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Archive through August 31, 2008Tayshaun2230 08-31-08  10:58 pm
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Xphillipjrx
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Username: Xphillipjrx

Post Number: 158
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you have problems with Detroiters following UM you should see how Chicago jocks Notre Dame.
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Elimarr
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Post Number: 74
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I probably don't belong on this thread. I don't even like football. Yeah, I've been to a UM game, just once mind you because I really liked selling my season tickets for way more than I paid for them. Not a slimy scalper, just a penniless student.
Anyway, I did watch that game on t.v. a couple years ago with "big rival" OSU right after Bo had died. Just morbid curiosity whether they could pull off a win under the circumstances. Maybe that was the closest I came to "caring" because I did root for UM. (Am I disqualified for not residing in Detroit at that time?)
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Scooter2k7
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Post Number: 132
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Posted on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 4:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Michigan football is boring football"

Isn't this more of an opinion than a fact. How can 108,000 people be wrong? But I guess its possible!
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Border5150
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Post Number: 228
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Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's proximity. Ann Arbor is closer to Detroit than East Lansing.

The winning part doesn't hurt either. U of M is the WINNINGEST football program in the United States.
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Rjlj
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Post Number: 656
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Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I must say that Crawford has started the worst thread of 2008 and the points that he makes are even worse.

1. College football is minor league football.
2. We have an NFL franchise.
3. Michigan isn't that good.
4. Michigan is in Ann Arbor, not Detroit.
5. Michigan football is boring football.
6. Michigan crowds are corporate and docile.
7. Metro Detroit does not have that many alums
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Crawford
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Post Number: 333
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Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rjlj, please indicate which of my seven points are inaccurate.

Is it your contention that Detroit doesn't have an NFL franchise? Do you believe that Michigan alums are less global than Wayne grads? Is college football somehow "major league"?

I think the biggest reasoning for the press and following (and corresponding defensiveness absent an argument from posters such as Rjlj)is the perception of a winner. Everyone loves a winner.

Case in point: on Sunday, with a hurricane looming, Kwame agreeing to a plea, and a VP candidate ensnared in scandal, the web headlines for BOTH the Freep and Detnews were the Michigan loss.
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Youngprofessionaldetroiter
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Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter

Post Number: 233
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pageantry, affiliation, tradition, excellence.
YPD

p.s. a shoutout to a fellow alum in 2000s, for year-round, in-depth, coverage -- from recruiting to play-by-play reviews -- written with the wit of the Onion but the passion of Sports Illustrated, go to www.mgoblog.com

Over 15,000 visitors a month can't be wrong.
(http://www.statsaholic.com/mgo blog.com)

(Message edited by youngprofessionaldetroiter on September 03, 2008)
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Brizee
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Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eff SCum

Go Green.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 6720
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Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

We have an NFL franchise.



That's debatable at best.
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El_jimbo
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Post Number: 752
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Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The "large alumni" base is about the only argument I can really counter. The Freep did a story a few years back comparing MSU vs UM alumni (not "fans" just alumni) by county. It turned out that only 3 counties statewide had more UM alumni than MSU. Those counties were Genessee, Wayne, and Washtenaw counties. Every other county had more MSU alumni than UM alumni. Also, I don't know if they asked this question, but I would bet that a large group of those "UM alumni" in Wayne and Genessee county actually went to UM-Dearborn or UM-Flint, which are not really the University of Michigan.

As a Spartan fan the one thing I do find amazing is how so many, even very young, Michigan "fans" wrap themselves around the whole "most successful college program in history" bit. The problem with that is in the early days of college football, not many colleges had teams and the colleges that did sometimes played against teams that weren't colleges at all. Some of the wins that Michigan has padded its "illustrious" record with were teams like Camp Grant in 1943 (this was a boot camp during WWII), The Detroit Athletic Club in 1888, 1890, twice in 1893 and 1895, Chicago AA in 1889, Chicago AC in 1891, Cleveland AC in 1891, Iowa Pre-Flight in 1942 and 1944, Michigan AA twice in 1892, Michigan Military Academy twice in 1894 and once in 1895, the "Peninsulars" in 1895, Quantico Marines in 1923, and The Windsor Club twice in 1885.

