  Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 252 Registered: 08-2006 |
How many Proving Grounds are there in the metro Detroit area? What are Proving Grounds used to prove? The world and the nation want to see Detroit prove what it has for the future. Are the Proving Grounds active these days with leading-edge technology? Are the Proving Grounds being used to prove that American products have the quality, endurance and reliability to compete with the world? I think the Proving Grounds are where Detroit's automotive manufacturers need to be spending a lot of time these days. BuyAmerican and others are saying that Detroit's products are as reliable and quality-built as anything else in the world. The Proving Grounds are where to prove it. Give us some test data to prove that we are on track. Anyone know if the Proving Grounds are showing more or less activity these days? Anyone agree that if Detroit has an answer to the world and the American buying public, that an aggressive testing and proving campaign is a way to gain respect and sales? | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 706 Registered: 08-2007 |
The GM Proving Grounds is in Milford. I am not sure, but I think they are doing less activity than before. Computer-aided design and delegating development work out to suppliers reduces workload, I think. Also, with the global engineering centers, I think a lot of that work is being done in other countries. | ||
1kielsondrive Member Username: 1kielsondrive Post Number: 544 Registered: 08-2008 |
GM in Milford, Chrysler in Chelsea and Ford in Dearborn. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5649 Registered: 06-2004 |
Here's the test data you can have - all else is proprietary. It's bad enough Bush let the Japanese reverse engineer the newest flex fuel tech before the American makers fully benefitted from it. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11 /16/automobiles/16STICKER.html ?scp=1&sq=volt&st=nyt | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 1176 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ford - Romeo Chrysler - Chelsea GM - Milford FTTA - Fowlerville Bosch - Flat Rock and New Carlisle, Indiana TRC/Honda/NHTSA - East Liberty, Ohio Check out JD Power ratings for a peek at the quality numbers. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2094 Registered: 12-2005 |
Ford's Proving Grounds are near Romeo. They have a test track in Dearborn. Proving grounds are where new and revised vehicle designs undergo physical product testing and design validation. Modern vehicles are designed using math data and there has been an increasing amount of design validation that can be reliably performed using computers instead of physical testing. However, it is very difficult to understand and accurately model the interfaces between the various vehicle subsystems using math data. Since the customer purchases and drives a complete vehicle (system), the role of the proving grounds will never be totally replaced by computer modeling. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 382 Registered: 12-2007 |
Ford has their bigger PG in Romeo, too. For nostalgia's sake I want to add Packard in Utica  Peachlaser, Some of your questions seem more metaphorical than literal, so I'll skip an answer to those and attempt to answer the literal ones and perhaps your larger question too. Proving grounds are used to prove designs. Does this part perform the way it is supposed to? How well does it work? Does this system work the way it is supposed to? What happens if we do X, Y, or Z to system A or component B? In addition to the PGs in Michigan, all of the Ameircan automakers and many foreign automakers have hot- and cold-weather proving grounds. The hot ones tend to be in Arizona or the California desert, and the cold ones tend to be in places like northern Minnesota or Ontario. These, naturaly, are used to test performance of cars, parts and systems in extremes of weather. Most vehicle dynamic testing and development is done at PGs. This encompasses ride and handling development, NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) testing, fuel consumption testing, aerodynamics testing, crash testing. In addition to all sorts of labs, there is a wide variety of road types and surfaces - high-speed banked tracks, handling tracks, off-road, all sorts of pavement surfaces, some of which may be exact copies of certain types of roads (e.g. Belgian paving stones) or even specific roads, and so on. A certain amount of dynamic testing can be done in static labs (shaker tables, road input simulators, test rigs, etc.) and in computer modeling but eventually you still have to build cars and drive them. Suppliers do a lot of component-level and some system-level development (some of which is at the manfacturers' PGs) but this does not obviate the need for automakers to do their own development. I don't know what the volume of PG activity is compared to, say, 20 or 30 years ago, but there is a lot that can be done in labs or on computers that could only be done on the road, or couldn't be done at all, decades ago. Lest you think that this is a shortcut, it isn't - it is true of everybody, not just American automakers. I don't agree with your last statement. Having an aggressive testing and development program is part of the price of entry to selling cars in most markets. Using it in advertising may help, but the way to gain respect and sales is to build the right product and sell it for the right price. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 384 Registered: 12-2007 |
Boy, Mikeg was a lot more succinct than I was. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2095 Registered: 12-2005 |
