 
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 452
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 12:53 pm: |    |
quote:Ha - it'd make a good ski lodge, too. You could sell hot chocolate in the penthouse. All you need is a hill and a few lifts...
RIP GB. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7029
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 4:33 pm: | |
I know that both 3rdworldcity and now Gamblin_man have said that the Book has no value.
Well that may be, but I'm sure that it has way more value than either the Book-Cadillac or Fort-Shelby Hotels had before their restoration began.
It just needs to be another "cause celebre" of urban welfare like the 2 hotels, where historic tax credits, renaissance zone, and other incentives need to be made to "sweeten the pot" to make someone want to come in to give it a try.
But the building has not yet undergone any scrapper work, so the amount of work needed to bring it up to standard is light years ahead of the 2 hotel projects.
I'm not saying it's GONNA happen, I'm just saying that because it's not been vandalized, that it has a better chance at being fixed up, and if so, likely at the expense of the public trough... and especially since its' nearby neighbor... the Book-Cadillac has been undergoing a MAJOR renovation.
Also, I really don't think that with the B-C and potential Quicken Statler development, that the Book Tower will be shuttered for 20 years. With those other 2 developments anchoring either end of the boulevard, I would think that it would provide a catalyst for redeveloping the Book Tower.
(Message edited by Gistok on June 18, 2008) |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 457
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 5:02 pm: | |
quote:I'm just saying that because it's not been vandalized, that it has a better chance at being fixed up
Its been like 2 days.
Better chance than what of being fixed up? The David Whitney Building that sat protected and untouched for about 20 years? That's worked out really well so far. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 269
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 5:11 pm: | |
The MCS is in the middle of nothing, and is owned by someone who doesn't want to do anything with it, and doesn't want to sell it. The Book Tower is owned by people who want to sell it. It has a much better chance of being fixed up.
However, it probably isn't going to happen soon. There are lots of buildings. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7031
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 5:17 pm: | |
OK I'll bite, which building do you think stands a better chance at being fixed up if Quicken builds next door... the David Whitney Building (which has only been closed about 7 years), or the United Artists Building (which has been abandoned for over 30 years)? |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 579
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 5:29 pm: | |
I think it's a huge stretch to equate redeveloping historic hotels with tax credits vs. the Book building with its small floorplates, elevator/fire escape problems, etc.
Unfortunately, I think it will be the last tall building (15 stories plus) redeveloped in the city, which puts it on a very long wait list. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7032
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 5:39 pm: | |
Well how would this differ from the Broderick? |
Mdoyle
Member
Username: Mdoyle
Post Number: 450
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 6:00 pm: | |
It won't differ from the Broderick by much, in fact with Higgins time line I give the Book a better chance. Anyone other than Higgins would have done something with the Broderick by now. He's a thinly disguised slumlord waiting for a BIG buyout. Broderick is not secured, there are many windows open or broken out throughout the building letting the elements in. There is a large demand for affordable apartments in the CBD by all sorts of people. Either of these buildings could be successful but you need someone not looking o make a quick buck. Either start as all rentals and as demand rises convert to higher end condos or split the building so the upper levels are nicer larger condos and the lower levels are more affordable apartments.
(Message edited by mdoyle on June 18, 2008) |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 577
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 6:56 pm: | |
United Artists Building is a goner. The Whitney is under feasibility study now.
Mdoyle, I beg to differ about your comment that "Anyone other than Higgins would have done something with the Broderick by now." There are plenty of buildings in the same state as the Broderick and nothing has happened to them. Of course you want to profit from your investment. There are other forces preventing the Broderick from coming back at this time. Good intentions are there, the means are at not. Also, the Broderick project is still alive, ownership of the Book is a mess right now. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7033
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 6:59 pm: | |
Having seen the floor plates of the Book Tower portion of the building, I was struck by the fact that the door to the single set of stairs inside was right next to the door (or window) leading to the outside fire escape set of stairs.
I assume that the Broderick Tower, as small as its' footprint is... that it still has 2 sets of inside emergency stairways.
I can see the emergency exits in the Book Tower as being problematic for modern fire codes, but things such as elevators... practically all old buildings will need upgrades/replacements to elevators. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6042
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 7:24 pm: | |
I could see the Book Complex being redeveloped in phases with it being much easier to redevelop the great floors plates of the Book Building, with the tower to come later. Keep the Building offices, exhibition space, retail, etc...and turn the tower residential when the market demands it. |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 582
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 7:26 pm: | |
Gistok, I thought I remembered someone saying Broderick does have 2 sets of stairways, a necessity for apts and that's what I was referring to with the Book problem. Also, I think the location of the Broderick is a big plus. Does the Stott have two stairwells? |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1426
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 7:29 pm: | |
Looks like the former owner of the Book (lambrecht) is looking pretty smart right now.