The real kickers, however, are this. Michigan also played Ann Arbor High School in 1891 and Grand Rapids High School in 1896. Why should wins against high school teams count?

The point of all of this is that It really wasn't until 1945, after WWII when college football became more standardized and the "modern" era began. If you want to talk about real, legitimate college football as it is today, the most successful team is the Oklahoma Sooners with 510 wins since 1945. Michigan is not even in the top 5

1. Oklahoma Sooners 510 wins
2. Texas Longhorns 488 wins
3. Ohio State Buckeye 485 wins
4. Penn State Nittany Lions 483 wins
5. Nebraska Cornhuskers 480 wins
6. Michigan Wolverines 479 wins

There is no question that Michigan is a good program but this notion that they are the most successful program is absurd. Counting wins from an era where teams could play damn near anybody shouldn't count.
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1kielsondrive
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Username: 1kielsondrive

Post Number: 172
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, who cares? Michigan is my team and my university. UoM is much better in just about everything than any of the others you mention. Most of them being the equivalent of small state schools rather than the major state universities that they are. Other than the cancer center at UT, what schools at any of them are of any consequence? There may be a few. What does this have to do with football? Michigan excels at almost everything they do. They may not be the best at everything, but they do damn good. Some things Michigan is always top rated at: law, engineering, medicine, business, education, natural resources, public health, and then softball, baseball, hockey, marching band. UoM is the only game in this town. Or, is it the Tigers? The Lions?
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Gibran
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Post Number: 3939
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Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

stanley edwards was a great athlete as a high school er in Detroit, we met on a variety of fronts, together we represented our respective schools in the 70's to help stop the cutting of programs by the school board...i followed his career awhile as we went off to college...( I will always be a UM fan) watched the games from the dorms of NMU....

flash forward decades: while listening to a Michigan game the name edwards surfaced again, this time it was braylan-stan's son. Life is funny but one thing is constant, U of M football seasons start with a tradition that every young person can dream of...whether it is UM or UT or whatever the program....as I moved around the country, and went to others schools to get advanced degrees, my totally loyalty became divided, but not by much...thank God I went to a SEC school..now I will be only tested at bowl game...

I guess I could be known and a bluehog fan....because you can't take the Michigan out of anyone who has rooted for them as a child...my two sons root for them and only one was born in Michigan...

The sad thing is that it is so hard after a loss..it really sets the tone for the season...
Bo left a legacy of coaches and it was a sad day when we didn't hire a Michigan man..or kept one.
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1kielsondrive
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Post Number: 189
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Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've had few times in my life as enjoyable as tailgating, UoM Marching Band and games at the 'Big House'. Even the coldest, snowiest, darkest games - Bernie Kolasar hauling in the winning pass, under the lights on a freezing, snowy night, against the big, bad, buckeye nuts or Anthony 'chicken legs' Carter catching the 'O time on the clock' pass to win vs Indiana and a thoroughly pissed off Lee Corso. Corso had a right to be pissed off - the Hoosiers were robbed in the last two plays. One of which was the illegit fumble out of bounds (I was almost directly behind Corso, I think it literally hit him) that set up the legit wonder catch by Carter. I've never been hugged by that many strangers in my life.
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Lowell
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Post Number: 5036
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the history of college football there is Michigan and Notre Dame, then all the rest.

UM football has a legendary and victorious tradition, are 20 plus years older than the Tigers, were long established before the newcomers arrived -- MSU, Lions, Red Wings or Pistons. UM has brought more sports glory to Michigan than any other team by far. At the same time UM has maintained world renowned academic excellence. And... they have the a great brand starting with their helmets.

National Championships: 11
1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1918, 1923, 1932, 1933, 1947, 1948, 1997
Conference Championships: 42
1898, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1906, 1918, 1922, 1923, 1925, 1926, 1930, 1931, 1932, 1933, 1943, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1964, 1969, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2004
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Tayshaun22
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Post Number: 446
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It cracks me up when people pick a random year and say not to count anything before it.

