Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser
Post Number: 251 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 6:00 am: | |
The auto industry just reflects the American environment where most Americans are obese. We need trucks and SUVs to haul our fat a$$#$ around. We have gotten so out of shape and fat that we can't fit into economical cars so we have to have behemoths for transportation. Americans go to the stadiums, eat fat and drink beer before going in and then sit on their butts and drink more beer. Instead, we should be going to the stadium and walking around it three times before going in. Detroit is the same way. Building big and inefficient vehicles that keep the auto industry fat but do nothing for the health of the nation. I told my wife about six months ago to watch as gas dropped real low during the presidential election before it returns to where it was before. The Saudis do this each election so that the price of gas doesn't become an election issue. But, the sales of SUVs and Pickups have already started to rise on this artificial manipulation of the market. The Saudis must really get a laugh at watching us keeping the demand high while they continue to line their pockets. Detroit hasn't figured out why a very large portion of the population buy reliable, quality and efficient imports while Detroit has been happy with the SUV/Pickup crowd and remained fat and happy...until now. A large portion of the population buys these 'better' import vehicles and Detroit claims that the reason these people don't buy American products is because these people are un-American, elitist, greenies. That's the way to do your market research! (sarcasm). Rather than seeing real proactive changes in thinking about how to get out of this mess and back on track, I mostly have heard people defending the poor past practices of the industry and lashing out at the consumer and blaming them. If that is all the industry has, then we are doomed. If someone can stand up with backbone and design a modern Model T, then we will have hope for the industry. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5599 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 6:13 am: | |
even the Model T ran on gas |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 1071 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 7:15 am: | |
The thing i hate most about this mess is the photos of the big 3 CEO's... They are always smiling and appearing to be in good spirits. At this point, they should be working for free... click bang! |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 1072 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 8:03 am: | |
More on CEO's...We need a public watchdog group made up of snipers... When one or two greed mongers get out of hand they take one in the chest!... |
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 156 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 9:15 am: | |
If they die, we all die |
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 628 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 9:16 am: | |
Bring the Overseas cars to North America, Like the Ford Ka and the Holdens. Use pre-existing engines we already have to take care of the emissions snafu. Heres the big thing: Keep prices low. GM sold the Holden-based GTO here but priced it too high. I just saw a website from a fellow in Russia, containing a bunch of older American cars.They love cars like Caprices and Grand Marquis' over there and even Moscow police cars are old, beaten up Crown Vics. Russian cars-like Ladas-are known to be inferior. Same with those French cars, like Renault.The big 3 needs to be more aggressive in the overseas market. We build more solid cars, plain and simple. |
Cocoabee Member Username: Cocoabee
Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 9:38 am: | |
Until the day Detroit builds cars like Infiniti & Lexus, they will never succeed. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 215 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 9:54 am: | |
When I was in the Russian Far East (in January), I asked my driver what type of car he was driving. He called it a Russian Mercedes. It was a Lada. That little car got us through Russian birch woods, blizzards, and crazy intersection maneuverings we would never consider here. Not only that, they handled very well in icy conditions at 80 mph. I am not kidding! They do love our cars but what they want from us isn't shipped there. They're also not fond of seatbelts. They throw them over their laps (I never saw the shoulder harness belts) when they pass police but never buckle up. If you've ever been to Russia and interacted with Russians, then you know that they are extremely picky people. They will pay extra for a bar of soap rather than paying and saving for ANYTHING made in China. Russian's will not drink anything made in China, do not want China's toy, cars or clothing. This was 10 years ago so we're only catching up with the garbage. |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1802 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:01 am: | |
And under Bush, we gave China "most favored nation" trading status. Any idea who this benefits? |
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:04 am: | |
