 
Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Member
Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Post Number: 145
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 7:36 pm: |    |
Lilpup...I graduated in the environment of 4% tax-deductible student loans. 20 years ago, I'd bet the interest rates were twice as high. But yes. $189 gets automatically deducted from checking account on the 15th. Good times  |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4831
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 7:46 pm: | |
English, what do you think the response would be if you stood in front of a roomful of laid off engineers and said that?
Some degrees are more restricted than others...
(just found out my cousin's out of Ford as of last week)
(Message edited by lilpup on August 10, 2008) |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 782
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 8:01 pm: | |
Sorry, Lilpup, I erased my post without seeing your response.
Actually? I'm going to say something VERY controversial and elitist. My dissertation focuses on teachers. The #1 issue in education is the quality of the teaching force. We CANNOT continue to draw our teaching force from the bottom 1/3 of university classes and expect our students to compete in the 21st century. We cannot afford to have well-meaning, yet intellectually average people, teaching our students any longer.
This is not radical. Teach for America was founded on similar principles:
http://www.teachforamerica.org /
TFA is limited because of the short duration of the commitment. I would like to see teaching careers 20-30 years from now structured much more like the military. Rigorous intellectual and psychological examinations prior to entry, an intensive training period, and gradual progress through the ranks. Incompetence would be dealt with immediately -- as a firing offense. Job negligence would be seen as a national security risk.
In the interim, I believe we should recruit former engineers as AP teachers in our high school STEM classes. We have lost two generations of scientists and engineers from all but the best of our nation's schools because far too many high school teachers are not capable of teaching anything beyond algebra or basic biology. They should be paid DOUBLE what my peers and I are paid, not just given a few steps' credit.
I cannot think of many things that are more important to our nation's future. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4833
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 8:09 pm: | |
That's a good idea on the surface and I keep hearing about how the US isn't turning out scientists, but when scientists in the US are getting laid off (e.g. Pfizer as well as so many engineers), what's the incentive?
Scientists are more closely allied with the manufacturing sector (healthcare equipment, pharma, traditional manufacturing industries) than any other and it's manufacturing that's disappearing. |
Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Member
Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Post Number: 147
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 8:12 pm: | |
I'm going to take a different tack but stay on the same theme as English here. Jobs are neither created nor destroyed. There are always needs. I've known engineers who have taken jobs in marketing, specifically marketing very technical products. Also, I have an engineer friend at Ford whose new job is to coordinate the design and delivery of products from over 45 different vendors simultaneously. They needed an engineer who knew the specs to be able to effectively communicate to vendors. Here's some news: that's not really an engineering job...it's a project management job. The project management skills he's gained are transferrable to so many other sectors, including construction, mergers and acuqisition, consulting, etc.
Yes, your friend's job was eliminated. And there's no question that this notion of jobs transferring from one sector to another is extremely painful. I can't stress that enough. At the same time, there are jobs out there for people exiting the auto industry. God knows are health care system is a complete mess (see another DYes thread on $900 aspirins), suffering from inefficiency and mismanagement. There's a very high demand for process engineers who can transfer their expertise out of manufacturing efficiency into bureaucratic efficiency.
The possibilities are endless...for those who have and are willing/able to learn new marketable skills.
YPD |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4834
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 8:26 pm: | |
Actually that's along the lines of what I was just thinking. In the past it seemed that business and administrative tasks were in service of another aspect of a company (e.g. research, manufacturing, providing outside service) instead of being the main driver of the company. It's as if the rise of business school/executive culture over recent decades has flipped the hierarchies of company purposes. Product and service have taken a back seat to the bottom line and Wall St. demands. This culture also makes itself known in the public sector via tax arguments.
It's really been an unpleasant shift over the last 28 or so years, but with the current collapse there are small hints of it letting up.
btw: "I've known engineers who have taken jobs in marketing, specifically marketing very technical products. Also, I have an engineer friend at Ford whose new job is to coordinate the design and delivery of products from over 45 different vendors simultaneously. They needed an engineer who knew the specs to be able to effectively communicate to vendors."
