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Archive through October 30, 2008Docterry30 10-30-08  1:25 pm
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Docterry
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Username: Docterry

Post Number: 111
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BuyAmerican -
While I'm not the person you directed your question to, I'll answer it anyway because you are not the first one who has posed it. I choose to live here very deliberately over other places for a multitude of reasons - it is more feasible and environmentally responsible than driving a long distance; it is closer to the diversity of cultural events I and the family enjoy; it is no less beautiful than any of my other choices (where you look within a particular city or neighborhood counts); I believe it is important, as a person who offers community and culturally based services, to be a part of the community in which I work; but mostly, its the stuff that isn't based on objective observables - I like most of the people I interact with in the community here, we feel like we "fit" here more so than other places, we find more opportunities here than other Michigan locales in a lot of ways, etc, etc. What I don't understand is why so many people (not necessarily you, as you were responding to another comment) found it necessary and appropriate to ask, when we moved "back home" why I would *choose to live here* (emphasis from the questioners). I'd never think of asking someone that, in that tone.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 744
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Masterblaster there are some issues with your statement not so much the assessment of Buyamericans critique but much so more in your last statement where you say "good people have allowed the bad people to "drive" them out". This statement implies that Detroit is devoid of "good" people. I would disagree I feel that my neighbors and myself are good people, we may not all fit traditional roles of society but there are plenty of "good people".

Also in reply to Buyamericans choosing to live in Detroit. I am not from here, I moved for school, and lived on campus for a year and a half, and have lived in Midtown for the last half a year. And I choose the city because when I went to the suburbs I did not feel comfortable with the way the spaces are handled. I can walk to most everything I go to and I drive a short distance to school 10 mins, less than four miles. I live with diverse groups of people who are not the same as me, and I live within minutes of great amenities that I can not find in any other place in Michigan. I am young and I don't hold on to the scars of the past because they are not a part of my past, and I think that holds true for many young people who have decided to call the city home.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 3530
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm from here, grew up in Dearborn, but had spent a summer in New York when I was 17. After that, I wanted to go there, and I left "for good" when I was 21. Life is very different in New York. I had everything I needed in my neighborhood, withing walking distance, and I walked a lot and loved it. Great people-watching, lots of diversity, fun little shops, excellent transit. I had, in my four-block radius, a butcher, a pasta store, a grocer, a tailor, a market, a supermarket, a few restaurants, a burrito place. It was awesome, but cost $1700 a month to live in. I got sick of it and moved here, because I know Detroit is cheaper. And I found a place near enough Hamtramck to where I can walk to restaurants, grocers, theater, etc. That's the quality of life I crave. Walking to and from places, seeing people of all types, watching children of different colors play in the street, feeling that I'm living in the city. I love the scale, the chance opportunities, the characters, the way it's older and a little weathered. That's preferable to me. What can I say? The idea of living in a place where you have to get in your car and drive 10 minutes to get a newspaper or a pack of cigarettes is absurd to me.
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Border5150
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Username: Border5150

Post Number: 276
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: Chrysler is about to do to Auburn hills what they did to Highland Park...

Brag: you hit the nail right on the head? Could this proposed GM/Chrysler merger be the start of the "inverse suburb effect" people theorize?
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 846
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Masterblaster, thank you for your post. I want to respond to:

"HOWEVER, Buyamerican gives the excuse in response to Detroitnerd - "well people move in and out of cities all the time". Well, in Detroit, there are 20 times as many people moving out as there are moving in - and its been like that for a long time - And this makes Detroit different from all other cities."

I was responding to Detroitnerds post

"Hey, when people of means move OUT of the city, what's going to happen to the city? I'm saying that the city we were left with at the end of the 1990s was the direct result of people of means leaving it."

Detroitnerd is blaming on the demise of Detroit on everyone who left. Why is that? As I stated in my post above, when I left my home in Detroit in 1993 it was in perfect condition. When all of my friends left Detroit after retiring or changing careers, they left their homes in perfect condition. It didn't take any time at all before ALL of those perfect homes were in shambles. Why is that?

