 
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 599
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 9:12 pm: |    |
"How many of you here would want to live in neighborhoods in Hazel Park, Eastpointe, South Warren, and South Roseville?"
Ive lived in Hazel Park the last 6 years. Its all very working class and I'd say a lot of its problems stem from lack of financial resources. In actuality, most areas north of 9 Mile are much nicer than the south end. Notice how dingy and rough-looking John R is from 8 Mile to 75. After 9 Mile, its a bit more modern-looking.
Im yet to see a run-down area of Eastpointe, though Im sure the schools arent great.
Im more concerned about Oak Park and all the houses with bars on the doors. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 987
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 9:31 pm: | |
I agree that Eastpointe is a fine community. I worked there for 4 years and thought it was quite a close knit town. It is working class with many fine neighborhoods and Gratiot and 9 Mile roads are lined with businesses. I wonder how many people that cast judgement on many of these cities have spent more than a few minutes driving through? |
Cooper
Member
Username: Cooper
Post Number: 36
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 9:35 pm: | |
This is an interesting thread, but your analysis is outdated. Let me respond point by point:
quote:Okay, we all know that 8 Mile Road is the "racial" divide in this city. Detroit proper is mostly black and most communities north of 8 Mile Road are predominately white.
The inner ring suburbs on the west side (Southfield, Oak Park, Royal Oak Township, and Lathrup Village) have all been predominately black for some time, and the racial composition of the east side has changed considerably since 2000. South Warren and Hazel Park are now home to many black families. The only stark racial border with Detroit that remains today is Alter Road between the city and Grosse Pointe.
quote:Has 10 Mile Road become the new socioeconomic divide?
What's new? There are socioeconomic differences between the inner ring suburbs and those farther out, but those differences in relative wealth are longstanding. I do think the commercial corridors south of 10 Mile have declined (lots of vacancies on John R, for example), but the residential areas look fine. In fact, Hazel Park looks much better than it did fifteen years ago. And Ferndale's status is rising, not falling.
quote:If you tell anyone you live between 8 Mile and 10 Mile (think Eastpointe, Warren, Hazel Park, Ferndale, etc.), they think you're working-class or it's a deteriorating neighborhood.
Working class, maybe. They've always been working class. But deteriorating? A few roads, perhaps, but overall, no.
quote:No one would recommend this areas to visitors or new residents. What do you think?
False! Ferndale is great, and lots of young people and families are happy to live there. The other inner ring suburbs don't have the same vibe, but they continue to attract young families as they always have.
quote:How many of you here would want to live in neighborhoods in Hazel Park, Eastpointe, South Warren, and South Roseville?
I spent my first 18 years or so in Hazel Park. It's not perfect (witness John R south of I-75), but overall it's a fine community to live in, especially for the price. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3695
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 9:36 pm: | |
It's really only the blue collar suburbs that look crappy (Warren, Hazel Park, River Rouge, etc.).
As others have said, white collar towns like Eastpointe, St. Clair Shores or Ferndale are getting along just fine. |
Bongman
Member
Username: Bongman
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 11:16 pm: | |
If you examine real estate prices for comparable homes, I-696 is the new border between the haves and have nots, at least on the Eastside. A home in Eastpointe or Roseville is going for 10-20k more when North of the autobahn. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2473
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 11:27 pm: | |
not really.
growing families don't want to live near semi employed drunks. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 990
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 11:50 pm: | |
screw the 10 mile divide, comments like the one above show the true divide is EAST vs west! |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 4178
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 1:20 am: | |
Roseville is way shabbier than Eastpointe, and it's north of 10 Mile. Eastpointe is pretty well kept up for the most part. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 8:50 am: | |
The new dividing line of Sterling Heights has become the line between Warren Con Schools and Utica Community Schools. |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1916
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 9:37 am: | |
The industrial corridor between Van Dyke and Mound Roads is a much more definitive "dividing line" in Sterling Heights. Prior to the bursting of the bubble, housing value appreciation was stronger on the west side of town, driven in part by an influx of recent immigrants who wanted to own - not rent - their home and could now afford to do so. They typically choose to purchase in close proximity to friends and relatives who had preceded them, a pattern which has existed in this country for hundreds of years. |
Onthe405
Member
Username: Onthe405
Post Number: 77
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 7:13 pm: | |
"A home in Eastpointe or Roseville is going for 10-20k more when North of the autobahn"
Slight correction: 10 Mile Rd is the northern city limit for Eastpointe. There are no homes in Eastpointe north of the 696. |
Commodore64
Member
Username: Commodore64
Post Number: 262
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 9:27 pm: | |
No Trainman. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3710
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 9:32 pm: | |
quote:No Trainman.
