Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » St.Joseph German festival « Previous Next »
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Pgn421
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

st .joes ,by eastern market,is having a german festival tomorrow.9/28/08 , mass ,food, music , beer
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The choral fest: http://saint-joseph-detroit.or g/ChoralFestPromo.html

Great place. Wish I could go.
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Terryh
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ill be there. Sounds like a great photo op. I stopped by to look at the outside of the gothic structure,have seen pics of the interior. Wonder what the neighborhood was like before the expressway. I imagine there was a German community in the vicinity.
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Gistok
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Harmonie Park, Greektown, Eastern Market and beyond was a German community in the latter part of the 19th century.
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Mikeg
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

St. Joseph Church:

steeple


church


interior

From the archives - more on the German community in old Detroit: Discuss Detroit: Before Greektown, there was Germantown
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Bearinabox
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those pictures aren't showing up for me.
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Bearinabox
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...and now they are.
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Gistok
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the nice pics Mikeg, and re-reading that thread shows DetroitYES at its' best... in this case sharing the varied history of our ancestors.

Supposedly the spire of St. Joseph's Church is Detroit's tallest church tower.
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Mikeg
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The photos were taken during their Oct. 22, 2006 German choir recital.

I mistakenly thought I could find that thread in the HOF, but fortunately it was still retrievable from the archives using the search function.
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Foosie
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nazis. I hate those guys!
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Mikeg
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you had half a brain, you'd know that the anti-German vitriol in Detroit started long before the Nazi Party came along.
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Terryh
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not all of us Foosie.lol. Thanks for the pics Mikeg. I plan on attending tomorrow. I think it was my great grandparents on Dads side that came from Germany. My grandfather migrated to Detroit from Oklahoma looking for work, lived on St.Antoine for awhile, married my grandmother, had a wedding pic taken on Canfield. Anyways, the church is an architecural masterpiece. The exterior of the church is somewhat dark and foreboding. Wonder if they would let us browse the archives I may have ancestors that attended as my great uncle came to Detroit with grandad.
Make sure you click on the link Mackinaw posted and listen to the music..

(Message edited by terryh on September 27, 2008)
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Foosie
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you had half a brain, you'd know that the anti-German vitriol in Detroit started long before the Nazi Party came along.

My my, insults from dumb shits. I am well aware of that being of Polish decent. My ancestors were from the Russian occupied portion of Poland, not the German or Austrian, but I know well how Germanic tribes long ago tried to subjagate and exterminate we Slavs.
Besides, there was this little thing called WW1 genius.
Oh, and braniac, I was being facetious.
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Foosie
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the line is from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
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Terryh
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lets not bring nationalistic antagonisms over from the old countries lol.....
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Foosie
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terry,
But I want pay-back!LOL
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, and we want Danzig back!!

But funny that you brought Poland up... German's not only built many parts of historic Detroit, but also Poland, back when they owned the western half. Danzig (Gdansk) Marienburg Castle (Malbork), and much of East Prussia, Silesia, and eastern Pommerania. :-)

(Message edited by Gistok on September 28, 2008)
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Foosie
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok,
yea we had nothing until you nazi... er, germans arrived. LOL
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Foosie
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 1:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

back when they owned

Those are fighting words from where i am from from. lol
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Mikeg
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Besides, there was this little thing called WW1 genius.


Hey "genius", what part of my reference to "started long before" didn't you understand?

"Facetious" trolls with reading disabilities - I hate those guys! "lol"
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Frankg
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terryh you mentioned about browsing the archives at St. Joe's. The answer is NO. But, the Burton Library does have microfilm copies of baptismal, marriage, funeral, etc., records.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terryh, I wish I could time travel to see the Polish, German, and black neighborhoods that comprised the near east side before the ravages of urban renewal. Look at how many Catholic churches there are from Jefferson to 94 from I-75 to Chene. The amount of immigrants had to be astounding.

Gistok, I've never confirmed this, but I think at 200' that has to be the tallest spire in the City. See it here.
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Raptor56
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

up until a handful of years ago De La Salle used to have their graduation bacceloreate Mass at St Joe's. I was one of the lucky ones who got to participate in that tradition. quite an amazing church inside. Really makes you feel like you're in the pressence of God. far cry from most of the modern churches in our suburbs.
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well until Foosie's anti-German trolling, this thread could have been Hall of Fame material...
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Pkbroch
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So many of these great festivals are mentioned here about one - two days before and the small ones are spread by word of mouth.

