  Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2144 Registered: 05-2005 |
its about damn time quote: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2008806120352 | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 7111 Registered: 10-2003 |
About damn time x2. | ||
Mtm Member Username: Mtm Post Number: 309 Registered: 06-2006 |
I hate to put a fly in the ointment but how the heck are they planning to enforce this? Scrap dealers taking in copper wiring and other metal obviously being removed from buildings are probably already aware that they're involved in illegal business. Do you think that being told "no more cash deals" will REALLY stop them from cash deals? | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 162 Registered: 03-2008 |
Not really..sellers can still falsify identity and will simply have to cash their checks at one of Detroit's three billion crooked check cashing places instead of pocketing cash at the time of sale..the only ones this will hurt are the buyers. There are already laws on the books prohibiting theft, sale of stolen property, and receiving stolen property. Wouldn't it make more sense for law enforcement agencies to enforce the laws we've already got rather than place the burden on local businesses? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1915 Registered: 08-2006 |
In Hazel Park they require their dealers to keep a 30 day log of whom they bought metals from. The Police stop by to check the lists monthly. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 523 Registered: 03-2005 |
A few well-timed and well-publicized stings at scrapyards would help root out the bad ones. The good ones already don't want anything to do with crooks. How about adding a waiting period to receive the check? That would eliminate a lot of crackheads. Holding businesses responsible for accepting stolen property (or in this case, helping them avoid it) is hardly a "burden." | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 163 Registered: 03-2008 |
Businesses are ALREADY held responsible to not receive stolen property. The law is simply not enforced. What makes you think that adding additional rules will improve enforcement? Cops can't be bothered to come out and stop theft when a citizen reports it, so they're placing the burden of catching crooks on businesses in a city where it already sucks to be in business. It IS a burden to require a business to completely change it's mode of operation and maintain records in addition to those already kept. This is like the whole "gun control" fiasco..it's already against the law to shoot someone, all that any additional legal mumbo-jumbo does is hurt the law-abiding. | ||
Django Member Username: Django Post Number: 889 Registered: 10-2003 |
This will do NOTHING. Theres already plenty of afterhour scrapbuyers. These guys buy non ferrous metals from 5pm -8am, they pay half of what the regular yards pay, and their all over the city. Their business may shoot up a little, but scrappers will just find a way to cash a check. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 1142 Registered: 11-2003 |
How about licensing this particular profession for the sellers? Dozens and dozens of professions are licensed by the state. Why not sellers of scrap metal. If nail salon operators, barber shop operators, security guards, and community planners need to get a state license to do business in this state, why not scrap metal vendors? The regulation could also make anyone with a felony conviction ineligible to obtain a license. Also, the law could impose heavy fines and/or revocation of scrap dealer licenses for those caught buying from unlicensed sellers. Despite what Republicans will tell us, government can help solve the metal theft problem. This state and certainly its urban centers would be a lot better off if only a fraction of the resources we devote to the enforcement of marijuana laws were reallocated to metal theft. The latter is a much more harmful problem. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 525 Registered: 03-2005 |
django Those after-hours scrapyards would be the unscrupulous ones that need to be shut down. A few well-publicized stings would help. They're really no different than any other illegal business. Zrx Is it really that much harder to write a check than pay cash? Lots of businesses operate that way. | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 164 Registered: 03-2008 |
It is if your business isn't set up that way. Who picks up the tab for the additional bank fees? As was said, the yards that are receiving stolen metal are well aware of it. In other words, they're crooks..since when do crooks obey new laws any more than they had the previous ones? Your point about raids & sting operations is spot-on..but those things could be accomplished without the additional red tape of more legalese. The problem is not legitimate business, it is crooked business..crooks will simply find new ways around new laws. Why not take a stab at enforcing the old ones? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2315 Registered: 12-2005 |
put marines in every scrap yard. oh wait, they are in Iraq. nevermind | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 722 Registered: 03-2008 |
How about we get a few cops to set up a vacant looking house that is just irresistible to scrappers? Then when they go to scrap it, they are quietly arrested and the house is re set up for the next ones? They do this with cars. Could it work with houses? It can't be that hard to catch some of these guys. Of course, it may also not be worth it without bigger penalties. | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 321 Registered: 12-2006 |
Bait scrap? I can see it now: "Bait Scrap: The Series" on TruTV! That's one way to get stuff filmed in Detroit! Have you got a treatment written? Seriously, Seanie, totally left field thinking. And it might just work! I hate building vultures. It's about time somebody woke up! | ||
Django Member Username: Django Post Number: 905 Registered: 10-2003 |
