Richie Member Username: Richie
Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 7:13 am: | |
I was going through some of my old Detroit slides the other day and thought someone out there might enjoy this one showing the Ellwood in it's original location. I took this March 30, 1986, The day I first saw or should I say noticed this now well known Art Deco structure. This was before the stadium district was planned and a few years before the bar was restored, scheduled for demolition and than ultimately saved and moved. It sat across from the State Theatre. The large building in the background is the Wolverine hotel, beyond that the Stroh Brewery. To the left you can see the Gem Theater and the tall building behind the Gem and almost out of the picture is the YWCA. I am still not sure why it was important to have this and the buildings next to it removed any more than I have any idea why it was important to destroy all the buildings down the side street (to the right and outside this picture) that would have faced Comerica Park leaving us with a view of the back side of buildings that now face the park when the park needed be moved only a hundred or so feet to north and be exactly as it is now. Years later this logic still eludes me. Sorry the pic is not clear, the original is tack sharp. I had to downsize it quite a bit to fit the 50k max image size required here but you get the idea.
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Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2653 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 7:31 am: | |
I hate to point out the obvious, but does anyone besides me notice how abandoned and ragedy Detroit looked? Almost like a ghost town. Worse yet, the CBD hadn't even reach the bottom of the hill in this picture. Richie, I agree. In fact, we lost nearly half of downtown's building stock to build sport stadiums that could have easily went elsewhere. Frankly, if it was just for parking, all of the re-location and demolition of these buildings were not necessary. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 02, 2008) |
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 8:53 am: | |
Yeah Detrise, we could have kept all the downtown building stock and had the stadiums built in the suburbs so we could go back to the way downtown was back in the 80s. Then no one would come to Detroit for anything. Good idea. (Message edited by lombaowski on July 02, 2008) |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2654 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 9:29 am: | |
Lombaowski, sorry if you misunderstood me. The last place I want the stadiums to be built is out in the boondocks. If Boston was able to keep Fenway Park the way it is today, we could have easily maintained Tiger Stadium and the place wouldn't become a huge parking lot. Then, we would still have all the buildings that were lost for the demolition of the new Stadium. Also, we could have easily fit the Football Stadium along the baron riverfront. Heck, it would have sped up the residential development around there significantly. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 02, 2008) |
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 190 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 9:45 am: | |
Okay, I'm trying to get my bearings on this picture. This is looking east down Elizabeth (from the west side of Woodward), correct? So to the right (on the other, south, side of the street), would stand the United Methodist Church? I ask, because I was just explaining to my kids that the Ellwood sat on the south side of Elizabeth (at the corner of Woodward), essentially right next to the United Methodist church. If I have my bearings right, I told them wrong. I guess I came to that conclusion because there is an asphalt, fenced off area at that corner (south of Elizabeth) where the Ellwood would have fit perfectly. |
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 9:50 am: | |
Gotcha. Well the Lions stadium idea along the riverfront would have definitely been nice but did the influence of Greektown and the business owners play a role in that? As for Tiger Stadium vs Fenway they are a little hard to compare. Fenway didn't have all the obstructed seats and the design is quite a bit different. Realistically the Tigers would have had to mess with the foundation of the stadium and I'm pretty sure they looked into rehabbing Tiger Stadium and realized building a new facility would be more cost effective. Look at Yankee Stadium. They didn’t need to build a new stadium either but the cost of fixing the steep upperdeck seating which is the biggest complaint there would have been monumental. They would have to rip the whole thing apart and then you have to play somewhere else for probably a year. The Yankees could play in Shea, the Tigers wouldn’t have had that option. My suburb comment also had an ulterior motive and that is the chance the Tigers would have been moved out there which was certainly possible. IIRC one of the northern suburbs (Troy?) made a pitch to Ilitch in the 90s to move the Tigers out there and offered all the trimmings. The Tigers have never played in the suburbs except a few games in Burns Park which today would be the Norfolk Southern Yard off Livernois and at that time was outside the city. It wouldn’t feel right if that team ever played in the burbs, I love Comerica, Tiger Stadium was past its’ time, and I have no issue with knocking down some of those buildings to bring in a facility like Comerica. (Message edited by lombaowski on July 02, 2008) |
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:00 am: | |
