Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » The Great Divide of Harper Woods « Previous Next »
Top of pageBottom of page

Qdaddy77
Member
Username: Qdaddy77

Post Number: 139
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, so something has been riding on me since I moved to Harper Woods 5 years ago, and I think the last straw was this Morning. I live on the "East" side of 94, 2 houses from the Grosse Pointe Woods border. I went to vote this morning at Poupard. When I handed the girl my license, she said, "are you sure you vote here?" I said, "According to the poster outside I do." This is not the first time I have been made to feel like a resident without a city. When we first moved into town, I went to go get a library card and I was told I had to go to the GP library as I paid GP school taxes. A year after we moved in, my car was broken into, I called the HW Police who came over to take my report and the officer stated that this was the first time he had EVER been on our street. I thought he ment to file a report, but he ment JUST BEING THERE!

I call upon the great wisdom of the people of this board to help me answer a few questions I have:

1) why does the HW/GPW border run so jagged street by street and halfway on some blocks?

2) Why is there a GP elementary school in HW and why do some HW kids go to GP school? Does paying GP school taxes permit you to have a GPW park pass?

3) Has there ever been, or how could the part of HW, East of 94 be annexed by GPW or break away to form their own municipality?

More and more I feel that having I-94 run through our city has left a small portion out in the cold. We have no parks on our side, no communication from our city officials and I believe no representation in city government ( I do not know where all our city council members live, but I do know quite a few all ive on danbury). Just wondering if any one else feels this way.
Top of pageBottom of page

Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 717
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^^Qdaddy, I would suggest you go to your City Hall in Harper Woods and ask those very questions. You'll get the right answers there. Follow up here with a post letting us know if they answered your questions to your satisfaction. That's what the City Hall is there for.
Top of pageBottom of page

Sirrealone
Member
Username: Sirrealone

Post Number: 190
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If there are city council meetings, there is usually time for open discussion and this would be a good thing to bring up as it's a public forum. You could even share your concerns with your neighbors and see if any of them would be willing to come and speak.

What you're saying isn't co
Top of pageBottom of page

Pgn421
Member
Username: Pgn421

Post Number: 754
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

qdaddy- i live in HW,i feel the same as you did you get the newsletter from Wummell?he might be the person to ask
Top of pageBottom of page

Pgn421
Member
Username: Pgn421

Post Number: 755
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Qdaddy- Aug 11 , 7:30pm Harper Woods city council meeting. Residents attending meeting are to wear a red shirt. Jeff Wummell had a newsletter out a couple weeks ago.Did you get it? I will be at the meeting.We are going to take over the city.Enough is enough!
Top of pageBottom of page

Qdaddy77
Member
Username: Qdaddy77

Post Number: 140
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did get the wummell newsletter. That also made me feel like I didnt know what was going on in our city. I was going to email Mr Wummell too...Last year I actual voted for him as a write in candidate for city council. He was the ONLY candidate to come door to door in my neighborhood and I thought he had some good points. as far as my neighbors are concerned, I would talk to them, if I had any...both houses on either side are empty (one foreclosure, one decesed) and the people across the street are getting out of town as well.
Top of pageBottom of page

Pgn421
Member
Username: Pgn421

Post Number: 756
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Qdaddy- I think we should go to the meeting. Id like to talk to Wummell. I will be there.
Top of pageBottom of page

Zimm
Member
Username: Zimm

Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i maintain a property for my family that we've owned for about 60 years, and it's in HW, just east of 94. i've often wondered the same things that you have.

the HW/GP border is more of a mess than you think. the border not only runs mid-block, but actually mid-property in some cases. as a kid, my dad had a friend whose head slept in GP and feet were in HW.

if the Livonia/Plymouth situation with the former mental hospital property has shown one thing, it's that annexation isn't all that hard. you just need a majortiy of the folks ion the proposed annexed area to sign a petition, and then have a majority of the folks in that area + in the annexing municipality to vote for it in an election and viola! you're annexed.

get it done!
Top of pageBottom of page

Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome

Post Number: 1557
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure about this, but I think annexing township land is pretty easy, just as you describe; but taking land from another city is more problematic.