quote:Bring the Overseas cars to North America, Like the Ford Ka and the Holdens Try and get that past the UAW. They will do all in their (diminishing) power to scuttle any importation on that scale. As advocated in the NYT op-ed posted elsewhere on this forum, a Receiver needs to be appointed that can rip up contracts, eviscerate inefficiencies, close up brands, and scale down the operations to reality. That means massive bloodletting in both the White and Blue collar ranks. That of, course, will never happen. Gettlefinger will see to that. The tax paying populous is already up in arms about the thought of bonuses being paid on wall street with "bail out " money.... just wait until a few shots of auto workers sitting in a room playing solitaire and getting full pay hit the airwaves. Good bye sympathy. Hello Waxman as Chairman and welcome to the Dustbowl. |
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 871 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:41 am: | |
Peachlaser said: "Detroit hasn't figured out why a very large portion of the population buy reliable, quality and efficient imports while Detroit has been happy with the SUV/Pickup crowd and remained fat and happy...until now. A large portion of the population buys these 'better' import vehicles and Detroit claims that the reason these people don't buy American products is because these people are un-American, elitist, greenies. That's the way to do your market research! (sarcasm)." Believe it or not, American vehicles are just as dependable, just as comfortable, just as efficient as foreign. The bottom line here is the fact that if the Big 3 go down, we all go down...plain and simple. Defendbrooklyn said "More on CEO's...We need a public watchdog group made up of snipers... When one or two greed mongers get out of hand they take one in the chest!..." That statement is pretty radical and I hope you're only being facetious. WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN! |
Clermont Member Username: Clermont
Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:43 am: | |
today's times has a front-page story exploring whether or not ch 11 bankruptcy wd be a good thing or not. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5601 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:48 am: | |
Higgs, you have no clue what you're talking about. European cars can't be directly imported and sold in the manner you suggest. US and European regulations and requirements are not the same. |
Otter Member Username: Otter
Post Number: 373 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:58 am: | |
Hpgrmln, I agree with you that GM and Ford should sell more of their overseas (Europe, primarily) product here, and they finally are beginning to, though rather late. The Pontiac G8 is a Holden, Saturns (minus the big SUV) are Opels, and Ford has some on the way. But it is not so easy as some people may think, as it is more or less impossible not to lose money on these cars if you import them from Europe or Australia or other non-NAFTA countries. This is a large part of why we got a redo of the old Focus rather than the current Euro Focus (Ford couldn't find a way to make money selling it here, even retooling the US plant) and why the Fiesta will, I think, be built in Mexico. At the same time, it is also important for them to design cars for the US market that will also sell overseas. This is a narrower way of saying most volume product should be saleable in many markets. The Chevy Cruze looks like a promisingly excellent example. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3613 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 11:54 am: | |
quote:Compare that with the best-selling vehicle in the US: 43,324 F-series pickups sold by Ford in October. Or the second-best selling vehicle in the US: 31,689 Chevy Silverado pickups sold in October. I bet the bulk of those sales were to government entities... |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 3111 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 1:47 pm: | |
quote:Bring the Overseas cars to North America, Like the Ford Ka and the Holdens Why Americans Can't Get Their Hands on Great Small Cars: http://comcast.vehix.com/autom otive/Article.aspx?artid=15B00 0000000022&cid=441 |
Chuckjav Member Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1097 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 2:58 pm: | |
"""Will The Big-Three DIE!""" Maybe this has already been hashed-over...maybe not. But......... Is this a question -or - a wish? |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2884 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 2:59 pm: | |
Quote: "And under Bush, we gave China "most favored nation" trading status. Any idea who this benefits?" We as US citizens have a right to know. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2779 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 3:11 pm: | |
quote: Believe it or not, American vehicles are just as dependable, just as comfortable, just as efficient as foreign. The bottom line here is the fact that if the Big 3 go down, we all go down...plain and simple. when did you speak for the consumer, the consumer has spoken and believe it or not, they are not as dependable, comfortable or efficient. Funny how this works, did you shed a tear when the steel industry, a vital industry, went south. Did you shed a tear when GM destroyed Flint to keep others employed. America will survive as it has when other major industries went belly up. It may not be fun, it may take a while but it will happen. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3641 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 3:18 pm: | |
