trying to cover your B.S. Pilsen is now on the South Side? West Roosevelt is South Side? Alrighty...
Whether or not the Census data is accurate, there is no question that their methodology is consistent across cities. Therefore, any undercounts that apply to Chicago would also apply to Detroit and all other cities.
Neighborhoods on the South Side are not "flipping to Latino", LOL. Where are all those Latinos on 95th Street? How about the "Dirty 100's?" Must be hiding or invisible. The South Side of Chicago is, with a few exceptions, overwhelmingly black, or is shifting to black; the same thing that's been going on for 50 years.
The last ethnic whites on the fringes of the South Side left over the last few years (Mount Greenwood, East Beverly). There are still whites in West Beverly, which would make it (along with U of Chicago environs) the only white neighborhood on the South Side. If you want to be technical, there are whites in Hegewisch, but that's basically on another planet.
So yeah, the South Side of Chicago as at least as high % black and at least as low % immigrant as Detroit. I can break out Census Tract data if you want.
The neighborhoods I think you're referencing aren't even South Side; they're Southwest Side. Bridgeport and Little Village are along the narrow Archer Avenue corridor, which is a largely Mexican corridor between two rail tracks, separating the black ghettos of the South and West sides. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2058
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 10:49 pm: | |
Anything south of Madison is technically South Side. Bridgeport, Armour Square and Chinatown are considered to be near South, as is Pilsen. Not Southwest. What is Canaryville? It's certainly not in the (not so narrow, by the way) Archer Avenue corridor.
Back of the Yards is mostly Latino and that's pretty definitely South Side. The East Side (which is far south, but not as far as Hegewisch) has a mix of Latinos and ethnic whites. Mt. Greenwood has no Irish anymore? News to me.
By the way, Bridgeport is slowly gentrifying and McKinley Park (one of the better-kept secrets in Chicago) is next. |
Newlaster
Member
Username: Newlaster
Post Number: 96
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 11:44 pm: | |
One thing I like better about Detroit:
There aren't 20 surveillance cameras on every corner for my "safety."
One thing I like better about Chicago:
When I go "out" for the evening, I NEVER have to worry about a car/ride/drinking and driving, etc. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 2068
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 11:50 pm: | |
Hold on, wait wait wait.
Bridgeport is yuppie now? ROFL. Man, y'all need to visit Bridgeport and Canaryville and call 10 people on the street yuppies. Betcha get punched 11 times. |
W_chicago
Member
Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 12:06 am: | |
I've been exploring Chicago via Google Earth. (I know, it's not the real thing, but it still gives a good picture of what the neighborhoods look like). Many neighborhoods honestly look like Detroit if it continued to grow... with single-family homes interspersed with appartment buildings, commercial corridors, etc. Looking at Chicago's neighborhoods, I couldn't help but think of Seward St back in Detroit... that area probably being the closet thing to Chicago we have. I think Detroit can have more resemblance to Chicago in the future... especially considering how much empty land there is in the city, there is plenty of room for infill. If transit is concentrated in the in the center of the city (the regional transit plan has calls for too much in the burbs and not enough in the urban core) I think we would see tremendeous growth. Especially considering both the national trend back to the city, and the shortages of oil. There are a lot of other factors, but I think it can happen. |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 885
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 12:12 am: | |
Fury has pretty much everything right, no need to repeat. I just will add Bridgeport? Yuppie? What? And even beyond that, who cares? People with money living and paying taxes in your city is always a plus, provided they don't bring other baggage with them. Maybe they drink a lot and pee on the sidewalk after a Cubs game, but they generally have good jobs and spend money. That's good for the economy.
I will say a Coney is vastly superior to a Chicago dog. As a Chicagoan, I've given the Chicago dog its fair shot. Over and over. I should like them, right? Its a Chicago staple. I just don't like them at all. All those veggies? And that celery salt and relish? BARF. I can eat coney after coney (and I usually do after a night in Detroit), but downing just one Chicago dog is always torture. I've pretty much given up. I'd rather just eat a plain dog on a bun than a Chicago dog....
But Gino's East makes up for the bad dogs |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 214
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 12:15 am: | |
go ahead Crawford break out census data.
