Pgn421 Member Username: Pgn421
Post Number: 842 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 8:28 pm: | |
st .joes ,by eastern market,is having a german festival tomorrow.9/28/08 , mass ,food, music , beer |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5400 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 9:04 pm: | |
The choral fest: http://saint-joseph-detroit.or g/ChoralFestPromo.html Great place. Wish I could go. |
Terryh Member Username: Terryh
Post Number: 999 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 9:32 pm: | |
Ill be there. Sounds like a great photo op. I stopped by to look at the outside of the gothic structure,have seen pics of the interior. Wonder what the neighborhood was like before the expressway. I imagine there was a German community in the vicinity. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7318 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 9:59 pm: | |
Harmonie Park, Greektown, Eastern Market and beyond was a German community in the latter part of the 19th century. |
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1883 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:01 pm: | |
St. Joseph Church:
From the archives - more on the German community in old Detroit: Discuss Detroit: Before Greektown, there was Germantown |
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 887 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:02 pm: | |
Those pictures aren't showing up for me. |
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 888 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:05 pm: | |
...and now they are. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7319 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:20 pm: | |
Thanks for the nice pics Mikeg, and re-reading that thread shows DetroitYES at its' best... in this case sharing the varied history of our ancestors. Supposedly the spire of St. Joseph's Church is Detroit's tallest church tower. |
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1885 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:27 pm: | |
The photos were taken during their Oct. 22, 2006 German choir recital. I mistakenly thought I could find that thread in the HOF, but fortunately it was still retrievable from the archives using the search function. |
Foosie Member Username: Foosie
Post Number: 47 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:35 pm: | |
Nazis. I hate those guys! |
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1886 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:47 pm: | |
If you had half a brain, you'd know that the anti-German vitriol in Detroit started long before the Nazi Party came along. |
Terryh Member Username: Terryh
Post Number: 1000 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:53 pm: | |
Not all of us Foosie.lol. Thanks for the pics Mikeg. I plan on attending tomorrow. I think it was my great grandparents on Dads side that came from Germany. My grandfather migrated to Detroit from Oklahoma looking for work, lived on St.Antoine for awhile, married my grandmother, had a wedding pic taken on Canfield. Anyways, the church is an architecural masterpiece. The exterior of the church is somewhat dark and foreboding. Wonder if they would let us browse the archives I may have ancestors that attended as my great uncle came to Detroit with grandad. Make sure you click on the link Mackinaw posted and listen to the music.. (Message edited by terryh on September 27, 2008) |
Foosie Member Username: Foosie
Post Number: 48 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:00 pm: | |
If you had half a brain, you'd know that the anti-German vitriol in Detroit started long before the Nazi Party came along. My my, insults from dumb shits. I am well aware of that being of Polish decent. My ancestors were from the Russian occupied portion of Poland, not the German or Austrian, but I know well how Germanic tribes long ago tried to subjagate and exterminate we Slavs. Besides, there was this little thing called WW1 genius. Oh, and braniac, I was being facetious. |
Foosie Member Username: Foosie
Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:02 pm: | |
the line is from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. |
Terryh Member Username: Terryh
Post Number: 1003 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:08 pm: | |
Lets not bring nationalistic antagonisms over from the old countries lol..... |
Foosie Member Username: Foosie
Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:15 pm: | |
Terry, But I want pay-back!LOL |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7321 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 1:14 am: | |
Yeah, and we want Danzig back!! But funny that you brought Poland up... German's not only built many parts of historic Detroit, but also Poland, back when they owned the western half. Danzig (Gdansk) Marienburg Castle (Malbork), and much of East Prussia, Silesia, and eastern Pommerania. (Message edited by Gistok on September 28, 2008) |
Foosie Member Username: Foosie
Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 1:20 am: | |
Gistok, yea we had nothing until you nazi... er, germans arrived. LOL |
Foosie Member Username: Foosie
Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 1:22 am: | |
back when they owned Those are fighting words from where i am from from. lol |