For a socialist's perspective on the Big 3 Bailout plan, see Lee Sustar's piece on counterpunch.com. Let the Auto Workers Run Detroit! Bailing Out the Big Three By LEE SUSTAR The Bush administration's Wall Street bailout may be a prelude to a sweeping government intervention in the auto industry--even before Barack Obama takes office January 20. And if the government does step in to rescue General Motors, Chrysler and Ford--a move backed by top congressional Democrats--it will raise pressure on Obama to offer government aid to more big companies threatened with bankruptcy and underwrite the restructuring of entire industries. Already, Rahm Emanuel, Obama's pick to be his chief of staff, has joined Senate Majority Leader Henry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in calling for government aid to the auto industry. But if the companies get government loans or other assistance, what happens to workers' jobs, pay and benefits? Will, for example, the government finance a proposed merger of GM and Chrysler that could eliminate 40,000 jobs? Will the U.S. Treasury put up the $58 billion that the companies must pay the UAW to support a trust fund for retiree health care? * * * THOSE QUESTIONS loomed in the background as the Big Three automakers reported their worst monthly sales figures in years and huge losses. GM executives said that the company has $16.2 billion in the bank, but it expects to spend money for daily operations at a pace of about $2 billion a month. The company could run out of money by the end of next year. CEO Rick Wagoner said that GM can't file for bankruptcy to get protection from creditors, since consumers are unlikely to buy cars from a bankrupt company. If the company were to go out of business altogether, it would send a wave of job losses through manufacturing and car dealerships that could eliminate 2.5 million jobs and wipe out $125 billion in personal income in just one year, according to the Center for Automotive Research, a think tank with close ties to GM. "Letting GM go is a terrible idea," Wagoner said on CNBC. "Look at the effect of Lehman Brothers." More at: http://www.counterpunch.com/su star11132008.html |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2885 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 3:37 pm: | |
Quote: "America will survive as it has when other major industries went belly up." And Asia will go down with us. Check their markets. Import here are way down. They cannot survive without us. We're not in this alone. This is not just a US problem. We have the whole world's economy in our hands. Thats why they were all over here a few weeks ago licking Bush's shoes and begging him to do something about it with "The problem is in New York, and needs to be fixed in New York" |
Retroit Member Username: Retroit
Post Number: 466 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 8:22 pm: | |
Here's my "bailout package": The government sits down with the Big 3 and the UAW and demands large pay cuts across the board, especially for the executives. In return the government will give a substantial tax credit to anyone who buys a new domestic fuel-efficient or alternate fuel vehicle. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5608 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 8:24 pm: | |
Screw it. Get the money from Canada. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 270 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 8:46 pm: | |
What a great time to be an American. We are so hung up on hating our neighbors we will buy crap from the other side of the planet to "save" a few bucks. May as well rename the whole nation United States of WalMart. I don't have imported teachers or accountants, no way in hell will I buy a POS Toyota no matter how much crap about quality they make up to blow themselves. Those assholes are on the midst of buying back five years worth of pick up trucks because they rust so bad they fold in the middle. Their cars still aren't much better. Only their BS is. |
Danindc Member Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5214 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 9:15 pm: | |
quote:The government sits down with the Big 3 and the UAW and demands large pay cuts across the board, especially for the executives. In return the government will give a substantial tax credit to anyone who buys a new domestic fuel-efficient or alternate fuel vehicle. That still doesn't address the cash flow problem. Even with tax credits, people are still going to have a hell of a time securing financing for a new car, due to the tight credit markets. Time is definitely a factor. |
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2871 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 11:24 pm: | |
yes they will all be gone. |
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 11:36 pm: | |
Since most Detroit-haters, like the warmongering Tom Friedman at the NYT, are so smitten with Japanese automakers, maybe the US government should follow the Japanese government's lead in dealing with the automotive industry: provide universal healthcare, establish protectionist tariffs for the US auto market, and dump billions of dollars a year into domestic automakers for R&D purposes. Oh, and also put heavy taxes on used-car sales to encourage folks to buy new. Also, everyone blaming the UAW can get bent. It is never unreasonable for workers to demand fair pay, safe working conditions, and benefits enjoyed by every other worker in the developed world (except America). Blame Washington for failing to provide universal healthcare, which is a fundamental public service in every other developed country on the planet, when the automakers are crippled by retiree legacy costs. Don not blame the working class for the failures of the ruling class. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5609 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:18 am: | |