From the early 80's I couldn't get my garbage picked up. Services were practically non-existant except for excellent fire protection. Taxes were going up, my home value was going down. Schools were dangerous. My neighborhood, 7 and Hayes area was becoming a drug infested ghetto and the police had their hands tied by the powers that be in Detroit at that time. My family and their safety was my top priority and I moved to a community where I was able to take a long breath of relief and not be fearful of every time I or one of my kids went outside.

Docterry, I appreciate your post as well. Your choice is your choice. If you have the means to have a nice home in one of the more prosperous neighborhoods in Detroit, wherever that may be, then I can see why you say what you do. Of course, if you work downtown you are closer. I enjoy the diversity of cultural events, either in Detroit or in my community. Detroit is very beautiful in many areas. My home was there, I loved Detroit and its' history and historical homes and buildings. However, I've noted that for many years, those old historical places have gone by the wayside, neglected or burned out shells remain. It seems like not too many Detroiters care about the history. At one time I felt like I fitted in Detroit, loved my neighbors, loved my co-workers, loved my church. Things changed in Detroit and some people who began to move into neighborhoods made others feel very unwelcome and fearful. I chose not to live that way.

Incidentally, the firefighters at an Eastside station in the 6 Mile/Gratiot area never went to bed last night....but then again, this is common almost every night.
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 2334
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sure Buyamerican is truly ashamed that there are police available where he lives - after all, criminal activity is not normal behavior, is it?

He probably goes to the local homeless shelters and bitches out the volunteer workers also, since being homeless isn't normal either.

No doubt he does a drive-by sneer at local people in his area volunteering to pick up roadside litter - after all, the litter shouldn't be there, should it?

How does he live with all of this shame for his area?
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 847
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitnerd...What a revelation!!! You didn't even grow up in Detroit. Dearborn of all places. How can you be so critical of me or others for leaving a City and have the gall to blame Detroit's woes on those who left, insinuating that it was their fault the City is in the shape it's in today, when you didn't even live in up until just recently?
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 848
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan55...take your sarcasm and put IT where the sun don't shine.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 3532
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buyamerican: I think you're confused. Aren't we discussing those people who left LECTURING the city? I'm not trying to lecture anybody.

As a person who never left (my grandparents moved from Detroit to Dearborn in the 1920s), I'm arguing that I don't have the same biases that you may. But, for 21 years, I grew up around them. All around me, I heard the people who LEFT the city talking SMACK about the city. And it still doesn't make sense to me. I've lived other places. I know cities can work. And I know from experience that Detroit doesn't work because, with a carrot and a stick, decent people were encouraged to leave it.

We all get it loud and clear, Buy: To you, Detroit became a hell-hole that you left. But instead of looking upon it the sadness of loss, you seem filled with righteous anger. Not me, pal. I'm trying to pick apart your statements and get at what's driving that rage.

Guess where my right (called "gall" by you) to discuss your bellyaching comes from, Buy? From hearing it all my life from people around me. Where would I hear those people if not in the suburbs, Buy?

And why am I so opposed to that sentiment? Because, if Detroit is ever going to become the truly great metropolis that it should, we need to fight the complacent worldview that comes with dumping on the city. We really ARE all in this together. And true regional integration is the answer, not more barriers, more insults, more lectures. (And not the sullen "fuck-you" of the poor, either.)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12347
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh the humor of BuyAmerican’s ignorance:

BA lectures Detroiters for allowing this to happen. BA also points out that he left in 1993. The city hit its low peak while BA was a resident. It is abundantly clear that BA was one of the people that ‘allowed’ this to happen. You were a resident when this city fell to its worst, yet you have the gall to bitch about actions of the residents now. Sorry buddy, the city fell to its lowest level on your watch so you were obviously part of the problem. (Claiming you kept your lawn nice doesn’t qualify you as citizen of the year)

Now on a side note: BA blames Detroiters for arson in the community but is unwilling to show any empathy to the vast majority of Detroiters that do not set fires in their city, unwilling to acknowledge that Detroit is a dumping ground for Michigan’s mentally ill (a subset of who enjoy setting things on fire), that the actions of Angel’s night is mostly symbolic and a means for the community to come together moreso than stop fires. If BA would get off his ass and volunteer he would see the the sense of community that these events help foster. He would see that there are many ancillary benefits that far surpass anything that may be done on that single day.