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1887 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 9:25 am: | |
quote:Besides, there was this little thing called WW1 genius. Hey "genius", what part of my reference to "started long before" didn't you understand? "Facetious" trolls with reading disabilities - I hate those guys! "lol" |
Frankg Member Username: Frankg
Post Number: 646 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:48 am: | |
Terryh you mentioned about browsing the archives at St. Joe's. The answer is NO. But, the Burton Library does have microfilm copies of baptismal, marriage, funeral, etc., records. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5401 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 12:00 pm: | |
Terryh, I wish I could time travel to see the Polish, German, and black neighborhoods that comprised the near east side before the ravages of urban renewal. Look at how many Catholic churches there are from Jefferson to 94 from I-75 to Chene. The amount of immigrants had to be astounding. Gistok, I've never confirmed this, but I think at 200' that has to be the tallest spire in the City. See it here. |
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56
Post Number: 512 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 12:07 pm: | |
up until a handful of years ago De La Salle used to have their graduation bacceloreate Mass at St Joe's. I was one of the lucky ones who got to participate in that tradition. quite an amazing church inside. Really makes you feel like you're in the pressence of God. far cry from most of the modern churches in our suburbs. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7324 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:14 pm: | |
Well until Foosie's anti-German trolling, this thread could have been Hall of Fame material... |
Pkbroch Member Username: Pkbroch
Post Number: 134 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:23 pm: | |
So many of these great festivals are mentioned here about one - two days before and the small ones are spread by word of mouth. Perhaps on the connectthread or someplace we could have and on going festival list, we could post in advance these festivals and also mention the ones that have music and rides. My grandkids love those. Thanks. |
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth
Post Number: 219 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:32 pm: | |
Not all Germans were Nazis,and not all Nazi's were German. Now that that's out of the way, Mackinaw, check out the 2 forums going now, Dom Polski:Dance Hall days of Detroit Polonia, as well as the one on Eagle cigars. Both have good info on the near East Side. Also check out the HOF thread on the Early Ddetroit Polish community. So in this German thread, does Austrian count? |
Mortalman Member Username: Mortalman
Post Number: 357 Registered: 03-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 2:58 pm: | |
St. Albertus Polish Roman Catholic Church's spire was also 200 feet tall but the roof was repaired and the steeple shortened which were damaged in a windstorm just prior to Fr. Francis A. Mueller's death in 1914. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7325 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:08 pm: | |
Townonenorth, go check out the "Before Greektown there was Germantown" thread. There you will find the complex history of Germans not living in Germany. There were 15 million Germans living in eastern Europe (many in former Austria-Hungary) before WWII. So yes Austrians count. They may have a separate country, but their culture and language is virtually the same. |
Mortalman Member Username: Mortalman
Post Number: 358 Registered: 03-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:21 pm: | |
Germans were/are the largest immigrant/ethnic group in the U.S. During the 1st World War there was such anti-German sentiment that many municipalities changed their name from German names to something else. Kitchener, Ontario is an example of that because it was called Berlin, Ontario until its change in 1916. This anti-German sentiment led to other German city and town names in the U.S., Australia and many other countries. It was a different time and people were angry and suspicious! |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7326 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:33 pm: | |
Even the British royal family, who's name was Saxe-Coburg (queen Victoria's mother and husband (Albert) were both from the ducal family that ruled Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, one of the smaller dukedoms in the German Empire) switched over to the name "Windsor" in 1917. |
Frankg Member Username: Frankg
Post Number: 647 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:34 pm: | |
Most Austrians do not like to be thought of as German. |
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth
Post Number: 220 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 3:55 pm: | |
It's just relative really. Governments and all that.At the time my Great Grandmother came to America. it was all the Austro-Hungarian empire anyway. Technically she came from the Croatia region, but ethnically her last name was Austrian. Or so I've been told, anyway. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 49 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 4:17 pm: | |
