Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » Please vote "Yes" on Aug. 5th to save the Detroit Zoo « Previous Next »
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11980
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm curious how much funding is allocated to it. My original claim still holds. Because people may unknowingly support a few dollars at the BI Nature Zoo at the polls does not remotely imply they are voting to support 'regional jewels' in the city.
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 8003
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK Jt1, I have inquired for you. I will let you know what I hear.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 11981
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks JL - And as I have said. It is not the money and how it is allocated but the sudden support for 'regionalization' for the zoo that has not/does not/will not exist for institutions in the city limits.

I'm willing to guess that some people would have voted against this if they knew any dollars were going.

Regionalism is great. What we are getting is regionalism of convenience and geography by both the voters and more importantly the county governments. The fact that county governments were campaigning for the need to save the zoo and how it is the region’s responsibility to work together is one of the most disingenuous things we have seen/heard in years. I don’t have numbers to support it but I am comfortable claiming this to be fact.

I ask you: Would Macomb or Oakland Counties have campaigns to support a .1 mill increase if it supported any of the institutions I mentioned above. I would be willing to give odds that they will not if there is ever an equivalent initiative on the ballot for any institutions I have mentioned. The regional ‘leaders’ can pat themselves on the back on this one being all for regionalism but the second that an institution in a different area comes with their hands out the local leaders will be the first ones to insist times are tight and we just don’t have the funds to support it.

Brooks is still rallying against an increase in hotel taxes for COBO and has much of his constituency believing that they are being taxed. He is unwilling to tax out of towners for something in the city but happily insists we need to come together. Let me know when there is any hope of true regionalism and I will be the first one at the fire singing cumbaya
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11982
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correction - extension in hotel taxes, not an incerase.
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Gingellgirl
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Username: Gingellgirl

Post Number: 188
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, voters.
Simply . . . thank you.
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 326
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt- Are you sure you want to make COBO an issue with the headlines today? Isn't Patterson's main gripe that it is horribly mismanaged? Is there any doubt that this is true?

I'm not sure why Oakland County would want to fund Rouge Park. Does Wayne County help fund the Oakland County Parks system?

If you're familiar at all with the DIA you know that virtually all of its support comes from the suburbs; I'm not sure I get your point. It is true that despite the broad suburban support the DIA enjoys, a millage to fund the DIA would likely not be as warmly received as that for the Zoo. Could you think of any reasons that this might be the case other than geography? What about the Detroit Historical Museum?

I'm all for regionalism. It seems, however, that when some people on here talk about regionalism it means sending money from the suburbs to the city exclusively. When money goes from the city to the suburbs it's called sprawl- or, like in the case of the zoo, there is some other indecipherable argument to explain why it isn't really an example of "true" regionalism.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 8288
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus - You just hit one out of the park - kudos. Regionalism IS seen by most Detroit boosters on this site as a one way street. They seem to have this fantasy that they have already subsidized sprawl in the past even though it has been thoroughly debunked.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11983
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Jt- Are you sure you want to make COBO an issue with the headlines today? Isn't Patterson's main gripe that it is horribly mismanaged? Is there any doubt that this is true?



I agree that it is mismanaged but LBP has insisted that he does not want to support an extension of the hotel tax because OC pays more. He has never been honest about this in rallying the people of OC on his side. He typically implies this is a tax on residents and he will not support it. He has made his opposition clear regarding mismanagement (I agree with him) and his unwillingness to support an extension of the hotel tax (I disagree with him).

quote:

I'm not sure why Oakland County would want to fund Rouge Park. Does Wayne County help fund the Oakland County Parks system?



No but the taxpayers in the region support HMCA parks in OC. My point was about regional support of convenience. Since there are no HMCA parks in Detroit I thought I would throw a park in there to bring up HMCA and its regionalism of convenience.

quote:

If you're familiar at all with the DIA you know that virtually all of its support comes from the suburbs; I'm not sure I get your point.



I am referring to the couties getting behind the support of the zoo in addition to the voters. Like the DIA, the zoo has many donors. I respect people who support imstitutions they enjoy. Implying that donors in suburbs (or anywhere) are the same as county backed and voter backed support for a mill is just incorrect.

quote:

It is true that despite the broad suburban support the DIA enjoys, a millage to fund the DIA would likely not be as warmly received as that for the Zoo. Could you think of any reasons that this might be the case other than geography? What about the Detroit Historical Museum?



Those were examples but I assure you a mill increase for a DIA in OC would get OC county backing it. If there was a mivot eot increase taxes to support it there is no way in hell that OC or MC would insist it is a region treaure and support the campaign. Guess why?

quote:

I'm all for regionalism. It seems, however, that when some people on here talk about regionalism it means sending money from the suburbs to the city exclusively.