Maybe Higgins can just keep placing 600K advertising on the building to pay bills until Quicken rolls into town. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6043
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 7:50 pm: | |
I'm not sure how smart she looks. Doesn't she still own a significant share of the building? Who exactly is the majority owner now, Northeast Commercial Services Corporation (Pagan) or the loan company, KSI Capital Corporation?
(Message edited by lmichigan on June 18, 2008) |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 488
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 9:53 pm: | |
Gistok, one of the elevators in Book Tower would be converted to a stairwell. It's on the opposite side of the building and would meet fire codes. Since the tower would be residential, there wouldn't be the high volume of vertical circulation associated with highrise offices.
The Carbide and Carbon building came into my mind in downtown Chicago. It's now the hard rock hotel, but it shares similar characteristics to the Book with its small floor plates, offset elevators, and the same number of floors. Stairwells are only 10 feet away from each other. It looks ridiculous, but legal. I'm positive the second stairwell was added where an elevator used to be. |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 289
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 5:32 pm: | |
The first thing that needs to be fixed is the fact that it doesn't directly connect to the people mover. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6047
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 7:08 pm: | |
Connecting to the PM should be the very last thing on their minds. That's a luxury. You know, the David Whitney is also directly connected to the PM... |
Hockey_player
Member
Username: Hockey_player
Post Number: 425
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 7:15 pm: | |
Quote: "There are other forces preventing the Broderick from coming back at this time. Good intentions are there, the means are at not."
At this time? It's been abandoned for 25 years. There hasn't been any opportunity for profit in a quarter century? Nothing through several ups and downs in not only the real estate market but the overall economy as well?
Somehow the Book Cadillac, Kales, Merchants Row and others have managed to do so quite successfully in that same time frame.
The only difference with the Broderick, the only "other forces" keeping it empty, is its owner. |
Irvine_laird
Member
Username: Irvine_laird
Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 9:32 am: | |
A couple of weeks ago, I had a conversation with one of the Books. He told me that his grandfather installed some "beautiful bronze lamps" along Michigan Avenue or Washington Boulevard, but that the city took them down in the 1970s. The family is still unhappy about those lamps and he wondered what every happened to them. Does anyone know? |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 583
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 9:41 am: | |
Hockey_player, you have no idea. You shouldn't speak on subjects that you know nothing about. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 819
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 10:12 am: | |
Lefty2,
I am drafting up a business plan for something like that. I already have a ton of props and such.
E-mail me if you want in! I am going to need some help on that one... |
Hockey_player
Member
Username: Hockey_player
Post Number: 426
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 4:15 pm: | |
Rjlj, the facts speak for themselves. Higgins owns buildings like the Farwell and the Broderick that have sat abandoned for a quarter-century. There have been numerous opportunities to either sell or redevelop them, but because he is little more than a greedy speculator, they have sat and continue to be blighted eyesores that stand in the way of Detroit's resurgence.
For those who missed it the first time I posted this a year ago in response to another absurd Higgins defense by Rjlj, here is a Detroit Free Press article about Higgins' numerous real estate failures ... all the way back in 1983. He's had 25 years to turn his properties around, and as anyone who sees the city skyline can verify, nothing in Higgins' world of real estate has changed since then. Higgins was, and continues to be, a slumlord of the worst sort, waiting for a jackpot payoff that will never arrive while keeping valuable parts of the city mired in squalor for his own unlikely gain.
Here is the article:
BAD TIMES
BOY WONDER OF DETROIT REAL ESTATE IS AGING FAST AS COMPLAINTS ABOUND
HELEN FOGEL and DOROTHY WEDDELL,
Free Press Staff Writers
Detroit's redheaded boy wonder, Michael Higgins, flashed onto the downtown real-estate scene a dozen years ago, sparking cheerful citywide gossip about his business savvy and his tender 21 years and hopeful speculation that he was the vanguard of a new economic boom.
His professed specialty -- buying up proud, prime old Detroit buildings and renovating them for living space for young artists, musicians and professionals -- looked then like the wave of future chic and a lively route to downtown rebirth. An optimistic city cheered Higgins on -- predicting -- half in pride, half in envy -- that he would be a millionaire by the time he was 30.
Now in the cold, gray light of a winter of depression, Higgins' ingenuous charm, boyish enthusiasm and good intentions have worn thin on many of his tenants, his creditors and even some city officials.
It's time, they say, for the boy wonder to grow up, take care of maintenance and security for his tenants and see to it that his taxes and other bills get paid.
Higgins, they claim, is underfinanced, overextended and stretched thin. Some even predict his tottering empire is about to fold -- a contention Higgins denies.
Now 34 , no longer such a boy and maybe not quite as wondrous either, Higgins holds fast to his dream of a Higgins-style urban renewal alive with stylish action -- people living, working, shopping and playing downtown.
