  Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6123 Registered: 12-2005 |
This was the top headline today in the hardcopy edition of DetNews.com: State short of tech workers. quote:This story doesn't surprise me except for the fact that it was the lead headline today! Wow. Is the demand really that high? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2975 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yes, but the people with enough education to do that work don't want to live in suburban cul-de-sacs. (Not that they want to live in war-torn ghettos, either, but there is very little demand among those people for the kind of environments we offer: Disinvested urban and overbuilt suburban.) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8252 Registered: 10-2003 |
It would be nice to see some of these companies moving people in from out of state, instead of from overseas. Help them get started in an apartment, pay their moving costs like companies used to do who were serious about getting good talent, instead of just whining and asking for more H-1 visas. I know plenty of companies will still do this who are serious about attracting good talent. In fact, a Wisconsin company snatched up a friend of mine a few years ago and made moving very easy and inexpensive for him. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8253 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroitnerd, you give no credit to our region. We have a large variety of places to live. Want quiet suburbs? We have it. Want a small city? Try Plymouth, Royal Oak, Ferndale. Want the serious big city? We have downtown and midtown Detroit. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6124 Registered: 12-2005 |
The article seems to lay the blame at the feet of the one-state recession, not the SE Michigan lifestyle. quote: | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2438 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Yes for the part time contracts as the base of the article is trying to fill. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6125 Registered: 12-2005 |
This story seems related to the Discuss Detroit » DISCUSS DETROIT! » Detroit's Bad Business Perception - How To Fix? thread. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1116 Registered: 11-2003 |
I know a few firms in this predicament. The reason they need to hire overseas is that people from other states want a 10-20% premium on top of moving expenses (in general) to move to our region, for a variety of reasons. This is consistent among younger and older workers. It's not an urban/suburban/whatever thing, it's a "Detroit region" thing. If this doesn't change soon, those who the work doesn't need to be onsite will start opening satellite offices in other states and countries (as some have - I know of a couple acquisitions of Indian firms by Michigan companies) and just leaving sales offices here to handle the client directly. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2976 Registered: 07-2004 |
"We have a large variety of places to live. Want quiet suburbs? We have it. Want a small city? Try Plymouth, Royal Oak, Ferndale. Want the serious big city? We have downtown and midtown Detroit." Yes, JL, but: Want a vibrant downtown accessible by light rail and subway? A city where you don't need a car to live? We don't have it. Go to Chicago, Boston, D.C., San Francisco, et al. Frankly put, there is no pent-up demand for the kinds of environments we offer. Until we offer something we haven't, namely TOD, we won't be able to stanch the brain drain. Of course, this is all in my humble opinion. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8257 Registered: 10-2003 |
Our lack of transportation is definitely a good point, DN. And it's not as though I haven't thought of it (is that even possible). But we do offer some things other places don't. Not everybody wants to live in a city, either. Sometimes on this board we get trapped in the mindset that everybody wants to work in a city and not have a car. Not true, but if we could offer that option as well, we'd truly have all the bases covered. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2006 |
Exactly, Digital. You actually have to pay a significant salary premium to lure young people to Detroit. I know a small (not really tech) start-up with locations in suburban Detroit, Manhattan and the SF area (and two other locations). They have found that the demand for the NYC and CA locations is so high that they can negotiate very strongly on salary in such locations, while the Detroit location has little demand, so they occasionally have to offer more! The offshoot is that the Detroit location will likely be downsized or eliminated. It is VERY difficult to lure someone to metro Detroit who does not have a link to the area. Most educated young people would rather live in a place like Brooklyn, Seattle or Austin than Commerce Township. No, Royal Oak is not an equivalent to Brooklyn. No, Detroit proper is not under consideration by most people. | ||
Jita1 Member Username: Jita1 Post Number: 45 Registered: 08-2008 |
