 
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2620
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:22 am: |    |
Sure while the character of the neighborhoods of past weren’t Manhattan urban they were still urban. Why are we settling and essentially giving up, condemning the city as dead, even going so far as to call any serious residential redevelopment unrealistic as someone in the article did? I don’t mind this urban planting stuff when done on a realistic scale, I mean for five years I worked for the Greening of Detroit. But I am no way going to support replacing good chunks of the city with an unproven gimmick such as urban farming. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8823
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:24 am: | |
Cheers! Hans...that is a strong statement, but I'll stand with you on it.
Criminal if we DON'T do it and now.
Mayor, I daresay you are overstating the case. Detroit will never be only agriculture, but we WILL still exist BECAUSE of it.
We are the ONLY city with the open spacing provided by decades of what we THOUGHT was the debacle of Devil's Night fires!
Curious twist, turning something so fucking horrible into a useful form of lasting good. I'm all about that...every time I get the chance!
Cheers... |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 838
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:30 am: | |
wow. i wonder if there's ever been a case of a combine used in a drive-by? |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 1020
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:39 am: | |
Doesn't matter. I am more concerned about healthy food and why there are more fast food restaurants in my neighborhood (some parts two of the same)then there are grocery stores. Did I say grocery stores I mean the places where they are trying to sell me there garbage for insanely high prices because they know most of the people in the neighborhood cant afford transportation to get to healthy foods. Instead of walking thru the lots to get to the fast food they are starting to walk TO the lots to pick some FRESH FOOD. And growing year round is next. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 839
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:41 am: | |
quote:And, if we're talking large-scale farming as was also advocated in the article, people need to remember that agriculture uses (and wastes) more water than any other human acitivity on the land (including urbanization).
lmich, how is that so? when i drive through frankenmuth, for example, i see the seeds being sown in the fields, then nature does its work: rain. the crops grow. where is the water being wasted - even moreso than other human any activity on the land? and now that i think about it, ford motor company farms its land in dearborn to pick up ag credits for tax purposes. they plant the seeds, the crops grow and mature, and they're harvested. i don't see the egregious water waste; i don't see any water being wasted at all. |
Vivadetroit
Member
Username: Vivadetroit
Post Number: 135
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:43 am: | |
And what do you suggest putting in these "good chunks of the city?"
Look on realtor.com and there are more than a dozen residential developments that are half-empty or half-built (see BonnieBrae condos at Trumbull and Canfield, Ste. Anne's Gate in Mexicantown, some of the housing at Woodbridge Estates, etc). So, we're going to build more residential for people who don't want to live in the city for the various reasons you state above? That doesn't make sense. Even with the cool, trendy lofts/apts/cheap housing in Detroit, there's a huge chunk of the Metro Detroit population who would rather move out of state than live in the D.
I agree that we can use a lot of the swaths of barren land for experimental projects w/ MSU. Maybe they could even build an agricultural outreach center here or be an international pioneer in urban gardening development, since a lot of big cities around the world are facing problems of fresh, healthy, affordable produce & urban gardening is an alternative for them. We could show them how to do it on a smaller scale.
But a win-win proposal is to grow corn and sugar beets (I think that they can be grown here.) Take them and convert them into alternative fuels for our vehicles. Use the sugar cane-based ethanol model in Brazil (they use cane, which we can't grow here) and use the immense brainpower that currently is being wasted by the Big 3 into creating multi-fuel vehicles (if Fiat can do it, why can't we!?). Turn the trash incinerator into an ethanol refinery and not only do the urban farmers profit, we create many jobs and alternative fuels for others in the Metro Detroit region. |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:46 am: | |
What She said LOL!! |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5105
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:46 am: | |
"when i drive through frankenmuth, for example, i see the seeds being sown in the fields, then nature does its work: rain"
Large farms don't wait for rain. They irrigate. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 840
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:51 am: | |
jcole, what is a "large farm?" there are thousands of acres of farmland up there without irrigation. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3911
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:53 am: | |
Thecarl,
Agricultural water usage is estimated to account for 70% of all global water use. I hear in Asia, 90% of water usage goes to rice farming. People really don't realize how much water agriculture uses. In comparison, the only amount of water required for reverting the land back natural would be nothing more than rain and other natural precip.
Again, I'm not saying that this should be an argument against farming, but I don't think this is an oh-so-obvious solution for Detroit's vacant land, and people need to know all of the facts.