Good God, everybody thinks they know how to run an automaker http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ neil-young/how-to-save-a-major -autom_b_143749.html |
Otter Member Username: Otter
Post Number: 374 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 1:15 am: | |
Well, the bodies running our automakers haven't been doing too well..... |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 3441 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 5:32 am: | |
Chrysler giving millions in bonuses to CEOs and begging for tax payer cash - BULLSHIT. The Three must die. It will be hard, but we will come out better on the other side. Dont let the Rotten Three do to the USA what theyve done to Michigan. Notice how they keep adjusting the time when they will run out of cash ? It was mid summer, or next year - now its RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW ! Thats exactly how GWBush stole a trillion from us for WallStreet CEO welfare. In the past Ive worked directly with automaker CEOs, like Ron Zarella etc. (who lied about having his MBA btw). They live like goddamn Pharaohs. Lets stop the rollercoaster and let these dinosaurs die. Or we can have tax payers bail out Rotten Three CEOs, so they can turn around and fire those very tax payers. It is time for the pain to trickle UP. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 7926 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 6:51 am: | |
Millions of dollar of bonuses for Chrysler. While the auto workers suffer. Sounds like to me that the bosses of Chrysler want to take the money and run. |
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 872 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:25 am: | |
Mauser765, please explain your statement below and answer this question... How do you figure we will be better off in the end with millions of people out of work? From where I sit, the Big 3 have treated Michigan pretty damn good in the past. "The Three must die. It will be hard, but we will come out better on the other side. Dont let the Rotten Three do to the USA what theyve done to Michigan." The above statement is sheer venom. You must have really been burned by someone in the Big 3. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 1073 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:34 am: | |
I'm just calling for more responsibility and equality. CEO remind me of fat pigs that do very little and get paid a lot of money. ITs about money and quality of life. Workers get the shaft because of CEO leadership. Its hard to find examples were a company puts workers first. Argentina - Comes to mind when some 200 companies closed and kicked out all their workers...As time passed by the worker took over the factory and started production. All people of the factory earn the same salary and continue to work today. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5610 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:41 am: | |
I could care less about Chrysler as long as hedge fund swine have it. Ford says they're positioned ok. GM is the one struggling and part of that is due to GMAC's losses. There's no reason GMAC shouldn't eligible for funding under the financial bailout. |
Danindc Member Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5216 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:44 am: | |
quote:I'm just calling for more responsibility and equality. CEO remind me of fat pigs that do very little and get paid a lot of money. ITs about money and quality of life. Workers get the shaft because of CEO leadership. Its hard to find examples were a company puts workers first. I'd sure like to get paid millions of dollars a year for fucking up left-and-right. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 7930 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:44 am: | |
If the Big Three dies, Detroit and the suburbs die. Detroit and suburbs will become a instant ghost town in no time. It's would like the 1970s phase " Will the last person in Detroit turn off the lights." Do you all remember about how City of Flint died when GM screwed over 30,000 employees. It's was 1988 GM was a profitable boom. But GM's CEO Roger Smith had a ideal. Let's close down some of the plants in Flint. Open new plants in Mexico for cheap labor. Then tell the bosses at the UAW that they're are broke and offer up cash for the pain and suffering. It's EVIL scheme worked. After the GM plants in Flint closed down. Lot's of people move out of Flint. Some stayed and tried to face the problem, but ended up losing their homes and go into violent crime. Today Flint is never was since the boomtown era of the 1900s and I'm not sure there any more GM plants left in Flint. Word from the Street Prophet I see that United States is becoming like the Soviet Union. No jobs and quest for bread continues. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 7931 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:46 am: | |
The Great Recession is here and its for worse than the Great Depression. |
Sirrealone Member Username: Sirrealone
Post Number: 273 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:59 am: | |
