 
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 10:46 pm: |    |
Most Detroiters, in my experience, want and will accept support, BuyAmerican. But not in a disrespectful way, and not in a way of "I know what you need and you don't."
The concept of someone "saving" an area implies that you, the saver, is better than the savee to some. This is an especially touchy distinction when dealing with a majority population that quite frankly has had a history of oppression.
A lot of suburbanites have the best of intentions but they still subconsciously look at it as "them" "over there." Regardless of intent, the psychological mindset is there.
So many people who comes to the city want to be white knights on golden horses; when really, to make a difference, you need to be willing to be one of the people, and that means all people. And that means having real, respectful conversations. And spending time. And not treating Detroit like an urban tourist destination that has cool buildings.
What if I came into your house, told you how your pots should be stacked and where the ketchup goes in the fridge, and by the way, your couch belongs on another wall? Your gut reaction would probably be to tell me to f-off. And you'd be justified. Well, that's what most suburbanites do. It's the vibe of "oh, look, you can't take care of yourself, and I know better." Most suburbanites don't care to learn or understand the intricacies or unique needs or reasons of situations, they just assume "they" don't know what they're doing. And I used to be that guy.
As to DR's point - I know where there are thousands of light bulbs. And no, one light bulb does not light the whole room - but it sure does help. If you have that attitude about life, that you're just one person, then you may as well quit because you'll never affect change anywhere anyhow.
You are the biggest stumbling block to the change you seek to create, Detroitrise. |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 456
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 11:22 pm: | |
If "it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness".....then you've just switched on the halogens!
So happy you've "seen the light", DigitalV. Welcome to the fold.
(Message edited by eastsidedame on July 26, 2008) |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 676
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 11:48 pm: | |
Digitalvision, I've never known of any suburb being disrespectful towards Detroit...I would appreciate an example. Detroit has notoriously shunned anyone who lived past 8 Mile, you know it and I know it.
I couldn't imagine even wanting to be in a place where I wasn't wanted. That's the feeling that many suburbanites get from Detroiters, yet, many suburbanites want to help turn the City around...without having ulterior motives.
I appreciate your analogy about coming into my home and wanting to change things, and yes, you're absolutely right, I'd tell you where to go. However, I don't believe that is happening. I believe that Detroiters just don't want a white person suggesting things to them that may possibly make Detroit a better place.
I am a suburbanite who lived in Detroit for 48 years. I do know the intricacies and unique needs or reasons of situations. What I can't understand is why, when I left my neighborhood, it was clean, my house was immaculate and was sold to a lovely couple whom I thought would love the home as much as we did. A year later you couldn't recognize the home. Doors hanging off the hinges, windows broken, three cars parked on the grass, trash everywhere. I didn't do that, they did. I certainly never presumed that I would need to tell them how to take care of the home, how to keep it clean and neat? I thought they would know how and I would never insult someone in that way. What happened in that instance and in the thousands of instances throughout the City?
I do know that when Detroit has a "clean-up the City" day, that the majority of people out there picking up trash or helping to tear down a dilapidated home are white suburbanites who simply would like to see Detroit shine like it once did. Sorry to say this, but Detroit does need saving.
Look at what it's become and who is to blame for it? Some blame whites for leaving the city (white flight) in the shape it's in today but that is simply not true. Detroit residents have to take a long hard look at themselves and start taking responsibility for cleaning up their neighborhoods, reporting drug houses, reporting gang activity. Detroit needs a new administration, from the top all the way down. The Police Department needs new leadership and they need to have their hands untied so they can do their jobs. It seems like the higher ups handcuff the police rather than the thugs.
Fire protection is terrible and the moral in the Department is at an all time low. The men and women who fight fires don't have proper equipment to protect them, the trucks are antiquated and most of the time they don't work. Some of the firehouses don't have working kitchens and the firemen/women live in those houses for 24 hours a shift. Plumbing, heating and air conditioning is broken half the time. Yet Detroit wants to take care of itself, with no help from those who could offer a helping hand. I will never understand the mentality of those who feel that way and God help Detroit. KK and his entourage will pull it down to the gutter before it's over. |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 459
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 2:35 am: | |
KK and his entourage will pull it down to the gutter before it's over.
This is downright creepy.I think the mayor needs psychological help, and his cronies use that to their advantage. Only a sociopath would consciously destroy this city, and think he was doing good. I'm not being mean when I question KKs sanity. Some of it is megalomania and arrogance, sure. But at the Red Wings party, The Clueless One actually seemed surprised by the boos. Delusions of grandeur, perhaps?