That is not what I am advocating. I just do not agree that the zoo (based upon geography) is a more important asset to support on a regional level. Would OC at the county, not voter, level campaign to support any institutions in the city. Absoutely, 100% not. That is an issue of regionalism of convenience.

quote:

When money goes from the city to the suburbs it's called sprawl- or, like in the case of the zoo, there is some other indecipherable argument to explain why it isn't really an example of "true" regionalism.



I think supporting the zoo with regional dollars is regionalism. I think that zeal that counties supported this would not happen if it physically resided in the city. If we are going to holler for regionalism I expect it to be reciproacted between counties. It won't happen. If you believe it will I will wait until there is a proposal for a nominal tax for any institution in the city or mass transit or any other initiative that will primarily help people in the city.

Not a hard concept. I support regionalism at its true intent not when it is financially or geographically convenient.

Let me know when OC or MC or taxpayers are lining up to support a tax increase for an institution in the city. I'll happily buy you some drinks and eat soem crow.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 11984
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Regionalism IS seen by most Detroit boosters on this site as a one way street



Incorrect. I am all for supporting things like HMCA, the zoo or any other cultural institution at a regional level if it is reciprocated.

The sprawl arguments are separate from this since those are oriented more around the cost of infrastructure, not tax dollars to support sepcific institutions.

The city of Detroit receives no benefit from the zoo but I am fine paying for it through regional taxes. What institutions in the city does the region support with no benefit to them?
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Jt1
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Post Number: 11985
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With all of the crying over Tiger Stadium was there any talk of regional support to implement the OTS plan? Nope, it was always "they (Detroit shoudl do something to save it".

Many of the supporters live in the suburbs but I certainly did not hear anyone at the county level stating it should be supported regionally. Why?
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 8006
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Really Jt1, you should be happy that Detroit is not subsidizing the Zoo by itself anymore. THAT was unfair. Now the Zoo is supported evenly amongst the counties where 83% of its visitors come from. Much more fair than the burden being solely on Detroit. Of course, Detroiters won't see the money they saved by sharing the burden, because its all in the pockets of the Kilpatrick family and friends, or spent on downtown while ignoring neighborhoods.
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 124
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think we can determine what this vote will mean for future attempts at regional funding. The next one proposed will be looked at more skeptically because it will be seen as a nickel and dime approach towards much higher taxes.

There is a lot of suburban love for the DIA and Belle Isle. The zoo put itself on the ballot and kept the language clean 'Save the zoo or lose it forever'. Belle Isle and DIA should follow suit without getting too many other institutions involved to add scrutiny.

The problem with Belle Isle (despite it's amazing beauty and architecture) is they don't charge admission, and I'd bet only a small percentage of the region ever goes there. At least the Zoo and metroparks are financed by the actual users to some extent.

Rouge Park is more of a sub-regional "gem" and I'd probably never go there while living in Macomb Co. It should still be supported by the metroparks system.

The entire State of Michigan should take more pride in the fair grounds. It is a dump, but won't get money because it serves it's purpose as an empty lot where the fair can be held.

I'm afraid anything that calls out the CHWMAAH would have a tough time passing in the burbs (I'm speaking from Warren's perspective). I'd guess all of the museums in the region would have to band together for a small millage.

My question is what more would Macomb ever get out of this? We've got no gems other than some lakefront property, and a couple parks and still we voted for the zoo. We're kinda in this just to keep the regions attractions afloat.
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Detroitrise
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Post Number: 3295
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO, Macomb county simply serves its original purpose (a sprawling county with sleeping bed suburban communities). It's just not as independent as Wayne & Oakland counties. A reasoanble portion of downtown Detroit's worker population lives in Macomb county.

Besides, Macomb county has all the retail for east side Detroiters (Gratiot Ave.), GM Tech Center, Selfridge Air Base (which is important to the whole state) & Metro Beach (all of Metro Detriotr uses it).

(Message edited by DetroitRise on August 06, 2008)
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 344
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Being a suburbanite, it is very hard to be financially supportive of Detroit initiatives. If the Zoo were still managed by Detroit instead of a non-profit, this funding increase would be DOA.

On a side note, how can Detroiters ask for help from the burbs and STILL continue to reelect numbskulls? They would probably get a lot more help if they would reject the incumbant criminals,IMHO.

P.S. I voted "YES" for the Zoo Proposal.
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Popcanman55
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Username: Popcanman55

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crystal I have been a Leader dog puppy raiser for over 20yrs and have puppy number 17 now.

We have taken our puppies to zoo's from New York to the National zoo. Never had a question about being let in EXCEPT Detroit.

