 
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 4461
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 10:56 am: |    |
Most forumers think that Livonia sucks because of its racial representation and booted out the SMART bus transportation. Yes Livonia sucks of being a suburb without a ethnically diverse people. Livonia sucks because they tread black visitors with their police escorts. Livonia sucks just because it being a "WHITES ONLY" city, fulfilling their pleasantville atmosphere. Twenty years from now, Livonia will not be a whitest suburbs in the Metro-Detroit area it will be filled not only with 10,000 blacks coming from Detroit, Redford TWP. and Westland, but also ethnically diversed people. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3741
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 11:01 am: | |
Of course if you selectively eliminate the parts of Detroit that aren't like Livonia, then you'll come to the conclusion that Detroit is a lot like Livonia. But the parts of Detroit that aren't like Livonia are significant to Detroit, and is something that Livonia can't replicate, so the comparison is extremely flawed.
Livonia has no infrastructure in place to benefit from a public transit network, nor does it have a convenient way of building that necessary infrastructure. At least Troy has a train station. Livonia isn't even served by a bus line. If the car disappeared tomorrow, Livonia would disintegrate. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 721
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 11:45 am: | |
Danny,
My house is nearly surrounded by blacks in Livonia, so you are wrong. And SMART, wrong again. The vast majority of Livonia wanted to keep SMART but we had no say in this matter.
The choices were
A. Merge SMART with DDOT and call it DARTA.
B. Have no SMART buses and let the Michigan Department of Transportation slash even more money from mass transit. |
Jman
Member
Username: Jman
Post Number: 233
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 11:50 am: | |
West_chicago states
"The suburban lifestyle is not something we can simply "respect," for it is at the expense of other peoples lives. The car-dependent, consumer-driven, resource intensive nature of suburbs lend them to be unsustainble by very nature. We see wars waged to ensure the oil that drives this lifestyle. Continuing the suburban way of life is road to self-destruction, as well as the destruction of everyone else."
I find this post and all the others that mention the evil car laughable and even hypocritical.
Where in the world did we get all of these evil automobiles. If it weren't for Detroit there would be no evil cars. There would be no wars as we would need no evil oil. There would be no evil suburbs. It was planned by turn of the century Detroit citizens to ruin the country by producing the automobile. If there had been no automobiles, chances are the "suburbs" would start at Grand Blvd.
Or, on the other hand, I like my car. It's 8 years old, takes me where I want to go and I enjoy my life. How bout you? |
Townonenorth
Member
Username: Townonenorth
Post Number: 787
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 12:03 pm: | |
The choices in Livonia were listed quite clearly on this article from the Detroit News:
Tuesday, June 7, 2005
quote:Livonia to hold vote on SMART
Council is expected to seek approval to drop bus service, call for tax for city fleet.
By Darren A. Nichols / The Detroit News
LIVONIA -- The City Council is expected to vote tonight to let city residents decide whether to drop out of Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation.
The proposal would impose a half-mill tax to fund a city bus service instead.
City leaders have been mulling the possibility of withdrawing Livonia from the SMART bus system for nearly two months.
Livonia resident Bernard Skotzke said the city should remove itself from the SMART system, because people are already overburdened with paying for services that most don't use.
"We are taxed incessantly to pay for Wayne County parks and the jail and we get very little in return from those taxes," said Skotzke, 65, who doesn't use SMART buses.
"Livonia can get along very well without being taxed to pay for bus services that do not provide service for most residents. The city will have a considerable amount of cash above and beyond what it will take to operate two or three buses in the city."
SMART links 28 Wayne County suburbs, plus Detroit, 22 areas in Oakland County and Macomb County. SMART service costs the owner of a $200,000 house about $60 a year in property taxes.
According to census figures in 2000, only 4 percent of Livonia households do not have a car and fewer than 1 percent use public transportation to get to work. The city's population is about 100,000.
Resident Eric Fitzpatrick, 40, is dubious about the proposal.
"The city would have to do a better job of convincing me that it would be a better way to go," said Fitzpatrick. "It seems hard to believe they will find savings. How is Livonia going to save money with its own infrastructure and whatever goes with creating a bus system in comparison to what's already in place?"
If Livonia drops out of the SMART network, it could lower its transportation tax and still have about $2.3 million to expand and upgrade its Livonia Community Transit system, which serves senior citizens. Tonight's meeting starts at 8 in the City Hall auditorium, 33000 Civic Center Drive.
About 32,000 people ride regular SMART buses daily throughout Metro Detroit.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/me tro/0506/07/B01-206420.htm
So Livonia has transportation for it's seniors huh? Curious. It's evident what choice that Livonia had. |
Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 1:02 pm: | |
quote:The choices in Livonia were listed quite clearly on this article from the Detroit News:
ONE choice. ONE subject. If transit is the ONLY thing you need, Livonia is not for you.
quote:So Livonia has transportation for it's seniors huh?