Remember you also said the West Side is not heavily immigrant or Latino.
Just one neighborhood out of 77, Little Village. The Southwest side. Population 92,000 and 85% Latino. Just that one neighborhoods puts the area's percent Latino above.
The South Side is heavily Latino whether you like it or not.
And I was questioning the number of immigrants in Chicago with which you brought up the 2007 census estimates to try to invalidate my claim. Remember you said 590,000? I said census estimates were off. You knew that though you threw out another response. lol.
chip chip! |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 917
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 2:08 am: | |
Chicago=Toll Roads
Detroit=Free Roads
I love it here, Yet if I had to move to another city Chicago would be it. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2636
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 2:38 am: | |
So inevitably like tax season, full moons, and menstrual cycles yet another Detroit/Chicago thread pops up again. Can we all just agree that they are both cold and flat Midwestern cities with crime problems and the habit of having its residents compare themselves to other bigger cities? Yes? No? Ah, who am I kidding? Let the madness continue and here I'll even contribute, both cities have terrible basketball teams, though the Bulls beat the Pistons tonight. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 590
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 2:59 am: | |
Melody, it's not impossible to own a car. And visitors don't have to pay outrageous fees either. It's just that they prefer to park in the heart of downtown and find it fun to pay high prices.
For residents, while, the city does charge a yearly parking registration free, I know plenty who don't pay it. There's numerous areas around North River and Gold Coast (higher density areas) where there's always open spots that are free. I've also let my car sit for weeks in CTA garages and left without paying anything or at the worst $15 for that duration if I left during commute hour
I don't see why people find parking in Chicago so difficult. It's no different from living in Ann Arbor. Actually...I've found Chicago far more lenient when it came to ticketing.
So what, some days you have to walk a whole city block to your car. The downside to living in a great urban environment.
BTW, the Pizzapapalis comment is true. I really miss it.
(Message edited by wolverine on February 11, 2009) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3755
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 8:31 am: | |
quote:So inevitably like tax season, full moons, and menstrual cycles yet another Detroit/Chicago thread pops up again. Can we all just agree that they are both cold and flat Midwestern cities with crime problems and the habit of having its residents compare themselves to other bigger cities? Yes? No? Ah, who am I kidding? Let the madness continue and here I'll even contribute, both cities have terrible basketball teams, though the Bulls beat the Pistons tonight.
Much truth to this response and I'll just add two things: 1) What fun would this board be if we didn't knock Chicago off of its holy pedestal every so often? and 2) the Pistons and Bulls are a great allegory for Detroit and Chicago -- Both are storied programs with multiple championships, both going through a current slump, and the Bulls attract more attention on the national stage than the Pistons. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2060
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 9:25 am: | |
" What fun would this board be if we didn't knock Chicago off of its holy pedestal every so often?"
Evidently YOU perceive that Chicago is on some sort of "holy pedestal." You perceive a rivalry that isn't there. Chicago outstrips Detroit in every way -- again, the two cities aren't in the same league when you consider all quality of life factors for urban areas. The population comparison alone negates the so-called "rivalry" before any other comparison is considered.
And, Detroit's population NEVER approached Chicago's, not even in the Motor City's heyday (1940s and 1950s).
Funny, many Detroit-area residents think Chicago is a rival to Detroit, but if you ask any Chicagoan if they perceive Detroit as a rival, they will look mystified.
In California terms, it is like comparing Fresno to San Diego. Get it?
No, Detroit matches up better, in terms of being a rival, to Cleveland, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, or Cincinnati.
In fact, Detroit is much like Cleveland, but without the charm. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:06 am: | |
Nah, Detroit is more like Philadelphia -- always underrated. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3756
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:28 am: | |
>Fury13
As always, worshiping at the alter in the temple of Chicago. People on this forum fall into one of two categories: Detroit cheerleaders or Chicago cheerleaders. You sir are obviously a member of the latter.
Honestly, I could care less if Chicago views itself comparatively to Detroit. It really isn't Chicago's decision of to whom they are compared. But the reality is that Chicago is most compared to Detroit, whether positively or negatively. And for good reason.