I am an IT professional and travel from Southern Oakland County to Ann Arbor everyday to go to work. I've looked for something closer to home but so far, haven't found anything. Since IT is such a broad field, I wonder what areas have worker shortages in MI. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8259 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm just saying not everybody wants a 1 bedroom apartment that costs twice as much as a house in our area. I fall into this magical "i love cities" age bracket, or at least did recently, but NEVER did I want to live in an apartment or condo. For less money than a place like that in one of the cities you mentioned, I have a roomy historic house in a nice neighborhood. Call me crazy, but at least to me, that's a preferable living environment. I guess standing in lines for trains and living in a tiny expensive box you don't own is alluring to some of these "young professionals", I just don't get it. So understand that people like me exist. Not every kid out of college prefers to live like that. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2006 |
Lodge, there's no metro in the country where most people don't drive, so your point is irrelevant. The issue is transit choice. In many metros, one can choose whether or not to own a car or at least commute by car. In metro Detroit, one can't make that choice. Similarly, housing prices are irrelevant. The issue is housing value. What's the point of getting a "cheaper" house when property values are below where they were pre-2000, and likely still have significant room to fall? If housing prices are such a lure, then the East Side of Detroit would have the hottest housing market in the country. As for preferring a house over a condo, for me the issue is priorities. Growing up, my parents spent every Saturday working on upkeep, with my mom taking care of everything indoors and my dad taking care of the outdoors. If I'm married and we're both working, I want to spent time with my family on weekends, rather than cutting the grass, trimming the hedges, cleaning the gutters, etc. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1118 Registered: 11-2003 |
And not every worker prefers it - you're right Johnlodge. I bet your house is pretty cool :-) I see my friends move to other areas, and they don't ALWAYS move to urban areas. Had a mentor of mine leave for North Carolina last month and he moved from pre-planned, freshly built subdivision to.... pre-planned, freshly built subdivision. Someone like a Joe Knollenberg, the House Rep for most of Oakland County, will tell you that transit is NOT the answer, nor is urbanism. He's flat out said it - he says it's all about jobs. He doesn't support overhauling transit in the region until other things are done first (note to Oakland County, you're not getting real mass transit anytime soon unless you change politicians). Same with L. Brooks Patterson. And what is the economic center of the state? Oakland County. Full of places like Ferndale and Pleasant Ridge, as well as Royal Oak, Troy, and Rochester. I think people are hesitant to bet on a region with such bad press, and across the country we're perceived as the economic backwater and one-industry town. People who want to put down roots want to know they will have security for their wife and kids; and those who don't will opt for a world-class city like Chicago, New York, Boston, or San Francisco. I think we need to start having an identity, though, that isn't all about cars. We're just another middle American city to a lot of people. And that identity CANNOT come from a government or quasi-governmental organization, it has to come from the private sector. At least once a week I see on national news something about Detroit's economy sucking. It's really hard to fight that. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6126 Registered: 12-2005 |
In my experience the primary factor driving most software engineers is simple financial compensation. That may have been a phenomenon local only to Phoenix though. Phoenicians tend to be more philistinian. At one point several engineers would bounce between two major local employers just to rachet up their salaries. That scheme worked ... until it didn't.  I felt more drawn by work that was interesting which might explain staying in satellite communications for so long. Is this demand in SE Michigan really only for part time contracts? Could more people be attracted by permanent positions instead? | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1716 Registered: 07-2007 |
Smart people tend to go where the best jobs and most money is then decide if they want to live there. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8262 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I am not arguing with that at all. We need effective transit in this region. And as far as the house vs. condo thing, I was giving my opinion on the matter. It is not for everybody. But as far as metro Detroit being a bad place to live, I don't believe so. I think it's a great place to live, full of variety in housing and neighborhoods. Other people should be told that once in awhile, don't you think? Instead of only the negatives? That's where I'm coming from. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8263 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I wouldn't uproot my family and move to another state for a part time contract. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2439 Registered: 12-2003 |
It seemed to me all the companies interviewed were staffing companies, which would imply temp jobs. I did not see a Compuware or any software house interviewed. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1343 Registered: 09-2004 |
Almost all IT work is "Contract Work". This is the story across the industry. Right or wrong, the feeling is that IT folks have a technical skillset that is not always required. Your skills may only be required during a Launch or a Rewrite for instance. Some actually last the duration stated, but many continue on well past their original length. Not saying this is correct or not (I've got my own opinions), but this is the industry opinion. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2982 Registered: 07-2004 |