Perhaps on the connectthread or someplace we could have and on going festival list, we could post in advance these festivals and also mention the ones that have music and rides. My grandkids love those. Thanks.
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Townonenorth
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not all Germans were Nazis,and not all Nazi's were German.

Now that that's out of the way, Mackinaw, check out the 2 forums going now, Dom Polski:Dance Hall days of Detroit Polonia, as well as the one on Eagle cigars. Both have good info on the near East Side.

Also check out the HOF thread on the Early Ddetroit Polish community.

So in this German thread, does Austrian count?
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Mortalman
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

St. Albertus Polish Roman Catholic Church's spire was also 200 feet tall but the roof was repaired and the steeple shortened which were damaged in a windstorm just prior to Fr. Francis A. Mueller's death in 1914.
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Townonenorth, go check out the "Before Greektown there was Germantown" thread. There you will find the complex history of Germans not living in Germany. There were 15 million Germans living in eastern Europe (many in former Austria-Hungary) before WWII. So yes Austrians count.

They may have a separate country, but their culture and language is virtually the same.
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Mortalman
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Germans were/are the largest immigrant/ethnic group in the U.S. During the 1st World War there was such anti-German sentiment that many municipalities changed their name from German names to something else. Kitchener, Ontario is an example of that because it was called Berlin, Ontario until its change in 1916. This anti-German sentiment led to other German city and town names in the U.S., Australia and many other countries. It was a different time and people were angry and suspicious!
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even the British royal family, who's name was Saxe-Coburg (queen Victoria's mother and husband (Albert) were both from the ducal family that ruled Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, one of the smaller dukedoms in the German Empire) switched over to the name "Windsor" in 1917.
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Frankg
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most Austrians do not like to be thought of as German.
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Townonenorth
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's just relative really. Governments and all that.At the time my Great Grandmother came to America. it was all the Austro-Hungarian empire anyway. Technically she came from the Croatia region, but ethnically her last name was Austrian. Or so I've been told, anyway.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Queen Elizabeth's husband, Prince Philip, is half German and half Greek (Conceived on his mother's kitchen table). The original name was Battenburg but was changed to Mountbatten to sound more British. Elizabeth retains the last name of Windsor but is German/Austrian/Dutch. The name came from from Castle Windsor (originally Winsor...deed granted to Henry VIII by the Winsor family with their daughter, Phoebe Winsor marrying John Angell and moving to Providence, Rhode Island).

Btw, during WWI, my great great aunt, first of my family born here, married a German and lost her American citizenship for marrying a German immigrant. She had to re-apply to become an American again.
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Mortalman
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you want to get down to brass-tacks if we’re blaming someone for the 1st World War all of the protagonists were grandchildren or at least relatives of the British Queen Victoria. As you can see it gets to be quite a slippery slope of suspicious, superstitious, tribal blame to point the finger at others.
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mashugruskie, where did you get that Windsor Castle was granted to Henry VIII by a "Winsor" family?

I own a book "Royal Homes of the United Kingdom" which states "Windsor Castle has remained a home of royalty for longer than any other building in the world, ever since William the Conqueror built the mound in 1080 AD as the central citadel of a great fortress that would one day cover thirteen acres."

That's over 4 1/2 centuries before Henry VIII, and it has remained a continuous residence of the royal family for over 950 years.
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Sludgedaddy
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, but Gene Chandler was "The Duke of Earl".
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

William the Conqueror, grandfather of Henry, II (wife, Eleanor of Aquitaine - parents of Richard the Lionheart and John Lackland) are the ancestors of the Winsor family (through John Lackland, I believe since Richard had no legitimate descendants - I'm going from memory here). Normans, I believe.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, WHICH royal family are you referring to?
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't find Winsors anywhere... going back to the British royal dynasties... the Saxon (832-1066) Norman (1066-1154), Plantagenet (1154-1399), Lancaster & York (1399-1485), Tudor (1485-1603), Stuart (1603-1714), Hanover (1714-1901), and Saxe-Coburg/Windsor (1901-present). I've even checked the spouses of the Kings/Queens... found no Winsor.