Those types of jobs traditionally were held by engineers. Putting non-technical people in them is exactly the type of shift I mean, much like having a person with limited or no technological knowledge in charge of NASA (which they had for a while) or Ford.
(Message edited by lilpup on August 10, 2008) |
Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Member
Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Post Number: 149
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 8:42 pm: | |
This shift is the byproduct of specialization, which one can argue provides for better quality goods and services to the consumer...but also creates all sorts of social havoc while companies shift employees around to meet the consumer needs.
For example, I have a friend who did research for Pfizer. 3 years ago he left Pfizer to start his own company. What does he do? He and his 10 employees specialize in finding small pharmaceutical start-ups who have found a chemical mechanism and selling them the the skill of taking that mechanism and turning into a deliverable drug in pill or liquid form.
Interesting, yes?
Well my friend, the researcher, no longer does the actual research to take 'x' cure and turn it into 'abc' pill. His sole job is to cold call the companies and sell them the service. Companies are "outsourcing" the areas where they have no competitive advantage (like converting a chemical cure into pill form) and focusing on the the things they do most well (like finding the cure). How did I meet him? I manage his company profit/sharing and pension plan. So here we have an example of 3 completely different aspects which would have once fallen under the umbrella of 1 company. Now we've split up to focus on our own specialties.
That's a big part of what is happening. Is it good? In some ways. Is it bad? Well, it creates a complete tornado while people are shuffling around. And in Metro Detroit? Where we have been delaying this shuffle for decades? It's catastrophic, because we're essentially trying to do 10 years of gradual change all at once.
Is the net effect positive or negative? Well, let's make that another thread. Seriously. But will we get past it? We can...
...if we have the qualified workforce with the creative thinking, critical thinking, and communications abilities.
Ergo, yes, I advocate for the value of a college education. (to bring it all back to where we started)
YPD |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3030
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 8:42 pm: | |
Basically, English wants the teaching certification curriculum in the United States to be more similar to Europe: more rigorous, more prestigious, more examinations to pass in order to teach in the classroom. The teachers unions will oppose this radical plan though. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 783
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:13 pm: | |
The days of the teachers' unions are numbered, Ltorivia.
I say that without malice. I've been a proud member of the AFT since 1999.
The Europeans have their issues with teacher training as well. They have smarter teachers, but not necessarily teachers who can deal with the tidal wave of immigrant children, and definitely not teachers with the skills to work with special education students.
21st century American workers will be far more like their 18th century counterparts than the 20th century. Much like our pioneering, immigrant, indentured, and enslaved ancestors, they will have to be entrepreneurial, adaptable, and self-contained. They will have to have transferable skills. I'm finishing up a dual Ph.D in English and education, but along the way, I've picked up skills in corporate training and development, video production, grant writing, policy brief writing, and data analysis. So if there aren't any principalships or professorships available, I'll be a great candidate in several fields.
Most of today's teachers cannot make the chameleons that the 21st century needs. We are training our kids for a new world using an Industrial Age factory model...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =pMcfrLYDm2U |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4835
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:15 pm: | |
YPD, I'm not sure you understand. What you describe isn't new. The shift I'm trying to describe resulted in bottom line business people trying to 'manage', 'administrate', whatever, a technically oriented project or company but not having the technical experience or knowledge to do so, because the technical aspects have not been the priority. That has been the problem, not specialization. Specialization can (and does) easily occur within a large company without detrimental effect.
I'll even go so far as to say that in some cases this lack of specialization in larger companies, cut in the name of cost savings, is what's caused some of the larger companies to slide.
(Message edited by lilpup on August 10, 2008) |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:35 pm: | |
For my money, the quality of the degree is almost as important as the relevancy of the degree. The working atmospheres I came from (automotive technical writer) and am in now (legal) are night and day in nature but are very similar in that the skills required by the respective employers are diverse and varied.