BA let the city fail as a resident but now has the gall to blame those of us that live in the city and are working to improve the city.

Let me ask you something BA: What volunteer efforts did you participate in when you lived in the city?

Looks like fires were in the normal range yesterday. I’m glad to know that the arsonists must have unionized because they didn’t get much done last night. Probably sitting at the arsonists union hall complaining that they deserve more for the little work they do.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 8990
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Probably sitting at the arsonists union hall complaining



Local 666?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12348
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thiking that it would be the police code for arson but 666 works well
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Crumbled_pavement
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Username: Crumbled_pavement

Post Number: 586
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Originally posted by Alan55:

I am sure Buyamerican is truly ashamed that there are police available where he lives - after all, criminal activity is not normal behavior, is it?



He does not have to feel ashamed about that. People in his neighborhood don't commit crimes. The police are there because of all the Detroiters that go into his neighborhood to commit crime.
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 2335
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My, my, Buyamerican!

You're very quick to criticize other's people's efforts to make the City a better place, but when it comes back on you, you get bitchy. Must have hit a raw nerve, didn't I? You really are ashamed of your community, arent you?
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Bragaboutme
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Username: Bragaboutme

Post Number: 558
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Border5150, I don't know but it seems that's the way it's going right now. Many are going to lose their way of life. The fate of our region is scary right now, and I see it getting worse for our suburbs. There are predictions of upwards of 100,000 job losses. I don't have a job that is effected by this, but the trickle down affect will be devestating for those who do. Not just the workers themselves but the businesses that survive off of Chrysler alone will be effected. I just hope there will be a bailout for the auto industry soon after the election so we can know where we stand so it can soften the blow to this region. The unoins don't even inform the workers on what's about to happen cause they don't even know. Everybody is saying there is going to be the Big two soon I predict the Big one by next year. The community spirit is the only thing we can depend on right now, so I'm definitely proud of things like Angels Night. It shows that the community still cares about Detroit and the surrounding region for survival. The consolidation should definitely benefit Detroit, and if I'm correct the Warren area too.

Buyamerican, just think of why Downtown looks like it's been revived. It's because companies invested in that area. Mid-town the same way. Businesses didn't leave they moved back. Now instead of the doom and gloom Downtown there is a new vibe. Just think of how Detroit itself would look in the neighborhoods if people didn't leave in the first place. Just eight short years places that had 0 residence now are up and coming neighborhoods. People like Cub and so many others are reviving and sustaining these neighborhoods that you and others have left for dead. I don't blame you for moving. I do think it's wrong to talk bad about an area that wasn't that bad the time you moved. I remember 7mile&Hayes trust me there were more good parts than bad in the 80's. I respect that you had to move for personal reasons, but to say the whole area was bad is just wrong and the trash was being picked up in my area of chalmers and warren so I bet it wasn't that different near there. I admit now it's alot different but let be honest about Detroit.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1002
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroitnerd is blaming on the demise of Detroit on everyone who left. Why is that? As I stated in my post above, when I left my home in Detroit in 1993 it was in perfect condition. When all of my friends left Detroit after retiring or changing careers, they left their homes in perfect condition. It didn't take any time at all before ALL of those perfect homes were in shambles. Why is that?

Here is one theory: 1993 was the tail end of a massive exodus of people from the city of Detroit. When that happens, housing stock loses value, because there is far more of it than is necessary to house the population--supply exceeds demand. When houses lose value, their owners let them fall apart, because there is no incentive to do otherwise. If a house is a rental, and the rent the owner can charge doesn't cover the maintenance costs, the incentive is just to rent the place until it is no longer livable, and then torch it for the insurance and move on. If the house is owner-occupied, then it's entirely possible that the owner simply cannot afford to make repairs, and with the house's value rapidly declining, what's the incentive? They'll never get the money back that they put into the house, and there will be plenty of other cheap houses to move into when theirs falls apart.