1) Chicago and Detroit share a region, 2) Chicago and Detroit are the two largest cities in said region, 3) Chicago and Detroit are the dominant economies of the region, 4) migrants to Chicago and Detroit tended to come from the same regions, 5) Chicago and Detroit's peak population are closer than you give credit, 6) Chicago and Detroit both hit their peak populations in the same decade, 7) Chicago and Detroit both have large black populations (Chicago has the largest African American neighborhood in America; Detroit the blackest major city in America), 8) Both cities known for crime, 9) Both cities have history of urban decay, 10) Inhabitants of both cities tend to say "pop" over "soda". |
Kryptonite
Member
Username: Kryptonite
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 11:09 am: | |
Good comparison Iheart, both cities also generate a lot of jazz and blues, both were highly industrial, both were important ports, etc. The immigrant pools are very similar: black, white southerners, Polish, Hungarian, Middle Eastern, etc. All of the formerly heavily industrial Great Lakes cities have much of the same in common. Chicago is the most fortunate theses days and has not suffered the terrible decline that other industrial Midwestern cities have suffered.
Chicago appears to be thriving while Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Milwaukee, Toledo, St. Louis, Akron, and lately Indianapolis and Dayton are desperately trying to address the terrible loss of jobs.
All of the cities have their unique characters but all also have much in common. Chicago has it's problems, Detroit has it's problems, both have their charm and attractions.
Much of it amounts to how you choose to perceive Detroit. This is a Detroit blog and the focus of the threads. Trying to make it a Chicago pep rally is not going to gather a lot of steam. And negative criticism of Detroit will not go over well at the same time, most of the locals here are very positive about Detroit. If people don't like that, the hell with them, there are people that love Detroit and this is their forum. And god bless them all, Detroit needs supporters. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2061
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 11:10 am: | |
Pfft, I can see the Philly comparison. That works for me.
IhearttheD, yeah I like Chicago. But Detroit is my hometown and I like it too. I'm just realistic, that's all (which some might categorize as pessimistic). Detroit has many positives (NOBODY brought up music, which Detroit excels at in multiple genres), but comparing Detroit to Chicago is a losing situation. Let's work on this tired, gritty, incredibly flawed and decimated city that we have here, plug away at improving it, and in 50-60 years we might have a vibrant, livable, safe city once again.
But you, I know, will just keep on drinkin' that Detroit Kool-Aid... |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2062
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 11:13 am: | |
Kryptonite:
Rah, rah!
(Yawn...) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3757
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 11:37 am: | |
quote:IhearttheD, yeah I like Chicago. But Detroit is my hometown and I like it too. I'm just realistic, that's all (which some might categorize as pessimistic). Detroit has many positives (NOBODY brought up music, which Detroit excels at in multiple genres), but comparing Detroit to Chicago is a losing situation. Let's work on this tired, gritty, incredibly flawed and decimated city that we have here, plug away at improving it, and in 50-60 years we might have a vibrant, livable, safe city once again.
But you, I know, will just keep on drinkin' that Detroit Kool-Aid...
I think many of you have a misunderstanding of the definition of compare.
com⋅pare
–verb (used with object)
1. to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences: to compare two pieces of cloth; to compare the governments of two nations.
Please note that two objects do not have to be in exactly the same state to be worthy of comparison. Detroit and Chicago are often compared because they share a lot of similarities, from the way the cities streets are laid out to their very history (both are the largest cities of states made from the former Michigan territory... of which Detroit was once the capital.) How many major cities in America share an avenue? Especially one as famous as Michigan Avenue... Detroit and Cleveland don't. Nor do Detroit and Pittsburgh, or Detroit and Buffalo.
Comparing Detroit and Chicago is not to say that there aren't some things that are different about the two; obviously differences exist. Nor is it to say that Chicago isn't a more vibrant city than Detroit currently is. That much is obvious, so what is the point in constantly repeating it?