I used to work in systems engineering, so I know a little about the vehicle development process (plus I live in what used to be the infield of the old Packard PG test track!). The intent is to utilize the set of best computerized and physical validation practices so that component, subsystem and vehicle system validation can be completed as quickly as possible, with minimum design change iterations. You want the vehicle design to be validated as much as possible before you start cutting hard tooling and it must be completely and accurately validated before you certify it to the government and "release" it to the customer. The Feds are not ready to substitute computer testing for physical barrier crash tests, roll-over tests, etc. so that also remains a big role for the automaker's "proving grounds". (Message edited by Mikeg on November 18, 2008) | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 386 Registered: 12-2007 |
Well, a certain precision of thought shows. I used to work in vehicle development (quality, technical problem-solving and vehicle evaluation in particular) but I gather from some of Mike G's prior posts that he is quite a bit older than I am and spent a lot longer in the ndustry. I went to CPG occasionally but was never based there. | ||
1kielsondrive Member Username: 1kielsondrive Post Number: 547 Registered: 08-2008 |
MikeG, you're correct. There's also a track at the Chrysler HQ in Auburn Hills and one at Toyota in A2 off of Plymouth Road and US 23. | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 703 Registered: 08-2007 |
My autoshop teacher was a driver at the Chelsea proving grounds, He liked to talk about driving fast. How long did Ford use the old Packard grounds? Went there once for a car show/swap meet.What I have seen is that Ford likes to use Hines Drive alot to test there vehicles on. | ||
Rid0617 Member Username: Rid0617 Post Number: 353 Registered: 03-2008 |
We have a BMW plant here and their proving grounds is on site. It's fun to watch them put cars through their paces. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2096 Registered: 12-2005 |
BMW's proving grounds are located in Deutschland. A short test track is often built next to an assembly plant so that finished vehicles can be driven off the final line and put through a brief shakedown ride, particularly those that had been in the repair hole. These test tracks are also used for identification and problem-solving of squeaks/rattles, windnoise, alignment etc. issues that arise in the plant's build processes. Note the test track adjacent to the GM Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant in this Google Maps aerial image). Auto manufacturers locate their proving grounds close to where their product engineering staff resides. Proving grounds are used for validating (not just testing) vehicle designs that are not yet in production, therefore there is no advantage in locating it next to an assembly plant. Of all the vehicles produced in the US, only those from GM, Ford and Chrysler had the majority of their product engineering and validation performed in the USA (and the same can be said about their R & D spending). (Message edited by Mikeg on November 18, 2008) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2097 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: Proving grounds are used to "test" and validate pre-production vehicles, not those that are already released for sale to the public. Proving ground "test" data on pre-production vehicles should show a lot of problems being identified and that is a good thing as long as they are identified early and the design fixes are all successfully validated prior to start of production. Even if the manufacturers wanted to also use their proving grounds for collecting and releasing "test" data on released vehicle models, the public would be skeptical of that data. That is why independent third parties exist and at the model level, the data that counts is contained in the various JD Power quality surveys, Consumer Reports evaluations, etc. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2524 Registered: 12-2005 |
Quote/question: How long did Ford use the old Packard grounds? Ford bought the whole kit and kabbodle from the Utica-Bend corporation, the skeletal company set up to allow the Detroit portion of Studebaker-Packard to continue to satisfy the few government contracts they had in the hopper at the time of S-P's "out of money, game over" crash in June of 1956 that led to the Curtis-Wright takeover (of S-P) and the closing of all Detroit automotive operations (=Packard). Ford bought the Utica works in 1957, which included the (then) modern plant on the Mound road side of the property, which was built by Packard in 1952 for defense work and later converted to machine and assemble the new Packard V-8 engine and Twin-Ultramatic transmission and rear axles (1955-56 MY only). That plant is a Visteon facility now. Ford only really used the speed oval at the Packard proving grounds when they needed to rack up miles on test cars according to one person I talked to from Ford, others may know more accurate information. To my knowledge (which is conditional, having really only talked to one Ford person about this) the other parts of the PPG, the grade (hill) test areas, mud pits, and other areas were not used there, they did that testing elsewhere, especially after they developed Romeo into their primary facility. By the looks of the test track over the years I drove my cars on that track (1979-1990) I would say they stopped driving on it in the mid 1980s, after 1990 they parked large wire bins on the back straight away from the (Ford trim) Visteon plant, which shut down use of the track. After that the seams of the pavement began to crumble seriously and there was no desire to spend the money to fix it. (Message edited by 56packman on November 18, 2008) (Message edited by 56packman on November 18, 2008) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3112 Registered: 10-2003 |