quote:The Three must die. It will be hard, but we will come out better on the other side. True, we might come out better one day but it would probably be at least 10 years before that happened. There wouldn't be millions of jobs that opened up for these people to work, and those that did are probably going to pay less. In the mean time, blight would run rampant. All the people that lost their jobs would need to be supported by the government, so those who still held jobs would be faced with increased taxes. Meanwhile, since all of our government would basically be committed to relief for the millions of people out of work, our infrastructure would fall into disrepair. The sudden decline in economic activity would lead to deflation which is where prices fall. This might sound good to us as consumers, but on whole it would be devastating, because most companies carry debt to finance operations and that debt stays constant. So, deflation leads to less money coming in but still having an equal amount of debt. This would lead to many corporations failing on a scale much greater than we have now. I've heard it said that if the Big 3 shut down, that it could mean 10% of the workforce would eventually lose their jobs. This includes people at the Big 3, the tier 1 suppliers, then the tiers below. After all those people lose their jobs then the fun really begins. They're not spending anymore so stores will shut down, meaning more people lose work. Banks will shut down because of less activity, leaving even more out of work. The ripple effect would be tremendous. Let's also see, an additional 10% of the workforce out of work on top of the 6.5% we have now would be a 16% unemployment rate. That's one out of six people in the country. I don't know about you but I call that a depression. Plus, that 10% wouldn't be spread evenly. The east coast and west coast might only see 1-2% more. That means that our state and other rust belt states will probably be in the 30-40% rate to make up the difference. That's OK with you? I've seen people rip into BuyAmerican for his slogans and write them off as hyperbole, but it's laughable the short-sightedness that goes into that kind of talk. Because there is so much more truth to what he says than many realize. Face it, people, this country was built after WWII on the automotive industry. Many people here in Michigan and around the country made a living and built themselves directly or indirectly because of the automotive industry. Would America be even half of what it was without what the auto industry helped us build? Generations of people built a life because of the auto industry, but now that it's gotten tough, people just want to turn their back on it. I have been extremely critical of the unions and the wages and demands that they've put on the companies over the years. I think what they've gotten has been absurd. Yet, at the same time, keep in mind that the wages led to people spending and building and growing our country for years and years. So, while it might be fashionable to rip workers down for being greedy and saying how absurd it is to have made $100,000 without a high school diploma, that's fine, but just remember that all those people making all that money helped contribute to the economy that benefited all of us for years. While the excessive wages definitely hurt in a lot of ways, there WAS benefit from it as well. Remember this. It's not fair just to turn our backs on this industry. There have been terrible mistakes, but there's also been great benefits along the way. These people that you're just throwing to the wind every time someone says 'screw the auto companies' are your fellow Americans. They're the people in front of you at the grocery store. They're your neighbors, your friends, and most likely some of them are your family. I'm not saying that everybody reading this should run out and buy a new Chevy today, but for crying out loud, don't just turn your back without really thinking of what that means. Disclaimer: I do NOT work for an automaker so I have no personal interest in seeing them survive or fail, but I just know that the consequences of them failing would be felt by each and every person reading this. |
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 404 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 9:58 am: | |
Well said, Sirrealone. |
Otter Member Username: Otter
Post Number: 376 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
In one thread or another recently, someone asked about a monthlong furlough at Chrysler. There is no official word, internally or otherwise, of a mandatory furlough at Chrysler for December. OTOH there are some people at Lear who have a mandatory furlough for December, and some are off for November too. This has got to suck if you have a family or otherwise have a lot of bills. |
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 873 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
Sirrealone....Thank you for being so eloquent in your post. Thank you for understanding just what I have been saying for over a year now. You have my deepest gratitude. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2888 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 11:11 am: | |
Some of these posts are ridiculous. "The big 3 must die"?? Says who? Some of you have the attitude- Oh big deal, we'll just replace it. With what? Here is the truth, we've been blessed and fortunate to live in a town with such a dynamic industry for so many years. It built this town. Only a fool would argue any differently. Without it we'd be another Cleveland, and due to the logistic disadvantage, Cleveland would have been bigger. Some of you have had it too good too long and do not realize what is going to happen to the whole country if we finish pissing away the middle class building enterprise that is/was the automotive industry. China's imports to the US soared 9% just last month. In the midst of our economy on the threshold of total collapse, we increased whats killing us. We have traitors in our country. They aren't looking out for the good of this nation, they are here to line their pockets and our way of life is little concern to them. Open your eyes. |