I think Lilpup is up on the various laws that govern this issue. Maybe she'll jump in with some insight.

That Livonia/Northville tussle has been intersting to watch. Shostak, had the development rights to the old hospital property. When Northville shot down the Shostak plan to build a mimi-village, Shostak moved in some mobile homes to house the 5 security guys who were guarding the old hospital grounds. Once the guards moved in, they registered to vote, then they petitioned Livonia to annex them.

Pretty tricky stuff.

If Livonia votes in favor of annexition, the citizens of Livonia will be on the hook to tear the old hospital down. I think the hospital grounds are classified a toxic site due to asbestos and buried gasoline/fuel oil tanks.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem

Post Number: 3656
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The border is irregular because the Village of Lochmoor (GPW) annexed land on its western border from Gratiot Twp in the early 1930's, probably to include new subdivisions within the village boundaries.

The Grosse Pointe (Rural Agricultural) School District was established in the early 1920's before the city limits of the Grosse Pointes had been defined, hence the spillover of the school district into Harper Woods.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole

Post Number: 3053
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, I 94 went in after the village limits were set, making it seem more divided then intended originally
Top of pageBottom of page

Dan_the_man
Member
Username: Dan_the_man

Post Number: 65
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're wrong about not having any parks on your side of the freeway, Salter Park is over there, right on the I-94 service drive.

Also, being a resident of Danbury myself, I can vouch that at least two current councilmen do live on the street. It does seem a bit lopsided.
Top of pageBottom of page

Sumas
Member
Username: Sumas

Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The word is detatch not annex. Then you go for a re-unification. It starts with a petition. Assuming you get adequate signatures, It goes to a vote in both cities. If the reunification is approved GPW. would have to compensate HW for a period of several years to compensate HW for loss of tax base.

Residents on Wayburn successfully had a re-un ification with GPP many years back. The first few efforts were unsuccessful but the school board got behind the petition and it succeeded in attaching One side of the street that was Detroit to GPP
Top of pageBottom of page

Qdaddy77
Member
Username: Qdaddy77

Post Number: 142
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is Salter Park the soccer fields behind the old folks home that you have to have a permit in order to play on?
Top of pageBottom of page

Norwalk
Member
Username: Norwalk

Post Number: 327
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I lived in Harper Woods for 12 years and raised 2 children there and always felt It was a bit like Berlin, a divided city. And not because of the ditch. The only thing that seemed to bring the city together was the Little League program. Which was always outstanding.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 7108
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very interesting debate. Which part of Detroit's Eastside do you want? Grab it before gentrification takes place.

jjaba, Westsider, lurking.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 7580
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you all considered about the tax base the neighborhood border diputes of Harper Woods and Snobbyville. I suggest in the next town hall meeting, that the folks of Harper Woods consider to de-annex those 2 city blocks east of Harper Rd./ I-94 FWY to Snobbyville.
Top of pageBottom of page

Applesauce
Member
Username: Applesauce

Post Number: 174
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I have to agree. Its a very unorthodox setup. I live right by Ghesquire (sp?) in HW & my kids go to Monteith Elementary in GPW, which we love, but how did they come up with that? Only 2 streets in HW that are GP schools can attend Monteith. My taxes are 5k/year which are in line with some of my friends in GPW, at least they get the Woods Park. Salter Park is not really a park. They definitely need to develop it & make it one! Btw, I agree 100% about the HW little league. Its a fantastic org, & I'm proud to be a part of it.
Top of pageBottom of page

Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the volunteer at the voting station wasn't 100% sure about your address location.
1. The boundaries for schools and cities were set many years age. School boundaries many years ago.
This is basic info. and should have been known before buying a home in a city.
The GP school district cuts partly into H.W. Thats why the houses go for more money there.
Many GP residents want to cut the school districts back to GP cities proper because of a downgrading of the school system.
GPW would NEVER ever consolidate Harper woods streets.

At least you GET a decent police response in HW, unlike the city to the west.
The old politico from St Claire Shores had a big influence on I94 route, I forgot his name.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 7109
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did they ever put "Exit here for the Grosse Pointes" on I-94?

Very interesting thread. Thanks.