It happened.
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Enduro
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Post Number: 150
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Lions haven't won squat since 1957. The end.
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1462
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To quote Marge:

"Marketing makes people do strange things...like eat at Arby's"
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Spartacus
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Post Number: 332
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It cracks me up when people pick a random year and say not to count anything before it."

Well... not exactly. Many of those so called National Championships are on very shaky footing. No one tried to rank football teams nationally until the mid 20's. The coaches poll didn't start until 1950 (I believe the writer's poll started in the 30's). The majority of UM's championships were awarded retroactively by people who hadn't even seen the team play.

I think the point is, that taking credit for all of these accomplishments during the infancy of the sport (when colleges would play high school teams, for example) strikes many as a little specious.

BTW, for anyone who is counting, if you go back and look at the history of the coaches poll you will find:

UM
#1 0
#2 2

MSU
#1 2
#2 3

I believe that they're tied for #3 finishes.

Armed with these facts, you can win a lot of bar bets with Walmart Wolverines.
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Jtw
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Post Number: 225
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus, the coaches poll is only important as a result of its inclusion as an element of the BCS. After all, Michigan was preseason #24 this year in the "USA Today" coaches poll - it sells newspapers, that's about it.

Last I checked, MSU hasn't entered into the BCS situation much.
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Spartacus
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Post Number: 333
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last I checked, UM was 1-2. Oh, and good luck with Toledo, that should be interesting.
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_sj_
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Post Number: 2578
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think some of you are missing the point. They are often referred to as the "best" or the "leaders" by their fandom. While they rank highly in many categories, they are from the leaders and best.

Hell, they aren't even the best school academic wise in the Big Ten.

Their business school is 12th
Their law school is 9th
Their med school is tied for 11th
Their Eng school is 9th

These are all fantastic numbers and we are blessed to have such a facility but if you asked many they would say they are #1.

If other schools counted national championships like UM there would be a shit load more banners. I think even MSU can claim something like 7-10 national championships under that fuzzy math.
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Jtw
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't say anything about Michigan, other than it was preseason #24 in the coaches poll - makes you kinda wonder about that, doesn't it?

I'm just saying that using the coaches poll to settle bets is specious at best.
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Tayshaun22
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Post Number: 447
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is an MSU fan chiming in? I'd expect a ND or tOSU fan, one of our rivals. Michigan's success or overrating has nothing to do with you.
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Kenp
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SJ did you read on the Michigan State football thread that they labeled you as a UM fan. I got kind of a kick out of it.
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_sj_
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It did produce a nice little chuckle since I am a die-hard fan of neither athletic program.
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Spartacus
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Post Number: 334
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'm just saying that using the coaches poll to settle bets is specious at best"

For the last half of the 20th century the coaches' poll and the writers' poll were the preeminent rankings.
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1kielsondrive
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sparty, I guess I can't fault your argument, after all you obviously are a Sparty, or as we call you, a Jolly Green Giant. Anyone who, by any means, tries to make the argument that MSU is even in the same league as UoM is deluded. Not in sports, not in academics, not in education, not in research, not in reputation. Athletics is a very small part of the total equation. Even there, Sparties aren't cutting it. I know, I know, I'm going to have all the postings about the 50's, the titles, the hockey games, the number of students, this player and that. It doesn't matter. Having said that, I love MSU, much as I love Detroit. I just don't spend a lot of time comparing MSU to UoM, nor do I compare Detroit to Chicago, UNLESS I'm backed into a corner by a deluded Green Giant or a whacked out Detroiter. It's not a fair comparison. I enjoy MSU and Detroit for what each is - a great institution and a great city.
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El_jimbo
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tayshaun,

why should a spartan chime in? Because there is an entire state of jackasses here in michigan who never got farther than high school (if that) who LOVE to bash MSU and try to refer to it as a "cow college" or some other form of inferior education simply because they had nothing better to do with their lives than to devote their entire being to the Michigan football team.

Look I'm not taking ANYTHING away from ACTUAL alumni from Michigan. It is a fine institution that has a record of excellence which is unquestionable. However, after having my own exceptional education denigrated by a barely literate imbecile in a 20 year old maize and blue Starter jacket more times than I can remember, I damn well have the right to throw my own opinion into the conversation.