Mrntgr Member Username: Mrntgr
Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2008
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:09 pm: | |
I sympathize with those who work for the Big 3. I really don't wish any hardship on them. I don't think anybody on this board wants people to suffer, whether they are in support of a potential buyout or not. However, the fact of the matter is that these companies have failed. It appears that their product has fallen out of favor with consumers. Despite the strides they've made in quality, the customer has spoken. Attacking them or accusing them of being unpatriotic doesn't help matters. If someone can make the business case that these companies will become profitable in a reasonable amount of time, I would consider supporting a bailout. I don't mean a list of JD Powers reports or news bits about the product being better. I mean some serious analysis rooted in finance, marketing, managerial accounting, etc... using assumptions that reflect reality. I mean reality, not the way we think things should be. If after that analysis we see an industry that can repay the money and thrive on its own, then it might be prudent to loan the money. It's the same sort of process they would do if the credit markets were active and they applied for credit from a commercial bank. Cooked up platitudes about "fair trade" and other rallying cries not rooted in good business sense don't count in this analysis. If they can not do that, we should not aid them in continuing on this course. Spare me the lecture about the effect this will have on the economy. We all get that. The companies should restructure in a manner that makes them viable. If that means job losses, so be it. They're a painful fact of life in a failing business, as is the impact on the community at large. The consequences of poor decisions are going to be felt, and they need to be felt. Everybody cashed bonus checks when things were good, so folks need to accept when things fall bad as well. This goes for the rest of the nation as well, as everybody else took their bite of the apple in the form of extra benefits in our community. We have to feel the pain as well. Not because I wish discomfort on others, but because we quite frankly deserve it. The government can prop up as many failing ventures as it wants, but it comes at a price. The more I think of it, this nation is like a junkie. It feels like all of these symbols of success and its trappings are hallucinations. Whether it's excess on Wall Street or Main Street, it's all built on a house of cards. This nation, and the Big 3 as a subset of this nation, needs to go through withdrawal. Even after that, life is waiting on the other side and it ain't always pretty. We can keep shooting up and seeing these fake signs of success, or we can get back to living and build something real. What you build drives America. Here's an honest question. I am not particularly informed on national security matters. What role is the automotive industry playing in national security right now? We're in the midst of two wars, and I'm wondering what role the industry plays in wartime. Not the role it played in the past, but the role it plays today and would play in the forseeable future. I'd like to get to the root of whether manufacturing might is as crucial as people say it is. (Message edited by mrntgr on November 14, 2008) |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3644 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:19 pm: | |
Wouldn't it be nice if the Big Three had, say 20 years ago, decided they weren't in the car business and were instead in the transportation business? They'd already be diversified into something else. But no, the short-term-gain thinking that prevails at the top means no planning, other than how to have profits this quarter. In the words of Frankenstein's monster: "We belong dead." |
Pinewood73 Member Username: Pinewood73
Post Number: 68 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:26 pm: | |
Big 3 should be bailed out because they did not cause the financial market collapse, the rising gas prices, nor the rising healthcare costs. These reasons, more than making too many SUV's or issues with the union, is why the Big 3 is asking for a bailout. GM is making money overseas, it's the US market that is dragging them down. Its about time Washington admits THEIR failures and actually helps the Big 3 reduce the country's depedence on foreign oil, instead of spending billions in Iraq. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2780 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:33 pm: | |
quote:maybe the US government should follow the Japanese government's lead in dealing with the automotive industry: provide universal healthcare, establish protectionist tariffs for the US auto market, and dump billions of dollars a year into domestic automakers for R&D purposes.
quote:universal healthcare With the employee paying a large share. The UAW balks at copays.
quote:establish protectionist tariffs for the US auto market Been there, done that. Infact one of the most hated presidents by unionists was also one of the most protectionists.
quote:and dump billions of dollars a year into domestic automakers for R&D purposes. Again been there, done that. Infact been there, done times a hundred with all the tax breaks given for plants. Stop assuming the grass the greener.