THE PUBLIC RECORD shows that Higgins has some serious problems:
* Title to the Woodward Tower, at 10 Witherell, passed to the state of Michigan in May 1981 for non-payment of taxes, but Higgins hopes to reclaim it. Some tenants complain that heat, water, security and other basic services are uncertain at best. (On Saturday tenants went to their offices in the Woodward Tower and found water pouring down through the building, apparently from pipes that had broken and/or frozen from the lack of heat in the building.)
* The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development has threatened to foreclose on the Detroiter Residence, an apartment building for the elderly and nursing home at 2560 Woodward, which Higgins leases from an associate. Detroit Edison has threatened to turn off the heat for non-payment of bills.
* Because of alleged irregularities with patient money, state nursing home authorities have threatened to pull Higgins' license to operate the Detroiter.
* The once gracious Colony Apartments in the 9000 block of E. Jefferson, empty since October, are a windowless hulk, awaiting renovation by yet another entrepreneur. Higgins has been accused of neglecting the apartments.
* The Farwell Building, 1249 Griswold, the jewel of downtown Detroit's historic redevelopment, is also empty. Its future is uncertain. Higgins is hoping for HUD approval for subsidized housing for the elderly. But in the meantime it remains an unused property.
* Tenants at a former Higgins property at 14515 E. Vernor organized to save their electricity and other utilities after the building passed to the state for non-payment of taxes.
* Higgins has sold five or six of his other properties and says he manages or has an ownership interest in only 20 buildings.
AND THERE are Higgins' critics : some present and former tenants; businesses that have sued to collect debts; historic preservationists who contend that he has neglected landmark properties; government officials such as City Councilman David Eberhard, and several organizations representing tenants in Higgins' apartments and his residence for the elderly.
They're saying that he is close to financial collapse and that many of his problems are of his making -- the product of the very speed with which he and colleagues acquired property.
Kevin Fobbs, a spokesman for the United Tenants' Organization, called in last year to help elderly tenants in the disintegrating Colony apartments and those who had lost their heat at the Vernor location, described Higgins as "the worst landlord in the city -- without exception."
BUT WHAT Higgins feels is the unkindest cut of all is that some of his former fans -- the same Detroiters who touted and applauded his decade of growth -- now suggest that he may have been a detriment to urban redevelopment.
Citing properties such as the vacant Colony Apartments, such critics as Eberhard argue that Higgins took on the renovation of buildings without enough financing, resulting in further urban decay. One city preservation official, who asked not to be named, said this kind of management has set back the cause of historic preservation in the city.
As a Higgins acquaintance observed last week, "It does appear that Michael has fallen on perilous times."
His glamor and prominence -- the media stardom that he contends he never solicited -- are now part of his problem. "It would be just great to be anonymous," he said in an interview Thursday. "I really covet that. I ask you, how many people know who owns Alden Park Manor (an east side apartment complex)? How many know who owns the Buhl Building? How many people you know care? Everyone knows which buildings I own."
A MERRY CLIP
Higgins, who grew up comfortably in Grosse Pointe and attended Eastern Michigan University for three years, started his climb to real-estate magnate in 1970 with the purchase of a 13-unit apartment building on Chalmers financed by stock left him in his father's will. He sold it last year. During the next 10 years, the youthful entrepreneur, with a variety of limited partners, bought substantial old apartment buildings at a merry clip.
Putting little money down and signing land contracts, Higgins typically held renovation costs to the minimum and charged moderate rents. For administering the properties, Higgins Management Corp. took seven percent of rents.
Headlines heralded each new purchase -- from the Parkhurst, the Parkstone and the Kean apartment buildings to downtown buildings such as the Leland, at Bagley and Cass, and the Park City Club, the old Women's City Club at 2110 Park.
As his empire grew, so did the spiral of angry tenant complaints charging that Higgins failed to maintain buildings, permitted lax security and failed to live up to his promises to make repairs or provide service to tenants. And then came the lawsuits -- by tenants and by an elevator-repair firm, a plumbing contractor, a washing-machine repair company and others who claim their bills had not been paid.
AS HIGGINS talked Thursday about his problems, his broad, open countenance clouded with hurt. "Everybody you know hates the landlord," he said, and for Higgins , that is a problem he has not quite learned to live with.
Higgins is an open, candid man who wants to be liked and who apparently sometimes overextends himself in his effort to win people over.
Susan Rourke of Citizens for Better Care, a Woodward Tower tenant without heat all winter, described Higgins as likeable and well-intentioned, even as she produced a handful of written complaints about maintenance and safety in the building.
Others agree that, in the pursuit of approval, he sometimes makes promises he can't keep and undertakes jobs he simply can't pay for or finish.
Gerald Radke, buyer of the Colony apartments, described Higgins as being "stretched thin" and unable to get work done. He complained that a security guard hired to watch the buildings, vacant since October , hadn't prevented the theft of heavy security doors and plumbing and the shattering of windows. "I told him he should sue the security company," Radke said.