Queen Elizabeth's husband, Prince Philip, is half German and half Greek (Conceived on his mother's kitchen table). The original name was Battenburg but was changed to Mountbatten to sound more British. Elizabeth retains the last name of Windsor but is German/Austrian/Dutch. The name came from from Castle Windsor (originally Winsor...deed granted to Henry VIII by the Winsor family with their daughter, Phoebe Winsor marrying John Angell and moving to Providence, Rhode Island). Btw, during WWI, my great great aunt, first of my family born here, married a German and lost her American citizenship for marrying a German immigrant. She had to re-apply to become an American again. |
Mortalman Member Username: Mortalman
Post Number: 359 Registered: 03-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 4:29 pm: | |
If you want to get down to brass-tacks if we’re blaming someone for the 1st World War all of the protagonists were grandchildren or at least relatives of the British Queen Victoria. As you can see it gets to be quite a slippery slope of suspicious, superstitious, tribal blame to point the finger at others. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7327 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 10:45 pm: | |
Mashugruskie, where did you get that Windsor Castle was granted to Henry VIII by a "Winsor" family? I own a book "Royal Homes of the United Kingdom" which states "Windsor Castle has remained a home of royalty for longer than any other building in the world, ever since William the Conqueror built the mound in 1080 AD as the central citadel of a great fortress that would one day cover thirteen acres." That's over 4 1/2 centuries before Henry VIII, and it has remained a continuous residence of the royal family for over 950 years. |
Sludgedaddy Member Username: Sludgedaddy
Post Number: 168 Registered: 01-2008
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 10:50 pm: | |
Yes, but Gene Chandler was "The Duke of Earl". |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 50 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:08 pm: | |
William the Conqueror, grandfather of Henry, II (wife, Eleanor of Aquitaine - parents of Richard the Lionheart and John Lackland) are the ancestors of the Winsor family (through John Lackland, I believe since Richard had no legitimate descendants - I'm going from memory here). Normans, I believe. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 51 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:10 pm: | |
Gistok, WHICH royal family are you referring to? |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7328 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:57 pm: | |
I can't find Winsors anywhere... going back to the British royal dynasties... the Saxon (832-1066) Norman (1066-1154), Plantagenet (1154-1399), Lancaster & York (1399-1485), Tudor (1485-1603), Stuart (1603-1714), Hanover (1714-1901), and Saxe-Coburg/Windsor (1901-present). I've even checked the spouses of the Kings/Queens... found no Winsor. I've always assumed that the "Windsor" family name decided on in 1917 was due to Windsor Castle. Besides being a movie palace buff, I'm also a buff of British history (I spent 3 summers at Oxford taking undergrad/grad courses in the 1990's). If you can find some source, I'm all ears... |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 52 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:57 pm: | |
Gistok, Sorry. I did forget to mention that the Winsor line are an illigitmate line so they're not royalty but were granted the land which was granted back. John Angell's father, also named John, was clergy for Queen Mary (Bloody Mary). I did not know if you were speaking of Tudors, Saxons, or Normans. Those are the lines I have to follow (in my head) rather than Queen Elizabeth, directly. Also, Henry, II was William the Conqueror's great grandson, not grandson. Difficult when done from memory. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 53 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:10 am: | |
Gistok, being a fan of British history, you must know that Elizabeth had 13th great uncles, 18th great aunts who ruled and so her line zigs and zags all over the place. Most people descended from Germans can trace their ancestry to royalty if they look hard enough. Elizabeth just got lucky. As for the Winsor line, you would probably have to do research on the Angell line first because that line actually served royalty and is documented. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 54 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:23 am: | |
Gistok, you're making me wrack my brains and will probably be up half the night now. I hate when this happens. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7329 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:29 am: | |
Ah... those illegitimates... everyone from the Duke of Monmouth to those of George III's sons (didn't George IV have an entire brood from a Mrs. Fitzherbert?). Mortalman, you are so correct about Queen Victoria's grandchildren being culpable for WWI, although Austria's Emperor Franz-Josef was involved too, but he wasn't in the family. Also a great deal of blame has to go to the statesmen of the time under the rulers. But as long as Queen Victoria was alive (died 1901), she kept her brood in check. Here is the last time the entire brood was together in Coburg (ironically where I was born) for one of her granddaughters wedding in 1894.