quote:We have traitors in our country. They aren't looking out for the good of this nation, they are here to line their pockets and our way of life is little concern to them. Open your eyes. Yep, they are the same people begging for billions in tax dollars for the car companies. They are not traitors they are hypocrits. |
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 599 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:46 pm: | |
Danny is by far the best poster on this board. Who else would think of a statement like this: "Detroit and suburbs will become a instant ghost town in no time." As far as the Little 3, no rosy outcome is in store no matter what. Right now millions of people couldn't buy American if they wanted to because they can't get a loan. The Little 3 exploded in growth far beyond what was sustainable. The future of Michigan is ass cheeks no matter if there is a bailout or not. Trust me, Democrat or Republican, a bailout is not going to come with a "business-as-usual" mandate. GM will cut 30% or more of their workforce, likely followed by a similar cut at Chrysler. If, and I do mean IF the U.S. and world economies stabilize in late 2009 as predicted, Ford should be okay as long as they make substantial cuts as well. What I hope congress is focused on is the least painful way to help GM re-organize so that it still exists, is profitable, and employs as many people as possible. I hope they also consider what to do with the inevitiable thousands of people who will be added to the unemployed. I also hope other companies seize the opportunity to capitalize on the chance to fill in the gap. Bottom line is Michigan, and to a larger extent America, can no longer afford to look to the auto industry to hold up the middle class. WE MUST EVOLVE SOMEHOW. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3645 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:57 pm: | |
I like Mike Whitney's take on it: The Self-Inflicted Crisis Paulson the Bungler By MIKE WHITNEY Henry Paulson's time at Treasury has been one pratfall after another. Even so, on Tuesday he managed to outdo himself. Paulson held a "surprise" press conference where he announced that the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) wouldn't be used to buy troubled assets after all. Instead, the money will used to bail out insurance giant AIG, provide extra capital for the banks to hoard, and now (this is the new part) give money to "nonbank financial institutions, like insurers and specialty-finance companies" so they can lend to credit-worthy consumers. Isn't that why we gave money to the banks? Paulson's announcement was like tossing a hand-grenade in a San-i-can; it blew the stock market to Kingdom come. Just minutes after the opening bell on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) stocks plummeted to new lows ending the session in a 400 point death-spiral. Wall Street doesn't like uncertainty and Paulson's sudden about-face sent jittery investors running for cover. The message to investors is clear, the government doesn't have the foggiest idea of what it's doing and is just grasping at straws. But Paulson's no fool; he knew exactly what the reaction would be on Wall Street. He simply decided that blowing up the equities market was worth the price of reviving "securitization"--the transformation of loans into securities. You see, securitization is Wall Street's Golden Goose. It's the foundation block upon which structured finance and all its complex credit-enhancing derivatives rests. Keep in mind, that all these exotic, financially-engineered products--the CDOs, MBS, and CDS--were all created with one goal in mind; to maximize leverage with minimum capital so that profits can be skimmed off the top. That's how Paulson managed to walk away from Goldman Sachs with hundreds of millions of dollars in his pockets. It's a racket. There's a myth that credit is contracting because the banks won't lend. But, in truth, total bank credit expanded by $575 billion over the past 10 weeks. The real problem is that the securitzation market remains frozen. As usual, another posting from, of course, counterpunch.com. |
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 18 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 5:10 pm: | |
With the employee paying a large share. The UAW balks at copays. I don't think you understand how universal healthcare works. The government pays for everybody's healthcare with tax revenues. That's how it works in all developed countries not named America. Been there, done that. Infact one of the most hated presidents by unionists was also one of the most protectionists. Who is that, and was he hated because of his protectionist stance, or for other reasons? Again been there, done that. Infact been there, done times a hundred with all the tax breaks given for plants. What R&D goes on within plants? Do you even know what R&D is? |
Ltdave Member Username: Ltdave
Post Number: 296 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 7:47 pm: | |
""The Saudis do this each election so that the price of gas doesn't become an election issue."" no, no. its the greedy OIL COMPANIES that jack the price of oil up. not the Saudis who actually have most of the oil... ""I don't think you understand how universal healthcare works. The government pays for everybody's healthcare with tax revenues. That's how it works in all developed countries not named America. " except that universal health care is NOT the panacea everyone makes it out to be. my wife is from Denmark and lived in Canada. she DETESTS socialized medicine/healthcare. the taxes for it are astronomical and the healthcare abysmal in many cases... |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2889 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 7:59 pm: | |
Quote: " the taxes for it are astronomical and the healthcare abysmal in many cases..." Or folks can keep the system they have, go in for some routine surgery, and get totally wiped out financially. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 224 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 9:10 pm: | |
Or in England, you can get your check-up appointment quickly but if you need surgery, you end up dying of ovarian cancer because your surgery is schedule for one year from your previous doctor's appointment! |