A degree from a school focused on a diverse yet specialized workforce will go a longer way than a degree too vague or missing an element of real world experience.
Personally, I intend to be a life-long student as I enjoy the challenge of learning and secondly I plan to be in the workforce a long time so updating my skills will be essential to elongated success.
My vision of the perfect job is one that I've envisioned for a long time and does not include any specific workplace environment as I anticipate telecommuting for myself.
I foresee virtual corporations or at least those that are not solely brick and mortar and the employees of these companies may never even meet their employees...I believe this is the next logical step for some corps as the infatuation with outsourcing slows, fades and eventually ends as the newest evasion of taxation policies is found by progressive entities. It proves to be an interesting and exciting time. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:47 pm: | |
English,
I believe your prognostications are dead on target. It is not a pretty sight for some but a reality nonetheless. Education should provide a solid basis for problem solving and creative solutions not only the fundamental basis my generation received. I fear they currently do not.
With the lack of fundamentals let alone transferable skills as you mentioned in the latest generation, I think we may see a generation that needs to be coddled by our government as the world will unlikely wait for them to catch up to them.
I cannot criticize the teachers too much as I remain removed from those classrooms but I believe the collective school system seldom lets them display the talents and motivations many had to become teachers in the first place.
Unfortunately the innocent victims of these situations are those that will someday make decisions regarding our futures and possibly fates... |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 565
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:56 pm: | |
Just thought I'd toss another quick word. For anyone considering going to grad school immediately after getting a bachelors, your chances for scholarships and grant money is much better. Just something to consider. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4836
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:57 pm: | |
Arguably there's one in the WH right now, except it was Daddy and his upper crust buds who did the coddling until he was elected to public office, then Rove took over. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 10:14 pm: | |
Wolverine,
As I am a candidate for grad school, can you expound on or source your last comment? Thanks... |
Bcscott
Member
Username: Bcscott
Post Number: 40
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 10:35 pm: | |
Two of my friends graduated from Wayne State about five years ago. They're both doctors and I think they each had in the neighborhood of $140,000 of student loans to pay off. Most doctors don't make that much their first three years out of med school either. I can't imagine how much their monthly installments are. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1628
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 10:40 pm: | |
It's worth the extra effort, that's why people do it.
Education Level Average
Lifetime Earnings
Professional degree $4.4 million
Doctoral degree $3.4 million
Master's degree $2.5 million
Bachelor's degree $2.1 million
Associate's degree $1.6 million
Some college $1.5 million
High school graduate $1.2 million
Non-high school graduate$1 million |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:06 pm: | |
Simply, education is an investment (in self). You decide whether to make the investment. Seek the advice of those who are already at the place you want to be. Receive your input from a multitude of counselors.
Many line workers love(d) the money, but hate(d) the grind. To chase the money, is to disrespect oneself.
Lefty2, please state your source. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:15 pm: | |
http://www.lorainccc.edu/Futur e+Students/College+Graduates+E arn+More.htm
just a quick google search.
US Census bureau |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4838
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:16 pm: | |
"To chase the money, is to disrespect oneself."
but to become impoverished or homeless in pursuit of a dream? |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:23 pm: | |
"To chase the money, is to disrespect oneself."
That has to be one of the dumbest statements ever, whoever made it.
Money and wealth is a great thing not a bad thing. To become obsessed with it and factor all your behaviors around it is I will agree.
Why do so many people think those with money are greedy bad people? Must be the liberal media playing on the poor. |
Lowell
Moderator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4940
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:27 pm: | |
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 6:08 pm:
------------------------
What did Henry Ford, Albert Kahn and Berry Gordy all have in common?
None of them completed high school.
Schooling is not everything obviously. I think it is becoming increasingly irrelevant, beyond the basic three r's, due the the rapid pace of change of information and knowledge and the way business is done -- project by project with short business life.