Calling Dr. Phil!
Q:Why did it take Detroit only 6 months to get rid of Mayor Charles Bowles?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,739380,00.html
A: Only because it took someone dying to get it the job done:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,739981,00.html
Meanwhile, 6 full YEARS into his regime, the KKockroach is still there, pooping on everything. This history lesson is one Detroit hasn't learned, yet, I guess: Throw the bums out.. What would happen if the people petitioned the Feds to do a complete audit of Detroit finances? LOL Watch the evil ones just evaporate!
I reiterate: Throw the bums out.. I can't stress this enough. If you did your job like KK does his, would you still even HAVE a job? Does someone have to die (again) before we are free of the plague.
Ah, my dear Detroit, when will we learn? Are we half the citizens our grandparents were? Did they have more guts then us? Is it because Fred Green was a good governor and sided with the will of the people, instead of his own political interests, like Granholm? If I remember the story correctly, Green DID NOT block Bowles' removal, and in fact supported the people of Detroit 100%+. I believe the State of Michigan even offset some recall election expenses.
Maybe we should just Kick Kwame's Kleptocracy to the Kurb in a coup....like some fed-up banana republic?
(sorry for the rather spastic web oratory; I'm just real passionate about this subject) |
Suma
Member
Username: Suma
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 3:50 am: | |
KK's racist rant was deeply disturbing. I still contend that the city has many vibrant residents who have and will make a difference for a new Detroit. The mayor must go. The City Clownsel too. The past several elections have been questionable in veracity (local and federal). Real Detroiters no longer look to our disfunctional government to effect improvements. We are simply taking our parks, schools and neighborhoods back little by little. Suburban, corporate and church partnerships are appreciatiated by concerned residents. Does Detroit have serious problems. Of course. Just don't write it off as an urban wasteland. |
Rid0617
Member
Username: Rid0617
Post Number: 230
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 4:51 am: | |
When I first entered this forum nothing could talk me out of moving to Detroit. While I am still pro moving to Detroit we have slowed way down and it will not be this summer as we planned. The high taxes and high home owners insurance was a shocker, the high car insurance was a real surprise.
We have figured how we can live with that because that is within our control. What has slowed us down is the Kwame fiasco and we have decided we will hold off until he is removed or his term ends. Thousands of people I believe are considering Detroit but will not consider it while they watch the mayor and council slowly take it down even farther.
No one wants to be positive in a mess if they see no leadership where it would make a difference. In the meantime we sit down here, live on this forum, the Detroit News online and watch channel 4 news online.
In the meantime we are going through the house throwing away things that are not necessary to lighten the load for the movers and the wallet. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 678
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 8:42 am: | |
You may also want to consider the fact that crime is running rampant throughout Detroit. Just heard on WXYZ Breaking News that 5 people were murdered last night in separate incidents. The City is dying a slow death and it's citizens are killing each other. Does it make sense to you to put your family at risk at this time? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7545
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 8:49 am: | |
WARRING!
If Detroit dies, the suburbs die, too. |
Ggores
Member
Username: Ggores
Post Number: 215
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 9:15 am: | |
Better peace and quiet could not be found on the face of the earth than a leisurely drive thru the hum-drums on a Shining Summer Saturday. John Wayne was on the free-cable television, wearing a sheriff's badge, Musky reported a band of gofer's down by the persimmon patch, and in the dim-lit cave, we gaggled and laffed out loud. A fallen television antenna, fifty feet high, lays across the roof of a house across the street, fallen onto the front lawn. The young boys who live in that house, they rip down the telephone wires, make bonfires at night, heat up the copper wire shrouding, and get maybe three pounds of the metal. ATT comes out and replaces those wires about every other week. And those boys tear them down again and heat up the shrouding to facilitate stripping the insulation off of that wire. We speculate about what copper is actually going for these days. I think maybe 25, 30 cents a pound. Little friend, who is arguably smarter, estimates about 40 cents a pound. Nice conversation, eh? The house next door has plywood windows. Wooden windows, I've noticed, is a growing trend. The house next to that house has wooden windows also. The third house in the row is nearly deplete of all aluminum siding. Why, just five weeks ago, it was a very nice and pleasant looking house, but now it nearly gone. And so we sit in the cozy confines of The Compound, lazing away they day.
The vacated lots are heftily overgrown in grass, weeds, and flowers of sorts, nobody will ever bother to cut them down, except save for some City landscapers who may cut them down just prior to Labor Day. And ya know WHY the City FINALLY comes out to cut them down? Well, I'll tell you why - because eye-sores are one thing, but it's simply not cool to have a dead body rotting next door in a field of overgrowth. And when the 'Po come to investigate, heh, there is likely rats nests in those yards.