So if that's Kool-aid drinking then pour me another glass for the next round. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 741
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 1:29 pm: | |
Amazing this thread was able to stay on topic..... I like what I have seen here and it helps me understand Detroit's neighbor to the west a great deal more. I was really unaware of how populated or popular the South/southwest parts of Chicago really was. The tribune tower is really neat. Check out this site I just found:
clicky
The Architecture is something that really caught my eye in Chicago. Mixed among the many modern highrises, you can still find the older buildings with the early century themes and designs. I particularly liked the Drake Building that sits next to the river.
Honestly, when getting into Chicago I was hoping to find many more historically themed buildings than I could see from my car. I knew they were in there, but I never really found a Penobscott or Guardian building that drew the eye likein Detroit. I imagine Chicago has many, but I was unable to scour the entire Downtown in two days. |
Detroits_own
Member
Username: Detroits_own
Post Number: 62
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 5:36 pm: | |
"Funny, many Detroit-area residents think Chicago is a rival to Detroit, but if you ask any Chicagoan if they perceive Detroit as a rival, they will look mystified."
I think the fans chanting "Detroit Sucks" at various Bulls', Blackhawks', WHite sox's and Bears' games might disagree, they do that for anybody else. They feel SOMETHING for us even if it's not rivalry and the just they just enjoy looking down on us.
As Michael Wilbon said "I"m from Chicago and thats what we do, dump on people from Detroit" |
Young_detroiter
Member
Username: Young_detroiter
Post Number: 67
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 7:11 pm: | |
As much as we Detroiters may or may not envy Chicago, there is a reason why they remain the third largest American city; and why Chicagoland "residents" have a collective identity that extends for a hundred miles outside of the city.
That being said, there is absolutely no reason that Detroit should not have rebounded from its half-century old collapse. While I do not fancy that climate, Detroit is strategically located on a beautiful international border.
Detroit is a Mecca of sort for this entire region. Detroit is the "second" home of many Ohioans (i.e. from Toledo) and Canadians. Why not embrace our cultures and shared histories. What is stopping Detroit-Windsor becoming a world-class, international destination to visit and live?
Why are not Windsor and Detroit sister cities?
Why must I use Toronto as Chicago as reference points when I travel internationally, and sometimes even domestically? |
Glowblue
Member
Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 157
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 7:45 pm: | |
One of the things that ravaged many industrial cities in the Midwest and Northeast was the "merger mania" that consolidated huge companies into even huger companies, eliminating corporate headquarters that provided thousands of jobs and paid millions in taxes (as an aside, these mergers rarely add value to the combined companies, and serve mainly to eiminate competition and concentrate wealth into fewer hands, so spare me any capitalist moralizing). Small cities like Dayton were hit particularly hard by this. Large cities like Chicago fared better, but even the Windy City is well past its heyday in terms of national and global influence. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 2069
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:04 pm: | |
I lived in Chicago for 3 years and live in NYC now and honestly one of the most irritating aspects of both cities is their tendency to spit on perceived inferiors.
Chicago spits on Detroit, and New York spits on everyone, right or wrong.
I read a blog posting where someone from New York called Wyoming part of the Midwest, and when called on it "Wyoming is not part of the midwest," the response was "To New Yorkers, it is."
Honestly, jump in the fucking river. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 487
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 12:51 am: | |
It's obvious that the Chicago boosters are either complete newcomers, or feel feel they have to trash Detroit by trying to manufacture differences.
Bridgeport in 2009 is a neighborhood of working class white ethnic toughs? LOL, 40 years ago this would be an accurate statement. It's Chinese and Mexican nowadays, with a sprinkling of yuppies.
The fact is that MOST of Chicago (the South and West Sides) is basically indistingishable from Detroit. These areas are not more diverse than Detroit, and they don't have more immigrants. Now Chicago, as a whole, is obviously more diverse and has more immigrants, but this is concentrated in the remaining 30-35% of the city.
And even the city as a whole has similarities.
White flight and declining population also afflicts Chicago. In fact, Chicago has (numerically) lost more people than Detroit since 2000. The fact is that ALL American central cities suffer somewhat from the effects of sprawl and suburbanization.
Philbert wants the Census data, so I'll oblige. Looking at an roughly Detroit-sized portion of Chicago on the South Side (23 of 77 Community Areas), I come up with 81.7% black, 8.4% white and 6.3% Latino. These numbers are almost identical to Detroit.