"Because of the city's strict "blue laws," baseball in Detroit and many other cities was forbidden on Sundays as ministers expected their congregations to spend Sundays in quiet reflection instead of at rambunctious baseball contests. James D. Burns, the owner that purchased the team from Vanderbeck in 1900, sidestepped the issue by hosting Sunday games on his own property in Springwells Township, just outside Detroit's city limits on Dix between Livernois and Waterman. Rowdy crowds packed the stands at Burns Park's makeshift field, with the first official Sunday game at Bennett Field not to come until 1907." |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 2162 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:06 am: | |
I think this is looking straight down Woodward. Wasn't the Ellwood on the SE corner of Woodward and Elizabeth. Further down Elizabeth, just down from the Y would have been the Detroit College of Law. |
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 191 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:11 am: | |
Jcole: I don't think so (unless I'm twisted around). If this was looking south down Woodward, the Wolverine hotel would be standing where the United Methodist Church (1868?) should be. If this picture were looking north, the Wolverine would be standing where the State Theatre should be. |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2656 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:13 am: | |
I'm almost certain that picture is looking NE, because Gotdetroit's and Jcole's perspective would place it over United Methodist Church or the State Theatre. My guess is the street that's blocked off (in between the surface lots) would be where this picture was taken, and the Ellwood was located on the corner of the north lot. Of course, another possibility would be Montcalm & Woodward. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 02, 2008) |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 2165 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:15 am: | |
Where was the Stroh Brewery located, north or south of the current stadiums? |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2657 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:18 am: | |
"Where was the Stroh Brewery located, north or south of the current stadiums?" Actually, it's the brown building in the far distance (looking straight ahead) Stroh's was at the corner of I-375 and Gratiot, where Crain's (Brewery Park) is now. However, I thought Stroh's was demolished in the 80s, but prior to '86? Oh never mind, it was '87. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 02, 2008) |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 2166 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:58 am: | |
I'm pretty sure the Ellwood was on the corner of E. Elizabeth, and the Gem was on Columbia, which is now gone. I know that the YMCA was also on E. Elizabeth on the opposite side from the Ellwood, which would not be visible in the picture. If the building in the distance is the Stroh brewery, we are looking east on Elizabeth toward I 375. The building that is supposed to be the Y could be the YWCA and if that's the back of the Gem, Columbia is just to the north. That tall building was a senior apt complex when my husband went to law school on E. Elizabeth from 71 to 75 |
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1704 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
Elwood was on the NE Corner of Elizabeth, the Gem was off Woodward, on Columbia as Jcole remembers. The Wolverine was behind the Elwood on Elizabeth. I never understood why they moved those buildings either. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 2167 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:14 am: | |
Well, there IS a nice flower garden where the Elwood WAS. (sarcasm)They tore down both Y's and the Detroit College of Law as well as a viable book store. I guess baseball is more important than education |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1512 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:22 am: | |
the elwood was on the NE corner of east elizabeth and woodward (ELizabeth and WOODward; get it?). the wolverine hotel, YMCA and detroit college of law were also on E. elizabeth. the former was on the north side between woodward and witherell, the latter two were on the south side east of witherell. the gem theatre was located on E. columbia, between woodward and witherell. (columbia now being the street that is blocked off next to the fox and used only as parking access in front of comerica park.) the YWCA was located on the NE corner of montcalm and witherell. the only buildings that stood within the footprint of present day comerica park were: the YWCA, the YMCA, and the detroit college of law. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5066 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:35 am: | |
So these are located where we now have parking lots lining Woodward? They got moved for surface parking? If so, that is horrendous, and a detail about the Stadia district planning that I never knew about. Those plots won't be surface lots forever, but I'm not looking forward to seeing what type of Illitch-approved development goes in there. |
Richie Member Username: Richie
Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:45 am: | |
