  Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 977 Registered: 07-2007 |
Good reviews on new hybrid from Ford. The question seems to be whether it will arrive in time to turn things around for Ford. "Had Ford made a few hundred thousand of these cars available in June -- along with the financing to sell them -- we'd be erecting 50-foot equestrian statues of William Clay Ford and Alan Mulally in city squares, and the streets of Dearborn, Mich., would be repaved with diamond cobblestones. ... And yet, here we are, with a car that seemed purely theoretical -- a desirable, affordable, no-compromise sedan that gets 40-plus mpg -- about to show up at Ford dealerships in the first quarter of 2009. Somebody ought to tell Thomas Friedman." http://www.latimes.com/classif ied/automotive/highway1/la-fi- neil19-2008dec19,0,2503132.sto ry | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 630 Registered: 04-2008 |
The hybrid-mania will fade away if gas prices stay low. | ||
J_to_the_jeremy Member Username: J_to_the_jeremy Post Number: 154 Registered: 03-2007 |
Gas prices won't stay low. And hybrids save you money regardless. I don't see why cheap gas HAS to be an instant excuse to buy trucks. Isn't it better to be safe than sorry? | ||
Zzshock Member Username: Zzshock Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2008 |
If the economy weren't so bad, I'd be fully behind a federal gas tax. Put the pressure on now while we still have gas to use. There are too many grasshoppers and not enough ants. People won't care about the environment or freeing the US from OPEC until the results are right in their face. | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 546 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote:Hybrids cost more to buy, they don't save you anything up front, and may save you money in the long run if gasoline prices go back up.....unless you have to replace those expensive batteries (OUCH!) | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1734 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ford didnt need saving. GM and Chrysler did. Did the LA Times lay off all their real journalists, too? Hybrids take a while to "pay off" in terms of recouping higher costs of a vehicle relative to the savings in gas. Unfortunately, you arent going to see consumers jump on the sword of the environment or long-term energy independence and think beyond their own pay off periods. So, if gas remains cheap, people wont buy hybrids. Just look at the sales figures of the Escape vs the Hybrid Escape. Better yet, look at truck sales. They are back to the ratio they were before gas prices went so high. But maybe consumers have been "brainwashed" by automotive and were forced to buy more trucks instead of hybrids. That all said, the Fusion Hybrid comes out right around the corner... and beats the Toyota Camry hybrid by 6mpg. And remember... Ford quality is now second to none. Take pride Detroit! | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 632 Registered: 04-2008 |
The more people drive hybrids, the less demand there is for gas, the cheaper gas becomes, the less demand there is for hybrids. | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 280 Registered: 05-2005 |
Just build me a low cost, affordable, safe gasoline powered car. I don't want to pay a premium and be a guinea pig testing out the new technology. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3606 Registered: 06-2008 |
"Hybrids cost more to buy, they don't save you anything up front, and may save you money in the long run if gasoline prices go back up.....unless you have to replace those expensive batteries" This will change though after the incoming administration throws a bajillion dollars at alt fuel technology development as well as all kinds of tax credits toward consumers who buy them | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 897 Registered: 11-2007 |
I don't know how many of you saw the 60 Minutes episode two weeks ago but there is going to be a lot of oil around for a long time yet based on these huge new Saudi fields coming online. What's more important in the next few yrs is getting the country off the economic dependency of oil. Handing billions of dollars to foreign countries makes no sense when there are alternatives. Keeping gas at about 3.50 a gallon by taxing it to that level when the price falls below makes a lot of sense. You then take the tax revenue and divide it between investment in energy saving technologies, new infrastructure and tax credits to consumers. This will give the automakers a stable price to deal with so they count on consumers buying fuel efficient vehicles. You just need gov't that understands all this and has the will to use the tax revenue properly. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 406 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'd love for this to be my next car... IF Ford Credit and Ford Dealers will not be so ----ing discriminatory towards young black women who come to purchase a car alone. Back in 2001-2002, I was in the market for a Ford Focus. I'll never forget the humiliation at 3 Ford dealerships, which I will name if you'd like. Prices quoted were up to 1/3 more than the blue book value (a $600 monthly payment? For a Focus? Really? I'm black, but I AM pretty good at math). After giving up on Ford, where my late grandfather worked, I tried GM and Chrysler dealerships. Oh, the stories. I kept getting sent over to the used car lot when I was specifically in the market for a NEW car. A couple of times, I was openly humiliated. (What do you mean, I don't have the credit for this beater? Or the income? I'm a teacher with a master's degree -- have lived on my own since age 18 -- what, so I need to be a homeowner?) Finally, I went into the enemy's camp on a whim -- it was right down the street from the last place where I'd been told "everything is fine, Ms. English" and then told "sorry, it's too bad, but we just can't sell you this car". I felt guilty about it, because no one else in my family had ever driven an import. I was respected, catered to, and treated like a human being with a brain. I wasn't taken for a ride, lied to, or treated like I was in the Jim Crow South. So yes, as some DYesers know from meetups, when I first came to this forum, I was driving a brand new Toyota RAV4. And if you're mad at me for that, f--- you and the horse you rode in on. When I paid it off in 2006, Toyota sent me my last payment back AND my choice of a thank-you gift (value around $75) for being a good customer. Do you think when I paid off my first car, a 1993 Ford Escort I drove until the wheels fell off, I was extended the same courtesy? It's not just the product. Domestic autos are just as good, if not better. I am sore that I never got to drive the original Jeep Cherokee, and that I didn't get that Focus. But the Japanese and the Europeans' customer service and dealers don't seem to be quite as nasty as some of the Big Three ones in the area. And if you don't believe me, feel free to borrow my skin and walk around many local dealerships without a man sometime. You'll get treated like a shoplifting baby's mama at best. Now, the foreign automakers lately have engaged in the same a--hattery as the Americans. The most awful salesperson I ever had sold me my current vehicle, which he ordered with the wrong specs. I complained to corporate, and only got some dumb excuse of a letter where he said the reason "was because my father died." They lost my business 2 1/2 years ago because of that incident, so I'm paying this off, and coming back home to the domestics. My next car will be an American vehicle, IF I'm not disregarded and ignored, or even treated rudely when I am pleasant. I am not asking for their dealers to kiss my a--. I am asking for them to treat me as if I am a human being. And I shouldn't have to take my grandmother or my boyfriend with me for that to happen... not if I am spending 30-50K on a vehicle. That's too much $ for me to kiss someone's rear end whose commission I am paying. (Message edited by English on December 19, 2008) | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 289 Registered: 02-2006 |
Best technology that saves fuel and doesn't make the customer a guinea pig is gasoline direct injection. To put it simply, it's high pressure injection similar to what diesels have used for years. Ford calls their system Ecoboost, GM just says "DI". Let's put it this way, the 2008 Saturn Vue with a 2.4 four is rated at 26 mpg highway. The 2010 Chevrolet Equinox with a similar size engine, vehicle weight similar but the addition of a six speed versus a four speed transmission, well the rating jumps to a projected 30 mpg. Part of it is the two more gears, part the more power and part the higher precision of the injection system. It works, it's relatively simply but does require a very fast processor to run it. The DI systems will eventually spread across lines. It makes far more sense than the hybrid systems. The only drawback is it is questionable if it can run on E85 in very cold conditions. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5069 Registered: 06-2004 |
Unfortunately dealerships aren't controlled by the manufacturers. Due to franchise laws the manufacturers can't just whack misbehaving dealers when they want to. I think you should name the dealers and more specifically the salesmen if you still have their names. Did you voice your displeasure to the management? That's the quickest way they'll find out they have a bad attitude salesman. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 407 Registered: 10-2003 |
OK, Lilpup. Hope I don't get sued for slander. I don't remember the names of the salesguys (sorry), but these were the places I tried during the winter of 2001-2002. I was living in Midtown Detroit back then, and was a little nervous about going too far out into the 'burbs (leftover lore from the days growing up when the metro was far more segregated). These all could be perfectly fine places to shop now. And let's face it, I no longer look like a DPS teenager who's too young to buy alcohol... I'm in my 30s, and life has aged my "baby face".  I don't assume I'll be treated the same way. FORD Pat Miliken Ed Schmidt Fairlane CHRYSLER Bill Snethkamp Westborn GM Red Holman I've never been one to call the NAACP or throw tantrums. My people weren't those kind of black folks -- they were the dignified kind. I was raised to walk out and preserve my dignity. The guy who sold me the RAV4 back in '02 was Wil McCarver of LaFontaine Toyota. A genuinely kind guy, who began his career as a salesman at Ford... and knew how to sell Toyotas to people from Ford families. He asked me about my needs and vehicle usage, then suggested a light SUV. He took me through the RAV from hood to back tire, telling me about its strengths AND its weaknesses. When I finished paying off the RAV4 in '06, I wanted to trade it in for something with better gas mileage. I drive from Ann Arbor back home to the D a lot. I had such a great experience with Wil till I