Detroit IS dying, there is not much evidence to argue against the fact, except for maybe Campus Martius, I mean the DownTown central, where all is cheery. WTF? MHO is, at least it is a slow... natural death. And I stand at her deathbed, keeping company, and holding her hand till the last breath. |
Eastsidechris
Member
Username: Eastsidechris
Post Number: 287
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 9:18 am: | |
Buyamerican, where do you live? In the city?
I have to ask, because I've lived in the city for four years now, and the only time I've been a victim of crime was two months ago, when someone broke into my garage.
Throwing around terms like "running rampant throughout Detroit" when describing crime is a bit reckless in my book. You make it sound like if you set foot in the city, you will be mugged--or worse. That's hardly the case. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 679
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 9:42 am: | |
Eastsidechris, in my previous post I mentioned that I am a suburbanite who had lived in Detroit for 48 years. I forgot to mention that I was born in Detroit, so it is my hometown.
I am glad to hear that you haven't been a victim of crime until just recently. Where exactly do you live?
Crime IS running rampant throughout Detroit, that's not a "reckless" statement, it's a true statement. I know of many firemen who work in the City and are stationed at different firehouses (the ones remaining open) who will attest to the fact that crime is not only rampant, but flourishing. These firemen never sleep at night because the thug element are setting fires everywhere, and I mean throughout the city.
I am privileged to know many law enforcement officers in Detroit as well and they attest to the facts I've presented.
I lived in Detroit on the east side all of my life and I watched the decline then. When you have 5 people murdered in just one night, and God knows how many people have been taken to a hospital because of other injuries due to crime that die later I think my statement is correct.
Incidentally, I don't take any joy in saying this about Detroit. I loved it and still do. Nothing would give me more pleasure than to see it make a total turnaround.
(Message edited by Buyamerican on July 27, 2008) |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 813
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 11:24 am: | |
I will be the first to agree with everyone on this forum that Detroit is a major mess right now and that there SEEMS to be very little hope in it's recovery any time soon. There are many reasons for that occurring, but to say it is dead or dying is a bit beyond the reality that exists, albeit small, in the many pockets of the city that I see where hope springs eternal.
I also agree that until the political machine in Detroit is COMPLETELY dismantled and re-started with honest, determined people who care more for the city and it's citizens then themselves, it will be business as it has been for a long, long time.
I say this with great certainty:there are many, many suburbanities that are waiting in the wings to come in if they are asked and contribute their time to the cities comeback, too. I talk to them each and every day, and they just want to feel that if they were coming down and contributing, it would go to a good cause(the people who need it most) not to the betterment of a city government that could care less about their contributions and involvement beyond what that government may get out of it, whether financial or personal. These suburbanites want to really make a difference, but they refuse to "cast their pearls amongst swine" so to speak, the governmental entities being the swine.
I could point out the places where the basket has been lifted and the light shines, but one only has to read some of the threads here that already exist to see there are places where we are determined to take back what has been lost, and to dismiss or diminish those bright spots of encouragement amidst all of the other crap going on is an affront to the volunteers that try so hard to do so.
I would submit that when discussing the city, that we focus, therefore, on the good things, not the bad. I am not saying to ignore the facts here in any way, shape or form, just provide some positive information for once rather than the negative. Try to read the positive happenings stuff in ModelD for instance, or the threads here where people are trying to shine their light and go and volunteer to help them rather than bitch about what ISN'T being done.
In other words, do more, talk less and give of yourself incessantly. You may find that that will be the way out of this mess rather than sitting in your armchair paradise that only you create and enjoy for YOURSELF.
Even though he is an ass, I believe that like Baylum's donkey, Kwame made a profound comment regarding this in his last SoftheC speech when he prophetically said.." get up off your porch, go out and sweep the street in front of your house, help your neighbors do the same. Volunteer your time, because no one is coming to save us."
It will take all of us to do that for ourselves.
Waiting for change here is like waiting to bleed out from the beating or gunshot you will certainly die from if you just lay there and do nothing about HELPING to take this city back from the "thieves" that have been allowed to take it away from ALL of us, suburbanite and resident alike.
Just my .02. |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 469
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 12:23 pm: | |
Dang, Plymouthres, that was good! |
Funaho
Member
Username: Funaho
Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 1:18 pm: | |
I agree wholeheartedly that we need to gut the City government, but I'm just not sure we can do it ourselves. I think the City of Detroit is like a person with a mental disorder that's slowly getting worse, and it may be to the point now where it is so self twisted and self-destructive that it not only can't help itself, but it can't even properly ask for outside help. If it were a person it would probably have been force into in a mental institution by now.