Rsa, Correct on the location. The view is looking east. Stroh's was across I-375 in the distance. I think the Wolverine was imploded before the stadium district was planned but am not sure. (There was a show on the planning and implosion of the Wolverine. I heard about it but never saw it.) There were in fact a number of buildings in this area. The YWCA was the only good one to be demolished. The demolition of the YMCA and Detroit college of Law on the other hand was a senseless waste, none were abandoned and both were in great condition and none were in the way of the foot print of the stadium had they shaved off a row or two from the parking structure built to the north and moved the footprint a little to the north but hey, this is Detroit and to the council historic buildings do not need to exist. Otherwise this was in fact a great place for the stadiums as most of the area was vacant land. Like the casinos putting them on the river would have been a waste of waterfront. One needs only look the the eyesore known as Joe Louis and of Cobo to see just how they not only make the Detroit skyline look bad but also made this a dead zone for pedestrians. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5067 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 3:17 pm: | |
The open-ended design of the stadium would have benefitted from close-by buildings, anyway. The skyline would still be visible, but behind smaller buildings which would have made the park more intimate. See Baltimore and San Diego's stadiums for examples. And now we wait for someone courageous with money to develop the parcels to the south and west of the stadium. It could be a new Wrigleyville. But it probably won't. |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 4151 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:28 pm: | |
The buildings mentioned that were needlessly knocked down or moved (they were replaced only by surface parking and landscaping) were removed solely so that there would be uninterrupted sight lines from Woodward to Comerica Park. In fact, Comerica Park's address is listed on Woodward, when in fact the structure faces Witherell, one block to the east. Ilitch wins again. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7091 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 2:12 am: | |
True Fury13... Folks remember there was a county stadium authority whose responsibility it was to obtain (Eminent Domain) the supposedly "needed" parcels of land for the Stadia district. They bought the land and demoed all buildings on the site. The Chuck Forbes owned Wolverine Hotel, YMCA and YWCA were all demoed AFTER they were obtained by the county authority. Had Chuck Forbes not gotten a great buyout, and enough money to move the Gem/Century and Elwood, they would likely have met the fate of the Wolverine Hotel... demoed for parking. By the same token the county authority was trying to obtain the Women's Exchange (Chelio's Chili). But the owners sued, and the courts (who were told that the reason for obtaining the Women's Exchange was to replace it with a "decorative sidewalk") sided with the building owner and the Women's Exchange was spared. It's good that Chuck Forbes moved both the Gem/Century and Elwood, but sadly the Wolverine Hotel (too big to move) was needlessly demoed for a few additional parking spaces. Although both YMCA and YWCA (within the Comerica Park footprint) are gone, many architectural features were saved by Chuck Forbes and later incorporated into the Gem/Century. One final note... the county stadium authority dared not mess with either Central Methodist Church or St. John's (150 year old churches anchoring either end of Woodward at the Stadia site)... after the big stink and furor over trying to obtain that small church at Grand River Ave. near 2nd, when only the Tigers were planning a stadium in the west Foxtown area. |
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 192 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 10:13 am: | |
I have repopulated the parking lots along Woodward in front of Comerica. There are lots of bars. And a wig shop. http://www.gotdetroit.com/img/ stadium/new2.jpg |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5068 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 11:23 am: | |
That would be phenomenal, Gotdetroit. Wig shops > surface parking. In all reality, those plots are bound to be parking decks that fill the entire block, with generic ground floor retail. The upside to this? It would reduce surface parking demand and lower the value of some of those lots south of the stadium, perhaps bringing on key infill. Thanks for the info, Gistok. The lawsuit to save the Women's Exchange from becoming a decorative sidewalk was key. I wish there were a few more activist landowners. It really makes you scratch your heads-- why was there such a desire to level the blocks around stadium? Wasn't there an understanding that a stadium in an urban center could not be like, say, the Silverdome, and be surrounded by parking? Was having perfectly unobstructed views all along Woodward that important? The Illitches have some really weird ideas about what a City should look like. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 2188 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 11:39 am: | |
It's not just the Ilitch's. The city of Denver did the same type thing. They went in and razed most of the old area that was saloons and houses of ill repute back in the late 19th and early 20th century, their reasoning being is that if they got rid of the old area where people sold drugs and panhandled, they would get rid of the people. Well, the panhandlers, druggies and hookers just moved to the city parks, and better neighborhoods, and the city lost a whole lot of its history. Same thing happened here when they tore down Western Market, Black Bottom, etc and then put in Freeways. |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1515 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 11:39 am: | |