(Message edited by lmichigan on December 16, 2008) |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 841
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:08 am: | |
right, lmich. i was thinking that perhaps you were drawing on statistics that apply worldwide. i imagined that many places where irrigation is required do consume an inordinate amount of water. but with michigan's flat terrain (limiting runoff) and average rainfall, i can't see how farming locally would be a waste of water, no matter what the size of the farm. and then again, i'm restricting my definition by not making references to poultry, livestock, etc., which may require lots of water...but it seems hard to believe these propositions could challenge the environmental abuses on par with local folks who use 5x the amount of lawn chemicals that farmland requires, and run their sprinklers all summer long! |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3912
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:24 am: | |
I'll have to try and find some links, but I think that farming just about anywhere uses more water than the urbanization of land. If you find it before me, though, please post. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8826
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:41 am: | |
Viva,
I would NOT devote a single acre in the city to fuel...our resources should ONLY be used for food. We're not going into some guns/butter economic debate, I hope, because it would be circular...pointless...but I must insist that putting what you propose into the equation will ONLY serve to drive up food prices and possibly delude some folks into avoiding crop rotation to keep our soil healthy.
There are many millions of acres already wasted on a type of corn that people cannot eat, and that market is completely controlled by the Cargill group. They may be wheat, it could be Monsanto or whatever they're called now. Regardless, it is HUGE and we don't want to attract the radar of large corporations or the government (although for the sake of sharing to those who may partake, it is worth the risk of talking about it HERE!).
We will never be able to compete, and the moment we get into fuel creation we are up against some of the heaviest and well-funded guns in the legal and political world.
It would be best to avoid it, and walk or bike to your destinations instead. Make those who live too far away come see you...
Naw, there is SO much misunderstanding of what we are doing here...simply helping individuals become responsible for at least a portion of their caloric intake, if not most of it.
There is a fellow who calculated exactly what it would take to feed a person for a year off a plot of ground...and as far as I know he wasn't taking any extended season liberties or efforts...when I get the chance I'll look him up.
He is from Northern CA, in the Silicon Valley area, and works with the nearest large university if I remember right...is that Stanford? Could be something as simple as San Jose University...I don't know and don't have time to look now.
Cheers! |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8827
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:43 am: | |
L.
You are barking up the wrong tree, my friend.
These numbers for agri-use are ONLY an issue if you POISON your water when you farm the land!
We are NOT using petroleum-based pesticides or fertilizers...so all the water THAT WE RETURN TO OUR OWN WATERSHED...is as safe for human consumption as the rest of it.
So NOW what do you got for me?!
(Message edited by Gannon on December 16, 2008) |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8828
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:50 am: | |
quote:possibly delude some folks into avoiding crop rotation to keep our soil healthy
I mis-spoke...I meant it would quicken it's UNhealth.
I then read the end of thecarl's excellent retort, which I missed in my rush to reply. Heh, my Livonia Friend is one such animal!
There is no mistake why I live in a warehouse...I've never quite understood the whole 'lawn' phenomena. (much to the chagrin of my old Dearborn Heights neighbors!)
It doesn't help that my thumbs are NOT green!
(one quick funny...if we DO end up needing any help with watering our crops, at least the city's fire fighting system could be creatively 'tested' on a rotating basis...the infrastructure is here already!) |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:53 am: | |
whooooa! Dont go there Gannon. You will get your head chewed off about those fire hydrants. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8829
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:56 am: | |
One more correction...Number 2 corn is able to be consumed by Humans, it is just not that nutritional.
It is just growable starch to make cows and pigs fat quickly...remember that cows eat grass, which is why they have all those stomachs.
We were SOLD on corn-fed beef...it is un-natural.
(thanks to Michael Pollan in his excellent book, The Omnivore's Dilemma, and others like the documentary King Corn) |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 844
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:58 am: | |
quote:We were SOLD on corn-fed beef...it is un-natural.
hey, don't you sell corned beef at eph's!?!? |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8830
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 1:59 am: | |
I would NEVER touch them unless there was some legislation, Cub, you know me better than that.
We've got to stack that City Council deck before we could play with fire...hydrants.
When it all goes berzerk, the Fire Department will TRADE their water access for some of your watermelon. I'll bet on it.
Plus, the Chief likes our sandwiches...and will still get them IF he helps us grow. It ain't a crisis yet, but it sure feels like one is coming.