I do love this city, and I have no plans to leave at this point. But it's really hard to "keep the faith" when you're working against an entire city that seems determined to destroy itself building by building. And honestly, it's the little things that eat away at me. The garbage i have to pick up out of my lawn every day, because I choose not to have a fence. The crappy patch jobs DWSD does when they dig up the nice freshly repaved streets. The street cleaners who come by and only manage to turn all the dirt along the curb into mud swirls. The underpass down Scotten that was flooded for a week straight last month. It all adds up and then I feel like Detroitrise in his opening post. |
Eastsidechris
Member
Username: Eastsidechris
Post Number: 289
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 3:49 pm: | |
Buyamerican, I live in the East English Village neighborhood(bordered by Whittier/Outer Drive, Harper, Cadieux and Mack). I'm not going to lie and say that crime doesn't happen in my neighborhood, because it does. But the crime around here is mostly the lawnmower thieves, scrappers, car theft variety. I know my area has it lucky compared to most in the city, although in January or February a two burglars were shot (one killed) in a break-in attempt a few blocks down from me.
The crime rate is much, much too high for my comfort level, but I also believe that the odds of the average law-abiding citizen being shot or murdered are pretty slim. That doesn't bring any comfort to the families of innocent victims of violent crimes in the city, but it does need to be said.
I just took exception to your use of the word "rampant" because, at least to me, it conjures up images of thousands of people running through the streets of Detroit each night with a Molotov cocktail in one hand and an AK-47 in the other. That's just not how it is, but so many people outside the city have that image that they don't even want to set foot below 8 Mile.
I do sympathize with your frustration toward your native city, because I can see negative changes in just the four years I've lived here. I can't imagine what it looked like nearly 50 years ago. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3099
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 3:52 pm: | |
"I can't imagine what it looked like nearly 50 years ago."
Ask your 80 year old suburbanite who lives in Warren or Eastpointe. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7952
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 4:05 pm: | |
Granholm could remove Kilpatrick tomorrow and end a big part of this nightmare, yet she does not out of fear of alienating part of her constituency. It is a shame we have a coward in the governors office who refuses to tackle the big issues and slay the sacred cows. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7953
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 4:06 pm: | |
quote:Ask your 80 year old suburbanite who lives in Warren or Eastpointe.
Perfect! And true. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 681
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 4:59 pm: | |
I can tell you what the City looked like and what it was like to live there 50 years ago and I'm no where near 80.
Let me put it this way...I wouldn't trade my childhood memories of growing up in Detroit for anything. |
Detroitmaybe
Member
Username: Detroitmaybe
Post Number: 144
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:05 pm: | |
So, I have read all of these posts and I can't help but wonder..what does the future really hold? A.)Do we stick it out,wear ourselves out working unselfishly to revitalize the City every chance we get, for however long it takes (which it looks like will likely be another 5-10 years)..sacrificing our peace of mind, safety, and livelihoods? B.)Move to the suburbs and forget about the City and focus on our families and their well being..and let the City die a slow death? C.)Do we say goodbye to Michigan all together, because alot of the issues facing Detroits economy is as a result of the unauthoritative leadership of our Governor, and being realistic the situation will likely get worse before it gets better?
What do we do?? I keep pondering this thought over and over in my head! I have been back here for 2 years, and I am already growing frustrated because for as much as I do, there are thousands of others that do nothing to better the situation! Most disheartening is watching the news every day, however sensationalized it may be...When u see that there were 6 violent unrelated murders in one day, and the dramatic, daily saga of a racist psychologically challenged Mayor who has been in office for years and eho is not even being challenged by the Citizens of Detroit, the desperation of or situation becomes a reality!! We need help, and there is no one to save us..not even ourselves!!When and Where does the madness end!! Next election...NO, because there is still an adjustment period for whomever his successor is and they will still have such a mess to clean up that it would take their full first 4 year term to really even make any real progress!! What do u guys think??
I think this City is a true example of "Survival of the Fittest"..In Detroit only the strong survive!! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7957
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:30 pm: | |
I personally see no reason to believe that Detroit will improve, we are not diversifying our economy in any meaningful way, the statistics on education, crime, illiteracy, illegitimate children get worse, not better.
The few young professional people that are moving into the city are not enough to offset the thousands that will vote for assholes like Kwame Kilpatrick, even if he is removed. A city gets the leadership it deserves, any regime that would be up to the task of turning the place around would need to be brutal and make sweeping reforms and not worry about the feelings of the residents, the city employees, the school system, the police force etc.
