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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2864
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professorscott: Are you saying this?

"Light rail attracts TOD. Buses don't."

Has that been shown to be more or less true? Proven fact?
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1520
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Better, put in "usually" and it's exactly what I mean.

"Proven" is hard, because it's hard to define "proof". "Widely held in the transit biz and supported by the available data"; will that do?

Anecdote: civic leader in Kenosha WI, while their heritage trolley was being built, said it most explicitly to a reporter: "Developers don't write checks for buses".

It's believed the main reason for this is that a light rail line is a semipermanent piece of infrastructure, like a freeway off-ramp (which also frequently attracts development), while bus routes can be moved around or discontinued rather at will (look at SMART's downriver routes today vs. three years ago, or DDOT's Woodrow Wilson or Lafayette-Green routes, or the city of Livonia, just for a few examples).
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Bearinabox
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Post Number: 763
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There is little reason why we cannot start some TOD at major transfer points right now.

Except that nobody is doing it. Case in point: Woodward and Manchester in Highland Park, a busy 24-hour transfer point at the intersection of several major lines. When the area was redeveloped, what was put in? A bunch of ^% strip malls where the storefronts are half a mile from the street. You hop off the bus, start walking, and three days later you get to Glory Foods. How's that for TOD?
Somehow, I don't think the bus lines there are doing much to orient the development toward transit.
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 1797
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Prof: You want the egg for the chicken, but I see we need the chicken for the egg.

We already have people using transit (Chicken) if you make the area nicer, you will get nicer, it will result in more riders (Chickens). The more chickens you have, the more of your likelyhood to get eggs.

Detroit should develop upon its own needs. There is little reason why we cannot have apartments at that corner to help feed transit and improve the number of eyes on the street, as well as the number of services that could be used by both the locals and the transit riders using it as a stop.

What you would propose would be to just leave the area crappy because we can't have light rail. I'm saying increase the density now, make it more attractive for transit, and demand for transit will increase.

There are plenty of neighborhoods in large cities that are not served by rail where there is TOD type of development. Much of Lincoln Park in Chicago is not anywhere near the rail line and the perferred mode along Sheridan is the bus. You can find countless examples of this throughout Toronto as well. You will even find this in places like Lansing, Kalamazoo, or Port Huron. What you won't find there is squalor.

Need some imspiration Dr Rober Cervero from UC Berkley has lots on how to integrate different modes with land use and springboard this for other transit improvements. Prepared to be insipred:
http://www5.mississauga.ca/corpsvcs/communic/html/movingforward/robert_cervero.pdf

We need to think about transit as more than just buses, trains or whatever. All modes need to be integrated into a system that works and is suited for its land use.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on August 05, 2008)
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1521
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me just quote from a paper I have (academic journal stuff), because for some reason people keep expecting me to do that:

"Dittmar and Poticha (2004) have suggested that the raging light rail vs bus debate is to blame for an unhelpful blurring of the issues associated with BTOD. However they go on to suggest a commonly held view within the development industry that ‘rail transit, all other things being equal, attracts more intense development and increases return on investment’."

BTOD by the way is Bus TOD. People are just now starting to study it; light rail TOD has been in the literature since the mid 1980s.
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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 2865
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*coughing fit*
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1522
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'planner, neither you nor I have the money to build these apartments. Developers do, and they are waiting for T before they build TOD.

You can certainly have TOD in areas not near rail lines! I'm just suggesting, based on the available data, that if you want a part of your city to redevelop in a dense manner, there are two good ways to start:

(1) Have the money and do it yourself;
(2) Build effective permanent transit so others might do it.

I can't do #1; I might find a way to help with #2.