Our puppies have flown on planes cross country and have been to all of the National monuments and museum's Without ever being questioned. They go to Tiger games, they have even been to the shooting range, they ride the DOT bus, They have been in the Space needle. They even goto church every Sunday and communion. NEVER a question.

Here is one of our Dogs http://www.hometownlife.com/ap ps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880 8030402

I will not support place that does not support a worthy cause like Leader Dogs. We have working Leader dogs all over the world. Why is their cause better than helping blind people???

What if the blind person takes their family to the zoo and the Dog becomes aggressive towards the animals. That is why we should be able to take FDL's into the zoo.
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Popcanman55
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Username: Popcanman55

Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yeah anybody with a Classic car should help support the Westland Lions club

Cruisin' with Culver's

What: A classic car show to benefit the Westland Lions Club
When: 5:30-9 p.m. Wednesday, Aug. 13
Where: Culver's, 6500 Newburgh, south of Warren Road, Westland.
For more information: Call (734) 721-4216
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11986
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Really Jt1, you should be happy that Detroit is not subsidizing the Zoo by itself anymore. THAT was unfair



I am happy. I will admit it took so long because the city was stubborn on turning over responsibilities to the zoological society. City's fault on that one taking so long.

quote:

Of course, Detroiters won't see the money they saved by sharing the burden, because its all in the pockets of the Kilpatrick family and friends, or spent on downtown while ignoring neighborhoods.



True.

I am not defending the actions of the city or their ability to govern.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11987
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Being a suburbanite, it is very hard to be financially supportive of Detroit initiatives.



How about places in the city that are not managed by the city?
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 235
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just loaded the extension ladder onto the roof of the Country Squire, gonna pick up a couple gallons of Sears Best exterior latex.

I'm headed down to the zoo to paint over that crook's name on the water tower.

I have just as much ownership as that fat bastard now.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 8011
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

How about places in the city that are not managed by the city?



Well, I DID give thousands and thousands of dollars to CCS over the course of 4 years... And now they are renovating the Argonaut building... So in a way.. I'M RENOVATING THE ARGONAUT BUILDING!

You're welcome, Detroit!
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Jt1
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Post Number: 11988
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) My question was to Warrenite's comment. I agree that the city does not manage money well but hsi post implies that the thought is that anything in the city is managed by the city and therefore will have more trouble passing.

The truth is many of these institutions are not managed by the city but many of the voters will not consider that.

The fact that a place as amazing as the CWMAAH would probably be shot down (as satted above) is a damn shame and speaks volumes about this region.

I don't care what color you are or were you live 'And we still rise' is one of the best installations I have ever seen.
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Crystal
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Username: Crystal

Post Number: 250
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Popcanman55, I would love to meet you!

17 puppies! I am humbled.

I share your frustration, believe me. For several years we had a membership to Greenfield Village. GV is almost always the number one attraction out-of-town visitors want to see, and we are happy to take them. GV's policy is that they grant access to service dogs in training over one year old. Usually we are not willing to get a puppy sitter, so we forego the trip altogether. In our view, everybody loses with this policy. The visitors miss seeing GV, and GV loses these visitors to spread the word and spend money. GV loses good publicity (everyone notices a Leader Dog puppy!). Most importantly, the puppy misses out on valuable experiences while highly impressionable: the whistle and rumble of a steam train, the sights, sounds, and scents of farm animals, costumed people, varied walking surfaces, open fires, and the many other experiences of the Village and Museum. We believe that the benefits of granting access to service dogs in training far outweigh the relatively small chance that a puppy will get loose or become disruptive.

It is the same story with the Detroit Zoo. We do not visit with out-of-town visitors because we do not want to get a puppy sitter.

On the other hand, kudos goes to many businesses and other places, including:

- The Detroit Symphony Orchestra (and the other concert goers!) which last summer invited Leader Dog puppies and their families to a concert. There were some startled pups when the cannon went off during the 1812 Overture!

- Kensington Metropark for hosting a boat ride for puppies on the Island Queen, and for allowing the puppies to encounter farm animals up close.

- Metro Airport for hosting an outing so puppies could get used to loud noises, moving sidewalks, stairs, and elevators.

- School athletic directors and other administrators who have allowed puppies on school grounds so they can experience marching bands, soccer, football, track, and other school activities.
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 206
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm curious---what are the "official" explanations for not allowing Leader Dog puppies on the zoo and village grounds?

Our own dog, One-Eye Charlie, may need a Leader Dog one day! He's starting to bump into things.
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Crystal
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Username: Crystal

Post Number: 251
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'm curious---what are the "official" explanations for not allowing Leader Dog puppies on the zoo and village grounds?"