Yep - AND anyone that transfers from a DDOT bus.
It will take you to all the major employers, shopping areas and colleges, pretty much any place a SMART bus use to take you.
The problem(and probably the only thing I HATE about Livonia)is that Livonia residents, that are not senior citizens or disabled, are not allowed to use their bus system but non-residents can.
SMART sucked in Livonia, as does Livonia's bus system.
My oldest son chooses not to drive, but cannot (and could not with SMART unless he was first driven to a SMART stop 3 miles away from home, just to get to the college 2 miles further) get to Schoolcraft College or his place of employment but friends that come from other communities via DDOT can.
Yes. Livonia's transit sucks, but in general is a good community to live in.
Livonia is good place to raise a family, and/or to grow old in, and all are welcome.
It is not the island some are making it out to be. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3742
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 1:15 pm: | |
quote:If transit is the ONLY thing you need, Livonia is not for you.
So then Livonia isn't a good place for anyone? Who doesn't need transit?
The point is that Livonia doesn't have the ability to support anything except vehicular transportation. And I don't see this changing anytime soon. So while that was enough to thrive in the second half of 20th century America, I doubt that it will be enough to thrive in 21st century America. |
Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 1:34 pm: | |
quote:So then Livonia isn't a good place for anyone? Who doesn't need transit?
You know what I meant.
quote:The point is that Livonia doesn't have the ability to support anything except vehicular transportation.
I don't get your point. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3743
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 2:12 pm: | |
>I don't get your point.
When comparing Detroit to Livonia:
quote:If the car disappeared tomorrow, Livonia would disintegrate. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 2:24 pm: | |
quote:HamTragedy, I should have said multi-storied residential. The tall buildings in Troy are all office buildings. Thanks for pointing out my error. That doesn't have anything to do with anything either. Just because New York has a lot of people living in tall buildings, and New York is an urban city, it doesn't necessarily follow that all urban cities have to have people living in tall buildings. Hamtramck is an example of a dense, walkable, urban city in which an overwhelming majority of residents live either in single-family detached homes or in two-flats with one other tenant. Tall residential buildings can be built in a way that is "suburban" (the Brewster Projects are a good example), just like any other kind of residential building. It has more to do with the building's relationship to its surroundings than with the style of the building itself. |
Stosh
Member
Username: Stosh
Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 3:12 pm: | |
I know that I've had enough of the chair parking-space roulette in Hamtown. also enough of living in a 2 flat. Density is one thing, insanity is quite another issue.
There are a few sections of Detroit, and inner ring suburbs as well that have the density and potential shopping districts. Just need to add businesses that local residents will support.
It amazes me that local governments will bend over backwards to provide tax breaks to big businesses, and won't lift a finger to help the little guys that either are in, or want to be in business. Provide people IN the neighborhoods with assistance to open businesses.
Couple that with a police presence and you could have some walkable neighborhoods really quick. |
Baselinepunk
Member
Username: Baselinepunk
Post Number: 101
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 6:58 pm: | |
Livonia sucks. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 4465
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 9:00 pm: | |
Trainman,
Go look at the website from the 2000 Census and you will see that Livonia is the whitest suburbs in the Metro-Detroit.
There is no absolute truth so don't call me a liar. |
Deteamster
Member
Username: Deteamster
Post Number: 186
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 10:44 pm: | |
One of the biggest problems of this country are that people think they can "buy" and "move" to better education for their children.
Yes, buy a house in a rich ex-burb district full of rich white people and send your children to a school that looks like an airport terminal and then you're a good parent.
Parental involvement? A love of learning and scholarship? Who needs it...just buy a McMansion in the suburbs! Edumacation comes along with that territory.
I should know...my dear old dad tried that noise...move out to a "good" district and all will be well...shoot, I drank my way through high school anyway. Wasn't till good ol' WSU back in Detroit that I shaped up and became a regular old scholar.
Go figure!
PS
Livonia sucks. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 2217
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 10:53 pm: | |
Quote:
"So then Livonia isn't a good place for anyone? Who doesn't need transit?
The point is that Livonia doesn't have the ability to support anything except vehicular transportation. And I don't see this changing anytime soon. So while that was enough to thrive in the second half of 20th century America, I doubt that it will be enough to thrive in 21st century America."
Livonia started as a rail town. It actually has a major rail line right through the center. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 727
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 12:12 am: | |
Danny,
2000 was a very long time ago.
People are moving out of Detroit because of high Detroit Department of Transportation taxes for poor service and many other reasons.