All of Detroit is a proving ground for all of the manufacturers and suppliers. Our crappy road come in very handy for NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness) testing. Manufacturers have predefined test routes they run on both public streets and closed tracks. If you see a Michigan license plate with an M in the middle, it is a test vehicle. It is either a later prototype or a production car with test parts attached. The proving grounds are used for tests that can't be run on the street or for special conditions that are hard to replicate. Auto manufacturers also have proving grounds in extreme weather sites. Most auto manufacturers have proving grounds in Arizona for heat stress testing. Ford just sold their Yucca arizona proving grounds to Chrysler. Chrysler sold thier previous Phoenix site for sprawl development. I believe Ford will be using Volvo's proving grounds for heat testing. Most also have cold weather and high altitude test tracks and test labs. My first automotive engineering job was at the Dearborn proving grounds. I also spent a considerable amount of time at the Yucca proving grounds. The Yucca proving grounds used to be an air force base. I designed test tools for vehicle validation. I loved that job. Nothing better than being able to severely abuse someone elses vehicle, especially when you know it's headed for the crusher when you're done with it. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 2860 Registered: 11-2007 |
Slightly off topic, but this spy photo was taken at a proving ground. quote:  http://www.geekologie.com/2008/11/oh_nice_ride_the_new_president.php | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 387 Registered: 12-2007 |
Those whisper-thin a-pillars should give great visibility! | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 2865 Registered: 11-2007 |
It has 5" thick glass that can repel RPG's and it sits on the 2500 frame and drive train. Not exactly green mileage either. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1872 Registered: 02-2005 |
After seeing the security with the Prez and the candidates who come to town, I am beginning to think that the Feds' purchase of Chevy Suburbans must be keeping GM afloat. | ||
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 253 Registered: 08-2006 |
Thanks everyone for your comments! Lilpup said: quote: Very interesting article. The ALMS is trying something similar in the Green Challenge where equations developed by the EPA, DOE and SAE International are attempting to measure the most efficient and green power plants using a variety of energy sources. http://www.americanlemans.com/ series/green_challenge_news.as px A lot of factors are being considered including fuel efficiency, performance and environmental impact. Amazingly, this year's award was won by Corvette Racing running their E85 cellulosic ethanol fuel-based system. Otter wrote: quote: Yes, you are correct. My simple point is that Detroit has a lot to prove and must do so quickly. Right now, the American industry seems to be in a Rodney Dangerfield "We just don't get any respect" period. Detroit has a lot to prove. How and where do you do it? Personally, I think racing and competing against the world's best manufacturers and winning in the ALMS international prototype endurance series is one way to prove your might. But, there is not enough time to do that. GM had their Caddy prototype in the series and was just beginning to achieve success and international respect when they pulled the plug. Honda, on the other hand, has come in and is ready to take on Audi, Porsche and the other top manufacturers in the world. Which manufacturer is growing and which are in trouble? There is rumor that Toyota has joined the competition. You win against the world's best and transfer that to technology updates in your production autos and you gain international respect and increased sales at home and abroad. But, something has to be done now to prove how far the American industry has come and how far the designs and manufacturing have progressed. Can Proving Grounds be used to prove this? How about running cars until they drop and compare the last car standing? That's what's happening in endurance racing. You must be fast, reliable and efficient and then somehow turn that into affordable vehicles that utilize the advanced technology that you develop. Ndavies wrote: quote: Interesting. I've driven on the streets and, yes, I would consider them a test on vehicles! | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1442 Registered: 04-2005 |
i don't know if they are officially designated as proving grounds, but there are a number of sites where vehicles are also subjected to environmental extremes for reliability. | ||
Ltdave Member Username: Ltdave Post Number: 298 Registered: 09-2006 |
""You win against the world's best and transfer that to technology updates in your production autos and you gain international respect and increased sales at home and abroad. "" dont count on it. there are too many who will drive a toyota or a honda regardless of how many nascar races chevy ford or dodge win... | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 274 Registered: 02-2006 |
Toyota has spent billions, maybe as much as the Detroit Three are trying to get in loan garrantes, on a Formula One race program. They haven't won a single race for all of it. In fact they were caught cheating to the point that criminal charges were considered for team members. So what transfers? BTW, they are still despised in the Euro community. | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 708 Registered: 08-2007 |
Thanks for the info Packman. Last Friday I saw 3 Mercs in the parking lot of a local gas station with the leopard paint jobs, vinyl noses, etc. My 16 yr old girl wants a paint job like that on her 1st car except it should be green/purple instead of black/white. One good thing about living round here never know what the big 3 are testing while your driving next to them. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 3529 Registered: 01-2004 |