My arguments about lifestyles notwithstanding, it could be this article is also a bunch of BS. Like SE Michigan needs IT people, but wants to do it on the cheap and can't get takers. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3410 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: I know several people who had good jobs in Metro Detroit area, but they ran from there at the first opportunity to get out. Each person's reason for leaving? They hated living there. The University of Michigan is a Computer Science and Computer Engineering educational powerhouse; it's one of the best institutions in the world to be educated in that field. Why can't companies convince those students to in Detroit? If they can't make the case to students who have spent at least four years living there then it's not just the economy. I'm sure they don't have this problem with Berkeley and Stanford students. Or MIT and Harvard students. Or Northwestern and University of Chicago students. Or NYU and Columbia students... (Message edited by iheartthed on August 18, 2008) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3411 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: I think the article is BS too. The IT page on craigs list is not nearly what I would expect it to look like if there were truly that much demand... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8266 Registered: 10-2003 |
Could be some companies want more H1 visas, but have to prove they made an effort to hire locally first. But that effort consists of offering part time contract jobs with little pay. Just like that IT job we saw on Craigslist and had the thread about. $10 per hour, 70 hours a week, no overtime? Gee, no takers? Guess Michigan is no place to do business then. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 3589 Registered: 11-2003 |
Of course the article is BS. If the market payed the going rate for the services needed, there wouldn't be any "shortage". | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1119 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't IHD, a lot of the "tech" execs around here I've met don't have a clue what Craigslist is. They're salespeople first, and then pick up the pieces. I'm not close with those guys - I am closest to the nerds who happened to turn into good, upstanding businessmen/women. Most of these firms (at least the ones I know) hire headhunters instead of going out and getting the people themselves - hence the interviews with the recruiting firms. However, I see the BS argument. It makes sense. A LOT of positions I see are 3 or 6 month contracts - got a buddy on his 5th 6 month contract renewal. (Message edited by digitalvision on August 18, 2008) | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2983 Registered: 07-2004 |
That's a serious problem with our local business media: That whole top-down look they get from chatting with executives, management consultants and employment services. If they bothered to talk to people POSTING online looking for work, they'd find that people with multiple engineering degrees are putting in garage door openers. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3413 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: This furthers my skepticism. A "tech exec" may not understand the usefulness of craigslist (but really, how can you be a tech anything and not know what craigslist in this day and age? automatic fail), but a head hunter surely would. A lot of the postings I see for tech jobs in other cities are made by head hunters | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2440 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Couldn't be further from the truth. Certain segments of IT work is contract but not almost all of IT work is contract work. | ||
Sludgedaddy Member Username: Sludgedaddy Post Number: 115 Registered: 01-2008 |
....Tech Firms can offer something to their employees in Detroit that other locations can not. Imagine playing Dungeons and Dragons or other such Live Role Playing Games in the ruins of Detroit. Is that a crack-head or an ogre in the alley, Frodo? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6131 Registered: 12-2005 |
So is the consensus that the lead story in the Detroit News today is BS?  | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 383 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: I hear this from people, too. But I wonder if a year or two later they realize that the rest of the world isn't the utopia they had hoped it would be? That Metro Detroit wasn't really a bad place? They probably wouldn't admit it out of pride, regardless. I feel like a lot of people leave simply because of the perception that moving to a place like Chicago, NYC or LA will make them seem that much more important and successful to their peers. I have a couple of friends who openly brag that their out-of-state super cool city rent is double my entire mortgage. Congratulations? To each their own, I suppose. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 4893 Registered: 06-2004 |
The person I knew best who freshly graduated with an IT degree went back to school for another field because she kept getting stuck on helpdesks. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6133 Registered: 12-2005 |