Lansing, Kzoo and PH aren't big cities. The dynamics of small places are different. Chicago and Toronto have excellent transit, and just about everybody in those cities is within maybe a 10 minute bus ride from a rapid transit line. They aren't great comparisons, but no big city is; we are absolutely alone in our approach to transit.
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1523
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More quotes from same paper:

"Developers and home buyers alike seem to be attracted to the permanence of rail transit"
Dittmar and Poticha (2004)

"Because the locations of bus routes are not fixed or permanent, this greatly increases the risk of investing in transit-supportive land use development" California Department of Transportation (2002)
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1370
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is exactly why I said a light rail line would be enticing, but not really a bus line with stops easily movable. I have a friend in Livonia who was low income, and has a family. He relied on the bus in Livonia, and eventually moved up in his job... and should have made his way up to middle class. Instead, he ended up with first, a moved bus stop (an extra ten minute walk to his stop for a bus that would come sometime within forty-five minutes), and then got eliminated all together. He was effectively marooned without a way to work, with a family, and a Livonia home at the very beginning of the Meltdown. The house was of course foreclosed on, and he was stuck living to suburbs over and utilize a false address so he didn't have to pull his kids out of their school in the middle of December (conveniently before a very nice Christmas for them, I'm sure).

So I would not put my eggs in that basket myself. Especially sense the goal is to eliminate my car (does anyone else feel like their dragging around a financial ball and chain?). I know of another case of a gentlemen in Detroit who just buys what he calls "disposable cars". That is exactly how it sounds, LOL!

Again, I like the idea of the bus, because it could be done sooner rather than later. If it's to expensive, well then maybe it's not a good idea. I really don't know. On the surface, it seems like it would help to have SOMETHING while more permanent modes are built. Although... that may be horrible idea. It may be best to wait and save the money for the better system. But, I can't help but notice all the people who are hurting, leaving, or worse, in the meantime. Plus, something I haven't seen talked about yet, is how much money that would save. By putting the money in that temp system, would residents and businesses be saving money in gas? Would it tip the scale, and help our economy? Also, would it encourage us all to "hang in there"?

Professor Scott, that makes sense. However, do you think it's safe to assume (if not now, maybe in the near future) that Woodward and the spokes will likely have transit in the foreseeable future? Seems like a risky gamble, but could have a big payoff for those willing to take it on. In particular, if you actually lived in the residence, or had good renters, or a solid business to take care of it.

I've been considering that possibility (but don't think it is the time to buy just yet. I'm betting rates will go even lower on the nicer properties in areas of Detroit).

PS Edit: Warren and Grand River was actually one of the intersections that I found a common problem. Plymouth and Grand River is another bad one. You have to walk a quarter mile or more to transfer to a bus on Plymouth Road. You can see a congregation of people making that track every morning and Afternoon... including school children, Detroit Diesel employees, and a whole slew of people who work over at the McDonalds just past Telegraph. You get to walk past a bunch of vacant buildings, houses, and unmowed lots. That is some good planning right there (sarcasm). The graffiti over the barely visible DDOT sign really adds the final touch to that location.

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 05, 2008)
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1798
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How dare I suggest an integration of land use with buses to improve transit. I'm such a bad planner. I guess you showed me good.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 635
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'm not aware of any case where those things happened in any other order, nor any significant TOD with any mode other than light rail."

I think some of the development along the Metro lines in DC has preceded the actual construction or opening of those lines. But Metro also has a proven track record of success when it comes to development around the various stops.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1525
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'planner, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just saying it isn't likely to happen. I'm on a planning commission myself, and we have a professional planner that works for us, and we plan things. But just because we plan them doesn't make them so; someone with money has to agree that we have a good plan, and develop something based on it. I haven't seen much new bus based TOD anywhere, except in hot cities where everything's developing all over the place, which Detroit isn't.

All that's necessary for us to have a reasonable transit system is to agree to pay for it. There are some political hurdles, but not insurmountable IMO given the state of the regional economy. How to pay? That's the big question.

Metro Denver, which has a much smaller regional population, is putting $2.7B into improved transit. That would go a long way around here. Where's the money come from? They tax themselves for about half, then (typically) Uncle Sugar kicks in half.
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 1799
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me break down my example of Warren at Grand River.

Current Transportation Assessment: This is currently a major transfer point for the West Side. This is where the Grand River Bus meets the Warren Crosstown. This allows quick accessibility to Downtown, Wayne State, the Medical Center, and East Dearborn by transit. A rail line also crosses within a block of that intersection. This rail-line will house the proposed Detroit to Metro Airport to Ann Arbor rail line. This project is quickly working toward being a reality. It would not take much to justify another stop should this line be successful at this location.