Packard Proving Grounds: http://detroitfunk.com/?p=581 http://detroitfunk.com/?p=582 | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 3530 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hey Mikeg - can you see your house in that second link ? Hahaha ! I used to play baseball out there when I was a little mauser. | ||
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 254 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ltdave wrote: quote: That's because NASCAR is managed entertainment and not relevant racing. No matter what kind of engine you have in the production cars, in NASCAR they are still running carbs and push-rod engines. Ever hear of fuel-injection and overhead-cam engines? NASCAR is basically irrelevant these days when determining the future of the automobile. Remember the "Car of Tomorrow" that they started racing this year? The big advance that makes the TOMs is that they started using unleaded fuel. How leading-edge is that? AngryDad wrote: quote: As far as relevancy goes, F1 is close to where NASCAR is. But, at least in F1 they are trying new technologies to a point. I still think ALMS is the most-relevant type of racing...they race day or night, rain or shine, they must have workable lights, they turn left and right, at Le Mans they race for over 3,000 miles compared to the 500 miles of NASCAR and they use a variety of high-tech experimental powerplants, fuels, batteries and construction materials. They must be able to slow and then accelerate multiple times during each lap rather than just going out and seeing how fast you can go and then keep turning left. Some people have figured out the differences and relevancy of these different series. Those that have, will base their purchases on results. Those who think NASCAR is racing and relevant have been misinformed. The advance of engine management systems has come a long way. Audi, for example, has continued to experiment with the way that the fuel is put into the cylinder and their advances have given them more power and simultaneously better efficiency. Those are they types of advances that help road cars become efficient. Zytek in England has developed a new series of Lithium-Ion batteries that are about 10% of the size and weight of their old batteries. And they raced this technology at the Petit Le Mans in Atlanta. This is the kind of relevant experimentation, development and testing/proving that I think is needed. NASCAR is similar to the World Series where we claim to be the best in the world and then we don't invite the world to participate. I'm with you BuyAmerican that I think it important to buy our American products, but I also want them to be the best in the world. I don't like seeing American teams like GM finally making progress in a tough world and gaining international respect and then pulling the plug. I think their participation in the ALMS was 100 times more important than any money they spend in NA$CAR. The ALMS participation is relevant to matters at hand. Participation in the other series is basically irrelevant to the challenges facing the American automotive industry. Corvette Racing has achieved a great deal of international respect and their sales show it. But, they have been running in a class where they can use their 7 liter (427 ci) engine. They are now dropping down into a class where they will directly compete against Ferrari, Porsche and BMW with a smaller engine that represents a more sane approach to everyday driving. How will they do? Now that there is about to be head-to-head competition between Detroit's best and the world's best, there is fear that GM will pull the plug on this program. In my opinion, GM needs this rolling research participation more now than ever. Beat the world's best and you will gain respect. Isn't that something Detroit has been struggling with in the market? (Message edited by Peachlaser on November 19, 2008) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2099 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: True, you'll gain the respect of those people who are already aware of ALMS and know how and what they race. And if GM, Ford and/or Chrysler somehow found the money and began to compete in it big-time and showed success, you might triple those numbers in a few short years. Meanwhile, the 11 to 13 million individuals who typically buy/lease a new light vehicle each year at retail, will continue to make their purchase decision from a dwindling number of domestic manufacturers based on what they read in JD Power Reports, Consumer Reports, the automotive press and the daily newspaper headlines. | ||
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 255 Registered: 08-2006 |
Detroit needs a spokesperson/promoter/cheerlea der to tout the progress and successes. Still, more progress has to be made. Lee Iococa was the last spokesman for the industry that drew a national audience. He may not of been perfect, but he sure helped Chrysler get turned around. It has to be a balanced approach..."Yes, we know we still have to make progress, but look how far we have come...facts, stories, facts, etc. We are looking to the future to meet the demands of our buying public. We have heard you and understand your requests better now. Look at these new projects we have underway to lead the world in automotive technology and engineering...Volt, hybrids, Corvette's E-85 program, etc. etc." I've heard that people should buy on patriotism alone. I think the patriotic choice is to build the world's best and most advanced autos in the world and buy because of this quality. Buying the other way rewards mediocrity, IMO. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6889 Registered: 12-2005 |
We stopped at the Packard Proving Grounds a few weeks ago for a geocache. Workers were there replacing a few pieces of slate in that nice roof. It's good to know that the place is getting some care. We also tried out the Packard Grill just north of there. The food was great and the service was better than I would have expected at the price. They were very eager to please. |