PUTTING HOUSE IN ORDER
Some of the problems Higgins faces now are very serious indeed, but Thursday -- leaning forward across the neat desk in his east side office, framed by Police Athletic League plaques recognizing his generous donations - - Higgins contended that he is getting caught up on his bills and getting his remaining houses in order.
By far, his most serious problems now are at the Woodward Tower and the Detroiter Residence
At Woodward Tower, the old David Broderick Tower overlooking Grand Circus Park, Higgins has been converting the heat from steam to gas space heaters. In the lengthy process, some tenants have been without heat during sub-freezing weather.
County tax records show that, because of a default on taxes, title to the building passed from Higgins to the state in May 1981. Under the law requiring the state to take title to any building confiscated for non-payment of local property taxes, Higgins still has several months left to reclaim the building. He said last week that he has made arrangements to get the taxes paid.
Although many tenants -- including such solid non-profit organizations as the Michigan Housing Coalition, Citizens for Better Care and the American Civil Liberties Union -- have moved from the building or are making plans to move, Higgins contends that the Woodward Tower will someday be a choice office location.
SOME TENANTS agree. Jon Strand, an artist with a studio in a sunlit three-room space on the 33d floor, said, "Without sounding Pollyannaish, I have to say I think he's been a positive force in downtown. I know the guy is full of good intentions. I love my space here -- I guess I'm what you'd call a bohemian."
Strand and others cite Higgins' willingness to stay and promote downtown when other, hardier businesses have left. Dale Otto, owner of Crispy Corn, a candy company in the building for 30 years, says that recent negative newspaper reports about Higgins and particularly about Woodward Towers have been bad for business downtown and that Woodward Tower has improved since Higgins bought it. "This building has been going downhill for years," he said. "Michael doesn't have a ton of money to put into it, but he's doing a better job than the previous owners."
Lease arrangement
Higgins' biggest headache, the venerable Detroiter Residence for the elderly and nursing home, technically belongs to William Turnbull, a Higgins associate. But Higgins acknowledged that his friend bought the property because Higgins would lease and operate the home.
In August, a state licensing official charged that $168,000 belonging to elderly residents and patients had been mixed into nursing home money -- to meet the payroll -- and that as much as $150,000 appeared to be missing. Under state regulation, nursing homes must keep such patient money in separate, bonded accounts to prevent the money from being used for nursing home business.
The state served notice that it intended to deny Higgins a license to operate the Detroiter as a residence for the elderly. That case is still pending.
In addition, earlier inspectors found building, dietary and sanitary violations that had to be eliminated before the home was licensed.
SINCE THEN, Higgins said, he has hired a new administrator and spent almost $100,000 to bring the building up to state code. He also said the problem with patients' money will be resolved soon.
Although the charge is a serious one that could result in the loss of the nursing home license, a spokesman for Citizens for Better Care, the patient-advocate organization, described Higgins' patient-account problems as relatively common in shoestring nursing home operations and said Higgins' hiring of a competent new staff shows that he intends to solve the Detroiter Residence's problems.
HIGGINS CONTENDS that the unfairest charges were those aired by Eberhard after a recent City Council session -- that he has neglected the dignified old Colony Apartments on E. Jefferson until they have become a doorless , windowless hulk, an eyesore and danger to neighbors.
Over several years, Higgins said, he has been negotiating sales of the three-building cluster to first one then another developer for subsidized housing for the elderly.
Because he was selling the building, and because his tenants would have to leave, he stopped making repairs, Higgins said. But his first buyer was unable to finance the purchase , and government red tape stalled the second deal, he said.
Radke, who has since purchased the Colony for developers Jay- Ryan Inc., confirmed that the project has now been approved. He said his company , which specializes in renovating old apartments for subsidized housing, expects the $3.4 million renovation to be completed within the next 14 months.
SOME SUCCESSES
Not all Higgins' properties are depressed.
The Leland is beginning to look like a success, and the Park City Club continues to be a lively night spot. Within the next two weeks, Higgins' newest project, the City Club Cafe, a lunch and after-theater spot, will open at 2110 Park.
It was an uncharacteristically morose Higgins who conceded Thursday that he feels a little sorry for himself. He has struggled, he said, to keep rents moderate so that people could afford to live happily, if modestly, in his substantial old buildings.
"I sometimes think they expect too much," he complained, wincing at the suggestion that some people might view him as an upscale slumlord. "I don't take anything out of these buildings for myself," he said bitterly. "I live in downtown Detroit myself because I love downtown."
Most apartment dwellers, he argued, don't realize how much it costs to heat and light their homes. "Sometimes, I feel like I am the victim and my tenants are the oppressors. Some days," Higgins said sadly, "it would be nice to just be invisible."
THE HIGGINS EMPIRE -- PAST AND PRESENT
Properties owned or managed by Michael Higgins and their current status:
Apartments and restaurant, 8650 Agnes and 9235 Agnes, sold.