I don't even use the term "IT" anymore until I know the person to whom I'm talking understands levels deeper than help desk operator and PC repairman. Anyone who thinks all the other products of IT just magically appear out of nowhere obviously isn't in a position of any significant influence anyway. Maybe they think help desk operators create everything in their spare time.  | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 384 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yeah, quality IT is really in experience, not just from training...anyone can learn it, but I believe you have to really be passionate about it to be good. Just about everything you need to know can be found online. Much love for usenet and enthusiast forums... I tinker around with IT stuff a bit myself, though by no means am I qualified for an enterprise-grade job. For example, allow me to blather about my latest project for a moment... Just this weekend I just built a minimalist Linux distro on an old Pentium 2 machine to allow me browse the web and listen to music out in my detached garage. It's connected to the house network via a wired connection to a Linksys router running DD-WRT, bridged to a router inside the house located in the wall-mounted comm. rack in my laundry room. It connects via a gigabit switch (not necessary for wireless -just pointing it out!) to my Linux server with 1 TB of storage on a software RAID5 array. The server not only serves up data, but acts as a PDC for my Windows terminals. Oh - I also installed a 5th Cisco VoIP phone in my garage, so I can call into the house to request a beer be delivered by hand. I'm still debugging that feature... Nobody in the house has to worry about their data integrity - all network-mapped drives are redundant and archived nightly to backup media. I even have some off-site encrypted transfers done to a client's datacenter for added security. It's fun, really. Kinda wish I went into an IT position for a living. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6144 Registered: 12-2005 |
So could it be that it was the lead story just because anything related to jobs of any kind is a hot topic in Michigan? Or was it that there is something truly significant about tech jobs in particular at this time and place? I would think that any lead story would have to have survived some additional scrutiny before approval so I'm skeptical about judging this story as BS. I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen a comparable headline like: "Michigan faces a shortage of doctors." That would be an important story, but would it have made the headlines? Why did this story make the headlines?! (Message edited by Jimaz on August 19, 2008) | ||
Funaho Member Username: Funaho Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2007 |
Wazootyman, Sounds a lot like my setup. MythTV plus a couple TB of backend storage makes for quite a nice video on demand system.  Anyhow most of my friends are IT types and it's been hard to find a decent job around here for years. While I noticed a lot of job posting most of them had very specific requirements that often included knowledge and experience with less common or even downright obscure software packages, which is probably why they can't find any takers. Very few of us young IT folk are going to have experience on that 25 year old software package still being used in the depths of Ford, and the people who did have experience with it were probably just laid off and/or moved away in frustration. Fortunately for me I managed to grab a temporary programming position at EMU that after a year turned into a full time position. It's a stable job with great benefits but the gas prices are killing me these days. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1130 Registered: 11-2003 |
If these firms are serious about this, and if, in fact, Funaho, you're right, they should offer training for the "younger workers" on the job to learn said antiquated software, as opposed to bitching you can't find anyone, fix the situation. Have the worker agree than if they get trained that they'll stay on the job for X period of time in exchange, so that workers don't train and run. p.s. MythTV rocks. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 8827 Registered: 03-2006 |
I think the story is at least partly true. If you know .Net or Java, there is demand for experienced people. I get calls and emails every day even though I already have all the work I can handle. | ||
Chuckjav Member Username: Chuckjav Post Number: 617 Registered: 09-2007 |
Media (garbage) reports spewing untruths about lack of qualified candidates for so-called high-tech employment - adds fuel to bonfire in Congress to boost limits on H-1B Visas. The rampant and unchecked sellout of our nation continues; it will not end until this country becomes the global leader in cheap labor category. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 322 Registered: 04-2007 |
I teach high school, in a technical, creative field, and the vast majority of my students can't wait to get out of Michigan. Not the suburb they live in, not Detroit, but Michigan. Those who want to stay want to move up north for the outdoors factor. Life can be pretty smooth here, if you still have the resources, and it can be relaxing, but it is not interesting. By that I mean interesting on a daily basis. I can find interesting things to do (and then drive to), but the little interesting things that happen in a real city as you walk down the street are missing. It used to be like that here 35 years ago, but not now. |