SofD. we need to get in touch. That is a GREAT idea. How can we contact eachother? Dame is spot on. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 727 Registered: 03-2008 |
My E-mail is this name at Yahoo.com. I will also be at the DYES gathering at the fireworks. I don't know if it would work though. What are the penalties for scrapping? Is it just a slap on the wrist fine? Will they just pay it and be back out doing it again? I don't know how much they are making either. That also would come into play. I like Eastsidedamies idea of filming it too. That would make it more undesirable by hurting reputations. Of course, I don't know if hurting reputations is a good thing. It may just make it harder for people to go legit in the long run. You guys can E-mail me any time. Sometimes it takes me a couple days to answer, but I always make it a point to answer my E-mails. (Message edited by sean_of_detroit on June 13, 2008) | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2317 Registered: 12-2005 |
If you are going to video a scrapper in action, get the whole process, including the scrap metal yard that buys the goods. | ||
Psewick Member Username: Psewick Post Number: 113 Registered: 03-2006 |
1. I hate those lousy legislators! They're doing nothing! 2. I hate those lousy legislators! They did something, but I'll complain and say it won't work! When will they just wave a magic wand and solve all of our problems already?! | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2008 |
You CAN'T solve crime by legislation, expecting to do so is literally asking for your "magic wand" solution..criminals don't care about laws, whether they've been on the books for hundreds of years or are newly created. Again, see the parallel between this issue and the gun control one..literally HUNDREDS of new laws regarding firearms passed in the last two decades, what has it actually done to decrease gun violence? Statistics say that violent crimes involving guns have risen, despite all the hoops that law-abiding citizens have been made to jump thru. If you wish to stop crime, enforce existing law before writing a new one. It irks me to see government become more & more entwined in our everyday lives. | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 632 Registered: 03-2006 |
I sell all my scrap copper on ebay. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 1747 Registered: 02-2007 |
Or fix the economy, revalue our dollar, the metals prices drop. Not worth scrapping anymore, like it used to be. This trade catastrophe we're enduring has so many facets. | ||
Django Member Username: Django Post Number: 909 Registered: 10-2003 |
SofD, Im sorry, I kind of got your post and Dames post mixed together in my head. What I meant to say is I love the Idea of setting up a bait house and getting it on camera. You and dame both have my nod. I just think thats great mix for "entertainment purposes only". | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1400 Registered: 07-2007 |
Great bill, now that all the copper is already stolen. | ||
Detroithabitater Member Username: Detroithabitater Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm on board Eastsidedame. We'll get an empty house and put some cardboard boxes of copper tube on the curb. Then when the scrappers come in, Chris Hansen will show up and start asking them what they are doing there and so on and so forth in that fashion. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 528 Registered: 03-2005 |
OK Zrx_doug, so it would be too much of a burden on legally operated scrapyards to open a checking account, even if it would help track and catch the worst offenders, potentially saving thousands of buildings and preventing millions of dollars in damage and blight. What would be your solution? Or would you rather just stick with the status quo until nothing is left of the city? | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 177 Registered: 03-2008 |
My solution has been stated already. ENFORCE THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS! How? Ya got me..the Detroit police force can't seem to handle the task. As to this new thing "tracking and catching" the worst offenders, I call BS. If I were an illicit scrapper, this law would force me to step one rung lower by procuring/making a false ID. It ain't hard when you only need to fool a crooked scrapyard that WANTS to be fooled..at this point I get my check and go cash it at the corner check cashing place, because all THEY give a shit about is getting their percentage of the check cashed. Eventually, the Detroit PD gets wind that "Joe Blow" (my new identity) has been selling stolen scrap, and diligently follows the tracks to the corner market, where Apu the clerk tells them he has a photographic memory and gives them a perfect description of me..amazingly, the cops are able to track me down despite my spotless record. At this point, they charge me with violation of the law that was already on the books. Why do I find this scenario so hard to swallow? Could it be because the same sleuths who were able to catch the slippery Mr. Blow were NOT able to apprehend plain ol' Doug while he was spending eight hours a day sawing pipes & wiring out of houses? Perhaps a more involved/less apathetic outlook from citizens would help..the folks on this board would most assuredly report a scrapper tearing up property..but would the average Detroit citizen? And would a Detroit cop respond in any case? Doubtful..this, as with all Detroit crime, calls for a stronger & more effective police force. Dunno how ya get one of those..any suggestions? | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 530 Registered: 03-2005 |