HAHA! Short, simple, sweet, and I agree.  |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 793
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 10:49 pm: | |
I said a Possible and NOT the answer.
Do you want a NEW County Sales Tax for DDOT?
I do not, so do you want this???????
You must want this, so explain why? |
Drankin21
Member
Username: Drankin21
Post Number: 298
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:12 pm: | |
Yes Trainman, |
Commodore64
Member
Username: Commodore64
Post Number: 263
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 9:34 am: | |
For you, all of the regions problems stem from the fact that you can't get to Livonia with SMART. This has nothing to do with the original topic and its annoying that you spotlight Livonia every time you post. People hate the city as it is, you aren't helping.
There are better ways to get your point across, some are using Facebook or Myspace to do this sort of thing. Others put up their own websites and put ads in the paper pointing SMART riders to the website.
Livonia voted, your issue lost. Canton, Northville and Plymouth also do not have SMART service.. Livonia is just one of many areas where SMART doesn't go. Use DDOT to go to Middlebelt/SchoolCraft, you still have that option.
Livonia has enough problems. Quit putting us in the spotlight and trolling around. Its not helping your issue, this is the wrong forum to change people's minds.
Thank you.
(Message edited by commodore64 on October 09, 2008) |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3106
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 11:37 am: | |
People, let's stay on topic please!
I don't want to hear about DDOT or SMART on this thread. STAY ON TOPIC!
Now, as were saying, ah yes, what communities are starting to have dividing lines in this region. 8 Mile and 10 Mile/696 is a start. I had no idea that Mound Rd/Van Dyke are starting to become dividing lines in Sterling Heights. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 796
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 1:06 pm: | |
The point I was making is that transportation systems do define a region. Cities are were built along the shipping lanes and then then along the railroads and then the freeways.
The point is that the freeways have done very much to change our area and I think we need leadership in Lansing to help the city of Detroit by getting more businesses to locate there. The leaders of Detroit should work with the suburbs and our leaders in Lansing for the benefit of all. The point here is that there is no dividing line when it comes to family values and helping out others. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 396
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 1:41 pm: | |
What I want to know is: where is the "Uniting" line? |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 793
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 2:16 pm: | |
"The point I was making is that transportation systems do define a region. Cities are were built along the shipping lanes and then then along the railroads and then the freeways.
The point is that the freeways have done very much to change our area and I think we need leadership in Lansing to help the city of Detroit by getting more businesses to locate there. The leaders of Detroit should work with the suburbs and our leaders in Lansing for the benefit of all. The point here is that there is no dividing line when it comes to family values and helping out others."
Nominee for most coherent Trainman post? |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5667
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 2:56 pm: | |
Sterling Heights isn't really divided at all. The area Mike is talking about is the area between Mound and Van Dyke which is probably 85% industrial. There are a few scattered neighborhoods in the area....but if you buy a home in this designated census tract, you may get certain tax breaks etc |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1151
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 8:28 pm: | |
Did you here they're coming out with a sequel to the movie "8 Mile." It's going to be called "12 Mile." Ha Ha. I made that joke up myself.
I remember working in Bloomfield Hills in 1989 and the people in my office were talking about 12 mile as the "new 8 mile." |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3110
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 8:49 pm: | |
When I think about it, most of the elite/wealthy suburbs (with the exception of Grosse Pointes) are located north of 12 Mile Road.... |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 381
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 8:57 pm: | |
It depends where you are along the Detroit border.
I would say that Huntington Woods, Pleasant Ridge and Ferndale are better off than 10 years ago.
Huntington Woods and Pleasant Ridge have had big increases in property values since the freeway opened. They're as central as you can get, and you can walk to revitalized downtown Royal Oak.
Ferndale was somewhat trashy and redneck back in the 1980's/1990's. It still has that to some extent, but there are more gays and yuppies. Blacks have moved in which (IMO) has not been good for the schools but has (so far) not resulted in massive white flight.
Dearborn, the Pointes and Hazel Park are about the same.
Dearborn has seen massive Arab investment, though some parts look a bit worse for wear. Warrendale problems could seep south, but the growing Arab community isn't going anywhere.
I'm a little worried about GP Farms, Park and Woods. They will always be "good", but I could see them slipping from upscale to middle income. There's some white flight happening in the schools that feed GP North.
HP is basically the same as always. South of 9 is trashy and junky, but it's been that way forever. There are a few more blacks.
Warren, Harper Woods, Eastpointe, Oak Park, Southfield and Redford have all declined.