When, as you put it, all your friends moved out of the neighborhood, that created a glut of available housing stock that allowed people far poorer than you were to move in. They saw the suddenly-affordable housing prices in what they knew to be a relatively nice neighborhood, and overreached themselves financially to jump at the opportunity, leaving no money for them to keep the house up when it started to get run-down. Or perhaps they moved in with plenty of money, and then lost their jobs or developed health problems. By all moving out at once (note the distinction between individual and collective actions; as you pointed out, one single person leaving a neighborhood at any given time is common and has no effect at all), you lowered the value of the neighborhood. This might well have coincided with the point in the houses' life cycles when they started to need major repairs.

That is one way it could have happened. There are many others. The truth is probably a combination of all of them. I just think that "when I left my house it was perfect and now it's run-down, therefore all Detroiters suck" is a tad simplistic.

(Message edited by bearinabox on October 31, 2008)
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 849
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But, for 21 years, I grew up around them. All around me, I heard the people who LEFT the city talking SMACK about the city"

So then it's not just me who became disillusioned with the City of Detroit.

"But instead of looking upon it the sadness of loss, you seem filled with righteous anger
Guess where my right (called "gall" by you) to discuss your bellyaching comes from, Buy? From hearing it all my life from people around me."

Again, people around you have the same opinions.


"Because, if Detroit is ever going to become the truly great metropolis that it should, we need to fight the complacent worldview that comes with dumping on the city."

Detroit WAS a great metropolis, what happened to change that? Not by me leaving the City in a mess.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 3533
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"So then it's not just me who became disillusioned with the City of Detroit."

You sound much more that "disillusioned" with Detroit. You sound filled with rage, which I think is masking something deeper. At this point in the discussion, I'm going to guess that you'll never admit the role guilt plays in your anger. "It wasn't ME. It was THEM, THEM, THEM!" That's not helping anybody Buy. That's why you have half these posts telling you to stow it.

As soon as I had the choice, Buy, I surrounded myself who didn't sound as you do. I surrounded myself with people who love cities, invest in cities, value urban life. And so when I hear voices like yours now, I'm going to make it loud and clear: I don't agree.

Anyway, who the fuck cares if other people feel like you? Does that make your small-minded rants right? No it doesn't. It means you, and all those who think like you, represent some great self-deluding mythology that, though so many white suburbanites over the last 60 years left the city to rot, they deserve none of the blame for what THEY, THEY, THEY did to MY, MY, MY once-great city.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 850
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Oh the humor of BuyAmerican’s ignorance"

Oh the arrogance of Jt1....you all must be related in one way or another.

You can't seem to get it through your thick skulls that I have said when I left the City, my home was still in beautiful condition and a year later it was a mess. No one yet has ventured to answer my question as to why did it happen. A nice couple bought it, I helped them with the closing costs so they could get it. They or someone else turned it into a ghetto house, a ghetto neighborhood...WHY?

If you want to say the City was at its' lowest in 1993 than I can tell you who to thank...CAY.

At least I had a lawn, a year later my home was a mud lot with cars and trash and broken windows...can you answer me WHY?

"Now on a side note: BA blames Detroiters for arson in the community but is unwilling to show any empathy to the vast majority of Detroiters that do not set fires in their city, unwilling to acknowledge that Detroit is a dumping ground for Michigan’s mentally ill (a subset of who enjoy setting things on fire), that the actions of Angel’s night is mostly symbolic and a means for the community to come together moreso than stop fires. If BA would get off his ass and volunteer he would see the the sense of community that these events help foster. He would see that there are many ancillary benefits that far surpass anything that may be done on that single day."

I paid my dues to Detroit. I did my best to make it work, but Detroit and CAY was bound and determined to do things their way. Today you see the results.

"Let me ask you something BA: What volunteer efforts did you participate in when you lived in the city?"