I've always assumed that the "Windsor" family name decided on in 1917 was due to Windsor Castle.

Besides being a movie palace buff, I'm also a buff of British history (I spent 3 summers at Oxford taking undergrad/grad courses in the 1990's).

If you can find some source, I'm all ears... :-)
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, Sorry. I did forget to mention that the Winsor line are an illigitmate line so they're not royalty but were granted the land which was granted back. John Angell's father, also named John, was clergy for Queen Mary (Bloody Mary). I did not know if you were speaking of Tudors, Saxons, or Normans. Those are the lines I have to follow (in my head) rather than Queen Elizabeth, directly.

Also, Henry, II was William the Conqueror's great grandson, not grandson. Difficult when done from memory.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, being a fan of British history, you must know that Elizabeth had 13th great uncles, 18th great aunts who ruled and so her line zigs and zags all over the place.

Most people descended from Germans can trace their ancestry to royalty if they look hard enough. Elizabeth just got lucky.

As for the Winsor line, you would probably have to do research on the Angell line first because that line actually served royalty and is documented.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, you're making me wrack my brains and will probably be up half the night now. I hate when this happens.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah... those illegitimates... everyone from the Duke of Monmouth to those of George III's sons (didn't George IV have an entire brood from a Mrs. Fitzherbert?).

Mortalman, you are so correct about Queen Victoria's grandchildren being culpable for WWI, although Austria's Emperor Franz-Josef was involved too, but he wasn't in the family.

Also a great deal of blame has to go to the statesmen of the time under the rulers.

But as long as Queen Victoria was alive (died 1901), she kept her brood in check. Here is the last time the entire brood was together in Coburg (ironically where I was born) for one of her granddaughters wedding in 1894.





In the front row center of course is Queen Victoria, with her eldest grandson Kaiser Wilhelm II to the left, and the queen's eldest daughter (and Kaiser's mother) the dowager Empress Victoria on the right side.

Just behind the kaiser and queen are Russian Czar Nicholas and Alexandra (Victoria's granddaughter), who were not yet married, but announced their engagement here at Coburg.

Behind Czar Nicholas is Victoria's eldest son (in white coat), later King Edward VII. Other Kings, Queens and Dukes (and other of Victoria's children/grandchildren) surrounding them.

Also at the wedding, but not in this photograph was George Duke of York, later King George V (English king during WWI), who was a spitting image of his cousin Czar Nicholas.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mashugruskie,

I know what you mean. I have a huge 5 page foldout diagram of House Coburg-Hanover-Windsor-
Battenberg-Mauntbatten with branches showing the Romanovs, Hohenzollerns, Bourbons (Spain) and Hapsburgs.

With all that inbreeding, it's no wonder that Queen Victoria's youngest son Leopold, and Czar Nicholas's son (Tsarovich) Alexis both had Hemophilia!

Also the small Dukedom of Coburg had a great deal of power in the affairs of many countries in Europe... Britain, Belgium, Portugal, Bulgaria, and later Sweden. The mother of current Swedish King Carl-Gustav XVI, was a Coburg princess.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok,

You do know then that Fitz in front of Herbert meant that that was also an illigitimate line? I'm sure you do.

Btw, I am Phoebe and John Angell's descendant. I am also Kenneth MacAlpine's (Kenneth I) descendant. I only hope I look as good as Katherine Hepburn in my old age. She was magnificent in The Lion in Winter.

I have been to England and Russia so both hold a special place in my heart. I have been to the area where the Romanov's were assassinated. At that time, it was a little wooden structure but I've read it's since been bulldozed.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok

I think only Victoria's son, George, wasn't under her control. From what I remember, his affair produced a daughter who is supposedly the grandmother of Camilla, now married to Prince Charles. Nothing new there since "Queen Vicky" had a libido that would make most of us blush.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I loved THE LION IN WINTER. When they mentioned the recent death of young King Henry (eldest of the Angevin brood of Henry II & Eleanor of Acquitaine), I placed the year as 1183, when he died.

Wasn't that the first movie done by both Anthony Hopkins (Richard the Lion Hearted) and Timothy Dalton (French King Phillip Augustus)?