In the front row center of course is Queen Victoria, with her eldest grandson Kaiser Wilhelm II to the left, and the queen's eldest daughter (and Kaiser's mother) the dowager Empress Victoria on the right side. Just behind the kaiser and queen are Russian Czar Nicholas and Alexandra (Victoria's granddaughter), who were not yet married, but announced their engagement here at Coburg. Behind Czar Nicholas is Victoria's eldest son (in white coat), later King Edward VII. Other Kings, Queens and Dukes (and other of Victoria's children/grandchildren) surrounding them. Also at the wedding, but not in this photograph was George Duke of York, later King George V (English king during WWI), who was a spitting image of his cousin Czar Nicholas. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7330 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:40 am: | |
Mashugruskie, I know what you mean. I have a huge 5 page foldout diagram of House Coburg-Hanover-Windsor- Battenberg-Mauntbatten with branches showing the Romanovs, Hohenzollerns, Bourbons (Spain) and Hapsburgs. With all that inbreeding, it's no wonder that Queen Victoria's youngest son Leopold, and Czar Nicholas's son (Tsarovich) Alexis both had Hemophilia! Also the small Dukedom of Coburg had a great deal of power in the affairs of many countries in Europe... Britain, Belgium, Portugal, Bulgaria, and later Sweden. The mother of current Swedish King Carl-Gustav XVI, was a Coburg princess. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 55 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 12:54 am: | |
Gistok, You do know then that Fitz in front of Herbert meant that that was also an illigitimate line? I'm sure you do. Btw, I am Phoebe and John Angell's descendant. I am also Kenneth MacAlpine's (Kenneth I) descendant. I only hope I look as good as Katherine Hepburn in my old age. She was magnificent in The Lion in Winter. I have been to England and Russia so both hold a special place in my heart. I have been to the area where the Romanov's were assassinated. At that time, it was a little wooden structure but I've read it's since been bulldozed. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 56 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:00 am: | |
Gistok I think only Victoria's son, George, wasn't under her control. From what I remember, his affair produced a daughter who is supposedly the grandmother of Camilla, now married to Prince Charles. Nothing new there since "Queen Vicky" had a libido that would make most of us blush. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7331 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:08 am: | |
I loved THE LION IN WINTER. When they mentioned the recent death of young King Henry (eldest of the Angevin brood of Henry II & Eleanor of Acquitaine), I placed the year as 1183, when he died. Wasn't that the first movie done by both Anthony Hopkins (Richard the Lion Hearted) and Timothy Dalton (French King Phillip Augustus)? Richard wasn't the first "queen" of England. Earlier William II (Rufus) was also one, as were later kings Edward II (that hot spike at Berkeley Castle must have hurt like hell!) and supposedly Richard II. |
Terryh Member Username: Terryh
Post Number: 1005 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:23 pm: | |
Great food at the festival. The ghoulash could have used a little hot sauce, the red cabbage was tangy, had some kind of German roll that tasted like pumpernickel. Frau Grau and several other ladies roamed the grounds in traditional dresses, an older German who wore leiderhousen said he had to wear them when he attended school Traditional German music was played in the dining hall on church property. Two of the younger congregants were kind enough to give me a tour of the bell tower,which required a flashlight to navigate up the narrow castle like spiral stair case. Graffiti from the early to middle part of the last century decorated stairs in small rooms on the way to the top of the tower. I was able to take some pics from a window in the tower. Ill have them put on disc, so I can display them in photobucket. The courtyard by the rectory reminded me of a country setting. All in all it was a great crowd, didnt' notice any neo nazis lurking around, some mixed couples, the congregation itself being slightly integrated,even the older Germans didnt' for the most part appear uptight or rigid. So much for stereotypes. Didnt hear too much of the choral concerts, couldnt stick around, had an interview, but was able to enjoy a good 4 hours. Also I noticed a couple of names of potential relatives on a board with names of monetary contributors to the church. One of the deacons volunteerd to research to see if I have any other relations who may have attended or married in the church. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 58 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 1:32 pm: | |