I can tell you one thing Jt...in my lifetime I have probably put out more flames in Detroit than you can count.

"Looks like fires were in the normal range yesterday."

You know that for a fact?
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1003
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You can't seem to get it through your thick skulls that I have said when I left the City, my home was still in beautiful condition and a year later it was a mess. No one yet has ventured to answer my question as to why did it happen.

I tried.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 851
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bear...I know you tried but it still doesn't answer my basic question. I understand people having financial problems, losing jobs, etc. That doesn't excuse trashing a neighborhood does it? You can be poor with one beat up car but why park it on the lawn when a driveway is 2 feet away. You can be poor but why do you feel the need to throw the trash out the front door instead of putting it in a receptacle? You can be poor but why break the windows in your house? I was poor once but I took great pride in keeping my home clean and neat. I respected my neighborhood AND I respected my neighbors.

You've seen the decline in Detroit neighborhoods I'm sure. Downtown is beautiful, that's where KK made his biggest efforts...he forgot about cleaning up the neighborhoods surrounding Detroit.

....And, I started this thread because I was horrified that it was going to take an entire army of volunteers, soldiers, police, fire, Curtis Silva from NY and his group, even the Post Office Police to control SOME Detroiters. That is a terrible legacy to have. Supposedly, when I left in 1993 the decline began. Well, it's 15 years later and it's not better, it's much worse. Thanks at least for an intelligent reply, it was very well put.
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Tkshreve
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Username: Tkshreve

Post Number: 653
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:
" I've lived other places. I know cities can work. And I know from experience that Detroit doesn't work because, with a carrot and a stick, decent people were encouraged to leave it."


Really Detroitnerd? Once again with your text you imply that degentrification is what directly led to Detroit's downfall. Why did these people leave? Why couldn't Detroit preserve its' citizens? Instead of being proactive in sustaining its' citizens, Detroit watched them all leave and now taxes them to even work in the city. Talk about irony.

"Bring your businesses to Detroit and we'll take our cut!"

I have agreed from the beginning that sprawl and flight were supplemented. But don't for one minute suggest that the city didn't implode on itself. It destroyed itself with two riots and a silly ritual of Devil's night. It voted into office some of the worst politicians it could have...... led by a carrot and stick of course. The best thing to ever happen to Detroit in the last 30+ years, Dennis Archer, was ran out of town and nobody raised a damn finger. A lot of the positive occurrences you see in Detroit today were set in motion by him, and the majority snubbed him for who else, but a carrot dangling Kwame Kilpatrick.

And Alan55...... your contributions are devised for one purpose, which is to get a rise out of BA. Shame on you. You should be embarrased.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 3536
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love how our society creates ghettos for poor people, where they can steal from and kill each other and live poor lives amid drugs and joblessness. And then, when poor people don't have the eyes of designers or the hearts of poets, they're blamed for that. What does our region expect when we decide, OK: We'll stop them at Eight Mile, but those poor people can HAVE the city.

His name is Curtis Sliwa, wasn't it? The guy who pulled the media stunt of kidnapping himself? I would argue we don't need his help here.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 5529
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Where were you when you were sitting on your ass typing your post?"

I think that I deserve some downtime.

I was thinking of all the times I and other community activists rolled up our sleeves and boarded vacant buildings, cleaned parks, etc...and I was thinking of the 3 houses I rehabbed...I was thinking of the many years that I put into making the city a better place...I can drive through my old community and see all the difference that was made, and I can point out buildings that are restored due to the efforts so many of us made while so many others did nothing.

So how much volunteer time did you put in? None?

Very well, carry on with your useless finger waggling.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 852
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^I have my leisure time as well.

I was thinking of all the times I picked up trash from my street and put it in the receptacles that was a foot away. I was thinking of all the times I went up to the park where my kids played ball and picked up all the glass so the children wouldn't get hurt. I was thinking about how I sided my house and was very proud of making the City a better place to live....but unlike you, I can't drive through my old community and see the difference that I made...no, now I see a devastated area that no one cares about. Obviously you've got more work to do.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 3860
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It means you, and all those who think like you, represent some great self-deluding mythology that, though so many white suburbanites over the last 60 years left the city to rot, they deserve none of the blame for what THEY, THEY, THEY did to MY, MY, MY once-great city.