Richard wasn't the first "queen" of England. Earlier William II (Rufus) was also one, as were later kings Edward II (that hot spike at Berkeley Castle must have hurt like hell!) and supposedly Richard II.
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Terryh
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great food at the festival. The ghoulash could have used a little hot sauce, the red cabbage was tangy, had some kind of German roll that tasted like pumpernickel. Frau Grau and several other ladies roamed the grounds in traditional dresses, an older German who wore leiderhousen said he had to wear them when he attended school Traditional German music was played in the dining hall on church property. Two of the younger congregants were kind enough to give me a tour of the bell tower,which required a flashlight to navigate up the narrow castle like spiral stair case. Graffiti from the early to middle part of the last century decorated stairs in small rooms on the way to the top of the tower. I was able to take some pics from a window in the tower. Ill have them put on disc, so I can display them in photobucket. The courtyard by the rectory reminded me of a country setting.

All in all it was a great crowd, didnt' notice any neo nazis lurking around, some mixed couples, the congregation itself being slightly integrated,even the older Germans didnt' for the most part appear uptight or rigid. So much for stereotypes. Didnt hear too much of the choral concerts, couldnt stick around, had an interview, but was able to enjoy a good 4 hours.

Also I noticed a couple of names of potential relatives on a board with names of monetary contributors to the church. One of the deacons volunteerd to research to see if I have any other relations who may have attended or married in the church.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, I'm dense. Why on earth would neo-nazi's be there?
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Terryh
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many white supremist-seperatists are attracted to European themed festivals. I should have stayed in the student state of mind and studied sociology. I love culture and studying-learning about various sub-cultures in our country. I suppose some of them individuals could have far right leanings and simply werent displaying symbolism in the form of tatoos-patches etc.
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Mashugruskie
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm naive with this stuff. I don't follow it when I see it but I don't think it would get too far in Detroit, do you? Even descendants of Germans can't stand that crap. I think it's for the very small-minded and the lost, but what do I know.
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Mikeg
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Nazi", "neo nazis", "white supremist-separists"

What do these have to do with descendants of German emigrants to Detroit who are tying to remember their local history and culture over 1835-1915 which had to be suppressed during the war-time years?

Then again, what do I know, I'm only a "dumb shit".
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Tony_box_42
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry for interrupting this discussion.
The Choral Fest was GREAT! Had to be 700 people.
The Choirs, the food, the church tours and the
half priced beer after 6.We all had great fun.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Neo-Nazis at a Catholic parish's festival in Detroit? I think not.

Treasuring a heritage, especially with regards to its religious aspects, is more a fun thing to do and highly welcomed by people who want a respite from today's world which is so secularized and anonymous, than an occasion where certain people can revel in some sort of cultural or racial superiority. From what I gather, this is an occasion to drink some of the world's best beer and hear beautiful music.

Mostly it attracts history nuts and beer lovers like me...and people that go to the church (not just Germans anymore). I'm pretty sure that's what you saw there, Terryh!

I'd love to see the view from that spire.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 7372
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terryh, you must not have been to many German festivals...

1) aside from the "Ferris Bueler" movie... you will NEVER find Neo-Nazi's at a German festival... they wouldn't last too long there...
2) Hot Sauce is NOT part of German gastronomy. The strongest ingredient in German (or even Hungarian) Goulash is paprika.
3) Red Cabbage is always on the tangy side, although some German red cabbage recipe's use small amounts of grated apples to tone down the tangy flavor.

(Message edited by Gistok on October 11, 2008)
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Drankin21
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Username: Drankin21

Post Number: 301
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

im bummed I missed it

Naechste Mal!
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Jcole
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Username: Jcole

Post Number: 4083
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, thank you for spelling goulash correctly. I was about to do it myself,but you beat me to it
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Raggedclaws
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Username: Raggedclaws

Post Number: 236
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Germans from Russia" Interesting and heartbreaking histories.
http://www.ahsgr.org/

http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/ grhc

My peeps were from Volhynia region & lived at Poplar & 17th. Grandma used to tell stories about her left-behind aunties who used to send letters to her father begging for help, money or whatever they could afford.

Hard to do geneological research there, German graveyards are all gone. Ukrainians used the headstones to pave streets.

Complicated history there - Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, and Germans.

Rent "Everything is Illuminated", it's a must see.

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