Okay, I'm dense. Why on earth would neo-nazi's be there? |
Terryh Member Username: Terryh
Post Number: 1006 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 2:05 pm: | |
Many white supremist-seperatists are attracted to European themed festivals. I should have stayed in the student state of mind and studied sociology. I love culture and studying-learning about various sub-cultures in our country. I suppose some of them individuals could have far right leanings and simply werent displaying symbolism in the form of tatoos-patches etc. |
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 59 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 4:54 pm: | |
I'm naive with this stuff. I don't follow it when I see it but I don't think it would get too far in Detroit, do you? Even descendants of Germans can't stand that crap. I think it's for the very small-minded and the lost, but what do I know. |
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1896 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 9:31 pm: | |
"Nazi", "neo nazis", "white supremist-separists" What do these have to do with descendants of German emigrants to Detroit who are tying to remember their local history and culture over 1835-1915 which had to be suppressed during the war-time years? Then again, what do I know, I'm only a "dumb shit". |
Tony_box_42 Member Username: Tony_box_42
Post Number: 174 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 10:00 pm: | |
I am sorry for interrupting this discussion. The Choral Fest was GREAT! Had to be 700 people. The Choirs, the food, the church tours and the half priced beer after 6.We all had great fun. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5405 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 10:04 pm: | |
Neo-Nazis at a Catholic parish's festival in Detroit? I think not. Treasuring a heritage, especially with regards to its religious aspects, is more a fun thing to do and highly welcomed by people who want a respite from today's world which is so secularized and anonymous, than an occasion where certain people can revel in some sort of cultural or racial superiority. From what I gather, this is an occasion to drink some of the world's best beer and hear beautiful music. Mostly it attracts history nuts and beer lovers like me...and people that go to the church (not just Germans anymore). I'm pretty sure that's what you saw there, Terryh! I'd love to see the view from that spire. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7372 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 1:20 pm: | |
Terryh, you must not have been to many German festivals... 1) aside from the "Ferris Bueler" movie... you will NEVER find Neo-Nazi's at a German festival... they wouldn't last too long there... 2) Hot Sauce is NOT part of German gastronomy. The strongest ingredient in German (or even Hungarian) Goulash is paprika. 3) Red Cabbage is always on the tangy side, although some German red cabbage recipe's use small amounts of grated apples to tone down the tangy flavor. (Message edited by Gistok on October 11, 2008) |
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21
Post Number: 301 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 1:36 pm: | |
im bummed I missed it Naechste Mal! |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 4083 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 2:47 pm: | |
Gistok, thank you for spelling goulash correctly. I was about to do it myself,but you beat me to it |
Raggedclaws Member Username: Raggedclaws
Post Number: 236 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 4:11 pm: | |
"Germans from Russia" Interesting and heartbreaking histories. http://www.ahsgr.org/ http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/ grhc My peeps were from Volhynia region & lived at Poplar & 17th. Grandma used to tell stories about her left-behind aunties who used to send letters to her father begging for help, money or whatever they could afford. Hard to do geneological research there, German graveyards are all gone. Ukrainians used the headstones to pave streets. Complicated history there - Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, and Germans. Rent "Everything is Illuminated", it's a must see. |