HAHA! I agree. :-)

quote:

Detroit WAS a great metropolis, what happened to change that? Not by me leaving the City in a mess.



So our population numbers & tax base didn't drop when you left?

quote:

Buyamerican, just think of why Downtown looks like it's been revived. It's because companies invested in that area. Mid-town the same way. Businesses didn't leave they moved back. Now instead of the doom and gloom Downtown there is a new vibe. Just think of how Detroit itself would look in the neighborhoods if people didn't leave in the first place. Just eight short years places that had 0 residence now are up and coming neighborhoods. People like Cub and so many others are reviving and sustaining these neighborhoods that you and others have left for dead. I don't blame you for moving. I do think it's wrong to talk bad about an area that wasn't that bad the time you moved. I remember 7mile&Hayes trust me there were more good parts than bad in the 80's. I respect that you had to move for personal reasons, but to say the whole area was bad is just wrong and the trash was being picked up in my area of chalmers and warren so I bet it wasn't that different near there. I admit now it's alot different but let be honest about Detroit.



Trust me, downtown is still the same old doom & gloom. I call it a hard cleaning & new coat of paint, not a revival.

quote:

You're very quick to criticize other's people's efforts to make the City a better place, but when it comes back on you, you get bitchy. Must have hit a raw nerve, didn't I? You really are ashamed of your community, arent you?



LOL! Tell it like it is. :-)

quote:

The city hit its low peak while BA was a resident.



Wow, it pisses me off when people say that. DOWNTOWN hit its low point in the 90s, the other 142 sq. mi. were still decent in the 90s. When the 2nd big demolition hit the city in the late 0s/early 00s, that's when the neighborhoods started to look even crappier. Now with the recession, they're worse!

quote:

Because, if Detroit is ever going to become the truly great metropolis that it should, we need to fight the complacent worldview that comes with dumping on the city. We really ARE all in this together. And true regional integration is the answer, not more barriers, more insults, more lectures.



You'll have to kill off much of Detroit's population (suburbs too) before that happens. Sorry...

quote:

From the early 80's I couldn't get my garbage picked up. Services were practically non-existant except for excellent fire protection. Taxes were going up, my home value was going down. Schools were dangerous. My neighborhood, 7 and Hayes area was becoming a drug infested ghetto and the police had their hands tied by the powers that be in Detroit at that time. My family and their safety was my top priority and I moved to a community where I was able to take a long breath of relief and not be fearful of every time I or one of my kids went outside.



That's because people like you who left took away the needed tax base to provide those services.

quote:

HOWEVER,
Buyamerican gives the excuse in response to Detroitnerd - "well people move in and out of cities all the time". Well, in Detroit, there are 20 times as many people moving out as there are moving in - and its been like that for a long time - And this makes Detroit different from all other cities.



Very true.

quote:

Take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming others when you have no answers.



Well why didn't you stay on Hayes & 7 Mile & take care of your responsibilities? Do what you preach!

quote:

I agree it is way better than the 80's, but there are still pockets of the City where crime isn't out of control but still a problem. The difference I remember from that time is race relations, they are way better today than back then. There is alot of positive focus on Detroit and I'm definitely not embarrassed about that.



VERY subjective. The neighborhoods & downtown were denser in the 80s. There were national chains in the city. There was shopping. There was more street activity. We still had 1.2 million people. So please, don't say times now were better than the 80s.
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Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55

Post Number: 2336
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buyamerican: "....And, I started this thread because I was horrified that it was going to take an entire army of volunteers, soldiers, police, fire, Curtis Silva from NY and his group, even the Post Office Police to control SOME Detroiters."

- No, you started this thread in order to crap on people's legitimate efforts to make Detroit a better place. Sort of your way of making yourself feel superior.


