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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 981
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:


I'm not blaming the victim



But it sure sounds like you WANT to and are hoping for a reason that will allow you to do just that...pin the blame on the victim instead of Detroit being America's most violent big city, a city where criminals rule the streets and the rule of law is practically non-existent.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12151
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Ah yes, the race card. Touche. Well, friend, had you actually BOTHERED to watch the television coverage of the Harrison Township apartment complex fire (which, BTW, left over 60 people homeless), you would have seen that there were numerous black residents in that apartment complex who were victims of that fire as well.



Actually it was more the economics card. The media makes a bigger deal out of the loss of wealthy residents than poor residents but it is telling that the first thing that came to your mind was race. The simple fact of the matter is that a tragedy in Birmingham/Bloomfield, etc is more important to the news than a tragedy in Detroit, Warren, Redford.

Financial situations of those victimized is what often leads the media to play the sympathy card moreso.

Do you diagree?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12152
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

And please, tell me, how many fires in Detroit leave 60 people homeless at a time?



How many were left homeless with the apartment fire near WSU earlier this year? Care to compare comverage?
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Hockey_player
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Username: Hockey_player

Post Number: 450
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "How many were left homeless with the apartment fire near WSU earlier this year? Care to compare comverage?"

Forest Arms? That was on every channel and in both dailies. What are you talking about?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12155
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Forest Arms? That was on every channel and in both dailies. What are you talking about?



I don't recall the same level of coverage. I very well may be mistaken.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 322
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Very true. But it isn't just out of towners. Compare the number of fires in Detroit that displace families every day. Compare all of the coverage of those to the coverage of the recent Harrison Township fire.

The local media tends to not consider victims of murder, fire, etc in the city as real victims. Demographics rule coverage and the typical demographic in Detroit is obviously not a concern to the local media."

I disagree with this. The major reason that fires and murders in Detroit aren't news is because they happen every day. By contrast, when a murder happens in a suburb that hasn't had one for half-a-decade, whether you like it or not, that IS news.

For the same reasons, this is why a 10-floor office building (like Kennedy square) being built in Detroit somewhere is treated as a major development story but when 5 of them are built at 12 + Halstead in Farmington Hills, it doesn't get very much press at all since its just business as usual.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1181
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A major component of this is the practicality of the medium, especially in TV.

If a fire, shooting, accident or other event has great visuals and/or a compelling backstory, then TV news is much more likely to cover it. It also matters if they get to the story in time to get to the visuals.
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 982
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Actually it was more the economics card. The media makes a bigger deal out of the loss of wealthy residents than poor residents but it is telling that the first thing that came to your mind was race.



Sure, economics. More lies from jt1.

I hate to break this to you, but NOBODY living in an apartment complex like that is "wealthy" by any stretch of the imagination. You must be out of your mind. We all know what you meant by "Detroit demographic", don't lie and pretend you meant something else.
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Mortalman
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Username: Mortalman

Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What did he mean Warriorfan?
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 325
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you Mortal man?
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Sirrealone
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Username: Sirrealone

Post Number: 218
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The discussion here should not be centered on whether the media coverage is fair or whether the guy did something to bring this on that he shouldn't have.

The discussion should be on how the perpetrator(s) of this crime are caught and brought to justice.

The discussion should also be on what steps to take so that the next time an out of town conventioneer comes to town (if they do, that is) then they are not shot in cold blood. On what we will do as individuals and as a community to make our city safe for its residents and for its visitors.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12156
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"Detroit demographic", don't lie and pretend you meant something else.



Sorry but no lie on my part. If I would have thought it was race only I would have said it. Demographics encompasses more than race which is why I used the term. Read what you want from that but yuo will be wrong. If I used demographics to imply race I would have used quotes around it to imply that there is something mroe nebulous about them considering certain 'demographics'.

Sorry, you're wrong in assuming what I thought or intended to say.

TJ - That is a fair point regarding how often it happens in certain areas but it doesn't change the fact that losing a loved on e is the same if you live in Detroit or anywhere else. The same sympathy and attention should be given when the victims are innocent victims.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12157
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Te discussion should be on how the perpetrator(s) of this crime are caught and brought to justice.