The Leland , 400 Bagley, owned and managed by Higgins and partners.
Apartments, 1135 Chalmers, sold.
Apartments, 1330 Crane, owned and managed.
Apartments, 9360 Genessee, sold.
Apartments, 340 and 885 E. Grand Blvd., sold.
The Farwell Building, 1249 Griswold, owned but empty.
Apartments, 1152 Holcomb, managed only.
The Hibbard, 8905 E. Jefferson, owned and managed.
The Kean, 8925 E. Jefferson, owned and managed.
Office Building, 9149 E. Jefferson, owned and managed.
The Colony Apartments, 9303-9373 E. Jefferson, sold.
The Chateau Frontenac, 10410 E. Jefferson, sold
Jefferson Manor, 10525 E. Jefferson, managed.
The Park Avenue City Club, 2110 Park, owned and managed.
The Parkhurst, 1130 Parker, and the Parkstone, 1415 Parker, owned and managed.
Van Dyke Manor, 1000 Van Dyke, owned by Higgins and partners, managed by others.
Apartments, 14515 E. Vernor, in state control pending tax sale.
The Woodward Tower, 10 Witherell, title passed to state for unpaid taxes.
The Madison Theater Building, 22 Witherell, leased by Higgins and partners by Higgins. HUD threatening foreclosure.
****
Illustration:Photo Color CRAIG PORTER
Copyright (c) 1983 Detroit Free Press |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 584
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 4:47 pm: | |
Hockey_player, don't you live in some hick town near Saginaw?
I can't defend an article from 1983 and don't particularly agree with what has happened to the Broderick but at this time you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Not to mention, you keep referencing an article from 1983. I would love to hear about these opportunities to either sell or redevelop these properties.
(Message edited by rjlj on June 20, 2008) |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 489
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 4:50 pm: | |
He lives pretty near your dilapidated properties that we all have the pleasure of staring at. I love the stench that blows out of the vent fan above Otto's Crispy Corn on my walk to work. The junkies in the alley pissing on the Farwell are pretty cool though. |
Hockey_player
Member
Username: Hockey_player
Post Number: 427
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 5:26 pm: | |
Rjlj, You're thinking of hockeyguy. Get your facts straight.
I live in the city of Detroit, only a few miles from these (your?) eyesores, which I have to pass every goddamned day.
The point of printing an old article about Higgins is to show that nothing has changed with this deadbeat, that he's still a loser who is holding back progress only for his greed.
But since you claim I'm wrong, please share with us your (Higgins'?) perspective on why he lets buildings sit empty for 25 years while others around them managed to be rehabilitated in the same economic environment.
(Message edited by hockey_player on June 20, 2008) |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 848
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 3:08 am: | |
Burnsie,
The Book has more delicate preservation that would have to occur. The Book is also much taller than MCS, and much harder to work in. I am also assuming each building would actually require the same things being done and replaced regardless of condition. The condition is bad enough in both, that the same things would have to be done in both, even though MCS is worse off. Also, you typically charge more for such things as height and lack of parking. The Book would be much harder to work in, and would take much longer to complete.
I am really just guessing, but that building is a rehabbers nightmare. It has been let go for far to long. The fact that people have been using it might actually make matters worse. MCS closed after a renovation. The Books are being closed after years of neglect.
If I am wrong about all this, please let me know. This is just how I see it. How many stories would have to be worked on without the help of an interior elevator? Even if one was available, that is a whole lot of supplies and tools that has to be hauled up to the top of that tower.
MCS is a cake walk in comparison to that thing. Seriouslly, am I mistaken in saying that the Book is probably going to be the most expensive rehab project in Detroit? Please, I don't want to be giving out false info. Someone please set me straight if I'm wrong.
The Book is going to be a problem.
(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on June 21, 2008) |
Rhymeswithrawk
Member
Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 7:40 pm: | |
"Park Avenue Hotel - in use "
I thought he designed the one next to the Eddystone, on Sproat, I believe.
http://i215.photobucket.com/al bums/cc280/buildingsofdetroit/ Postcards/ParkAvenue.jpg |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 279
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 9:49 pm: | |
At least one elevator in the tower was still working (intermittently) when my father had to move out, and more worked within the past couple of years. In any case, you could haul stuff up the exterior if you needed to.
But there is no doubt that it would be expensive to rehab. But as I said someplace else, the big difference between the Book Tower and the MCS is that although the MCS is an icon, it is not near anything else and is not owned by someone who cares if it is redeveloped. That is not the case with the Book Tower. What is preventing the Book from being redeveloped is the same thing keeping many other downtown buildings in their present conditions--lack of demand for space downtown.
If demand materializes, the buildings will magically start to get rehabbed. |
Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 518
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 10:49 pm: | |
I agree that the interiors of both would be gutted before building out the units. Book Tower has the stairs issue, but it sounds like that has been solved.