Tkshreve: "And Alan55...... your contributions are devised for one purpose, which is to get a rise out of BA. Shame on you. You should be embarrased."

- Geez, another fellow traveler with Buyamerican, trying to make themselves feel better by telling other people that they should be embarrassed. No harsh words for Buyamerican, huh, who started this thread to piss on community volunteers? No acknowledgement of my first post, where I told him his views were out-of-date?

I feel embarrassed that there are negative people like you and BA who are trying to take a success story like Angel's Night and turn it into a route with which to piss on a recovering city.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 10462
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread wouldn't even exist if people wouldn't burn their own fucking city down.

Why should it take 40,000 people to keep assholes from destroying the city?

Please don't give me the bullshit that it happens in every other city, we are talking about Detroit and Detroit used to be (not sure about now) infamous about it's Devil's night antics.
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Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1005
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Bear...I know you tried but it still doesn't answer my basic question. I understand people having financial problems, losing jobs, etc. That doesn't excuse trashing a neighborhood does it?

My point wasn't exactly about financial problems or losing jobs. It was that in a neighborhood that is quickly losing value, there is no incentive to keep houses in good repair, especially if a bunch of major repair bills are coming due at once.

And I think people litter (in general, not just in Detroit) because people let them. Nobody in the neighborhood ever made it clear that they wouldn't put up with that, because all the people who were bothered by it either moved out thinking that would solve the problem, or gave up caring about it because as far as they can tell they're the only ones who do.

When I was picking up trash in Cass Park with Motor City Makeover, all the people who hang out there would walk over and drop their sandwich wrappers and liquor bottles into our bags. They went out of their way to throw their trash away instead of just dropping it on the ground like they do the other 364 days of the year. Maybe they would do that more often if they had the sense that anyone actually cared about Cass Park. And maybe people at 7 and Hayes would keep their yards nicer if they had the sense that anyone actually cared about 7 and Hayes. But the truth is that nobody really does. Everyone just keeps moving out.

The neighborhoods that people care about, and there are plenty of them even now, are a hell of a lot cleaner than the others in the city, and it's not because every last resident is civic-minded and well-adjusted.
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Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve

Post Number: 654
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's go back and look at Alan55's mind-bending contributions to this thread:

Quote:
I am sure Buyamerican is truly ashamed that there are police available where he lives - after all, criminal activity is not normal behavior, is it?

He probably goes to the local homeless shelters and bitches out the volunteer workers also, since being homeless isn't normal either.

No doubt he does a drive-by sneer at local people in his area volunteering to pick up roadside litter - after all, the litter shouldn't be there, should it?

How does he live with all of this shame for his area?

Quote:
I feel embarrassed that there are negative people like you and BA who are trying to take a success story like Angel's Night and turn it into a route with which to piss on a recovering city.


Boy, you sure know how to get too the root of the problem Alan55. First, I never pissed on the recovering city efforts. My feelings are it is both wasteful and necessary to provide such inputs into the protection of the city from a dying tradition. Call it wasteful, call it signs of recovery, they happen to be the same thing in this scenario. It could take twenty years of this policing to make us forget we like to burn the city down on that particular night. Maybe longer, but the efforts are necessary. BA makes a strong point. He doesn't want to piss on your revival. He wants to be the devil's advocate by telling you there in much more that needs to be done before you'll see the gentrification and business births that are needed so badly.
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Thames
Member
Username: Thames

Post Number: 279
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...in a neighborhood that is quickly losing value, there is no incentive to keep houses in good repair, especially if a bunch of major repair bills are coming due at once."

I can't stand that attitude. I understand that it's not necessarily your attitude, I'm just saying I hate it.

On the flip side, when times are good, people also have little incentive to keep houses in good repair because houses are selling like hot cakes and they figure why bother spending the money when it's going to sell quick anyway.

I think if you take on the responsibility of owning a home, then you take care of it. There is more to home ownership than just paying the mortgage.

Just because the market is down, doesn't mean you neglect your property.

I figure one day you will want to sell it and if you took care of it, it will sell.