Yes, it is normal for school districts and city limits to be different. Thousands of DPS students jump lines every schoolday for the surrounding suburbs, even though they are in the DPS District and live within the City.

So, with school shopping parents, the lines get even more blurred.

As younger cities expand, they often run into another school district. For example, the City of Portland, Oregon has its own PPS, and yet there are actually five districts serving the same city in the outlying areas. The same can be said for some city fire and police jurisdictions.

jjaba on the Westside.
Top of pageBottom of page

Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1524
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba,

Yes: "Grosse Pointe Communities, next 4 exits". At least coming from the northeast; I don't know if westbound Detroiters get the same message.

Prof. Scott
Top of pageBottom of page

Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 7110
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professorscott, thanks. If jjaba ever goes over there, he'll be sure to look for signs for Grosse Pointe. Damn, and right now, jjaba has socks on. He knows they're not allowed in GP in summertime.

jjaba, Westsider.
Top of pageBottom of page

Suma
Member
Username: Suma

Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When we lived in Northville Twp. A part of Novi has the same problem. The residents call their neck of the woods No Ville
Top of pageBottom of page

Novine
Member
Username: Novine

Post Number: 636
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Annexation between cities doesn't follow the same rules as annexation of townships to cities. You don't see annexation of property from one city to another except in some rare circumstances involving city-owned property or fractional portions of platted lots. I can only recall a few instances of annexation from one city to another. In more distant times, the city of Ann Arbor annexed the city of East Ann Arbor.

http://pittsfieldhistory.org/i ndex.php?section=history&conte nt=east_ann_arbor#annexation

If an annexation was to take place between two cities, with the exceptions listed, it requires approval by the voters of both cities voting separately.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/ mileg.aspx?page=getobject&obje ctname=mcl-117-9
Top of pageBottom of page

Novine
Member
Username: Novine

Post Number: 637
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Noville portion of Novi has a Northville ZIP and Northville schools. The one remaining portion of Novi Township is also Northville ZIP and Northville schools even though they are within spitting distance of Novi's city hall. There's a portion of Farmington Hills that has Northville ZIP too. On the south border of Northville Township, some of their residents have a Plymouth ZIP but I think are Northville schools. Blame the school boundaries from the days of one-room school houses.
Top of pageBottom of page

Ro_resident
Member
Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 330
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

School districts are their own political entity in Michigan. They are not part of city or county general government. The school superintendent reports to the school board, not to a city council or county board of commissioners.

That's why school districts have boundaries that aren't always concurrent to other political dividing lines.

So you end up with a district such as "The School District of the City of Royal Oak" that has boundaries that a) doesn't include all of the City of Royal Oak, and b) includes portions of neighboring cities.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 7119
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ro tells it like it tis.
Thanks.

jjaba, Westsider.
Top of pageBottom of page

Spiritofdetroit
Member
Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 1162
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hahaha
Top of pageBottom of page

1953
Member
Username: 1953

Post Number: 1588
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cities and school districts are not analogous.

Hence, you are part of GP schools and the city of Harper Woods.

1953
Top of pageBottom of page

Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 3082
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah thats true, there is also part of East Detroit/Pointe that is in the Lakeview (St Clair Shores) district. Its the neighborhood just north of East 8 Mile, between I-94 and Kelly.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 3083
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Northville and Northville Township are also straddling two counties.
Top of pageBottom of page

Taj920
Member
Username: Taj920

Post Number: 328
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Townships do not cross county lines, Northville Township is completely in Wayne.
Top of pageBottom of page

Ahartz
Member
Username: Ahartz

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While we lived on Lochmoor, 1995-2004, my wife wanted to start a effort to rename HW to Grosse Pointe West, like the East Detroit, Erin Heights and finally Eastpointe effort. We felt the city did get short shrift when it came to parks and such.

and I just love the signs for GP on the highway...andy
Top of pageBottom of page

Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 3084
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Townships do not cross county lines"

Townships do not cross county lines. yep.

Why spend money to rename HWs ? That drive made no sense to me.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 3085
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The city is equally divided between Oakland and Wayne Counties. The Oakland County portion is surrounded by the city of Novi. The Wayne County portion is surrounded by Northville Township. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N orthville,_Michigan

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.