Land-use: The area has Murray Wright High School, St. Leo's Parish, a Post Office, and several stores including art galleries. It is close to the Woodbridge Historic District. It also has a great deal of open land at its SW corner that is ready for redevelopment.

There is not so much as a transit shelter at this corner, but you always see folks transferring from one line to another. The nice thing is that you never have to wait long. DDOT has this corner timed pretty well. I can't see how this particular has not been picked up yet. Any development here should help transit ridership immediately, regardless of mode. Even small improvements here like simple landscaping and a shelter could do a lot. Indeed, both Warren and Grand River are prime corridors for major upgrades to transit. The possible link between the two corridors and the Airport Ann Arbor train alone could cause this to become a very relevant intersection.

The most amazing thing is that there are several areas that are just as ripe as this one. As a planner I cannot make these types of decisions. I am charged with recommending and educating the public as well as elected officials about options. This means challenging the status quo. If everyone says light rail, but they don't really know what it is, this concerns me. Heck if everyone wanted to take the 'do nothing' alternative that would concern me as well, though it would certainly make my job easier.

Matching funds: We've still got a long way to go before the voters will accept a multi-billion dollar tax increase. With Detroiter's paying over 70 mills right now, it would be a hard sell. It would be even harder to get regional buy-in. An analysis needs to be done on the impact of operating the current system as is with the addition of any new service, regardless of mode. We don't want to build something we can't afford to operate.

Now for some more dreaming.

Ann Arbor-Detroit Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =gHQNgs35ifs

Woodward Light Rail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =N2wh3rXaMLM&feature=related

People Mover:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =nAk2BBhQm1o&feature=related

Articulated Bus (its Vegas baby!):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8 982627@N05/559131283/

Yes the people mover one is light hearted humor.
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1526
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'planner,

I agree with your choice of intersection for what you're talking about. The Crosstown and the Grand River are both major, high service 24 hour DDOT routes. It's also right near 12th/14th where the fairly frequent service Fenkell line comes by, and not too awfully far from Trumbull and the Linwood line. If you dressed that up a little bit, and made it a nice (and obvious!) place to catch the buses, you might have something started.

If Detroit were in any sense booming, that would be a good corner to redevelop, but nobody is developing anything based on its proximity to transit in Detroit because developers (none of whom ride buses) do not take bus transit seriously. Rail transit, which would represent a community investment in the nine or ten digits, is something that group tends to pay more attention to.

My recurring point about rapid transit is that we have to find a way to get it done, because every other major urban area in the world is getting it done, and this fact makes us jarringly uncompetitive. You can't sell your region to the "new economy" if your infrastructure continues to be straight out of 1956.

Redevelopment wise, I think the most likely quick success to be had is to develop a fixed-infrastructure transit line along Woodward, from the river to wherever you like, provide funding to operate it in addition to the local Woodward bus service (not as a replacement), and see if anything starts to happen. If it does: build more! If it doesn't: we tried!

The analyses have been done repeatedly over the past seventy or eighty years; SEMCOG insulates its offices with the resulting documents. I say take the plunge and build something! We've analyzed this to death already. Everybody else in the world already has built this and we're still deciding whether we can! We are pathetic.
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Izzyindetroit
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Username: Izzyindetroit

Post Number: 22
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have tried to take the Grand River route 3-4 times from Canfield-Trumbull area, each time I have walked to Downtown before the bus ever shows up. <<< That is just a complaint.


>>>> Here is a nice little NPR clip that I came across today. It is about 2 weeks old so I wasn't sure if anyone has listened/posted it yet. I was unaware of how mush history and push there has been to implement a rail transit system.

http://www.npr.org/templates/s tory/story.php?storyId=9273973 2&ft=1&f=1025
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1530
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Izzy, what time of day were you traveling? Any time from about 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. that Grand River seems to run like clockwork. Nighttime, they don't run very many buses on any line.
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Izzyindetroit
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Post Number: 23
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every time was in the evening, to go to a ball game or what not. I always checked the schedule to be sure it would pick me up and it never came. One day I waited at Capital Park to take it out bound. The bus was parked in the dock with no one in it, sat there 25 minutes, then decided to take a cab.
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 1531
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Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Starting at 8:00 p.m., the bus leaves Capitol Park only every 40 minutes. (During the daytime hours it's every 12 minutes.) Capitol Park is the layover, and the bus driver isn't required to let people board until just before he leaves, but most drivers if you ask will tell you what time they're leaving.