went back to LaFontaine. Wil had moved away from Michigan, so they gave me a black guy this time. Let's just say brotherman was no Wil. He really, really messed me up. Buying a car from him was the WORST decision I've ever made. I loathe my Corolla with a PASSION, but have two more ----ing years to go. It's a cheap piece of crap. I am EMBARRASSED to drive it, because it's a sign that I am a TRAITOR to this region. I wish there was some way I could drive it to the nearest Ford dealership and get my Fusion.... but I have to suffer because I was stupid. I should have tried harder, I guess. Maybe I should have talked to my teacher friends about where they went for cars -- but it was during a period when a LOT of my coworkers were driving imports and my Ford Escort was famously stopping on the Lodge. Thinking about what the folks I hung out with drove when I got the RAV, off the top of my head, there was a Volkswagen Jetta, a Lexus, a Honda CR-V, an Odyssey, a Camry, and a Mustang convertible. When I drove up in the new RAV, I got quite a bit of social cachet... the teachers who'd teased me for the Ford gave me a thumbs-up. Back then I was scared to go to the exurbs to shop; now that I live in Ann Arbor and am finishing up at the U, and have supervised student teachers all over SE Michigan, I don't mind driving anywhere. And of course I feel badly about giving the better part of $50K to foreign makers when without the Big Three, my life would've been very different. I'm a huge supporter of the domestics and wrote in support of the bailout. And unless I have no choice, I will never, ever buy an import again. Ever. | ||
Detmsp Member Username: Detmsp Post Number: 39 Registered: 08-2008 |
@angry_dad: "Best technology that saves fuel and doesn't make the customer a guinea pig is gasoline direct injection. To put it simply, it's high pressure injection similar to what diesels have used for years. Ford calls their system Ecoboost, GM just says "DI". " What in the world are you talking about? Ecoboost and "DI" are not similar to diesel. I think what you're talking about is HCCI (homogeneous charge compression ignition), which is something GM is working on, but isn't currently in any production vehicles. Ecoboost and "DI" are not the same. Ecoboost is an initiative from Ford to use smaller engines with turbochargers. The idea is instead of using a 6-cylinder engine, they can get the same power at better fuel economy with a 4-cylinder turbocharged engine. "DI" stands for direct injection, and is a more efficient alternative to fuel port injection. DI involves pressurizing the gas and injecting it directly into the combustion chamber of all the cylinders. Two very different things. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 883 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detmsp- I believe you are wong. Direct injection injects the fuel directly into the cylinder, rather than port injection, which injects the fuel into the port and then travels into the cylinder when the valve opens. Gasoline direct injection is indeed like diesel in that most all diesel engines today are also direct injection vs port injected. HCCI I'm not as familiar with. I am quite certain diesel does not run similar to HCCI. Ford Ecoboost most certainly does use direct injection (and turbocharging). http://media.ford.com/article_ display.cfm?article_id=27455 | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2206 Registered: 04-2006 |
This car would still have problems selling if they brought it to the market in July. Look at the Prius; gas started dropping in August. Besides, if it was a good seller, it would not save the local economy. The cars and most of its parts are produced in Mexico. Both the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camary have a greater impact on the economy than these vehicles because they are assembled in the United States and use roughly double the number of parts from US Suppliers. The spin offs from all of those jobs are enormous. Remember, the Accords are only built two hours away in Ohio and the Camary is built in KY. Both are well within the workshed of local suppliers. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 407 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: I know final assembly is in Mexico, but I don't know where the parts (especially the engine, transmission) come from. Do you have stats on this? I personally don't know. I wish there were a website out there that would cite suppliers, locations, and percentage overall domestic content for all vehicles. I have yet to find such a site... In any case, you're neglecting the impact on the local economy from the thousands of engineers and support staff in the sprawling Ford campus in Dearborn. Even if it is assembled in Mexico, it was designed, engineered, tested, and will be supported by Dearborn locals. I used to work for a supplier that was working on integrating with Ford. We designed a 'heated [windshield] washer fluid module'. You wouldn't think such a simple device would require much support, but I probably met with 50+ Ford staff during my time with the supplier. It taught me two things: vehicle body module design and integration is very, very complex, and that Ford's electrical quality is absolutely top notch. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2207 Registered: 04-2006 |