I don't see anyone like that on the horizon that would have chance of being elected. Kilpatrick will leave or be forced out eventually, the question becomes who takes his place? Once you lose the middle class in a city you are basically doomed. |
Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Member
Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Post Number: 66
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:31 pm: | |
What do we do? Here's what I am doing. It may or may not work for you or anyone else.
(1) Take care of yourself first. If you are living in the city, make sure you are living in an area where you feel secure and you enjoy your life.
(2) Stop watching the news and read it instead. Especially local television news. Whether or not there is a house fire, a car fire, or a shooting on Detroit's northwest, southwest, northeast, southeast sides, or downtown is important to know. But it's important not to sensationalize or personalize. If it's really newsworthy, it'll likely be in the Free Press or News the next day.
(3) Realize that moving to the suburbs does not solve anything. In Mount Clemens of all places, 15+ guys rolled up on a 30-year old and his wife or girlfriend and just started beating him. This was just a few months ago.
(4) Lead by example. For as much as you do, there are thousands who do nothing. So spend time and your precious emotional energy around people who are doing something.
I spend no time with people who play victim to circumstance. All my personal and professional time is spent with people who realize that they can make a difference in their own worlds...and eventually all of our worlds. This gives me an endless pool of energy to deal with obstacles and frustration. And once you have a critical mass of people who are "leading" instead of "needing", they attract attention, energy, and start inspiring the "needers" to convert into the "leaders". This city and region are a model of dysfunctional relationships and cultures. The only way to eliminate the dysfunction is to rise above it, transcend it, and inspire others to do so.
As more and more us do so, you will see a cultural and attitudinal shift on which the revival of Detroit can unquestionably thrive. It might happen torturously slowly, or in one painful rip of the band-aid. But it will inevitably happen. The status quo is simply unsustainable.
Detroitmaybe, I can feel your exasperation, tiredness, and frustration with our City. All of it is understandable. I hope you stay and continue your efforts...
...and if you do, get yourself to a safe part of the City, get around people who are making positive contributions and inspiring others do so, and take care of yourself.
You sound like you have a lot of heart, and I know Detroit needs it. You can make a difference. Go take some time off from the negativity -- even if it means turning off the news or staying off of this forum -- get clear on what you want, and let your instincts tell you what the right actions are to take.
I hope you are well...my two cents -
YPD |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3100
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:35 pm: | |
PG, that last post you made may be the first one we can actually agree on.  |
Ndmom
Member
Username: Ndmom
Post Number: 133
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:40 pm: | |
PG, I mentioned JG in another thread the other day maybe getting off her a** after the altercation. Another poster advised me that she has to follow a process and she is following the process. I am 100% sure that person knows more than I do because I am not involved in gov't. work nor politics as such. It's frustrating because things just are not happening as fast as we want. I think a lot of us thought this would have been over with 3-4 months ago. People keep mentioning "the feds". How many people know if they are really looking at anything beside this city council hoopla? I am hoping they are doing something because that seems to be our only hope except for the recall. Even if we don't meet Aug., WE WILL meet February with the signatures. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1896
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:40 pm: | |
Kwame isn't going anywhere and it seems he is the spokesperson for the mentality around here. Until he and all his layers of bullshit are discovered and discarded... Same Shit Different Day.
I'd love to be optimistic... but so much needs to change. We need someone to yank the band-aid off and stop telling us our city is fine the way it is. It's fucked up and serious change is needed and serious change is still about 10yrs off. |
Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Member
Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Post Number: 67
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:41 pm: | |
PG - Do you think Bing would be a bad Mayor? or do you think that he would not get elected?
YPD |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7959
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:43 pm: | |
quote:Realize that moving to the suburbs does not solve anything.
Actually the thousands of people that moved to the suburbs over the last 20 years accomplished quite a bit, in terms of what was best for themselves and their families. They ended up in a safer area that also provided good schools and a good return on their investment. The municipal services were better and their taxes were generally lower.
Lets not pretend they just got up one day and decided to move out of the city for no reason. If anything the mistake we are making is allowing the situation in Detroit to determine the outcome for the region and the state as a whole. Detroit will take decades to turn around, there is already untold millions of taxpayer dollars from all levels of government going into the black hole there with virtually no return on that investment.
There are other areas around the state that are far more viable and we need to be nurturing them and working harder to get private sector investment into them because there is a decent chance of a long term payoff. Throwing more money into a corrupt, incompetent Detroit government is a waste.