They're already talking drought for next year...in the MAJOR press! Has anyone bothered to read into next years Almanac yet? I was busy that day... |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:01 am: | |
I just ordered one lol. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8831
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:10 am: | |
Of course we do, thecarl, I'm referring to decades of advertisement and pushing product through exclusive steak restaurants...developing a desire, with an unnatural process. Cows don't usually eat corn, they eat grass. They prefer some clover in with it...and it actually changes even the taste of their MILK products!
The corned beef process works with grass-fed cows, too, silly! But NO, I don't know how ours is fed, and will investigate what it would cost to offer an upscale version...it is very likely to be a much higher price for the raw material.
Most beef in the marketplace is corn-fed, it is nearly ubiquitous. Fatten up those muthas as FAST as they can! It is what we eat...I do, too...just rarely.
I'm a Dublin Garden sorta guy...heh. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8832
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:15 am: | |
One thing, Cub, also...if something is NOT on the books, as you say our gardens are...then it is specifically indigenous.
If anyone wants to argue that...they can go jump in the river...but I'm sure someone could try to legally restrict on the basis you say but we could then go to Common Law and see what they say about abandoned property or that owned by the City and used by residents of such.
We're not doing anything illegal by local laws (that one was for Sumas), and most of us by national ones because nothing we do will be interstate, save maybe our wisdom gleaned through experience and enthusiasm.
Cheers! |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8833
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:17 am: | |
Oh yeah, and there is nothing more indigenous than planting some seeds and letting ol' Mother Nature do her thang turning 'em into crops to make our bellies smile. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8834
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:21 am: | |
Can you tell I'm surfing down the wane of the Full?!
Might be the caffeine. Have you tried to learn if we can grow Coffee, too, through our hoopties?
I'm not sure I want to lose coffee as a morning friend...no matter what the world economy does on this bounce!
We can get that crucial vitamin c up north, but I'm not sure where I might find caffeine grown locally! |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 846
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:37 am: | |
gannon, you might enjoy this article on beef: http://www.slate.com/id/215267 4/
pretty informative.
lately i've gotten into making bacon and sausage, and corned beef is something i'll be making soon. i know that corning is the curing process. this thread reaches me because i'd like to move to colorado one day and see how much i can live off the land - growing crops, maybe having some limited livestock and chickens. (btw, in colorado, it is in violation of state law to catch and store rainwater. no kidding. people have been jailed for it.)
hey, did you catch the combine joke? mebbe it wasn't worth commenting on. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 3:25 am: | |
Just curious--why Colorado, in particular? Is there some characteristic of the state that makes it uniquely suited to living off the land, or do you just want to move to Colorado? |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 776
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 3:41 am: | |
Late to the party as usual,But have to say I was impressed by the raised beds at the Georgia St garden, AND I did read where Sunflowers are good for removing toxins. |
Hans57
Member
Username: Hans57
Post Number: 372
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:10 pm: | |
Gannon or Cub, what is the schedule for spring look like for you guys?
Is there anything happening now?
I am all for assisting the cause, what can I do? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3615
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:03 pm: | |
I agree with Mayor_sekou.
I mean, the urban gardening thing is a cool idea in theory but...
I don't agree that this should be policy on any type of mass scale in Detroit. And that's the tone I get from reading the article -- that this guy wants this to be policy.
First, Detroit is still a fairly densely populated city. True, it's not Manhattan or San Francisco dense... Or even Chicago or Boston dense. On the other hand, it is a lot more densely populated than Milwaukee, which was mentioned above as a city that is attempting to take this on. Detroit is also a lot more dense than Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Jose, San Diego (those cities are all ranked in the top 10 largest American cities). In fact, of all the American cities that are larger than Detroit, only NYC, L.A., Chicago and Philadelphia are more densely populated.
This brings me to the population patterns in the city of Detroit. The city's population has shifted, much like the population of the entire metropolitan area, from inward out (I can assure you that this will not continue and very soon there will be a reversal). This means that the areas open to be used for these urban farms are the areas going towards the city's center. These also happen to be the areas that would be needed to be developed if you ever plan on having a functioning city center again.
What's wrong with Detroit is that the metropolitan area has expanded geographically by 40% over the last 30 years, while the actual population increase was fairly negligible. This is not sustainable. Metro Detroit will not continue to expand and eat up land while not adding population. And I don't expect a significant decrease in population of Metro Detroit any time soon because the national economy is really not that much better than Michigan's anymore. Detroit actually has the chance to significantly improve the local economy over the coming months, if the metro area is able to get in on the public works funding that Obama is promising.