Livonia homes are now much more affordable to many Detroit residents drawn to our city because of lower property tax rates.
But it won't be long before Livonia gets another chance to once again to pay county mass transit taxes, if we vote for the NEW Wayne, Oakland and Macomb county one half percent tax for transit operations and one half percent for the county road commissions starting next April with the creation of a NEW transit authority to replace SMART and DDOT.
This will be called a victory for mass transit and Michigan Tax Reform.
The public will be promised lower property taxes, more federal transit grants, faster bus and new train service and cost savings from not duplicating SMART and DDOT routes and new job growth.
If the many promises are kept then I'm in favor of this. But, DYer's do you think it is possible that the promises will be kept?
Or, will we see bus service reductions again if we don't raise the transit tax another one half percent? And will the road commission and schools and city council members want more money also? |
Jman
Member
Username: Jman
Post Number: 234
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 9:04 am: | |
Deteamster
"One of the biggest problems of this country are that people think they can "buy" and "move" to better education for their children."
I'll have to remember that. I guess I'm wasting my time worrying about the wars and the economy.
Deteamster
"Yes, buy a house in a rich ex-burb district full of rich white people and send your children to a school that looks like an airport terminal and then you're a good parent."
I asked my neighbors about being rich white people. One says he is not rich. He is white though. I bet he's lying to me. On the other side is Hispanic, He just stared at me. I went across the street to my AA neighbor but they weren't home. I'll get back to you on them.
Yes, the design of the school building has great influence on the quality of education.
Deteamster
"Parental involvement? A love of learning and scholarship? Who needs it...just buy a McMansion in the suburbs! Edumacation comes along with that territory."
Why would you assume that my children had no parental involvement? Why would you assume that my children had no love of learning and scholarship? I have re-read my posts here and I can find nothing that would give you that impression.
Deteamster
"I should know...my dear old dad tried that noise...move out to a "good" district and all will be well...shoot, I drank my way through high school anyway. Wasn't till good ol' WSU back in Detroit that I shaped up and became a regular old scholar.
Go figure!"
I applaud your Father's efforts but you know the old adage, you can lead a horse to water etc. I hope you have got the drinking problem under control. I'm glad you went to WSU. It's a fine school. I went there myself.
Deteamster
"PS
Livonia sucks."
I think I said that in an earlier post. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2330
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 10:15 am: | |
2000 census data, population density of:
Chicago: 12,750
Hamtramck: 10,900
Detroit: 6,855
San Fransisco:16,000
Grosse Pointe Park:5,772
Lincoln Park: 6,690
Boston: 12,166
Toronto: 10,287
From these numbers, the density of Detroit is closer to GPP or Lincoln Park than Hamtramck or any city that could be termed "urban".
Here is a google map density map mashup where you can look at population density by city name and zip code. If you type Detroit in the search box you'll find a breakdown by zip code. density link here |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3746
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 10:32 am: | |
quote:If you type Detroit in the search box you'll find a breakdown by zip code.
Did you bother to do this? If you had, then you should have seen that the Detroit overall population density is skewed some sparsely populated areas.
ETA: Also, 17 of the 26 zip codes in Detroit are more densely populated than the most densely populated Grosse Pointe zip code. There is no comparison to be made.
(Message edited by iheartthed on February 09, 2009) |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2331
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 12:10 pm: | |
Yes I IHD, based on these 2000 numbers parts of the City are more populated than others. That is true for all cities, New York and Tokyo included, don't you think a serious discussion should evaluate the City as a whole?
You can filet out data if you desire. You can use the data to make yourself feel better about Detroit. If that will help you get through the day, I'm glad I was able to help. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3747
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 1:00 pm: | |
quote:Yes I IHD, based on these 2000 numbers parts of the City are more populated than others. That is true for all cities, New York and Tokyo included, don't you think a serious discussion should evaluate the City as a whole?
No, because you aren't comparing apples to apples. You aren't comparing where people live in Detroit to where people live in Grosse Pointe. Concentrating on zip codes shows that residents in Detroit tend to live in more densely populated neighborhoods than those in Grosse Pointe. That is a nuance that would not be noticed if you just looked at the city wide picture. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2333
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 2:12 pm: | |
Like I said, if that makes you feel better, fine. You can think that Detroit is a teeming hotbed on commerce and prosperity. You can think Detroit is a world class urban city, but our suburban-style neighborhoods speak to a different reality.
Detroit just doesn't have the population density of Chicago, Boston, Washington, San Fransisco, NYC. Those are real urban cities. Detroit is a large collection of suburban-style neighborhoods. Brightmore, Rosedale Park, Grandmont, Woodbridge,the Villages, etc. It doesn't make it bad, it just is what it is.