MCS has a lot of public space compared to its money making space, and all of that grand public space would probably need to be restored in order to get historic money. That alone would be quite an undertaking, and would be really expensive. MCS also has a lot more ornament to clean and repair.
MCS has plenty of space for parking, and Book Tower could have a parking problem. But at the same time, Book Tower is in a desirable location, while the only thing good about MCS is the building itself. Book Tower offers urban living, which is something people moving to either of these places would probably want.
I don't think that height would be a major issue. It might be more expensive to do some things, but compared to the rest of the project I don't think it makes a big difference (otherwise tall buildings would all be closed down because of the unbearable cost of window washers). It would probably be a pain to work in the tower because of the circulation problems, but I think the contractor would be able to manage it. They would probably put the new elevators in first. And in the great scheme of things, I don't think the cost of the worker's parking is going to impact the project.
There is flat out no way that the MCS could be in better condition than Book Tower.
But before any of that matters, I think that Book Tower would be preferable for developers, because it's just a better place to live. After seriously thinking about it, I don't think many people would actually want to live there. The only thing good about MCS is the building itself (who's restoration issues would work against the project). If it was empty land, no one would want to develop it.
There are a lot of other buildings in Detroit that would be easier and would make more money. I think Book Tower is definitely doable, but somewhere down the list, and I don't think that MCS is on the list at all until the neighborhood around it becomes desirable. |
Detmi7mile
Member
Username: Detmi7mile
Post Number: 77
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 10:57 pm: | |
I hope somebody restores it. It's such a beautiful building esp if they were to clean the outside ala BC Building |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 872
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 8:28 am: | |
I disagree about the location being a detractor of MCS. Downtown is the area that is over saturated. However, Lafayette Park is doing pretty good, is it not? MCS, should be marketed the way some of the towers in Lafayette are being marketed. There is going to be more demand in the Baby Boomer Generation for space that is urban, but also secluded and quiet. On the other hand; there is not enough demand for the type of dense urban space that The Book would provide. At least, not right now.
If you were to buy both buildings, you would find that any construction, maintenance, or delivery service company will charge more for having to haul anything up to the top of the Books thirty eight stories, than the top of Central Station's eighteen stories.
That will hold true even if all interior elevators are working. That is not to mention how slow the Book's elevators are (I a guessing). It's all little costs like this that I can see that are making me think the Book would be more expensive. All those little things add up fast.
There are other issues too. Guys, I am usually an optimist here. The reality is that the Book restoration would be a mammoth project. I honestly wish it wasn't true, but I wouldn't be getting my hopes up.
It has potential, you are right. I see it being awhile though.
It is doable... almost all the buildings standing in shouting distance of the CBD are. But... there is a level of realism here that even I can't overlook. The Book looks to me that it holds the most challenges. You guys are right, there are no problems, only opportunities.
But, wow! The Book Tower sure does have a lot of opportunities!
Looking back at that picture of how it was supposed to look with the eighty story tower makes me think that if Detroit ever did get a huge tower, it should be built on the end of the Book. It should include a solid use for the rest of the building. Actually, Lowell kind of made me think about that when he posted his picture of The Book Tower in the "Quickens Rendering" thread. As currently unrealistic as that may be, it would be an amazing thing.
Hopefully they can at least keep the roof on this one...
Until Gthomas builds his tower he's dreaming of... it'll happen. ;) |
Lorax
Member
Username: Lorax
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 10:59 am: | |
Hi, this is my first post, and being a former resident, and having been raised in the area and now living in Miami, I have been keeping up on what's happening by watching this site- which is great! I get back to visit a sister once a year, and will be in town next week for another visit. As for the Book Building,(my favorite downtown) it needs protection and security at all costs- the cherub clock in the lobby entrance, and the long covered glass dome in the lobby atrium ceiling if restored would make a super hotel or condo building. The thread about slipcovered buildings needs to make mention of the horrid drop ceilings of the Book's lobby. Look forward to many more posts! |
Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 519
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 4:01 pm: | |
MCS isn't in a quiet secluded neighborhood. There is no neighborhood there, and if it's quiet and secluded it's because it's abandoned.
There are already a lot of apartments outside of downtown, if anything I'd say that is more saturated than downtown. All of those big apartment buildings are on Jefferson, not in downtown, and when it comes down to it, those places aren't particularly urban (and MCS wouldn't be urban either), while downtown Detroit has the entire region's demand for urban living to work off. Book Tower would also hold less units, and could also be mixed use, which would help it deal with demand issues.
And while Book Tower is taller (I still don't think the extra cost would make a big difference, considering the scale of the entire project), it's in a reasonable condition. MCS is half destroyed. And like I said before, MCS has a lot of really expensive stuff that needs to be fixed, while Book Tower doesn't. While operating the building once it's open, MCS has a lot of stuff to maintain, while Book Tower doesn't.