Warren South of the freeway is slipping quickly and could be slummy 10 years from now. Van Dyke south of Centerline is already a slum.
Harper Woods will be majority black in 10 years, which usually means at least some decline.
Oak Park (outside of the Jewish area) is not very desirable and is slowly getting worse.
Redford has always been a bit trashy and is now starting to look slummy in parts. |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1936
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 8:58 pm: | |
quote:The area Mike is talking about is the area between Mound and Van Dyke which is probably 85% industrial.
I said that this industrial corridor area served to form a dividing line and that the residential areas west of it had enjoyed greater home value appreciation than those residential areas to the east of the industrial corridor.
My larger point in this thread has been to to try and point out that such a large generalization as a "socioeconomic dividing line" is meaningless without data - and that when you geographically analyze many different sets of economic and social data, you will find that when overlapped, they fail to neatly form any kind of distinctive "dividing line". |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 382
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 9:04 pm: | |
Western Sterling Heights (and Eastern Troy and northern Madison Heights) are fast becoming Detroit's big immigrant enclaves.
South Asians, Filipinos, Albanians, Chinese, Bosnians, Mexicans etc.
John R south of 14 Mile is rapidly becoming a suburban version of Queens, NYC or parts of LA.
Plymouth/Canton/Novi is also starting to see some of this.
Dearborn is (of course) diverse but it's all Arab. Hamtramck diversity is mostly moving to Macomb. SW Detroit is diverse but all Latino.
W |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5670
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 9:09 pm: | |
I'd say 14/Ryan is ground zero for diversity in Metro Detroit. You havde very large Chaldean and Lebanese populations as well as Indian and Vietnamese all in that area. Sure, it "looks" suburban but it has a wide array of cultures. North warren still has large Polish and Italian populations but most have blended in and intermarried. I'd say Warren Mott HS has one of the top 3 most diverse student bodies in the area. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 385
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 9:14 pm: | |
Yeah, 14/Ryan is very diverse. I would say that John R has more diverse retail, but the population is more diverse at 14/Ryan.
Madison Heights is mostly working class whites. Most of the ethnic stores in Madison Heights cater to people from all over the metro. |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5671
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 9:18 pm: | |
^^True, but I have read posters on Dyes for past 8 years so disdain for that area due to the fact that it is mostly strip malls and gas stations and not like an urban setting. One thing is for certain....the hipsters will not be coming into this area anytime in the near future. Usually they flock to diverse ethnic places, but there is no way in hell some douche will leave his shed in Hamtramck and move him and his band to Madison Heights |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5672
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 9:21 pm: | |
And I will add that you will probably not find a more mixed diverse setting than Oakland Mall. You have the crossroads, literally, of Metro Detroit. Every income level...every race and background flock there. You cant say the same about Lakeside or Eastland. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7363
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 10:44 pm: | |
It's hard to believe that 2 of the townships that have some of the dumpiest residential real estate in Macomb County also contain some of the most expensive homes.
That would be Clinton and Harrison Townships. If you follow a 1/2 mile wide path along the Clinton River starting at Garfield & 16 Mile, and follow the course of the river generally along Moravian Dr. and North & South River Roads (excluding Mt. Clemens) until it empties into Lake St. Clair, you will find many fenced in subdivisions and thousands of homes that go for $250,000 to nearly $1 million (Villa Di Fiore subdivision on Millar Rd. near Moravian). |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2498
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 11:06 pm: | |
I think Crawford has got it about right.
So to answer the question about 10 mile, the answer is no. People of wealth live on both sides, just don't want to live next door to crackheads and unemployed people and in good schools, so they move to keep their kids safe.
Is this part of the reason for urban sprawl some complain about? |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 992
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 12:15 am: | |
"It's hard to believe that 2 of the townships that have some of the dumpiest residential real estate in Macomb County also contain some of the most expensive homes. "
WHAT? Dumpy real estate in Harrison? Besides a few areas NE of Mt Clemens and the southern areas of Gratiot Clinton Twp is a fine area. Even the Gratiot areas are safe and respectable places. What are you talking about? What does that comment have to do with anything? |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7366
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 1:30 am: | |
Fareastsider, just drive up Jefferson between Crocker Blvd to about 1/2 mile south of the Metro Beach (16 Mile), and you will see a lot of homes that are... well rather "low maintenance" in Harrison Township, even near the canals. Ditto for the commercial areas.
And there's that lovely area east of Gratiot near 15 Mile in Clinton Township, as well as some of the areas near Groesbeck south of Mt. Clemens General towards 16 Mile.
Granted it's not in disrepair, but it starkly different compared to the better neighborhoods in both townships. The differences are greater than in many Macomb County communities.