On the current schedules the evening outbound Grand River leaves at 8, 8:40, 9:20, 10, 10:40 and 11:20. Starting at midnight they leave once an hour, on the hour.
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Russix
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Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ball games and football games mess up the scheduling for the buses that have to go up or down Woodward. The Grand River 21 experiences lots of overcrowding and over stopping without SMART 305 complimenting the route making its schedule useless as well.
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Professorscott
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Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SMART 305 only runs a couple times a day, and only in one direction (outbound), which always struck me as curious. How are those folks getting to Detroit in the first place?

I agree with your main point, Russix; I've seen it over and over. It also messes up the east and west SMART buses because they have to cross Woodward and go up and down Griswold which gets very congested when there's stuff going on.
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Russix
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Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

305 Grand River use to be a Limited city service route like Woodward, Gratiot, and Michigan. It should not be faster to ride a bicycle down Grand River through the city but unfortunately it is. I can't blame DDOT for this increase in ridership but I can blame L.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1467
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's something else I found recently. I haven't read through it all the way, but it seemed to have some interesting information. The site (link below) is actually about a light rail system in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Detroit was one of the cities they researched for comparison.

Opening excerpt:

"Affordable, workable light rail transit (LRT) in an American city of less than one million population? How about less than 100,000 population?"

Link: http://www.lightrailnow.org/fa cts/fa_ken_2005-01.htm
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KENOSHA, WISCONSIN has rail transit and we don't?
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1342
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://detroitsynergy.org/proj ects/development/ddotwalrprese nt/view?searchterm=None

Not sure what the content of the presentation will be. It may be old news. Regardless, everyone is invited.
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Detroitplanner
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw, have you seen the Kenosha system?? It is a pretty silly system. It is pretty much there just as a tourist draw and uses old cars from other transit authorities. It moves slow and loops around the marina area, then over to the City Hall area. There is not much to it. It is similar to the people mover, you would not use it for commuting.
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Professorscott
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's even more similar to the Washington Blvd. trolley that ran in Detroit from I think 1976 to 2003.

Several cities have what they call "heritage trolleys" as a tourist draw. It's not really part of a functioning transit system, and Detroit needs a functioning transit system IMHO. The decision after World War II to go to an all-bus system and not to implement any rapid transit may have been a historically catastrophic decision for the Detroit region. We may have time to right the ship, but not much time.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 663
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another transit-oriented blog:

http://www.mml.org/blog/
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1977
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kenosha, Wisconsin also has a stop on Chicago's Metra commuter rail, so you can travel 50 miles to downtown Chicago via Metra.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, Detroitplanner. I'm not so worked up then.

I have not been to Kenosha.

----

DPM is basically a heritage trolley except you have to climb stairs to get to it and there are no cute trolleys haha.
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Dtowncitylover
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny you should mention that, thats the Union Pacific North Line, I took that yesterday to Highwoood to meet up with my sis's father-in-law.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1567
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice one, Mack. So DPM is a heritage trolley without the heritage or the trolley.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1817
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keno's streetcar don't even run when the Metra trains pull in and out of town! Only two METRA trains a day leave too early and only three arrive too late.

Streetcar - Winter Hours: (January 5th - March 31th)
Monday through Friday: 10:05 a.m until 2:05 p.m.

- Summer Hours: (April 1st - January 4th)
Monday through Friday: 11:05 a.m. until 7:05 p.m.
- Saturdays and Sundays: 10:05 a.m. until 5:35 p.m.
- Fare: 25¢
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmm haha yeah, that's not commuter rail if it starts up at 10-11 am on weekdays.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1568
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'less them folks are workin' a more laid back schedule than what we're used to in the D.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1470
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shhhhhhhhhh!