And I think that something else that speaks about the buildings, is that Book Tower has been occupied until recently. The train station wasn't able to function as anything, which is why it's been abandoned for decades. Book Tower is currently abandoned because it got shook up after a failed renovation attempt.
Book Tower's history isn't all that great, but it's better than MCS's. MCS did ok until the streetcars were removed in the 30s (starting its location issues). Then WW2 managed to keep the station going. In 1956 the owners tried to dump the building. 10 years later the grand public spaces were closed because they were too expensive. Later Amtrack bought it, tried to fix it, it didn't work, and then they tried to dump the building. Since then a variety of owners have been dumping the building. For 40 years the station was making it by, and for over 50 years it's been going downhill. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1437
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 7:33 pm: | |
Higgins getting financing for Broderick? Fat chance.
He owes 100K in property taxes now. His name just alone on the deal would keep people from buying into it. He ain't no Trump, just a landlord chump. ( I do give him some credit for trying though.) |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 490
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 8:17 pm: | |
How is downtown oversaturated sean_of_detroit? With what. Vacant building stock? |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 281
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 8:47 pm: | |
When the Book elevators were functioning, the elevators were pretty fast--there were expresses that went about halfway up without stops. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6055
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 12:03 am: | |
Question, does KSI Capital provide any kind of on-site management, if even for emergencies? Or, are they simply holding the building? |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 880
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 12:27 am: | |
With loft and condo projects. There is not enough demand for what we have. Not until people get their credit problems worked out anyway.
Apartments are even iffy. Remember, there are many projects on the table that will be done way before the Book could be. We are speculating on a future market here. Also, some are assuming that the Book will begin renovation in it's current state. I'm assuming a project will take years to get off the ground. It will not be in the condition it is in today. True even if it is well secured (Free Press, Metropolitan, and Tiger Stadium all come to mind). Plus, we are also assuming that conditions don't matter. Both buildings are to a point of no return. Getting worse (in some areas) no longer makes the projects much more expensive. That is because the both have been neglected long enough over the years to warrant a complete overhaul. The same things would have to be replaced.
Now as to everyday maintenance; I don't think I said anything about that, but maybe I did. I didn't go back and read what I wrote exactly. However, when talking about renovation, future maintenance would not be included in those numbers, would it?
Also, I was under the impression that the Book has some very ornate architecture in large amounts all over the building and tower. I don't think MCS has nearly as much. I honestly am not really sure about that though. Can someone shed more light on that subject please?
Hey, you guys are getting me excited with the hope that I am wrong about all this. I would be very happy to be wrong on this one. Hopefully I am, and it takes peanuts to renovate. I will be one of the first in line to see the ribbon cutting ceremony if I am.
However, there are a lot of skeptics posting on this one that are much more in the know than me. They are usually among the optimistic "yay Detroit" crowd with experience in Detroit projects, and they don't seem to see it either.
I think it will happen. I'm just not getting my hopes up thinking it will be anytime soon.
I seriously see every other building in the CBD and Corktown being renovated or demolished first. That is of course, unless there is some huge tenant that chooses it over building new ( ).
But, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd rather be expecting nothing on this one, and then be pleasantly surprised. |
Bobzilla
Member
Username: Bobzilla
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 9:38 am: | |
Hey Rhymeswithrawk -- Kamper designed three new hotels on Park Ave around 1924 for Mr. Tuller of the Tuller Hotel. The Royal Palms was at Park and Montcalm. The Eddystone and Park Avenue hotels were both at Park and Sproat.
After the Park Avenue Hotel closed, the Royal Palms Hotel ended up being renamed the "Park Avenue House." It has really been an apartment building rather than a hotel for many years, and it has the Town Pump bar. |
Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 521
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 1:53 pm: | |
If you just look at the two buildings, you can see how much ornament there is on the outside. Book Tower has a lot of ornament on the top of the tower, but it is all concentrated there, on a surface area that is not that huge. The Book Building has a cornice, but only on one side. Then aside from a few bits of concentrated ornament half way up the tower, it's mostly a limestone box. Meanwhile, the top of MCS is also ornate, but being a broader building, there is a lot more cornice and ornament. Then the base of the building has quite a bit of ornament as well. Then the interior of MCS has huge grand rooms, while Book Tower's lobby is a lot more modest.
Maintenance is important in the renovation because the buildings are being renovated to make money. If operating the building is unfeasible, then they're not going to want to renovate it.
MCS is in a million times worse condition than Book Tower. Book Tower is not past the point of no return, until just recently it was occupied. I don't think anything could be done to the Book Tower that hasn't already been done to MCS.