Plus there are other reasons why MSU people have a right to get involved with the discussion. The rivalry between UofM and MSU dates back even before the dawn of college athletics. When the state of Michigan wanted to create MSU in the 1850s UofM tried to block it, stating that the money should be used to add on to UofM instead.

Moving ahead a few years to the and 1940s. Michigan led the charge to block MSU from joining the Big Ten conference following the University of Chicago leaving the conference. It took 3 tries before MSU finally made it to the Big Ten.

Lastly, there is a semi-famous story in the rivalry from the 1950s where MSU was pushing to get its own law school. The chairman of the appropriations committee (or whatever committee was in charge of approving the additions of certain line items to legislation) was a UofM Alum. After a long negotiations led by one of the chairman's personal friends who was an MSU alum, the new funding for a law school at MSU was finally going to be put on a piece of legislation and become reality.

Flash forward to the UM-MSU game that year. MSU wins the game convincingly. The after the game, the chairmen's friend turns to the chairman and says, "I'm not going to get my law school am I?". The chairman responded with a simple "no". thus it would take another 50 years until the Detroit College of Law moved to MSU before MSU would get its own law school.

All of that over a football game. Talk about being a poor sport.

First, UofM tried to block the very existence of MSU. In the ensuing 150 years, UofM has time and time again made attempts to block MSU's progress both academically and athletically. To this day, UofM, even though it has fewer students than MSU, still receives more money from the state than MSU does.

Of course UofM is the better school than MSU. However, a large part of that is due to the century plus campaign of UofM holding back MSU at every opportunity and a very unbalanced funding per student ratio.

I won't even tough the "stellar" education UofM's student athletes get as General Studies majors.

All in all, I think people associated with MSU have a right to speak up about Michigan since the rivalry has effected them in so many ways.
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Higgs1634
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Post Number: 669
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Anyone who, by any means, tries to make the argument that MSU is even in the same league as UoM is deluded. Not in sports, not in academics, not in education, not in research, not in reputation.




Thank you for chiming in with that. Really highlights the class of a typical MEEEEEEchigan man.
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_sj_
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget that MSU voted to send OSU to a Rose Bowl instead of UM one season.
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Kenp
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Post Number: 1189
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My dad can beat up your dad.
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Wolverine
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ouch, some of the posts are getting harsh.
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El_jimbo
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sj,

And why do you think MSU decided to vote that way? MSu didn't owe Michigan ANY favors after the trouble we had getting into the Big Ten because of them. Maybe if UofM hadn't been an obstacle, our vote may have ended up differently.
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Crawford
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why are people bringing up Michigan's academic prowess? It has nothing to do with its football team. And the academic argument is weak anyways. Michigan is generally ranked around #25 nationally. This is very good, but it means there are two dozen schools consistently ranked ahead of U-M.

This is all irrelevent anyways. Top sports programs recruit based on need, not academic standards. Do you really think the football team is admitted based on higher standards than at other Division I schools? Give me a break!
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Tayshaun22
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Post Number: 448
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

33-19 record over MSU in football
91-71 record over MSU in basketball
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Tayshaun22
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Post Number: 449
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

El_jimbo, that whiny attitude isn't going to get you very far. Michigan is just a better university, through and through. Accept it for what it is.

MSU is no slouch either, but let's face it, the standards are much higher for those (non-athletes) applying to Michigan. As for athletics, I think the head to head records and championships won (even if only over the modern era, if you wish) speak for themselves.
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Mayor_sekou
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From a relevant Facebook group:

Here are Big Ten programs that have won national championships since 1950:

4 - Ohio State (1954, 1957, 1968, 2002)
3 - Michigan State (1952, 1965, 1966)
2 - Penn State (1982, 1986)
1 - Minnesota (1960)
1 - Michigan (1997)

Add to this that Bo Schembechler never won a national title. I guess his quote of, "Those who stay will be champions" was for Ohio State, Michigan State, and Penn State players.

Sure Michigan has 7 championships but they won 6 of them before most people’s grandparents were born 1901, 1902, 1923, 1933, 1947, and 1948.