The discussion should also be on what steps to take so that the next time an out of town conventioneer comes to town (if they do, that is) then they are not shot in cold blood. On what we will do as individuals and as a community to make our city safe for its residents and for its visitors.



100% true
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Gnome
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Username: Gnome

Post Number: 1713
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple of nights ago the story ran on the 11pm news. I can't remember which channel.

I remember the reporter saying that Mr. Goldberg had visited several gentlemen's clubs on 8 mile that evening. At the Penthouse, instead of using valet parking, Mr. Goldberg parked in the neighborhood behind the establishment.

While walking to his vehicle he was shot but managed to stumble down the street and across a couple of lawns. One porch had his blood on the stoop so it was surmised that the victim had tried to get help. He then stumbled next door where he collasped on the front lawn.

The police where called at 7:30 in the morning with a report of a body.

That's a fucked up way to die, stumbling around in a mysterious place, desperately trying to get help, feeling the blood shooting out through the bullet hole. I feel for the guy.

I feel for his family. For his kids. 20 years from now, that kid is going to be asked about her dad,

"He was killed in Detroit after going to a titty bar and because he didn't use valet parking."

Unless there is some skinhead angle to this story, I don't see how race or ethnicity is even part of this discussion.

And for those who want to bitch that not enough news time is devoted to a Detroiter being killed. Gosh, the operative word is 'news'. It is a sad state, when any shooting isn't news, but we are in a sad state. The truth is that it isn't news. It is every single day.

That ain't news, that's a statistic.
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Cinderpath
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Username: Cinderpath

Post Number: 697
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is really unfortunate, for his family and friends. However there is something about this that does not pass the smell test; it seems odd, and if it was a murder by an other party, there would be no better set-up.

Was he robbed? I'd be curious to see if the was random, or pattern type crime around these types of establishments in the area. If this did happen even on a semi-pattern basis, these places would be out-of-business.

-These thoughts of course are no way based on any different information than those mentioned above.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 12158
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

That ain't news, that's a statistic.



Tell that to the families that lose loved ones in the city.

It is akin to the government paying out families whose loved ones died on 9/11. There is nothing more painful to their families than the family of a loved one killed by a drunk driver in Indiana or a loved one killed in Detroit.

When the news, and government, start decideing whose lives are more valuable through sensationalism and payouts something is wrong.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1639
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tragic, and sickening.

But...

Don't forget what you see on T.V., or read in the front of the equivalent of a coupon book, isn't reality.

Something many seem to occasionally forget.

I'm not trying to down play this event. It is sickening, and should not be tolerated. However, if this wasn't in Detroit, it would be less valuable to the entertainment/news media.

Detroit leads because of entertainment value. People see Detroit, and read the article, or watch the show. People are captivated by Detroit. I would speculate that the pessimists are more interested more in the blight and crime. The optimists are captivated by it's under dog appearance, work ethic, and potential. Although, there might be cross over appeal, and many more reasons.

I am of course talking about the people who have never even set foot in Detroit, for the most part.

It's not just Detroit. Every city has it's scary area. Those other cities get by because they are only areas of the city. Here in Michigan, we label whole cities as these scary areas. So... instead of Jane and Saint Claire Street, South Central, or the Bronx (all areas I only know about based on past crime stories), we have Detroit. Just simply Detroit (or Flint, or Pontiac, or whatever). 8 Mile was/is a synonym for Detroit. They have no idea Detroit has various areas. Many people exited the theaters after 8 Mile, and think 8 Mile is our main street. It's all marketing really.

This is another "battle" going on. It's kind of different then the political issues, and new buildings. It's ongoing... during everything else, always. Getting shows and movies filmed here, and showcasing our other areas is a very good move. It could really help the world see that Metro Detroit is made up of various areas.

Ilitch couldn't even convince everyone some of our suburbs were comparable to other cities.

PS: Hmmm... Maybe Detroit is the feared area in Southeast Michigan, but Metro Detroit is America's feared area. Although, Atlanta and New Orleans seems like they're on our heels (I won't call racism... but it does smell fishy).