And my point is... that the Mile Roads are meaningless when it comes to prosperity. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 387
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 1:44 am: | |
Harrison has some dumpy apartment complexes and single family homes along Gratiot and near northern and southern borders with Mt Clemens.
Clinton Township has similar issues. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 6:49 am: | |
"Warren South of the freeway is slipping quickly and could be slummy 10 years from now."
Um. That was shitty 30 years ago. South Warren is politically separated from the rest of Warren "proper". They even have a buffer district for schools to keep the Detroit leaks out of Warren Con. (Fitz,Lincoln).
When I was in high school and we were exploring the City, we referred to the border cities along 8 Mile as "no mans land". |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3111
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 11:00 am: | |
I think Macomb County (north of 12 Mile Road) is slowly becoming another destination (other than Oakland County and northwestern Wayne County; Grosse Pointe basically has no new land to develop) for upper-middle class families to relocate. Maybe that explains why Clinton and Harrison still have some dumpy apartment complexes. Macomb County is one of the fastest growing places in the state, it's trying to catch up. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 993
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 11:06 am: | |
Gistok I see now ...good point. Crawford Gratiot does not go through HArrison Twp, not even close. Also the only border it shares with Mt clemens is on an eastern arm of the city and even then it is across I94, so those areas would be Clinton Twp. Upon further thought Clinton Twp is odd. I forgot about the Clintondale area. There is some amazing wealth there and some lower class areas. I see your point well now Gistok of how the mile roads are meaningless. Hell Fair Haven and Algonac themselves are pretty dumpy but there is plenty of wealth scatted around because of the waterfront and wealthier people building larger homes in the country. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 798
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 11:39 am: | |
"Macomb County is one of the fastest growing places in the state, it's trying to catch up."
The difference between Macomb County and Oakland County when people were actually building homes were two things:
1) Density
2) Wetlands (or the absence of)
In Macomb County, a lot of the new development is much more dense that in Oak. Co. In 10 years, Macomb Township went from a population of 22,000 to 60,000. In the same period, Novi, which was one of the fastest growing cities in the state went from 32,000 to 47,000. Why the huge disparity? Macomb Township allows much higher density development. People in Novi complain about homes shoehorned everywhere but they haven't been to Macomb Township to see high density single-family development.
The other big difference is wetlands. Where Oakland County doesn't have lakes, it often has wetlands. Between state and local wetland rules, those areas often are off-limits to development. In Macomb County, the wetland rules are few and far between and historically, have been subject to lax enforcement (the well-known cases being exceptions to the rule). Most of the land has been actively farmed too which means you don't have a lot in the way of either woodlands or wetlands to deal with when developing.
Ironically, with the enormous amount of development in Macomb Township, there's still active farms in the Township where nothing of the sort exists in Novi. Why? The very density that rurns census tracts in the southern parts of the Township a brighter orange than you'll find in more established communities also absorbs enough growth to keep the pressure off the farmers, at least for now. A review of the census tracts reveals some very dense areas in communities you wouldn't expect and less density in communities that we think of as more urban.
SEMCOG 2000 Population Density by Census Tract
http://www.semcog.org/uploaded Files/Data_and_Maps/Map_librar y/popden_small.pdf |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 388
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 11:50 am: | |
Novi is also wealthier, with people willing to pay for extra land and privacy.
Novi also has much more commercial land. Novi has a huge and growing commmercial tax base; Macomb Township is all residential. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 799
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 4:07 pm: | |
But it's true in almost all OC communities as compared to Macomb County. Those communities are the rule, not the exception. |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5674
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 4:23 pm: | |
Development in Macomb Twp has all but dried up. my friend bought a McRanch out near 25 Mile and half his subdivision is an empty lot full of weeds. The place will remain that way for the next 5, 6 years. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 994
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 4:27 pm: | |
I cant think of any new subdivision that has not ground to a halt in the last few years. All of them have stopped and are full of weeds. Some are just streets with no houses! I know of a few streets about a 1/4 mile long with not one house on them! |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5676
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 4:29 pm: | |
^^^ I know, and it will remian that way at least in Macomb County. hell, in Grosse Pointe the old Lodge mansion next to the War Memorial/Moorings was taken down about 2-3 years ago to make way for condos. Guess what...that site is still empty and full of weeds. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 803
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:48 pm: | |
It's the same here in Novi. I think there's one development that still has some houses going up. Otherwise, everything else has stopped and some of those developers have gone bust. The smart ones stopped before the bust hit. The optimists or those in over their head kept building even as everything was going down hill. |
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