the ilitch's proposed that area was going to become a "tiger town" complete with shops, underground parking and a grand processional to the main entry of comerica park. they had site renderings done and everything. this is why the stadium authority exercised eminent domain to force chuck forbes to sell those buildings. of course, in the end, the ilitch's said they ran out of money building the stadium and couldn't finance the project and were conveniently left with control of prime adjacent surface parking. |
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox
Post Number: 1152 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 12:52 pm: | |
quote:Mackinaw So these are located where we now have parking lots lining Woodward? They got moved for surface parking? If so, that is horrendous, and a detail about the Stadia district planning that I never knew about. There is a lot about Detroit that you have no clue about. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5071 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 2:31 pm: | |
Rsa, that makes sense. I faintly remember some really grandiose drawings and quotes in the papers. I guess the conclusion we can now make is that several buildings were demolished to make way for components of the development that were only possibilities. I was not even a teenager when these buildings were being demo-ed, so that's why I had a hard time getting a bearing at first glance at the photo. Toolbox, could not the same be said for all of us? It's a big city. Thanks for enhancing this thread. (Message edited by mackinaw on July 03, 2008) |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7093 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 2:33 pm: | |
quote:Toolbox There is a lot about Detroit that you have no clue about. DUH!! Talk about stating the obvious... why do you think folks read this forum? (Message edited by Gistok on July 03, 2008) |
Downtownguy Member Username: Downtownguy
Post Number: 143 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 3:03 pm: | |
Rsa, the Ilitch's promised the same thing when they acquired the Fox. The area between the Fox and State Theatres (now Fillmore) was to be "Little Italy." Twenty years and counting... We may be thankful that they don't follow through. I remember they said they had talked to Bennigan's and other chains about locating in TigerTown. Why not just call it Suburbantown? |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7095 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 8:29 pm: | |
Downtownguy, I remember the exact proposal... It was to be called an Agora (which is Greek/Macedonian, and not Italian, for marketplace). It was going to be on Columbia St., and have stores/restaurants along the street. And at the SW corner of Woodward/Columbia there was going to be a Hard Rock Cafe, with a huge guitar on top... and the guitar was supposed to light up every time the Tigers hit a homerun at Comerica Park. But nothing has ever come of it, except Peter Karmanos got the Hard Rock Cafe for his building at Campus Martius. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5073 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 8:55 pm: | |
Gistok, was Columbia St. then closed soon thereafter? Nothing like the landscaped berm with two spruce trees facing Woodward between the two theatres. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7099 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 4:30 pm: | |
Mackinaw, I can't remember the exact date of the Columbia closing. It could have coincided with the reopening of the Fox in November 1988. There were also a few 2 story retail establishments between the Francis Palms Building (State Theatre) and Columbia that were torn down around that time. Now we have that "decorative" berm ( ) and the curved driveway on the site of those former retailers. (Message edited by Gistok on July 04, 2008) |
401don Member Username: 401don
Post Number: 621 Registered: 11-2007
| Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 9:56 pm: | |
I agree Ilitch could have done better especially in encouraging, and not discouraging, other retailers around the ballpark. I talked to the owner of Detroit Athletic Co. and he said he wanted to move near the park but Ilitch was totally unreasonable about anything nearby. On the other hand, a cheap independent souvenir shop opened next to Cheli's. Ilitch did pay a far larger percentage of the park than most new ballparks built recently. Also, most new parks are not as urban as Comerica. Toronto-ugly concrete bunker. Baltimore-Camden Yards is almost surrounded by parking. Milwaukee-big dome in a sea of parking off the hwy. Cleveland is not bad and Pittsburgh is well done, although across the river from their actual downtown. |
Rid0617 Member Username: Rid0617
Post Number: 209 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 2:08 am: | |
It looks like one of our old Krystal restaurants. (Krystals and White Castles are the same) |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7102 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 2:53 am: | |
Does anyone know who the architect of the Elwood is? In one Detroit building reference guide, it says that the architect is unknown! |
Dannyoshow Member Username: Dannyoshow
Post Number: 11 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 3:19 pm: | |
Built in 1936 by Detroit architect Charles Noble. |