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 27, 2008)
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Mortgageking
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Username: Mortgageking

Post Number: 217
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sean, WTF are you trying to say?

A man from out-of-state was murdered on business and his hometown paper reported this, yet you turn this into some vast conspiracy theory against Detroit. Just because Detroit is the center of your small universe, doesn't mean that it is to the rest of the world.

This has nothing to do with marketing, the media's captivation with Detroit, city vs. suburbs, or Mike Ilitch.

So save the "Why is everybody picking on Detroit" whine for one of the Forbes lists or something... this is not right event to make your point.

You sir, are an idiot. I don't care if I get kicked off for saying it.
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Mortalman
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Username: Mortalman

Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't assume anything, Thejesus.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1641
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Over your head Mortgageking?

You know you can disagree with opinions and statements without the insults and vulgarity.

I may be wrong...

...but I don't think I'm the idiot here.

What grade are you in again?

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 27, 2008)
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Mortgageking
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Username: Mortgageking

Post Number: 218
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope.. I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 3497
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sean, 8 Mile *IS* one of our main streets.

It's one of the fastest (if not the fastest) route to get across town.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 1012
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

When the news, and government, start decideing whose lives are more valuable through sensationalism and payouts something is wrong.



Of course I've forgotten what it was, but the name of the first American soldier killed in Afghanistan AFTER the fall of the Taliban was in several news cycles. Why? Because he was the first, and to the pundits his death had wider implications (e.g. insurgency).

I believe that most of the hundreds (?) of Detroiters murdered this year are like KIAs #2+, i.e. the names are not important, because the story is "the killings continue..." Which ones will be called out? Those that are standouts. Aside from friends and family who can really mourn for the individuals among the ranks of the slain?

I'll make my point (I hope) among the sensitive and in-touch DY community by tossing out a name: Stella Sproule.

I am certain that someone reading this thread will know her sad story without resorting to web research tools. And why? It was a news-worthy homicide in Detroit.

So now I'm counting until someone tells the story of Stella ...
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Middleageguy
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Username: Middleageguy

Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hockey player

Yes, one should be able to go into a club, and not worry about being shot.
I should also be able to use a crosswalk where the cars are required to yield to me, but do I cross, defiantly expecting every car to stop?
No, I use caution. I do not blame the poor guy who was not careful, or perhaps lost caution to the erosion of booze, or sex drive, but sometimes when you combine one of these, and asshole opportunists, crime happens.
Life is what it is, not what it is supposed to be.
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Hockey_player
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Username: Hockey_player

Post Number: 451
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So people should expect to get shot patronizing businesses in the city.

Your analogy is poorly reasoned. Simply visiting a strip club is not akin to putting oneself in traffic. You're using the same flimsy logic others here use to justify blaming the victim and avoiding putting the blame on the city's considerable criminal element, which routinely preys on innocent victims.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 3499
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sean, a main street to me is a busy thoroughfare, not so much a tourist attraction.

8 Mile is more like Mound or Telegraph. Woodward is more like Gratiot or Jefferson.
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Flyingj
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Username: Flyingj

Post Number: 303
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The tittybar we took my buddy to in Santa Fe was in an okay part of town(Native American strippers were interesting but unpopular with the locals, $5 lapdances!-bridesmaid's roommate gave her co-workers a head's up we were to have a good time) but nuclear whistleblower Tommy Hook was somehow jumped there, if you hear stories from bouncers(& the biggest chain, Deja Vu, is out of Lansing) stripclubs can be inherently dangerous

http://www.mercurynews.com/bus iness/ci_10309586
He should've stayed downtown, or Windsor Ballet FTW...might as well stay over there, too
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 4972
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far as I'm concerned the strips clubs, particularly the excess of them, are part of the city's problem.
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 399
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe something productive Detroit lovers can do is drop a note of condolence to the family.

Benjamin Goldman Memorial Fund

c/o Bank of America
333 N Santa Cruz Ave.
Los Gatos, CA. 95030
Attn: Daryl Dehn
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1645
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detour, that is very thoughtful. Good idea.

My intent wasn't to be disrespectful. Those posts probably belonged in a different topic.