Education is still in largely in an industrial age model where the students are the assembly line products and the teachers specialized workers plugging in the 101, 201, 301... parts into the students as they roll by. By the time they come off the end of the line a lot of what they learn can be obsolete and disconnected from real world enterprise.
I think a person is educated when they are curious, know how to find answers, know how to organized the what they find and have the social skills to engender cooperation.
One more thing... Due to the rapid pace of new knowledge, school is in forever. 20% of my time is spent keeping up and getting ahead with new knowledge. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 6068
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:36 pm: | |
Lately it seems that knowledge and power have already begun to diverge toward separate camps.
The Discuss Detroit » NON-DETROIT ISSUES » Science Wrong Again thread seems to illustrate the current administration's attitude toward knowledge as their opponent. The possibility exists that knowledge is being increasingly forced underground. Their making knowledge unaffordable and unprofitable would be an understandable means of accomplishing that end.
Courage to those who carry the torch through these difficult times. The Age of Enlightenment is in your hands. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1093
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:37 pm: | |
The cost of education can be almost prohibitively expensive. And yes, one may become indebted to others for the privilege. However, that is not to say individuals do not have a choice.
Lilpup, you may have missed the point, which is this. Chase yourself.
Virtually everything in life has costs. Time, which we can never get back. The foregoing of some immediate pleasures. Relationships cost as well. No victim here. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4839
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:46 pm: | |
"Lilpup, you may have missed the point"
Not really. At the beginning of the year I walked away from an intolerable but ok paying work situation. I've been hanging by my nails headed down a new path since. It's been up in the air whether I should get a supplemental job while pursuing this or take the grad student route to compliment what I'm doing. The downside of another Masters is the expense plus the possibility of not finding a job in the area when completed. I'm trying to stay in the area, or at least within a few hours drive, especially since my elderly parents live here. |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 891
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 12:09 am: | |
Lowell makes some good points. We can educate ourselves if we dont have the time money or discipline for college. Subscribe to US News And World Reports. Read the Wall Street Journal. Be objective and consider opposing viewpoints. Read Libertarian; Liberal; Socialist; Communist; Conservative; Anarchist; and far right periodicals. Visit Government websites. Google search pros and cons of national health care-gun control etc. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1094
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 3:15 am: | |
OK, Lilpup. What you have described is a near desperation type situation. Usually not optimal circumstances for making best life choices. If possible, think long and hard about the next steps, hopefully avoiding making the situation worse in any way. Here is where business relationships can help. Cultivate relationships with others in your field in order to "connect" with those who have like aspirations and believe in you.
That said, some of the best investments one can make are in oneself, such as education, or good health habits. Often these investments are misrepresented as inordinate arrogance, however I respectfully disagree. In the case of education, it is an admission of a deficiency - that you do not know something (yet). And education can take tremendous courage, branching out into the unknown ("new" knowledge or ideas). It builds self confidence and independence, which is always to your advantage. Education is only wasted when it is not used.
Intelligent people that know you personally likely could provide the best suggestions regarding your particular situation. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 3086
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 7:22 am: | |
" Be a hobo, it sure beats sitting in a cubicle. "
Yeah, I really dig the hob health care package. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 7:54 am: | |
Lowell and Terryh both make some insightful and valid points and truth be told I did pursue some of the alternative points of view and contrarian side of history etc. Eventually, whether we approve or not, many employers demand a degree and to try and convince them that you are worthy without one is just not feasible or likely as an interview may not even be granted.
It is merely a criteria used to sort through candidates. Frankly, I was tired on being on the same pile of candidates and chose to be on the other. Hopefully I am not too disillusioned about what it may or may not really do for me... |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2743
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 3:58 pm: | |
quote:What's the value of a degree anymore? The word "degree" gets thrown around like it means something specific but it encompasses Harvard Law degrees, MIT engineering degrees, Stanford MBAs and all the fluff degrees from our local fluff schools (college names withheld to protect the egos of the sensitive and naive).