What are you guys doing?! Your ruining it!

Mayor Kilpatrick, even little old Kenosha has built a light rail system. Why haven't you delivered on getting one in Detroit? We need public transit.

Grrrr... I just know you guys ruined it... :-)
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5268
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haha.

Better examples: "even Buffalo, Cleveland, Newark, and-- as of next year-- Cincinatti, have their own rail system, why not Detroit?"

I think we all know where Kilpatrick stands on this. The desire is there. The money is pending. Kilpatrick cannot make that appear. Funny thing, though, is that his mother could. And Lansing could too-- hasn't Grand Rapids been tapping them?
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1983
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think they're saying the Kenosha trolley's schedule isn't very well synced up with Metra. Metra's service to Kenosha is just fine. There are 4 trains from Kenosha that arrive in Chicago before 9am (8 departures all day), and 6 that leave Chicago for Kenosha after 5 (9 departures all day).

The vast majority of trains go no further than Waukeegan though. Kenosha is a pretty good distance from Chicago.

However, Amtrak has 7 trains a day in both directions between Milwaukee and Chicago. The 90 mile trip takes exactly 89 minutes, so it is quite popular.

Wisconsin is trying to work out a deal to extend Metra all the way to Milwaukee. Metra wants to do it, but (obviously) doesn't want to pay for it.
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Bussey
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Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 7:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Read this...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08 /14/us/14streetcar.html
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1819
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 7:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THe Hiawatha (Amtrak) stops in Racine, not Kenosha. If they have a stop in Racine they will not put one in Kenosha. The Cities are too close together and small. Racine is home to Johnson Wax and has a much livelier downtown they are not going to exchange this for Keno. The Milwaukee station is 86 miles from Union Station and takes much longer than 89 minutes, its about 84 minutes to the Milwaukee Airport add another 20 to get to the City.

Metra has great trackside facilities in Waukegan, and thats why not all trains go as far as Keno. They don't want to run many deadheaded trains.

Why would Metra want to duplicate service that is already being provided by Amtrak? Why would WI-DOT even agree to this as it means less operating money that could be better utilized? This is not the same as with the Detroit to AA trains which will be scheduled with the current Chicago trains so no duplication is made.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5269
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the link, Bussey.

Will Detroit be beaten by Columbus? I certainly hope not.

And I wonder what the libertarians think about the New York-area rail system. Would the money saved by ceasing all public funding to transit really cover the economic shutdown which would result from a dismantling? Now imagine Detroit. If it continued funding DSR at the same level (allowing for inflation and reasonable expansions), and if the state spent maybe half as much as it did on highway construction, would enough tax revenue and investment activity have stayed in the City from then til now to justify that expenditure stream? That's extremely hypothetical, but think about that, in light of the fact that the Cato "expert" call transit lines a silly waste of money.

But the libertarian more than likely doesn't really think that the benefits of central city development are something more desirable than development anywhere within a large region. Unfortunately that ignores the fact that most regions are made up of small competing municipalities around central cities which have many disadvantages in today's landscape. It also ignores the strong possibility that central city development IS more desirable if a thriving, dynamic central city makes an entire region a more desirable place to live.

Finally, for an "economic expert" or whatever that Cato guy pretended to be, you'd think he'd understand the free-rider problem and the need for public backing of a transit system. I think I said these exact same words much earlier on this thread: assuming individuals will want to find the most efficient form of transportation that suit their needs, we must remember that they can only choose what is available for them. A vehicle is something that an individual may procure on their own (but of course they can't use it without roads, which require a huge public subsidy), and, without transit, the only other way they could get around is by bike or by foot. People may desire more options. A light rail link, in an area with sufficient density, would probably be chosen over a car if that rail system gets them somewhere faster and/or at lower cost. That option cannot be selected if its not there, but unfortunately an individual cannot build a $100 million + system the same way they buy a 10,000 car. The odds of people banding together and forming a partnership to lay the rail and fund the system is nothing, because of the free rider problem and the impossibility of coordination. Sounds like a good time for the government, who's holding a large percentage of those people's tax dollars, to step in and give the people the choice they want. Yes, if there is only one or a small handful of rail corridors built, it will favor certain areas. They'd say that the large amount of spending benefits too few people. I don't see how it's any different in that sense than road expansions, though. A new road up a 28 mile will probably never be used by somewhere who lives near/in Detroit, yet they still are funding part of it.