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 27, 2008)
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Mortalman
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Username: Mortalman

Post Number: 124
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 4:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you joking, Detourdetroit?
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Raggedclaws
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Username: Raggedclaws

Post Number: 217
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mess with the bull, you get the horns.

Gnome wins for best post in this thread. Spot-on my mythical little man.

Condolences to the Goldman family.

For Mortgageking: Stop feeding him and he will go away. Eventually.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 2491
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DETROIT RISES! ...right.
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Dbc
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Username: Dbc

Post Number: 149
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C'mon! How does this not pass the smell test?

Guy's in town for business and after a hard day's work he wants to hit some strip clubs. Asks the locals and they tell him 8 Mile. Why? Because it has a bunch of strip clubs! Then some piece of shit preys on him. (Not real uncommon for muggers to lie in wait outside drinking establishments, now is it?)

Plus, I know the article said he was enjoying downtown, but how do we know he wasn't staying closer to 8 Mile? How do we know his business wasn't in Oakland County and he hit 8 Mile on the way back to his hotel? He's from out of town, so why wouldn't he park off 8 Mile. I thought most of us here denigrate all the "don't ever go to Detroit because you'll get killed" idiots?

I mean, I've been to Trumpp's on 8 Mile with my buddies. Were we reckless? Do we not pass the "smell test?"

Yes, this happens other places, but this guy died in Detroit! Instead of formulating excuses for the city's crime problem or acting like he was reckless, Detroiters should condemn the fucker(s) who did this and put pressure on the police to solve this and all other murders.
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Flyingj
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Username: Flyingj

Post Number: 305
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Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dbc, you mean BECAUSE he died on the "wrong side" of 8 Mile? It's a lousy, senseless story. Was he alone? Was he drunk? As far as his surroundings go, strip clubs in the Silicon Valley don't have a great rep either;

http://www.topix.com/forum/cit y/milpitas-ca/TB4ODJT7ATO7G2NT Q#comments
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Dbc
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Username: Dbc

Post Number: 150
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Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure I follow you Flyingj. I was responding to earlier posts that suggested the victim was up to something other than just being an innocent victim trying to enjoy a strip club. I find comments suggesting this story doesn't pass the "smell test" - without knowing any of the facts of the case - insulting to the victim. Until we hear otherwise, I'm going to assume he did nothing reckless, stupid, wrong, etc. to bring about his death.

My comments were not an indictment of or dig on Detroit. (I'm an incessant defender of the city, and the ignorant negativity of many suburbanites and outstaters toward Detroit absolutely infuriates and disgusts me.) Like I said, this stuff happens everywhere, and there's nothing reckless or sketchy about visiting a strip club on 8 Mile. My point was let's not make baseless suggestions about the victim and instead face the facts - as we know them at this point - about this crime.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 4977
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Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"how do we know he wasn't staying closer to 8 Mile"

He was here for a convention and was staying at the MGM.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1686
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

there's nothing reckless or sketchy about visiting a strip club on 8 Mile.

With prostitution, robbery and more drawn to such places, how can that be?
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Lombaowski
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Username: Lombaowski

Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When people are blaming a guy who is from out of town for dying because he should have known better it's time to face that you are in denial.

It also has absolutely nothing to do with Flint, the Bronx, South Central LA or anywhere else. If people can't come to Detroit and let off a little steam or visit a strip club without fear of getting shot, then that's not a city anyone should feel proud living in. I've gone out partying in Baltimore, Coney Island, the Bronx, Dallas, and a lot of other places and never worried about getting shot. When people come to Detroit and have to think about the consequences for going out and tying one on while on business then the city has really lost. So has its residents. It's shameful, nothing less.

(Message edited by lombaowski on August 28, 2008)
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1st_sgt
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Username: 1st_sgt

Post Number: 178
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know I’m going to get slammed for this but here goes.

Detroit and its people are just shooting themselves in the foot. (or higher)

(Get the play on words?)

Killing visiting business people is bad for business.

I bet CISCO and others will think twice about sending one of their own into harm’s way.

He was a Tech Geek, not a highly trained and armed infantryman, it was Detroit not Bagdad.