The stats were in the freep about a year ago. They had an article that compared the content of these three vehicles and laid all of this out. My father was about to buy a Fusion and I was pushing for him to get the 500/Taurus. I told him he would be better off according to the news to buy an Accord or a Camary, but he wanted a Ford. Toyota has thousands of engineers employed in Metro Detroit as well. I am not trying to poo poo Ford, heck I driven Fords as my last three cars. I like them. Its just that I want to know my vehicle is having the maximum impact on local jobs. The Fusion does not. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1188 Registered: 12-2003 |
What total hogwash Detroitplanner...Toyota employs a piddling number of engineers in SE Michigan compared to the Big 3. Toyota's attitude is to get the maximum $$ out of the U.S. and it goes back to Tokyo. They give priority to Japanese suppliers, everybody knows that, while the Big 3 don't favor domestic suppliers in the same way. Good for you English, I know there are some on here who know some good Ford dealers and can give you a salesman name for next time. Trade that pup in... I do notice that a lot of my longtime Detroiter friends embraced imports as sort of "classier" but I wonder if that will change now. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 981 Registered: 07-2007 |
I wouldn't expect a Fusion Hybrid to change the local economy in terms of direct economic impact. But it has the potential to be a game changer in terms of the perception of the Big 3. Too much of the discussion that has taken place locally and nationally has been based on outdated perceptions of the quality of the Big 3's offerings, which cars are most technologically advanced, etc. But as we all know, too often, perception is reality. If Ford can come to market with a vehicle that trounces the foreign hybrids in terms of fuel mileage, technology, etc., it may cause a lot of people to rethink their attitudes towards the Big 3 and make them take another look at what Detroit has to offer. | ||
Detmsp Member Username: Detmsp Post Number: 40 Registered: 08-2008 |
Jerome - Well I suppose there are some similarities between diesel and DI gas engines, but HCCI is MUCH more like diesel than direct injection. HCCI (like diesel) uses compression to ignite the fuel, not an electric spark. Sure Ford may be using direct injection engines with turbos for their ecoboost engines.... but that doesn't mean that ecoboost and direct injection are the same thing. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 290 Registered: 02-2006 |
The biggest hurdle for a DI has been leapt decades ago. That being the ability to mechanically inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber. Just like a diesel. HCCI is more a derivative of the DI design. The problem with any HCCI system is it has such a small "sweet spot" where the benefits can be used. HCCI does use compression to ignite but at this time, it does not use compression to start. What it all boils down to is the DI or Ecoboost engines that will be rolled out shorty do use existing proven technology. Some of that technology has been "borrowed" but in this case it is a good thing. Some of the technology that is new is a result of developement. The controllers that run existing cars and trucks continue to increase in ability. And also drop in cost. The DI and Ecoboost system are not technological stretches by any means but they can be spread across many product lines for a massive amount less than a hybrid system. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1738 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ford ECOboost combines direct injection with turbo charging, giving you more power out of a smaller engine (and hence more MPG for the same power). Pays off quickly (versus Hybrid with its much higher initial consumer cost). English, you're a customer and should be treated right. Go to Jack Demmer Ford and ask for Michael Mester. Word of mouth is how you find a good salesperson and I go to him even though its not my local dealer because he treats all people great and is fair on trade-in value, too. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 1020 Registered: 05-2006 |
English said: "I loathe my Corolla with a PASSION, but have two more ----ing years to go. It's a cheap piece of crap. I am EMBARRASSED to drive it, because it's a sign that I am a TRAITOR to this region. I wish there was some way I could drive it to the nearest Ford dealership and get my Fusion.... but I have to suffer because I was stupid." Ironically, your Corolla was assembled in the U.S. (Fremont, California) and the "American" Ford Fusion is built in Mexico. | ||
Detmsp Member Username: Detmsp Post Number: 42 Registered: 08-2008 |
Wash_man let me correct your sentence Ironically, your Corolla MAY HAVE BEEN assembled in the U.S. (Fremont, California) OR IN JAPAN OR CANADA and the "American" Ford Fusion is built in Mexico. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 408 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Go to Jack Demmer Ford and ask for Michael Mester. Word of mouth is how you find a good salesperson and I go to him even though its not my local dealer because he treats all people great and is fair on trade-in value, too." Thanks East_detroit! I'll look into this very, very soon... | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1739 Registered: 11-2003 |
English, if the employee pricing for everyone deal isnt still in effect when you're ready to go, let me know and I know people who will give you an X-Plan code you can use for a discount. Actually, extend that to anyone here who doesnt have a family member to get them A-Plan. |