4 of Michigan's national titles were given retroactively. It was not until 1934 that the Associated Press Poll was created.
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Chuckjav
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why?

Because Western Michigan University is doing so well; we would not want the University of Michigan to develop an inferiority complex.

That's why.
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Zulu_warrior
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I never thought that this thread would go anywhere, but seeing as it has lets begin to tie a knot in it:

1- The University of Michigan was founded in DETROIT. It is inextricably linked to Detroit for no other reason than this. The people who founded the U of M were giants in Michigan and Detroit History- Woodward, Fr. Gabriel Richard, Woodbridge, Lewis Cass, and a notable Thomas Jefferson gave input.

2-The University of Michigan was founded before Michigan was a state. This gives aid to its preeminence as the long time educational leader in the state, and became the cradle of intellectual growth that drove many of the business decisions that formed the industries that have undergirded the states growth. Detroit was the business center and U of M, its intellectual. the university is ensconsed in the growth of Detroit and the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H istory_of_the_University_of_Mi chigan

Now to football...

Prior to the mid 1990's, people did not care if Michigan was a National Champion. The BCS had not been created thus, The term National Champion, was an arbitrary title that was decided by reporters and coaches...and it didnt mean anything really. What mattered more was the title: BIG TEN CHAMPIONS

By this measure Michigan has dominated the Big Ten with more championships than anyone else. The nearest school, Ohio State, has 10 more championships to win to just tie the Blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B ig_Ten_Conference_football_cha mpions

These facts, coupled by the faltering Lions who havent made any positive strides in the modern era of football, makes Michigan the choice of Detroiters.

I state these things as a Detroiter and an alum.

Salve Universitas, Michiganensium!
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Kenp
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always thought the vote by MSU to let OSU go to the Rose Bowl actually turned out to be a good thing for UM and the other Big Ten teams. I think the fact UM lost around 3 games from 72-74 and never went to a bowl made it a strong case to change the 1 Big Ten team to a bowl rule.
We have gone every year since.
Also if I were a Spartan I would be just as pissed at OSU. Woody did vote to have MSU join the Big Ten but it was only to weaken UM. However it was Woody who was leading the case to put MSU on Probation in 1974. The charges were small but he helped make them stick. A bs move that really hurt MSU. Kept them from the rose bowl in 78.
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Tayshaun22
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayor_sekou, I thought the imaginary date set to deny Michigan's championships was 1945?
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Tayshaun22
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Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KenP, why was MSU on probation in the 70's? Is it true that they weren't shown on TV during the time of their probation, leading to more Michigan viewers, and fans as a byproduct?
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Kenp
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Post Number: 1193
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TV back then wasnt like it is today. Like I said before from 72-74 we only lost 3 games so we already were back to popularity. We maybe were on TV 2-3 times a year.
MSU lost scholarships and bowl games. I cant recall if they were banned from TV. Their decline started before the probation. I think Duffy got a little complacent near the end.
The probation was really BS stuff as I recall. Recruiting violations were like giving kids shoes and things. Though maybe a Spartan can fill us in with more details.
MSU did have a great team that I saw wipe us in 78. They won the Big Ten but couldnt go to the Rose Bowl.
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Crawford
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Post Number: 374
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So basically people are saying that Michigan is great because they consistently dominated high school teams 100 years ago??

And the same people would agree that Yale is even better in College Football?

Yale led college football in wins until the 1950's, and still has among the highest win totals

If you want to add the academic angle, Yale is obviously much better than U-M, offers no scholarships, and actually has stringent academic standards for its athletes.

The fact is that Michigan hasn't been all that great in recent years. They did have one national championship in recent decades, but it was shared (and they played Ryan Leaf and lousy Washington State), and nobody thought they were the better team.

This year, they would be extremely lucky to finish .500
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 780
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tayshaun,

What was whiny about what I said? All I stated was actual facts that happened. If using facts to state a case is whining in your definition, my advice is for you to NEVER debate anyone and don't even consider a career in law.