He was out for a good time. He was a VISITOR.
A visitor is to be made welcome.

The sad part is some of you sound like it’s no big deal, a normal everyday thing, you just have to watch your back. Stay frosty. Keep alert. Watch your surroundings, and have a battle buddy. Don’t go into the wrong part of town. (Yea right).

Do any of you still living in the city really feel safe?
Are you mad at the way you have to live?
Are you mad that a person was killed in your city for no apparent reason?

I’ve read some of your survival tactics, bars on doors and windows, guard dogs, fences, guns, driving junk vehicles so they don’t get vandalized or stolen, fake wallets, paying the homeless to watch your vehicles, setting up surveillance because you’re worried the neighbors will burn you out or run you off.

I have to tell you that is not normal!

And I hate that for part of my life I lived like that too.

Until normal law abiding citizens(Yes you)standup, work together and take back the city, vote out the crooks, back the police force, and lock criminals up for the complete time they are sentenced, under conditions they would not prefer (Outside in tents, eating bologna on white bread three times a day and performing hard, hard labor is one idea) and have the fortitude to be politically incorrect.

You have to be willing to kick ass and take names, or it’s not going to change.

(Message edited by 1st_sgt on August 28, 2008)
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3426
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It also has absolutely nothing to do with Flint, the Bronx, South Central LA or anywhere else. If people can't come to Detroit and let off a little steam or visit a strip club without fear of getting shot, then that's not a city anyone should feel proud living in. I've gone out partying in Baltimore, Coney Island, the Bronx, Dallas, and a lot of other places and never worried about getting shot. When people come to Detroit and have to think about the consequences for going out and tying one on while on business then the city has really lost. So has its residents. It's shameful, nothing less.



I don't think people are meaning to imply that it is solely this man's fault that he is dead. But why the total condemnation of the city over this incident? This incident is not indicative of what happens to most visitors (nor a significant number of visitors) to the city of Detroit. Just like most drivers do not die in car accidents.

The only reason this is even being discussed is because of the stigma associated with Detroit. Earlier this month a woman was killed in New York's Times Square and most of you never even heard about it. The news of this woman being murdered probably hasn't caused a single person to hesitate making plans to visit the area.
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Lombaowski
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Post Number: 119
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NY also has 8 million people, and millions of visitors each year so that is cherry picking on your part. And it's not about the "stigma," it's a fact the city is dangerous. How many tourists can go get a beer on Livernois after dark? How many would? Zero? Grand River and Evergreen? Gratiot and Mack? Mound and Six?

I've been to more than 50 countries and most major cities in Africa, Europe, and Asia. The only cities more dangerous IMO are Johannesburg South Africa and maybe Odessa the Ukraine. Kandahar, Baghdad, and Kabul are dangerous for different reasons but there isn't a big city in the U.S. or really in the world outside of Rio and Johannesburg that are more dangerous mile by mile. If you go to Baltimore, Atlanta, LA, or even Flint (not a big city) there isn't a green zone you are tied to as a tourist/visitor where you are pretty sure you are gonna be safe.

Places like Bucharest Romania, Chisinau Moldova, Maputo Mozambique, and Yaoundé Cameroon are places that have a lot of street crime but where you probably aren’t going to have to face a gun if someone wants your stuff.

And I’m not bashing the city in the sense that I think it’s worse than another place either because I’ve spent a lot of time working in bad neighborhoods and visiting places most people wouldn’t dare to go and I find them much better than people would think. A lot of people still care, Detroit still has a spirit about her that transcends the crime and it is a city and place I dearly love, even with it’s obvious problems. But no one is going to tell me it’s safe for someone who doesn’t know the place to just walk around in. It is the poorest big city in the country, it has one of the highest murder rates, highest violent crime rates, it’s run down and abandoned in places, and there are just a lot of thugs who have nothing better to do than steal and intimidate. It also has a lot of desperate people and desperate people do very maddening things. I appreciate people defending the city to a degree and do it myself often but it’s not safe, it just isn’t. It might be safer for me because I know it better than most and I look like a cop ;) but I don’t try kidding myself when I take my wife to different sections of the city when I’m back to show her the great city Detroit still is, and especially once was. Doesn’t mean we’ll be hitting a night spot on Wyoming though.
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Mortalman
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Username: Mortalman