Right. We don't have the manpower available to have cops staking out vacant properties. They're busy chasing murderers and carjackers. Your "enforce the laws already on the books" mantra won't work unless the criminals are caught in the act, and there's absolutely no way to monitor every vulnerable building. So what's the harm in trying something relatively simple that might cut down on the problem? Sure, it won't eliminate it entirely. Sure, some of the hardcore scrappers might go through the trouble of getting a fake ID and scoping out which scrapyards and check-cashing places are the shadiest. But don't you think this might, just might, slow down the everyday crackheads looking for a quick buck? Wouldn't that make it worth it? Also, it would make it easier to crack down on the shady scrapyards: the ones that continue to pay cash under the table get shut down. A "stronger & more effective police force" ain't gonna happen as long as the city's being stripped and burned away. And it would cost much, much more than those "banking fees" that you seem to think would bankrupt these honest, profitable scrapyards. The new law wouldn't be perfect, but it would be much more practical. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2146 Registered: 05-2005 |
quote: don't forget broke college hipster kids!  | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 179 Registered: 03-2008 |
Bank fees, bookkeeping..have you ever dealt with a scrapyard? I used to strip aluminum at an auto salvage yard on thursdays and drive into Detroit to sell it to make friday's payroll. Basically, you've got a guy outside who weighs your load and gives you a payslip, and a guy inside who doles out your cash according to the first guy's reading. And it's normally as busy as all hell, with a line at both stops. You are in essence adding another full-time employee to each of these operations. Which is swell, if your aim is economic growth and you aren't the guy who has to pay this new employee. Here's my question..if the cops can't catch strippers in the act (this isn't like mugging someone and running away with their wallet..it takes TIME to strip scrap metals), how are they gonna catch them under this new set-up? You're assuming (I assume) that the scrapyards are going to turn in crooked strippers..but that assumption is false. The scrapyards ALREADY KNOW who the crooks are and they aren't bothering to turn 'em in now..all this does is remove responsibility for the crime from the scrapyards shoulders if some cop DOES happen to wander in and notice stolen goods. So yeah, in that scenario, you'll bust the crackhead..but you won't bust the folks who are supplying him with cash. At any rate, who is going to oversee all of this hoopla? Who's gonna check the yards to make sure they're keeping proper records, and how will they verify it? Here's a suggestion..take a few cops and form a stripper task force, let the public know their number, and turn 'em loose. Raise the fines & jail terms for this crime to a level that actually deters the crime. Do random inspections of scrap yards and actually bring charges against those found to be receiving stolen goods. Any of the above would have more of an effect than a "feel good" law requiring crooked businesses to police themselves. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 737 Registered: 03-2008 |
Anyone who tells you this city doesn't have enough police, is probably worried about their job a little to much. Quality is what we need more of, not quantity. Quantity, more police, can come AFTER we can learn how to get more of the ones we have to do their jobs. That is just my opinion. | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 360 Registered: 12-2006 |
Wow, you really know your stuff, Zrx_doug. Salient points. If I were the mayor, I'd call you. | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 212 Registered: 03-2008 |
And if the mayor called me, I'd hang up after telling him to resign. Catch-22. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 582 Registered: 06-2007 |
Speaking of copper thefts, I watched Patterson Terrace at John R and Erksine get picked apart two days ago. The police didn't seem to find any sense of urgency with me calling it in. | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 213 Registered: 03-2008 |
Exactly my point..how long were you able to observe the thieves doing their thing, Kid? And did the cops ever show up at all? | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 363 Registered: 12-2006 |
Please contact your reps in Lansing about this; see if they're worth your vote next time around. They should also tack on an environmental bill: prohibiting the disposal of recyclable materials from demolitions. This is both wasteful and destructive. The city would be forced to sell to scrap dealers and money go back into the city treasury. A town hall meeting on the subject would be a good thing. Get the building trades unions involved in this too. They would love a good "scrap" like this. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 2115 Registered: 11-2003 |
Zrx_doug -- Give me a break. This problem is serious enough that it needs to be attacked from all sides. I agree the police aren't doing a good enough job of stopping the theft, partly because some of them have a bad attitude or are poorly organized but also because there simply aren't enough cops. (Although there is a copper theft task force in the DPD which has made a lot of busts.) But that's all the more reason you need to make it as easy as possible to stop it at the middleman scrap dealer level too. I would like to see some analysis of the specifics in the house bill... which regulations will actually make a difference and which ones are mostly busywork. Thumbprints for ID sound good to me offhand, pawn shops have to do the same thing. And I like the no-cash rule. I'm not as sure about the others. Some industries need heavy regulation, like nuclear power, and unfortunately scrap dealing is turning into one of those. Yeah, some scrap dealers may get regulated to death, tough shit for them. In the grand scheme of things they are simply not that important to the Detroit economy relative to the damage being done. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2165 Registered: 05-2005 |
since brush park was mentioned, just wanted to note that the brewster towers have also started to undergo independant demolition |