I think Bing would be a better choice than Kilpatrick, a person with a business background and strong management skills would be attractive.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 27, 2008) |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 5:52 pm: | |
"Actually the thousands of people that moved to the suburbs over the last 20 years accomplished quite a bit, in terms of what was best for themselves and their families. They ended up in a safer area that also provided good schools and a good return on their investment. The municipal services were better and their taxes were generally lower."
As Danny stated, eventually whatever happens to Detroit will happen to the suburbs. You must have a strong urban core to survive, not a donut covered in glaze. You can't have suburban cities when you don't have an urban city to anchor it. That's why the 200,000 people who saw that got up and left while they could within the past few years. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 817
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:04 pm: | |
Wow. You folks that are saying these negative things, are you familiar with some of the organizations that I mentioned or the people that are trying to do something to help out? Are you so desperate to prove your pessimsim is the reality that you wouldn't at least try to volunteer and make a difference to turn those numbers around? I would bet that if you devoted half the negative energy you post here to one of the many worthy causes that are making a difference in the city, your attitude would change, and I mean big time.
I don't believe the myth about no one wanting "us" down there or our help. I am talking about white suburbanites and the predominately black citizens. They do, but their fierce pride and distrust of the way they have been treated doesn't exactly lead them to ask for the help they so desperately need, but how would you know that if you are not part of the solution and down there all the time?
Just to give you an example, I'll use Cub's Garden here. All that project took was a couple of posts by me and him on this forum to generate over a dozen people to step up and help him get established. Read the "Reading in the Garden" thread to see how an abandoned, trash filled lot is now a gathering place for people to interact, and it is not all neighborhood people making a difference. My wife and I live in Plymouth, and, if I weren't driving 1000 miles a week back and forth to work, I would certainly volunteer more of my time there as it is making a HUGE difference.
Take it how you wish, but I am a late 40's guy who lived through the riots and all the social upheavel of the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's in this city. My dad worked on Woodward and the Boulevard for 40+ years, and both my grandparents lived and died in the city of Detroit. I also worked for EMS when it was part of the Detroit Fire Department (almost two years), and I feel somewhat qualified to say that Detroit is down, but not out. I certainly don't feel that way when I go to the Park Bar, the River Walk, Fort Wayne, the Hubbard Farms district in Delray, EEV, IV or the BE district. Theaters and museums aren't dead, just go check out the DIA or the Detroit Symphony, the Fox or any of the other venues downtown and you will see what I mean.
The city really has a lot to offer and is not dead, just screwed up administratively. It will get better if and when we stand TOGETHER and vote out all of the status quo cronyism that exists and began to take it back one place at a time.
I am sorry to keep beating the same old drum but maybe some of you so negative will come around and realize that if we just abandon the place we will be responsible for it's demise and no one else.
We can take it back, but how many of you are willing to sacrifice the personal time it will take to do so? If you did, just one time, you would see what a dramatic difference you can make if you just try. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2007
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:13 pm: | |
Quote: "You must have a strong urban core to survive,"
Why? For the last 50 years people have been bailing out of the city proper, moving to the burbs and trying to forget it even exists. How has the City core contributed to the growth of the area in the last 50 years? In actuality, it's the city proper that has given this area a bad reputation and the city core has been a costly liability. And continues to and be so. The metro area will be just fine without a city proper. As it looks like thats the direction it's headed. If one backs away and surveys the whole situation, it was gone several years ago. People puzzled why the governor etc fails to step in over KK's antics, they don't care. As far as they are concerned Detroit is just a memory and it's suburbs will sustain as long as the automotives do.
If the Big3 or 2 was still kickin it like they were 5 years ago, people would still be fighting over houses right now, like they were then. The city core had nothing to do with that. The suburbs dying now is directly related to the loss of automotive related manufacturing. Nothing to do with the city core. |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 223
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:17 pm: | |
quote:As Danny stated, eventually whatever happens to Detroit will happen to the suburbs. You must have a strong urban core to survive, not a donut covered in glaze. You can't have suburban cities when you don't have an urban city to anchor it. That's why the 200,000 people who saw that got up and left while they could within the past few years.
That's actually not true. The current woes of the suburbs are not related to the city's problems but rather to the state's economic woes thanks to jobs that have left for the South or no longer exist in this country entirely. The housing crisis is also separate, just as Detroit has nothing to do with those homes in California and elsewhere across the nation that are in trouble.
Detroit is not the core of this region. Even without other suburban office parks taken into account, Southfield alone has a larger business district than Detroit. According to the Detroit News a few years back, about 75% of the jobs in this region are in the suburbs, and more than that percentage of the Metro Detroit population live outside of Detroit proper and can live perfectly fine without ever having to step foot in the city.