Popcanman55 would be able to answer that question better than I, but my guess is that the zoo and village worry the puppies will scare the animals. It's just a guess, though. When I have respectfully asked the reasons for not admitting service doges in training, I have never received a straight answer.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 345
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, I have and will always support private businesses in Detroit when I can.

If the city government cannot hold a high standard for ethics AND managerial know-how, taxes collected for Detroit would be wasted. People in the burbs will not write a blank check for something they have no say so over. Especially mismanaged bureaucracies.

I have always been irked paying taxes to Detroit when I worked there, and not even get HALF of a vote. Taxation without representation.

Regionalism works best when EVERYBODY SHARES. (taxes, ownership, & managerial responsibilities)
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 3574
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeez-louize, Cinderpath.

Read my post more throughly next time.

They put the specter of closing down the zoo if their tax didn't pass, and you know what, it worked.

Congratulations to the Zoo Tax supporters and their partners in the mass media for all the work they poured into their campaign.

You were obviously extremely easily duped into believing that closing the Zoo would really happen if they didn't get their tax.

Heaven forbid, they...gasp, raise the price of admission, parking, concessions or souvenirs to make ends meet.

You know, have it where those who use the Zoo, actually pay for the Zoo.

Johnlodge, et al. can rest assured that when they cannot muster up enough support for the Zoo (I'm predicting that Michigan's economy is still heading south...we haven't hit bottom yet), that all that's needed is to trot out W.B again and produce more diabetic-inducing advertising.

Your side won. You successfully compelled government to take money from people who have not or do not want to visit the Zoo, to support a project that you obviously support. You succeeded in your task at hand.

Sit back in your easy chairs, and wait for those government checks to arrive. Your job is done.

But I leave you with a warning as my last comment on this thread.

Be careful in what you convince government to take away from others, because in the future, they can just as easily take something away from you.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 237
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The one certainty of government beyond all others is majority rules.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 769
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The one certainty of Mcp001 beyond all others is that at any given moment he's railing about having to pay taxes.
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Popcanman55
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Username: Popcanman55

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Zoo will not give a reason why they are not allowed. Greenfield village used to allow Future Leader Dogs but does not anymore and will not give a reason. Meijer's on 13 mile and Little mack will also not allow them however most other's and Walmart will allow them.
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Popcanman55
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Username: Popcanman55

Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Zoo will not give a reason why they are not allowed. Greenfield village used to allow Future Leader Dogs but does not anymore and will not give a reason. Meijer's on 13 mile and Little mack will also not allow them however most other's and Wallmart will allow them.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 516
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 3:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a passage from this link (http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/n ewsletters/v7n2/7n2hende.htm), discussing the Americans with Disabilites Act of 1990, Title III, specifically addressing service animals:

"Of all sections of the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title III references service animals most directly. Title III prohibits discrimination of people with disabilities in public accommodations and services operated by private entities. Section 12182(b)(2)(A) clarifies specific prohibitions on discrimination on the basis of disability, and includes in the definition of discrimination:

a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations. (42 USC 12182(b)(2)(A)(ii))

The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) implementing regulations (15) clarify "modifications in policies, practices, or procedures." 28 CFR Section 36.302(c) specifically addresses service animals and clarifies that "Generally, a public accommodation shall modify policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of a service animal by an individual with a disability" (see AWIC Newsletter vol. 6 #2-4--Americans with Disabilities Act and its Applicability to Zoos). The regulation further clarifies that public accommodations are not required to supervise or care for a service animal."

I hope this helps.
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Crystal
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Username: Crystal

Post Number: 252
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The federal law that grants access to service dogs does not apply to puppies or service dogs in training. Future Leader Dogs are not granted access anywhere, except by permission of the store, restaurant, etc.

Service dogs are granted access everywhere, I believe, except restaurant kitchens and operating rooms.

We have found only a few places that do not allow service dogs in training. The Ann Arbor Transit Authority does not allow FLD's on its busses, but the U-M bus system is happy to accommodate them.

Every time I start to write to the Detroit Zoo and Greenfield Village, I get mad and have to put the letter aside... To us and probably to other puppy raisers, their policy on this matter has its roots in ignorance and the mistaken belief that puppies will run wild or jump up on visitors.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 8016
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Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Johnlodge, et al. can rest assured



Hey, why am I the ringleader? I wasn't even hostile towards your opinion, nor did I gloat when it passed! :-)
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 220
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge, stirring up shit again.....
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 734
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We saved Lansing from going broke by raising our local taxes to replace state money again and again and again.

How about a three county tax for SMART so we don't have gaps in service or bus service reductions? How about if both the state and county pay?

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