Post Number: 127
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The victim blamers on this thread are victims of the desensitization of the horrible things that go on in Detroit ALL THE TIME. If you live in something all the time then you think it’s normal. This is what’s called losing your humanity when you blame the victim of the victimization they are a victim of. But, this is not the only thing that is affected because when you lose your humanity it affects everything about your life and your attitude about life in its totality. It’s all choices that we all make about the way we chose to do our lives. And, whether or not you blame the guy for his tragic end doesn’t amount to a hill of beans to him, his family, Silicon Valley or anyone reading this thread. The only person it really affects is you. So, strike up the band and march down the street called denial and say everything is wonderful and great about Detroit it’s just those damn “victims” that keep screwing up the city’s image.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3427
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

NY also has 8 million people, and millions of visitors each year so that is cherry picking on your part. And it's not about the "stigma," it's a fact the city is dangerous. How many tourists can go get a beer on Livernois after dark? How many would? Zero? Grand River and Evergreen? Gratiot and Mack? Mound and Six?



You are comparing apples and oranges. How many tourists would go to Brownsville, Brooklyn for a beer? Zero as well. It's not a tourist destination, and neither is 8 Mile Road.

Regardless of how many people live in New York or visit Times Square, a person dead is a person dead. If you explain to me how a person murdered in Times Square is a little less dead than one murdered off of East 8 Mile in Detroit, then I guess we can find some common ground.

How many people have been murdered in downtown Detroit this year? In the article I linked you will read that two people were murdered at that one club in Times Square this year alone. And I can assure you that Times Square is a much smaller geographic area than downtown Detroit.

I also have a really hard time believing that Detroit is the most dangerous city you've ever seen -- if you've really traveled as much as you claim. You can see as bad or worse without even leaving the United States. Heck, if this guy wanted to see a dangerous ghetto he could have found plenty of them without ever having left California.
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Lombaowski
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Username: Lombaowski

Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't say Detroit was the most dangerous city I've ever been to, might want to reread my post. How many people go to times Square each year? this says 26 million. http://www.earthcam.com/usa/ne wyork/timessquare/content.php? content=history
How many visit Detroit? Go on...do the percentages.

Also you are offering terrible examples. Brownsville Brooklyn? How many areas of Brooklyn would you want to avoid? Coney Island? Bed-stuy? What percentage of Brooklyn could you walk around in and feel completely safe? 80 percent? More? What about Detroit? Could I just take the bus to Grandale and go see the sights and get to know the neighborhood if I'm a tourist? What about to the North End? If I was staying downtown as a tourist I could walk up Gratiot to Chene and hit the bars down there. Belmont, Chandler Park, Delray, Hubbard Village, Jefferson-Chalmers? How do I get to Hubbard? take the bus? What about Pulaski? You want to tell me about how I can find a ghetto as bad as Detroit anywhere but where? What compares? How big is the ghetto? Is it 100 square miles? Where would that be?

I'll hang up and listen. gllllll

(Message edited by lombaowski on August 28, 2008)
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Flyingj
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Username: Flyingj

Post Number: 306
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheartthed; "wanted to see a dangerous ghetto he could have found plenty of them without ever having left California" my point was even in a place where 4-bedroom homes go for 2 mill, there's areas of the Silicon Valley where you don't play, & my link was about 2 guys shot to death at a club a few miles from the victim's office. "Bad areas" are weird in places like San Fran & Oakland but Detroit's pretty cut & dry, and "convention goer" is a giveaway to me-he shoulda had a buddy system...

http://www.metroactive.com/met ro/06.20.07/bars-and-clubs-int ro-0725.html
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3428
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You say...

quote:

I didn't say Detroit was the most dangerous city I've ever been to, might want to reread my post.



Then you say...

quote:

You want to tell me about how I can find a ghetto as bad as Detroit anywhere but where? What compares? How big is the ghetto? Is it 100 square miles? Where would that be?



Nice way to chase your tail.