The region should want Detroit to be strong again because it is its historical core, because Detroiters are their fellow neighbors, and yes, because it would only help the region if Detroit were stronger. But those thinking that the region should be concerned about Detroit out of its own need to survive are deluded in outdated and wishful thinking. The real "city" left Detroit a long time ago. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7965
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:19 pm: | |
I tend to agree with both assessments to a point, surely it would be better for everyone if the core was thriving but Stash is correct that there can be growth even without a strong core and it has indeed been happening until recently.
There has been some problems regarding the inner ring suburbs that have been suffering some of the same issues as the city albeit on a smaller scale. Crime has increased, schools have deteriorated, property values have dropped, new investment slowed, Southfield being one example.
If the Big 3 could regain their footing somewhat and even return to the level they were at in the 90's we would at least see the bleeding stop in the region, Detroit would still have problems though. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3102
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:20 pm: | |
No one in the world cares about a little quaint town called Eastpointe or Hazel Park. They will only look at Detroit.
If you're not associated with a huge city, people won't even know you exist. People don't look as Sears being located in a small suburban town, but in Chicago, IL.
Besides, all of these cities need new life to survive. Children today aren't look for the boring suburban life (which a lot of Metro Detroit seems to offer), but rather the rowdy big city life. If Detroit isn't offering wha they want, we will simply not see that new life. If we don't see that new life, then the area will eventually become lifeless (since the remaining populace at one point or another must die off).
(Message edited by DetroitRise on July 27, 2008) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7967
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:25 pm: | |
quote:Children today aren't look for the boring suburban life
The suburbs were doing quite well until the state economy fell into a tailspin. Your blanket assumptions that everyone agrees with your lifestyle preferences are absurd and are unsupported by the evidence. I know plenty of young families and singles that have no intention whatsoever of moving into an urban environment.
There are some young kids that want to live in a city, they will do so and when they have kids themselves many will leave for the same reasons that other generations did.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 27, 2008) |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3103
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 6:59 pm: | |
PG, this may help to explain the issue even further.
http://www.huduser.org/Periodicals/CITYSCPE/VOL1NUM2/ch3.pdf
Before outlining the contents of this article, it is beneficial to identify the five sources of interdependence that allegedly link the economies of central cities and their suburbs. First, the fortunes of suburbs may be tied to those of their central cities to the extent that outsiders’ perceptions of the region are influenced by conditions prevailing within the core. Second, because of their location or history, central cities may contain amenities that are valued throughout the region. Third, individual central cities may provide a “sense of place” that is valued not only by their residents but also by outsiders. Fourth,
the fiscal problems endemic to a declining central city may raise tax burdens in suburban
areas and thereby retard economic development. Finally, central cities may offer unique
agglomeration economies that define an important and specialized role for the central city
in the regional economy.
Ironically, they used Detroit as an example.
(Message edited by DetroitRise on July 27, 2008) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7968
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:04 pm: | |
Nobody questions that a strong core would be a benefit. To say that there can be no growth in the suburbs without however is a misnomer. |
Ggores
Member
Username: Ggores
Post Number: 216
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:18 pm: | |
I love you guys. And gals. I'm humbled, actually.
I come from a large family, and just spent some precious time on a porch, discussing the family.
I get the feeling that, once upon a time, we were all kids, running amok and playing Red Rover, whether you lived in Inkster, Redford, St. Clair Shores, Brightmoor, Red Lawn, Rosedale, or Warrendale. Cheers!
The motto of Detroit should simply be - "Don't be a fool."
It's so transparent. You can see right through it. No matter where you are.
Now I gonna go see my crush. Tough cookie she is! |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3104
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:23 pm: | |
Well the suburbs depends on Water, Electricity & Gas to survive as well.
Majority of this comes from Detroit. If Detroit eventually disappears, they couldn't get these utilities because (considering the social environment), many of the towns will likely refuse to compromise. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7970
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:29 pm: | |
Detroit won't disappear completely and it is the revenue from the suburbs that keeps those utilities viable. We all know that the bad debt incurred by the utilities relative to their Detroit customers is enormous. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3105
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:33 pm: | |
Of course they will ave to come from the *suburb*.
Each suburb will have to foot their own bill. Except for maybe Warren, none of those cities and their tax base will be able to support the maintance of large scale infrastructure like water pipes, power poles, septic tanks, sewer cleaning, etc.