So yeah, most of Chicago is comparable to most of Detroit. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 429
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 1:39 am: | |
Um... let's see.
Chicago = WAY better urban standard of living (i.e., mass transit, gentrification, trendy bars, etc.)
Detroit = WAY better musical legacy.
Did I miss anything? |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 430
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 1:53 am: | |
BTW, the Chicagoans whom I've known and befriended?
They've ALL been more positive, supportive, and encouraging when it comes to Detroit than many, many SE Michigan natives. That goes for Detroiters AND suburbanites alike. They think our proximity to Canada, the cultural gems (i.e., Motown Museum), and the nightlife are pretty unique, and they are intrigued.
Then again, that's true of most of the Midwesterners I know. The Pittsburghers had a BLAST when they were here 3 years ago for SBXL. Indeed, in undergrad down South and when traveling in distant parts of the country or abroad, the "Midwestern industrial cities" bond has been HUGE in my experience. It's like I'm on the same wavelength with those folks, and there's a lot less of the cultural translation that goes along with trying to get to know people from other regions.
The only people who have been nasty and mean about the D in my experience are East Coasters. The only East Coaster I know who likes Detroit and doesn't make fun of it is my DC native college best friend. She loves Coney Islands and wishes she could ship Lafayette brick by brick to her street in MD. But most of the people... no, make that ALL of the folks who I've met in undergrad, traveling around, and here @ U-M from Maine down through North Carolina are less than enthused about Detroit. And that's putting it mildly.
People down South either are intrigued or think the city's appalling... but usually, that sentiment goes for "all those dirty Yankee cities... why don't y'all stay up there, instead of coming down South with those Yankee attitudes?" Same with West Coasters, although I've found that I get auto street cred from some SoCal folks.
BTW, you get AUTOMATIC street cred ANYWHERE in the British Isles if they know you're from Detroit. It's actually a good deal... and a little bit of a culture shock when you're in Dublin or Oxford and being from Detroit has none of the stateside connotations.
I digress. My point -- the folks hardest on Detroit that aren't complete twits are by and large SE Michiganders. Not Chicagoans. Chicagoans are some of the coolest people in the nation. Love that city, and love its residents... wish we could have the same laid-back confidence someday. |
Newlaster
Member
Username: Newlaster
Post Number: 97
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 2:36 am: | |
Many people here have made a point that the less wealthy areas of Chicago are like Detroit in some way.
This is untrue. To be sure, Chicago is a horribly race-seperated and classist city.
But there are many middle-class areas dissimilar to anything in Detroit. There are also many stable, nice areas on the south and the west sides (in addition, of course, to the rich opulence of downtown and the north side).
But there are some neighborhoods that are over 99% black and some neighborhoods where gang-violence and gun deaths are an everyday part of life. Do you think the kids in these neighborhoods have the same opportunities as the kids in Lincoln Park?
I'd generally walk through the worst areas of Detroit before I would the worst areas of Chicago.
Still though, the biggest difference between Detroit 'ghettos' and Chicago 'ghettos' is population density.
Chicago's ghettos are dense concentrations of people and poverty and there are businesses and traffic, etc.
Detroit's ghettos are largely ghotstowns. Abandoned anarchistic zones where businesses are few and far between.
__
And as for Bridgeport. It's generally considered a middle-class neighborhood. East Bridgeport is probably mostly Chinese at this point where West Bridgeport mostly Mexican. There is still a significant Irish population there and a HUGE, growing young artist community of all races (not too dissimilar to the demographics of pre-gentrification Wicker Park.)