If you're in a slow market and you HAVE to sell, all the better. You have a greater chance of unloading it before you lose it.

If it's a good market, you'll get top dollar.

I just don't understand why some people don't have the incentive to maintain their home. What the hell did they buy it for, ya know?
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Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 853
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bearinabox, Goat, Thames and Tkshreve I sincerely thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt without all the personal attacks.

Before I started this thread, I had watched the news and read the paper regarding the army that was gathering to protect the City from becoming a war zone. I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to burn down the place where they live and the stores where they buy their goods.

I worked many Devils Nights and Halloweens and saw what people did and how they acted on those nights. It was almost as though they felt they had carte blanche to burn up Detroit and not get punished for it. During more than a couple of those times, gunfire was prevalent and firefighters had to back off for fear of getting shot. I don't understand that mentality and I never will. It can't be dispair, it can't be lack of money, it can't be "I'm poor" that makes these thugs do what they do, I won't accept those excuses. We've all had bad times, we've all felt dispair at one or more times in our lives, we've all been living from payday to payday or cashing in bottles to go to McDonalds. I didn't burn buildings to vent my frustrations and anger, and I'm sure none of you did either.

Detroitrise wrote "That's because people like you who left took away the needed tax base to provide those services."...

That is simply not true and anyone with any intelligence would dispute that. When I moved out, someone else moved in and replaced me, so where is the problem? Actually, when I left Detroit the home values were very low. About 3 years later, they shot up and the homes in my neighborhood were selling for 25-30 thousand more than I received for my home.

He also wrote: "Well why didn't you stay on Hayes & 7 Mile & take care of your responsibilities? Do what you preach!"...

Not that it's his business, but I stayed there for 30 years and took care of my business and my responsibilities. Paid my taxes, gave myself, my time, and my life to the City of Detroit.

Believe me or not, I was born in Detroit, loved my growing up years, wouldn't trade that time for anything else. I still love my memories of Detroit and know that it could have been just as good today as it was back then. The potential is there. But when you have a mayor who rapes and pillages a City like KK did, have corrupt government at every turn, a DPS that is a disgrace and then, have to call in a army of people to keep citizens from burning it down, aren't any of you outraged by this? Some on this thread obviously have tunnel vision and don't see the handwriting on the wall. They want to paint a pretty picture that just isn't as pretty as they make it to be. The blinders have to come off and they have to see Detroit for what it is...in deep trouble. I paid my dues in more ways than one. As I said in my previous post...I would have loved to stay in my home. It was free and clear, no debt. But with different people moving in that were dangerous to me and my family, I wouldn't take the chance on staying and trying to "get along" because I saw that wouldn't work the first time I tried to speak to someone who was harassing my kids. Intimidation and threats were a daily routine, not only for us but for the other older neighbors who have been living there since the 40's. Who wants to live under those conditions? I certainly didn't want to walk around packing a gun for protection. Now I feel safe, at least for the time being.

Incidentally, there were many more fires last night than will be reported in the newspapers or on the news. A rubbish fire will not be counted. Only if a building catches fire because of it will it get a number. A car fire usually isn't reported as well. This is not normal behavior by people. I have relatives on the fire department right now. They worked last night and tell me they never went to bed, never sat for more than 10 minutes. Doesn't anyone care about those guys and gals who go out there every night, not just on Angels Night, to protect the people? I don't hate Detroiters, I don't hate Detroit. I AM a Detroiter but I am ashamed of it.
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Vantanna
Member
Username: Vantanna

Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't hate Detroiters, I don't hate Detroit. I AM a Detroiter but I am ashamed of it.


I Concur Completely!!
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Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289

Post Number: 671
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where i live which is by where Wayne Countys homeless and mentally ill were dumped awhile back, I know people who are losing or have lost there homes.They are keeping up there homes. They did and are doing so till the end. The suburbs will see alot more of this and you will get what you have in Detroit. Black or White in my mind people will only put up with so much. But to me what is more Sad then embarassing is the houses on the side of 8mi which looked kept up to me, But having to have bars on the windows, doors, that is sad.

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