As far as whether Michigan is a better school than MSU, I never denied it. All I stated is that there are some very clear cut reasons that help explain WHY UofM is the better school.
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Tayshaun22
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Post Number: 452
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was whiny because you're blaming Michigan for MSU's shortcomings. I would NEVER consider a career in law, either. Ripping people off, I'll pass.

Crawford, I'll bet U of M finishes .500 or above any day of the week with you.

"Nobody" believed Michigan was better than Nebraska? Hmm, AP poll? Michigan had one common opponent with Nebraska (Colorado). Michigan beat them 27-3, Nebraska won 27-24.

Hasn't been "all that great" in recent years? Perhaps you forgot the '99, '03, and '06 teams. If Michigan hasn't been anything, what has MSU been? In the 90's/00's, Michigan has been 13-5 against MSU, with a 6 game win streak.

One person arguing AGAINST Michigan's greatness stated they played TWO high school teams in the 1890's. So ZERO Michigan fans asserted Michigan was great because they consistently dominated high school teams. I don't know where you read that.

As for Yale, can I say red herring?
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El_jimbo
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tayshaun,

You are twisting my words. I NEVER placed the full blame of MSU shortcomings on UofM. HOWEVER, there is no question that the influence that UofM has in the state of Michigan has held MSU back academically over its history. How much better would MSU be if it received the same per pupil funding that UofM had? How much more prestige would MSU's law school had if we had got it in the 50s instead of in this decade?

Like I said, I'm not putting all the blame on UofM, but anyone who denies that the above things haven't hindered MSU or given UofM a considerable advantage is simply fooling themselves.
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Tayshaun22
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Username: Tayshaun22

Post Number: 453
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alright, I didn't know that MSU doesn't get as much grant money per student as U of M does. Why is that so?
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 3461
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because it doesnt have the national reach that the U does. Michigan is grant funded becuase it has many, many national reasearch programs, far more than MSU.

Also Michigan has a broader internataional reach, which means that grants may come from the world over.

In Engineering, space research, military, health sciences,politics, transportation, urban studies, medicine, there is world class research going on.

MSU has some of this, but not to the range and depth of Michigan
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Mastermsu
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Username: Mastermsu

Post Number: 13
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wait until MSU receives the 600 million dollar grant for the update to its nuclear research collide center... MSU already provides 50% of all PhD. nuclear physicists/scientis in the country.. international reach?? you must do your homework...
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Jtf1972
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Username: Jtf1972

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nothing before the revolutionary way of determining a true national champion that will be unveiled in 2034 should count.

;)
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1kielsondrive
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Username: 1kielsondrive

Post Number: 205
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All of the arguments that I suspected would come out, have. None of it matters if you love your school. I love UoM and MSU in different ways. How could you not love the Red Cedar? Munn Arena? Spartan Stadium(which by the way, I don't prefer over the Big House, but you must admit, MSU crowds are crazier, more exciting and boisterous than the dullish crowds at UoM)? How about Jenison, now a fieldhouse? Or Old College Field. I take every opportunity to hit the campus in East Lansing and walk and/or bicycle for hours. The only reason I didn't attend MSU when given the opportunity, was because it was too big. Too big then and still is now.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

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Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tayshaun and Zulu,

I was not talking about grant money. I'm speaking of the fact that both UofM and MSU are public universities that receive funding from the State of Michigan. Michigan not only receives more money from the State of Michigan per student than Michigan State, but it also gets more money from the State of Michigan PERIOD. This is in spite of the fact that MSU has 10,000 more undergrads than Michigan, 5,000 more students as a whole, and a higher percentage of its students coming from the State of Michigan (shouldn't the state's priority be for more of the tax dollars being paid by Michigan residents should go to educate students from Michigan?).

As far as grant money is concerned, hey, if Michigan earned it, they earned it. They do great research and if they got the grants then more power to them.