(Message edited by newlaster on February 12, 2009) |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4112
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 3:05 am: | |
English, that has been the exact opposite of my personal experiences. My experience with Chicagoans have not been pleasant, and they've always seemed like some of the most arrogant and insecure folks about their city I've ever met. Many of the East Coasters I've met enjoy Detroit because it's exotic to them, so different than what they are used to. Chicagoans have always seem to believe that their city is the best thing since sliced bread; their devotion in believing this is more like religous than it is about civic pride. I'm sorry if I offend, but this is how I've personally experienced Chicagoans. It's as if nothing exists outside of Chicago until you hit the coasts, with them. |
Urbanophile
Member
Username: Urbanophile
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 10:07 am: | |
I can shed some light on Chicago. Firstly, people who come to Chicago, typically meet the northsider profile person. These are often people who moved to the city from small towns and cities all over the Midwest, or from boring suburban areas. It's been said that contempt for where you came from is the signature attribute of the arriviste. I think that plays a huge role in the attitude of northsiders to the rest of the Midwest.
The other thing you run into is the obnoxious trash talking sports fans. Those are the same in most passionate sports cities and shouldn't be taken seriously. |
Urbanophile
Member
Username: Urbanophile
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 10:11 am: | |
On the other hand, compliments by people who visited Detroit should be taken with a grain of salt as well. Visitors tend to be treated to the absolute best a city has to offer, bypassing little of the worst. This gives an incomplete perspective to say the least. Also, how many people visit a home then insult the occupant? We're trained to say nice things about people who have us over as guests. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 215
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 11:33 am: | |
crawford is guilty of what called gerrymandering, lol. except that you aren't doing it political gain. you are doing it becuase you have a chip on your shoulder that goes beyond chicago.
let me see, you include this but not that and on and on. well that could be the southwest side and not the southside, etc. 1/3 the city's land has most of the one million whites, under one million latinos, the asians and others. 1/3 the citiy's land mass would be 76 square miles and a population density of 26,315 people a square mile lol. wtf? sad. aren't you embarrassed? |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 435
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 2:32 pm: | |
Urbanophile -- a few of these folks have actually moved here from Chicago, including my paternal grandfather.
LMichigan -- I should add a disclaimer: these are *black* Chicagoans who are positive about Detroit. Black East Coasters who I know or are related to love to call Detroit a "country town" or "too slow" (New Yorkers), or "too dirty", "too ghetto" (DC/MD/VA) folks. Black Philadelphians in my experience have been cool, and I'm not close friends with any Bostonians.
I don't really talk to nonblack friends about Detroit unless the subject comes up, and even then, most of them are liberal and probably censoring their real thoughts.
Sorry, I should have made the racial differences clear. You get an entirely different interpretation of cities, regions, and even nations when you travel in this skin. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 743
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 3:25 pm: | |
Maybe we should just stick with Detroit as a subject. Adding another city to the train of though has only invited disaster.
Can't we all just agree to disagree.
Looking back over the 100+ posts, there have been four links posted. I posted one to a US City guide. Another was posted about Vienna Hot Dogs. A third explained to us the definition of "Compare". And the other one linked to a page about Daniel Burnahm.
All these posts about who is right and who is wrong under the pretense of opinion. Instead of arguing, why don't you guys back up these comments with facts? |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 574
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 3:42 pm: | |
Shreve,
Don't you know that this kind of silly discusison is what the internet was created for? Well, that and pr0n.
O. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3762
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4:39 pm: | |
>English
I totally agree with your distinction between black and non-black Chicagoans. In my experience, black Chicagoans tend to like Detroit. The people I have met from Philly, despite ethnic background, also tend to be a lot more positive on Detroit than others.
Black New Yorkers give mixed reviews on Detroit. A lot of them like the party and community vibe in Detroit, but New Yorkers of any color typically don't like anything that isn't New York. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 950
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 5:55 pm: | |
If anyone would like to see racial demographic maps of Chicago (& Detroit):
This map shows neighborhoods defined by black, white, and hispanic:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/ su/maps/chicityeth2000.jpg
This map shows neighborhood defined by black and white. You can also view maps for 100 other cities including Detroit:
http://www4.uwm.edu/eti/integr ation/chicago.htm
Here are simplified, compact maps of black & latino areas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F ile:Black_chicago1.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F ile:Latino_chicago1.gif
Here's an interactive map that can be manipulated to show the different races, as well as rates of poverty, unemployment, etc. It also covers Detroit:
http://www.dataplace.org/map/i ndex.html?cid=21559¢erX=-9 770371.852180399¢erY=51223 71.006256746&zoomlevel=4 |
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