I'm not saying that Book Tower would be easy to do, I'm just saying that it would be better than MCS. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1428
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 1:53 pm: | |
Jasoncw wrote, "Later Amtrack bought it"
Amtrak never owned the MC Depot. Conrail sold it in 1985 to the first of a series of owners, finally ending up with Moroun. When Conrail relocated its offices in 1985, Amtrak had to shoulder all the costs of running the building, so it got out. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1429
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 1:56 pm: | |
Jasoncw-- Your points about the Book Tower are basically what I would take the time to say, if I wasn't at work and had more time to type. |
Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 522
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 2:08 pm: | |
Oh, sorry, I misread the wikipedia article. Thanks for the correction. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 898
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 9:36 am: | |
Jason, thanks for the corrections. While I am learning a lot about MCS, my knowledge of the Book is not nearly as good.
I have never even been in it.
So I was basing my comments on what people I consider to be more "in the know" than me thought. I was under the impression that it was in much worse condition. There are several buildings in our CBD that have large sections and entire floors in comparable shape to some areas of MCS. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Book was one of these cases. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 10:31 pm: | |
S of D: I was half joking regarding a Halloween haunted house, although it would be totally kick ass, the economics don't support it there. Insurance would be A Lot and the owners, who I don't know probably wouldn't go for it giving they are attempting to resell. Although the idea could be had somewhere, as it should be in the D I could defiantly see it happening somewhere. I will look into it more. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 492
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 11:58 pm: | |
Just think. This could be your view from the Book!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com /118/294225294_bcadac210c_b.jp g |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 909
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 1:16 am: | |
Agreed, not in the Book.
My idea is for a location off Woodward or Cass, possibly in Midtown. The problem is insurance, among other things.
Concerning the Broderick...
This building can't even keep it's retail tenants. Does anyone know why that is? It seems like it should be a great location. The owner of the Tavern On The Park was always complaining that he wasn't making any money. It was the main reason he caved to the illegal activity that was going on there for so long.
Or so I'm told. |
Lukabottle
Member
Username: Lukabottle
Post Number: 164
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 5:07 am: | |
Sean_of_Detroit,
I used to bartend at Tavern on the Park. Mike Higgins was the actual owner. Gabe Murray claimed to be the owner but was a liar. Mike hired him to manage the place. Mike has a reputation of not wanting to pay fairly so he hires really shady characters. Gabe was stealing from the register and also screwed over Hell City Records and crew who were trying to bring in business. Gabe thanked them by stealing a 2,000 dollar projector, a large number of records, and other sound equipment. Hell City was not involved with the after hours. They were a great group of guys who fight for Detroit music.
We had constant problems. The hot water heater went and Mike Higgins wanted us to keep serving food. The staff refused. All the staff wanted to see the bar make it. Lack of proper equipment and supplies, urban explorers breaking in on a regular basis stealing liquor and throwing things off the roof into Woodward, people breaking windows costing Mike 50,000 in fines all worked against the bar. Also, the people mover was built on top a large water main that was flooding the sub basements. The city was also trying to correct a small sewage leak into the building. We constantly had to run sump pumps to prevent the water from raising.
On top of all of this, fighting to keep clientele in and crackheads out was a challenge. The baseball bat behind the bar was my best friend. The clientele (punkers) helped too with insuring my safety. Gabe was not forced to throw after hour gigs. He did it without Mike's knowledge. You can probably find Gabe performing drag at the Pink Flamingo in Pontiac or Gigi's. He was a chronic liar and a lot of the staff including myself fell for it. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 494
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:18 pm: | |
^ Ah yes, those days when going up into the tower to pictures almost seemed semi-legit. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 922
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 8:24 am: | |
Going back to the picture of the unbuilt Book Tower posted by Gistok on the bottom of the first page of this topic (July 16th Archive).
That would be something to see. It would have been taller than the Ren Cen, correct? I wounder what the square footage would be on that thing.
Amazing. What on Earth did the plan to use all that space for? Minus the Ren Cen, it almost looks like you could fit all the current CBD office tenants in The finished Book. Seriously amazing.
Someone needs to talk to Mr. Gilbert and the people at Quicken. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2598
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 8:26 am: | |
It would have also been the tallest building between NYC and Chicago (like it should have been).
It wouldn't work now beacuse there's no demand for a huge building of its size. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 496
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 12:13 pm: | |
^ That might be the case if this project was suddenly reincarnated and was built exactly the same. I'm wondering about the shape and square footage of each floorplate. It may have been a successful tower today had it been class B+ office space. This assuming we have no strange L or U shaped floorplans in the tower.
I work in an old U shaped 1920's office building and there's nothing more annoying than cut off spaces, odd cubicle arrangements and the disconnection between each wing at the elevator core. |
Lorax
Member
Username: Lorax
Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 1:07 pm: | |
Anyone know if the cherub clock is still hanging from the ceiling at the Book Building's entrance, and who will be responsible for securing the structure going forward? Also, there is a domed glass ceiling under the drop ceiling going up several stories in the lobby- assuming it hasn't been uncovered since I was last there. |
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