In regards to international reach, I don't think the gap between the two universities is that big. MSU, for a LONG time has been involved in outreach programs that teach modern agricultural techniques to farmers in developing and third world countries. MSU also has one of the largest study abroad programs of any American university. I believe it is in the top five in terms of the number of students it sends overseas each year. I'm sure there are other examples of both national and international outreach by MSU, but I just point out the agricultural ones because that is one of our longest running outreach programs.
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Kenp
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Username: Kenp

Post Number: 1194
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

top ten dumbest threads of the year. This topic gets done at least once a year.
I am a lions fan, do I have to explain my insanity to Crawford. I can like whatever I like. Crawford, tell us your interests so we can start a thread to make a lame attempt to ridicule.
Oh, in the late 70's I also had a brief disco interest. At least I can admit it.
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Tayshaun22
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Username: Tayshaun22

Post Number: 454
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

El_jimbo, what I was getting at is do you have any clue why Michigan receives more funding than MSU?
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 783
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More UofM alumni in the state legislature? I don't know. It sounds like it was a loaded question that you have the answer to.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2585
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is all from memory so it may be a little fuzzy.

It had to do with a local booster, an attorney I think. It happened during the tenure of Denny Stolz, who was chosen over Barry Switzer.

The NCAA wanted the University to investigate and punish itself, instead the lawyers tried to fight the case and the NCAA laid down the hammer. If i recall correctly their offenses paled in comparison to the recent UM basketball scandal.

I always figured more would come from the UM scandal as many have said that UM basketball was dirty back to the Orr days.

If Chris Webber sticks to his original choice and attends MSU just think of the difference.

Same as if Switzer, instead of Stolz, and later Tom Osborne, had his bags packed and changed his mind at the last minute to stay at Nebraska, are hired at MSU.

Another funny little tidbit, MSU wore the winged helmet in 1947, albeit black and gold. Then replaced the helmet with a with helment with a green wing and a block S. After getting trounced by Michigan they ditched the wing design. So MSU had the block logo and the wing logo first as UM did not sport the wing until 1938. The stuff rivalries are built out of.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5392
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

El_jimbo, it's more than sending students to foreign universities as part of study abroad. The international links are also displayed in how many students come to actually be four-year or exchange students at UM (absurdly high), and in how many UM faculty and student are sent abroad to study/reseach within their departments.

Do you honestly have a beef because 35-40 percent of Michigan's student body is from outside Michigan? Remember, those people pay 35k/yr as opposed to 14k. You understand why they pay that much, right? They don't receive state subsidies.

Why does UM allegedly receive more cash? Well, its students pay higher tuition, so you'd think they'd need less, but perhaps UM is simply a more expensive school to run. It might have a large staff, especially, especially when you start including the huge health/medical campus and all of that faculty. Michigan professors are also paid more, although much of that comes from endowed professorships. I don't know man, ask your congressman, but Michigan is the no.2 or no.3 public school and is the original state school of the great state of Michigan. Maybe its institutional bias. Who the hell knows, but neither school is exactly struggling.

And why the provincial tone? When people from the state of Michigan go study at a university in another state, their family's tax dollars are left on the table here and go to MI universities, while they go pay high amounts elsewhere, without the benefits of that state's taxpayer money. Likewise, the out of state students at UM (and MSU-- they have some too) both pay through the nose in out of state tuition AND leave behind all their families tax dollars (which are probably appreciable) in NY, CA, NJ, even Ohio (the most commonly represented states). They are more than paying off their choice to attend a Michigan school, just as people from Michigan who go elsewhere have to do. Unless you believe people should be required to stay in their state, ragging on out of state students is pointless.

Let's not pretend, also, that the state doesn't derive benefits from bringing people from around the world to UM. Some MIGHT actually like Ann Arbor and Michigan in general, and they pursue employment and residency here. Just them living here for four or more years pumps cash into Michigan that previously did not exist. (And believe me, many out of staters live better than a regular college student-- so there is cash changing hands).

Oh yes, this thread is about football. Go Blue beat Wisconsin.
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1kielsondrive
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Username: 1kielsondrive

Post Number: 243
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saturday's game against Wisconsin is another example. A team comprised of freshmen, walk ons and inexperienced players, none of them chosen by the present coaching staff, practically gives the game away, and yet comes back to pull out a win at the last. They may lose a lot of games this year, but I'm enjoying the hell out of this team. It's all good for the future. Coach Rod is a breath of fresh air. Nothing against Lloyd. I love him. He was a great coach.

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