Graduate from a selective university with a rigorous degree and you'll absolutely have something of value. Send a mediocre HS student with mediocre grades and scores to a mediocre college filled with other mediocre students in an uncompetitive environment, and when they graduate with a degree in whatever field they thought sounded easy and somewhat interesting and was blissfully free of 8:00 a.m. and Friday classes and you'll have a "degreed" half-wit. No, their degree won't be worth much more than the four year drinking binge it really was.
So, "What's the value of a degree anymore?" It depends on what you call a degree. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4841
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 4:11 pm: | |
"Harvard Law degrees, MIT engineering degrees, Stanford MBAs"
elitist much? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2914
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 4:14 pm: | |
I regularly get resumes from college graduates that have atrocious misspellings, no formal style to the cover letter, if there is one, and seem more concerned with what chunky font to use than what they're trying to express. I doubt they would have been graduated from my high school, let alone college.
It's just inertia, if you ask me. Back in the 1950s, a college education meant something. It meant you were willing to turn your energies toward learning, and teachers would fail you if you didn't learn. So people treasured a college diploma. As for these days, well ... |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2744
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 4:39 pm: | |
quote:"Harvard Law degrees, MIT engineering degrees, Stanford MBAs"
elitist much? Realistic much? Some folks think one university is just as good as the next, one major is just as in-demand as another, and then they complain when they wind up in a cube as a glorified telemarketer. There's a world of difference between these things called generically, "degrees". It's not elitist to acknowledge obvious facts. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1385
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 8:52 pm: | |
$4.72 |
Ggores
Member
Username: Ggores
Post Number: 272
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 9:13 pm: | |
An academic education is fantastic, but what an employer wants is a strong resume. Mine reads like a case-study and has seen me through some very, very tough times. But at it's roughest, I resorted to window washing, and funny enough - I loved it! Even wrote a song about it, "I wud bown wit a squeegie in my haaaaaaaaand, I'm a window washin' man!" The mistake is to equate a degree with salary. That just don't fly anymore, rudimentary-speaking. Pursuing an academic education, I'd say, go back to point A and plan your road to success. That's the biggest mistake I see, kids not planning for the future, just kind of wallowing about, going here and there. Discover your passion and follow it. Makes sense, eh? |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 3609
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 9:38 pm: | |
it really boils down to you as an Individual..What do you want..what is important to you?...some people it is the prestige of titles, some it what they give back. some people it is what they create, some it is all about money etc...
if you are flexible, mobile, self-confident and not afraid to take risks; your future can be defined as your opportunities are made by you and timing ...
education; formal or informal..is never waisted on the adventurous..only on those who can't see it's potential |
Bcscott
Member
Username: Bcscott
Post Number: 45
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:10 pm: | |
Where I work there is an invisible wall. One side is the day staff with managerial, engineering, HR, and finance degrees. On the other side are the no degree having slugs like me who are forced to do shift work. If I want to advance, all I have to do is get a degree. The managers really don't care what it's in, they just want to see if you can stick with it long enough. |
Elimarr
Member
Username: Elimarr
Post Number: 64
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 1:20 am: | |
Agree with Gibran. Some professions require the "parchment." Where a degree is not a necessity, a number of people have succeeded with insight, ambition and charisma. So it's everything or nothing...you decide. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1945
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:22 pm: | |
I just obtained the BS degree last spring and at the same time landed a nice direct position with a good stable (somewhat) company. All my friends who are in the same field and have no degree can only secure temp jobs, that have unspecified short duration terms with fast un anticipated layoffs. I did the latter for ten years and gained very useful experience. It was that experience plus the degree that secured me this position. I would not have gotten in unless I had both. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 333
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 8:25 pm: | |
There is a recent discussion of this question at
http://www.americanprogress.or g/issues/2008/08/college_for_a ll.html
(this link is to an abstract; it contains a link to the full paper.) |
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