If you don't think so, fine. If you think our housing stock compares to that found in those aforementioned cities, fine. Having lived in Chicago on Sheridan, and spending a little time in Boston and San Fransisco, I have a little different feeling.
I like Detroit, I like living here. I find it authentic. I find the people friendly and the city interesting, but I wish it was different in many ways. One of those ways is pretending it is something it isn't. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3748
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 2:26 pm: | |
^I did not compare Detroit to any city but Grosse Pointe, which is also what you tried to compare it to. I used your source to rebut your irrelevant point and show you the error of your conclusion. Nothing else. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2334
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 3:15 pm: | |
city2city not city to zipcode.
If that is what you think, be strong with that; we are much better off with delusional folk who look at graffiti as art, gutted buildings as copper mines, corrupt political system as a cultural expression of empowerment, then a populace who sees Detroit for what it is.
Blood could run in the streets if we fully absorbed the depth of anguish that has made families escape our town.
On a personal level, without my daily intake of self-delusion I might not be able to get through the day. I'm really not slipping closer to a dirt nap, just ripening. Not losing my hair, just going for a more streamlined look. Self-delusion keeps me from putting on my Sylvia Plath ovenmitts and going for the big sleep.
In fact, IHD, I salute you dogged sense of purpose. Your religious fervor and incomparable adherence to your core belief. Good for you. We all need a good delusion to grab on to.
Hang in there. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 3:58 pm: | |
I think Iheart is spot on.
Much of Detroit is extremely depopulated. That negatively affects the population density. But the depopulated areas are, by definition, not the areas in which most Detroiters live. Looking at your density map above, 48211 has about 2500 people per square mile, while 48205 has around 10,400. So 48211 is low-density, but if you went and looked at it, you would see that it's not the least bit "suburban," it just has a lot of empty lots. Suburban areas are low-density by design, 48211 became low-density over time because people left and houses were torn down. Zip codes like 48211 bring down the overall density of the city, and hide the fact that more populated areas such as 48205 (which itself has its share of empty land) are actually relatively dense. People per square mile is not a complete picture.
Please note that I'm not saying that Detroit, as it currently exists, is a bustling urban metropolis. I'm just saying it was designed as one. Detroit, for the most part, is not suburban by design, the way that Warren or Troy or Livonia is, and the parts of the city that have retained most of their peak population reflect this. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3749
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 4:29 pm: | |
Haha, me delusional? Please.
I'm just pointing out the fatal flaw in your argument. I believe that they call your form of arguing "attacking the messenger instead of the message".
You cannot say that Detroit and Grosse Pointe based on the overall population density, especially when you look at the density by zip code and see that most Detroit zips are denser than the densest GP zip. It's a flawed comparison.
Another flaw is that you compare outer areas of Detroit to their immediate neighboring suburban communities. If you look at northern areas of the Bronx, the housing looks remarkably similar to the housing in Yonkers and Mount Vernon, which borders the Bronx. Likewise, if you look at eastern areas of Queens, and compare it where western Nassau County, Long Island. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2335
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 4:39 pm: | |
I can see you'll believe what you want. good luck with that. The city is much stronger for it.
Oh, you going to come visit anytime soon? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3750
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 4:41 pm: | |
>Oh, you going to come visit anytime soon?
I'll probably be back in a month or two. I was there during the holidays. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 2221
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 6:56 pm: | |
In addition to the rail line, there was actually once a plan to extend express mass transit on I-96.
Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I nterstate_96
Exerpt:
The Detroit Expressway and Transit System plan, prepared in 1945 for the city of Detroit, included a Grand River Expressway, which was to parallel Grand River Avenue into downtown and relieve congestion on that artery. A rail line would be built in the median of the freeway west of West Chicago Street, where streetcars would exit onto the existing surface tracks on Grand River Avenue into downtown. The plan called for a future conversion to rapid transit with a grade-separated route to downtown.[23] The Department of Street Railways determined in 1947 that the operation would cost $6 million per year, and the planned transit line was dropped from the plans. By 1961, the proposed highway was renamed the Jeffries Freeway, after Edward Jeffries, who served as Detroit mayor from 1940 to 1948.[24][25] |
Rooms222
Member
Username: Rooms222
Post Number: 170
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 7:19 am: | |
The change to Walmart begins:
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20090210/BIZ/9 02100371 |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 735
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 8:31 pm: | |
Mr. Hertel promises to come to the rescue and make sure that Detroit and Livonia residents get to the Wal-Marts on a clean, safe and reliable public bus with his NEW regional transit plan coming next April.
Mr. Hertel, please come to our city hall to debate me.
It's my plan versus yours.
My plan is better then yours.
Please challenge me. |
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