I just get this sense that the the government has no good reason to exist according to most liberterians, except to provide the services which they can't imagine going without, like building roads. They should start imagining more, and take some more econ classes while their at it.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1984
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

THe Hiawatha (Amtrak) stops in Racine, not Kenosha. If they have a stop in Racine they will not put one in Kenosha. The Cities are too close together and small. Racine is home to Johnson Wax and has a much livelier downtown they are not going to exchange this for Keno. The Milwaukee station is 86 miles from Union Station and takes much longer than 89 minutes, its about 84 minutes to the Milwaukee Airport add another 20 to get to the City.


I never said the Hiawatha stops in Kenosha. It also doesn't stop in Racine either, but 6 miles away in Sturtevant. As far as the times, I don't know what to tell you...it takes 89 minutes according to Amtrak's schedules, except for one departure in each direction which takes either 97 or 102 minutes. Still significantly faster than the drive time.
quote:

Metra has great trackside facilities in Waukegan, and thats why not all trains go as far as Keno. They don't want to run many deadheaded trains


Well yes, but it's also due to ridership. If ridership demanded it, they would have put their yard elsewhere. But the majority of the trains are empty by the time they reach Waukeegan, and sometimes sooner.
quote:

Why would Metra want to duplicate service that is already being provided by Amtrak? Why would WI-DOT even agree to this as it means less operating money that could be better utilized?


Well, among other things, the Metra Union Pacific North line and Amtrak run on different rights of way, a few miles apart from each other, for one. Amtrak's ROW does not pass through any city centers, while the UP-N line passes through all of them. Secondly, Amtrak stops at Milwaukee, Milwaukee airport, Sturtevant WI, Glenview IL, and Chicago. Wisconsin is very interested in obtaining commuter-scheduled service with many more stops to service industrial and commercial jobs in Southern Wisconsin. Will it ever happen? I don't know, but they want to.

(Message edited by focusonthed on August 15, 2008)
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4723
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even though this doesn't belong on a "light rail" thread:

Commuter rail and Amtrak support entirely different markets. The Amtrak Hiawatha service caters more to business travelers. Commuter rail, with its lower fares (due to state and local support), are priced to attract daily commuters. The same holds true on the Northeast Corridor.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 311
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would disagree on Amtrak and commuter rail serving entirely different markets. There are a fair number of people in the Northeast that commute via Amtrak. Amtrak service along the Northeast Corridor, and along the Albany-NYC and Harrisburg-Philly/NYC corridors is frequent and reliable enough for commuting.

If you're a valuable employee, many employers will subsidize your trainfare. At my old job (which was in Manhattan), one employee worked at the Manhattan office and lived in Wilmington, DE! He worked in Manhattan three days a week, and at home the other two.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4724
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^Those are extreme cases. True, there are a lot of people with big-money jobs in Manhattan that permit them to buy a monthly Amtrak pass (at $500+/mo) to commute from Philadelphia. The numbers of those people simply pale in comparison to the ridership of MARC, SEPTA, NJ Transit, Metro North, and MBTA along the same trackage.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1821
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Trains do attract TOD and buses do not because buses can be moved and trains can not be moved. "