So while the author of the article tries to make a point by saying that you can fit Manhattan, Boston and San Francisco within Detroit, that really doesn't tell us much. He also says that those cities have a population of 3 million people, but again, so what? Detroit never had a population that large, even during its best days. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5043
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:20 pm: | |
Detroit has a chance to significantly improve the local economy just by getting the crooks out of office so money flows to where it should. The News reports the Fed. investigation is almost done. It can't be any too soon now. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 852
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:30 pm: | |
lilpup, do you expect the investigation might follow the mcnamara trail, and lick at the feet of those holding office in lansing? i was reading today a story about how corrupt illinois and louisiana are, based upon the number of arrests and convictions of public officials. however, i wonder if perhaps michigan might be the "least arrested" of the lot. i dare say that mayor coleman young constructed a worthy blueprint for obfuscation that has contributed mightily to detroit's demise - and surely has connections to the state capitol. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5044
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:41 pm: | |
Not the Gov, dunno about Cox, haven't heard any mention of any legislators |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3616
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:43 pm: | |
quote:Detroit has a chance to significantly improve the local economy just by getting the crooks out of office so money flows to where it should. The News reports the Fed. investigation is almost done. It can't be any too soon now.
I can't wait for that to be done. I hope they start reporting before the end of the year. It would be the perfect ending to this dynamic changing, non-stop breaking news/ new scandal/ next bankruptcy year... |
Hans57
Member
Username: Hans57
Post Number: 373
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:47 pm: | |
My dad was telling me about his childhood in Germany after the war (makes me feel lucky to have what we have right now), he told me about the Schrebergarten movement that exploded after the war ended. With there being so many destroyed bulidings, people we forced to start from scratch. He said every neighborhood had multiple gardens.
http://www.spiegel.de/internat ional/0,1518,410799,00.html
Is this a model that we could be following?
Is this the model that people in Detroit are already following? |
Fishtoes2000
Member
Username: Fishtoes2000
Post Number: 697
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 4:43 pm: | |
Here's the announcement I hinted at earlier:
http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081217/NEWS01/81217062/1003
"Detroit Mayor Ken Cockrel Jr. announced today that he has tapped one of his aides to lead a new Office of Energy and Sustainability that will seek to make city facilities more energy efficient, educate the community about environmentally friendly principles, make vacant lots available for residents interested in using them as urban gardens and assist with a pilot curbside recycling program slated to start in July." |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 14917
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 6:29 pm: | |
Sustainability, that's it.
We're not talking about creating an industry to feed the world beyond our borders...we have to simply get past the next couple of years of really, really tough and lean times!
Our 'legislative' goal: Citizens of Detroit get to use the land we have fallow for FREE to grow food for their own use.
Perhaps also: Community Gardens can be a gathering of like-minded citizens within a neighborhood, and as long as they work with one of the training and observing agencies like Greening they can sell their produce to restaurants and through open markets like Eastern Market.
The infrastructure is already in place, enthusiastic individuals have done the yeo-person's share of the effort training, observing, and marketing the wares...there is really nothing to it now except for citizens to volunteer their time and land.
Oh yeah, legislative action number three: Community Composting! Get rid of that fellow who doesn't 'get it'...Cub knows who I'm talking about. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 14922
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 10:00 am: | |
Heya Hans,
Cub and I spoke last night at the Evolution Labs/Eastern Market Movie Night...and made the executive decision that we need to figure out WHAT we can do this winter to prepare for spring.
We're still not really used to thinking in seasonal time frames!
There are plots to plan, raised bed frames to cut and build, composting can happen all winter...and we haven't bothered to learn canning and other storage and extended-use tips and tricks yet, at least I haven't.
If I start thinking about it NOW, I just might be on time for the spring harvest. I'm learning as we go along, and one of my greatest lessons is that my lack of time awareness is only limited to the finer divisions of days, hours, and minutes.
I can USUALLY tell you what week and month it is, though! Plus, I ride the moon phase cycle.
Cheers, and thanks for your enthusiasm...you will enjoy this group. Good, honest people everywhere you turn, it is uncanny. Urban farming is a social filter...I haven't met a selfish asshole yet, I don't think the type-a's can handle the extended time considerations. They don't 'wait' for their food...don't think they wait for anything!
Of course, sinking one's hands into the earth on a regular basis is THE anti-dote for stressed-out type-a behavior. We'll keep that our little secret for now.
Cheers! |
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