If that was the case, I'm sure they would have their own systems right now. |
Detroitmaybe
Member
Username: Detroitmaybe
Post Number: 145
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:39 pm: | |
YPD,
Thanks for the words of encouragement!
I'm curious how long you've been back in Detroit?? You sound very much like me when I moved back here in 2006, all bright-eyed and bushy tailed, full of spunk and optimism!
I am indeed around most of the most progressive people in the City and spend much of my time volunteering for one of the top Community Development Corporations in town, I also am a member of most of the most proactive organizations and we have spearheaded many, many initiatives around the City. In fact, I am regularly around those that are actively making a difference. The issue is that if I had to count the people that are making significant impacts in the City, I would honestly guesstimate that out of a population of 900,000 I would say maybe 10,000 or so of them are really actively seeking change in their communities. And to be honest this is being generous because based on the consistent individuals that I see, and actually know are doing more than picking up trash...lol, as someone in a previous post mentioned...I would say about 5000. Here in lies my frustration, so many people in Detroit complain about what is going on but, are not doing anything to change the situation!! It is really sad that we have such an undereducated population with no
resolution in sight!!
I am not sure what neighborhood u live in but, maybe take some time and drive around the inner City, outside of Downtown, Corktown, Midtown, EEV, Sherwood, Palmer Park, Rosedale, and all the mid-upper neighborhoods and really look at the other 85% of the City. There is a significant amount of blight and many neighborhoods that are in deplorable conditions. These are neglected areas are the ones most in need of our attention!!
The status quo for the majority in Detroit is complacency!! Yes, we can work to change the prevailing attitude here..but, morale is low...and this is a change that will have to be implemented not just from the bottom up but, also the top down! These are systemic issues we are dealing with and once you get out here and really get to working in the community at large...you will see what I mean!•••
BTW...DAVE BING FOR MAYOR!! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7971
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:43 pm: | |
quote:Each suburb will have to foot their own bill.
They already are. They are paying billions in utility bills and the developers were charged for the infrastructure by the utility companies. I have lived in the northern suburbs for going on 30 years and have never had Detroit water or sewer service. |
Jmm
Member
Username: Jmm
Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:49 pm: | |
I have read these posts for a long time and since I no longer live in the city have not felt the right to comment. I am making an exception now.
It is the responsibility of the citizens of Detroit to remove Mr. Kilpatrick. Governor Granholm is correct when she refused to intervene. Good leaders do not override the will of the people. Whether we like it or not, the absence of a recall effort speaks volumes about either the will of the people or their apathy.
Like the national election the majority of voters receive what they deserve. I don't mean to be callous with this statement but the citizens have elected both Mr. Bush and Mr. Kilpatrick twice! There was ample evidence to remove both of them during the last election. There are those of us that made a great effort to change the outcome of the election by campaigning and casting our vote for their opponents, but we did not win. Those of you that empowered these men now own at least a share of the responsibility for what they have done. It is too late for Mr. Bush but hopefully their is still a chance for the citizenry of Detroit to recognize their error with Mr. Kilpatrick and fix it.
The community I live in has recalled numerous school board members and city council members. It seems hard to believe that the voters of Detroit have not been able to launch a recall vote. If the mayor of my community even hinted at the type of behavior Mr. Kilpatrick has displayed, we would recall him in a heartbeat.
Recall Mr. Kilpatrick. Take back your city. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3106
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:52 pm: | |
http://www.dwsd.org/images/wat er_map.gif
Perhaps you live in one of those areas.
However, in a recent thread & news article, that is about to change as DWDS has plans yo expand their service even further out. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7974
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:57 pm: | |
They expand because they can make money doing it. They would not be able to survive on the revenue from Detroit alone. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 682
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 7:57 pm: | |
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
(...and Detroit, too) |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3107
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 8:01 pm: | |
"They expand because they can make money doing it. They would not be able to survive on the revenue from Detroit alone."
If the pipes only went so far (no pipes beyond Telegraph or 8 Mile), then Detroit alone could support it. |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 224
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 8:13 pm: | |
This is all quite silly. If Detroit "disappeared" (which I assume you mean either falling into receivership or literally becoming a ghost town), then either the state would take it over or it would be forced to sell its assets, just as Kilpatrick has been trying to do with the city's parks and now the tunnel. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7975
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 8:30 pm: | |
quote:If the pipes only went so far (no pipes beyond Telegraph or 8 Mile), then Detroit alone could support it.
Last time I checked suburban revenue for water was getting close to 80% of the total for DWSD. The portion they get from city residents is also among their highest risk due to collection problems. It is hard to imagine it would make sense to not be trying to expand service to more paying customers. |
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