How can a train that don't move be considered transit? :-)
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1985
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have an idea. Let's build a light rail system only in Livonia.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1480
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Building along The Jeffries or Plymouth Road in Livonia (connecting to Grand River or the like in Detroit) would provide access to a very large amount of the jobs and housing in Livonia. Housing and jobs are pretty dense in that little stretch. Much of the Northwest corner of Livonia would be very hard to serve, as it is much more of a sprawled out suburban design I think. It would also allow Livonians to easily get downtown extremely faster than they can now. Grand River would be a straight shot to the CBD from Livonia, or and connections that run into it (Plymouth or Warren Roads for example). One question is whether Livonians actually want a public transit line into the CBD, that would be faster and more efficient then driving. I would think (knowing Livonia) that some people would worry about crime from Redford and Detroit. However, it could be argued that it might attract more young families and professionals to help fill in the gaps around their aging population/empty nesters problem. How fast would a line on Grand River from all those places be (Grand River also intersects a portion of Livonia)? From my regular drives to downtown, back when I used to commute, it would take me about five minutes to reach an entrance ramp from Merriman and Plymouth Road. Then it would take about twenty minutes of freeway driving to the CBD, and five more minutes of surface driving and looking for a parking space.

Another thing about I-96 is how wide it actually is. It is divided into four sections of two in each direction. One group of lanes for local traffic, and a group of lanes for express travel to the CBD, with very few exits. I would argue that the express lanes are not needed at anytime other than an occasional rush hour. Public transit could easily use this route if Grand River was not desirable. Even without transit utilizing that freeway, the affects of transit could cause a reduction in traffic on I-96. I think it could be interesting to look into closing lanes at off times (why are we patrolling and maintaining the express lanes at four in the morning... and allowing all the lanes to be ward down and littered on when they really don't need to be?). Other options could really be the addition of designated carpool lanes. Another possibility is something similar to what is done in the Denver area. They have a method to switch lanes over in direction. So, basically, you'd have more lanes going into the city during the morning rush. Then, those lanes are switched over, and used to exit the city for the afternoon rush. This could actually be done on the other major freeways too. Not with travel lanes though. Instead you could designate a single lane (instead of two separate lanes) to be used as a carpool or express bus lane (switching over between the two rush hours as described above).

All of this, with public transit could really make Detroit insanely efficient, while also solving the traffic crowding issues in the suburbs. In my theory (and I am not even close to being an expert... please remember that) I would think this would help slow or even stop sprawl. The idea is that with efficient traffic flow in the suburbs and city (and no or little attention spent on the exurbs or what appears to be future suburbs), you would be eliminating the "great idea" of a reverse commute. It just wouldn't appear to be a good idea anymore (which seems to be more important than what is actually a good idea).

Anyway, getting back to light rail...

I wonder how far your average suburbanite or urbanite would walk, drive, or bike to a transit line in our area. Anyone happen to have (or simply know) that information?

PS: Sorry if this ends up not adding up.. it's just thoughts, and I really have been having a few terrible ideas and posts this past week. I've had a lot of personnel things on my mind... sorry in advance. Also, thanks to everyone for calling out many of those... lol, the mountains in that other post are a great example. For the most part... I've also been choosing to just read/lurk, and not post quite so much.

Writers block?

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 15, 2008)
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 696
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Trainman Cometh!
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Russix
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Username: Russix

Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Po rtals/0/docs/deptoftransportat ion/pdfs/ddot_fiveyearplan08.p df

New DDOT Five Year Plan puts the Woodward Light Rail in service in 2013. Wasn't it 2011 before?
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 728
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spotted by Atrios:

Charlotte's light rail line has only been in operation for nine months but the ridership numbers are already approaching a remarkable milestone.

For the month of July the LYNX light rail line tallied a ridership count of 16-thousand-900. Transit Chief Keith Parker says if they see another 5-percent growth or so in the next couple months they will have reached their ridership projections... for the year 2025.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 5512
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.miller-mccune.com/a rticle/601

Let us hope they dont waste things like in this link.....
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5306
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A five year plan is unacceptable. Five years is an eternity. Five years ago we went into Iraq. In five years (if McCain is elected) we will have rolled back seven years' worth of CO2. If we can destroy and rebuild a country in five years, and institute cap-and-trade CO2 controls (in a republican administration, no less), then surely 8 miles of rail can be laid in less than that time.

The point: where the hell are the state and federal governments in this? I thought CCKilpatrick was supposed to bring home the $$? Where's Granholm?

Five years does not fly.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 514
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It also indicated that in the near future, BRT needs to be pursued for the Gratiot corridor. I am opposed to doing this. I think that LRT would be much better for the corridor.

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