I'm pretty sure that I know both Detroit and New York City better than you, but I'll refrain from further engaging in this pointless discussion that solves absolutely nothing.
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 423
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IHD - Since you seem convinced it's not Detroit, what is the most dangerous city in the US in your opinion?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3432
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

IHD - Since you seem convinced it's not Detroit, what is the most dangerous city in the US in your opinion?



I think the whole "most dangerous city" concept is a faulty way to evaluate cities. Especially when cities are evaluated using the criteria that's often mindlessly recited on this forum.

For instance, if I were visiting Detroit and genuinely concerned about my safety, I would be much more concerned with incidents of random acts of violence around downtown than I would about the general murder stats of the entire city. Why? Because I would probably be downtown for my entire stay in Detroit, except going back and forth to the airport.

New Orleans has a homicide rate that has trumped Detroit for years, but how many people has that deterred from going to Mardi Gras? Miami is another city with a relatively high crime rate that has remained a destination for tourists.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1688
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right, and in New Orleans, there are certain neighborhoods where you are VERY careful. Much of the French Quarter late at night, you never walk down a deserted street, certainly not alone. It's nothing to do with Detroit, but general street smarts, that it's not good to be alone (and possibly impaired), walking down a dark street you don't know, outside a strip bar. Eight Mile has a bad rep, deservedly or not, nationally so it's hard to figure why someone would take this chance.
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Chad
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Username: Chad

Post Number: 11
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I kinda wonder about the
"dedicated family man"
vs "several strip clubs"
I was wondering why a "dedicated family man" would need to visit "several strip clubs" in one night alone. Not like he was entertaining clients or something.
Although I certainly believe that no one deserves what happened to him.
Once in Norfolk, Va. I left a titty bar and within twenty steps after exiting some guy came up to me and punched me in the face. (gave me two black eyes). I had never seen this guy before in my life. Lesson learned here was don't go to titty bars in strange cities alone.
I too would like to know the whole story behind this.
Chad
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Dbc
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Username: Dbc

Post Number: 152
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how 8 Mile is so dangerous. It's a well-traveled major street, so I also don't see how a visitor would perceive it as so horrible.

Like I said, I've been to Trumpp's, and it wasn't any sketchier than the average strip club out here in the nice parts of DC. The Buddha Lounge and its newest incarnation was/is on 8 Mile. Green Acres borders 8 Mile. I know those areas are spread throughout, but I don't see how a visitor or anyone else is reckless by hitting some strip clubs on 8 Mile. Granted, some clubs are sketchier than others, but I don't agree with painting the whole of 8 Mile with such a broad brush.

Plus, strip clubs almost anywhere sometimes attract a seedy clientele. Seriously, until I read otherwise in the news, this guy did absolutely nothing wrong by going to some titty bars on big, bad 8 Mile.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1305
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

there is no need to provide an excuse or defense for this young man being at a topless bar before someone decided to kill him. the victim could have been a worker at cheli's, or a super-bowl celebrant, or someone enjoying fireworks at the freedom festival, or someone driving a maserati in detroit. any of these can get you killed.
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Middleageguy
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Username: Middleageguy

Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, August 29, 2008 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hockey guy

No, I did not blame the victim. REad what I said. I said if you combine a person who is not as careful as could be, with opportunists, a robbery is more likely to happen. The analogy does not have to be completely correct to make my point: You should be able to get wild at a tittty bar, and you should be able to use a crosswalk, but life is not often what it should be. Thus, be prepared, keep your head, and problems are minimized.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1143
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Friday, August 29, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow. A billion dollars worth of negative advertising. There were a grand total of 29 murders in the entire San Jose area last year, which is a city bigger than Detroit. Trust me, every VC and techie in Silicon Valley has just learned a clear lesson: stay away from Detroit. So much for diversifying our economy.


The people who killed this guy are slicing their own stupid throats economically speaking and they are too dimwitted to know it. I'm sorry, but I'm out of sympathy for the people of Detroit. They elect a moron for mayor. They wallow in crime and corruption. And they masturbate themselves with the idea that their troubles are the fault of the suburbs. I am through worrying about their fate.

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