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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 6639
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bigglenlake, thanks for the support. Welcome to The Forum. Is your handle one of the 12,000 lakes in Michigan? It always seemed funny that Minnesota license plates read "Land of 10,000 lakes, and Michigan has thousands more. Crazy, eh.

jjaba, Proudly on the Westside.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 4976
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No worries about Pcasey. I'm all ears when it comes to learning about other cities. It just adds perspective to how we think about Detroit. And that's what this thread will hopefully accomplish.

For the record, Cinci is also usually excepted from my anti-ohio attitude bred through sports rivalries. Good place.

(Message edited by mackinaw on June 13, 2008)
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Pcasey
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Post Number: 29
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mack...couple o'things....the transit hub to which you refer is a metrobus hub. The Portland-style streetcars have passed city council but are probably two years away. Some of those pix are quite old, I noticed. If you go to the same link above and click Cincinnati at the top left, it will show you many other galleries, including some neighborhoods. Check those out, particularly the Over the Rhine collection..but the downtown is really thriving with people these days....lots of new bars/restaurants in and around Fountain Square (look at the photo collection)...I had to do a double take last night at all of the people on the square (selling beer and having a first class locally owned italian restaurant ON the square certainly help). Also located on the Square are Rock Bottom Brewery, Potbelly's and Graeter's Ice Cream (local fave). Bordering the square is Palomino's, Morton's, Boi Na Braza (brazilian steakhouse) and McCormick & Schmick's. Half block down is Jean Ro, great locally owned French bistro. Add in the Westin on the square, the classic Art Deco Netherland Hilton a block away, as well as the (4 star) Cincinnatian, Hyatt and Millenium Hotels 2 blocks away, and you get a good buzz of people on the streets. Also recently opened a block away is Nada, locally owned gourmet mexican restaurant (think Rick bayless stuff), Cadillac Ranch-a huge idiot-crowd-jamming bar replete with a lengthy outdoor sidewalk bar/rollup doors fronting the street (probably 200 feet long at least), and Oceanaire across the street (pricey seafood chain in retro deco luxe setting). Oceanaire, Nada and Cadillac Ranch all sit at different corners of the same intersection (the stunning Zaha Hadid Contemporary Art Center occupies the 4th corner), and all three opened in the past 2 years (as did McCormick & Schmick, Potbelly's, Graeters and Boi na Braza. Morton's was a relo the past year (to a much nice and swankier space)...Rock Bottom expanded greatly to a nice new outdoor seating area directly on the square).

The people programming the square are young and hip, and have events going on virtually every day and night, summer and winter. There's also a jumbotron for added fun, summer movie nights etc... Downtown Link

also, I would note that cinci has still retained a lot of its density, both in the downtown streetscape (narrow setbacks) and elsewhere. take a look at the Over the Rhine photos...amazing place on the edge of downtown. Greatest collection of 19th century Italianate architecture in the world....and coming back. Lots of big bad crime there, and also, like the Corridor, the repository of many social service agencies... but the cinci version of DEGC (3CDC) has bought up 225 buildings and is rapidly fixing things up, block by block. New unique retail and a great new restaurant and lofts...(in an area called "the Gateway Quarter...the link also has an older photo show on it). I know of at least two people who relocated here from east coast that are living there now and are quite pleased.

Things are definitely moving in the right direction. I didnt even mention the new 41 story skyscraper breaking ground this year across the street from my office or the mega-development on the river known as the Banks (mixed use retail/office/residential hotel, being developed by Carter out of Atlanta, who did Atlantic Station"), which is finally getting off the ground after many years of delay.


I'm all about adding to the perspective....and this is just one middling city 1/3 the size 4 hours away.

Big Glen--bite moi on the strikes. I'll deal with you later...besides, I'm going to the Reds-Sox game tonight dressed as Bernie Carbo. My wife will be dressed as Cesar Geronimo. Wish me luck.
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Dday
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good thing she won't be dressed up as Carlton Fisk.....

BTW...Nice write up. Where in Cinci do you live? I'm just N in Hamilton, not to far from Jungle Jim's
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 4977
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Over the Rhine-- that's it. I was trying to think of that neighborhood which I'd heard of. Cinci has a lot of old, dense development there in the east coast fashion.

Sounds like Cinci will beat Detroit to light rail by a couple years. I predict it will run on Woodward here by 2012, and many would call that optimistic.

Do you now live in Cinci?
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Pcasey
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Post Number: 32
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live on the riverbank under the Roebling bridge. It's pretty convenient for work and stuff but sucks when we get all this rain and the river rises. Sometimes other 'river rats" get in my stuff, which aint cool (I'm looking at you, Methy). Kind of reminds me of the Fisher King sometimes...
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Jjw
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Post Number: 521
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having lived in Detroit for 20 years and Baltimore for 23 years, I can safely say that the two cities have very little in common. Yes, they both have high homicide rates but the similarities end there. Baltimore is much more dense and compact. (Detroit sq. mi.-139.60; Baltimore sq. mi.-18.30). Baltimore has very few wide avenues. Baltimore's homes are mostly rows and those that aren't do not have large yards nor driveways. Baltimore's downtown is very connected to many thriving neighborhoods. Baltimore's homicides are mostly centered "in the hood" so it is fairly safe to walk quite a bit without worry. Baltimore has metro, MARC connector trains, light rail, and water taxi, along with frequent connector service via Amtrak to other cities. Baltimore's terrain is hilly throughout most of the city. Baltimore does not get into the whole "lawn care' thing. Baltimore has tons more people walking on the streets.

Detroit has it's musical past. Baltimore cannot compare. Detroters also have a fantastic sense of humor. Baltimorians seem to lack that. I actually think Detroiters are a bit friendlier. Detroit has it's connections with Canada.

Having said all that, I think Detroit is similar to Cleveland and other midwestern cities. I actually think it is more similar to even Chicago than Baltimore.
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 7135
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alright Pcasey, I see you're pretty defensive about Cinci. But face the facts that it has its share of rough areas and problems. I was just there two weeks ago, got off 75 and found myself in some serious blight. I may as well have been in Detroit. Nothing but abandoned shops and buildings everywhere. The only difference being they were all colorfully painted. Is that some sort of attempt at blight busting? Painting historical buildings garish colors? There was a large park filled to the brim with homeless people. Don't think you could get another person in it if you wanted to. Amazing how quick the transition between that and a nice downtown is. You cross an intersection, and suddenly everything is alive, clean, and full of shops and restaurants. I'm not downing it, it's a fascinating city, and the terrain there is great. I imagine someone could make good money owning a brake shop with all those steep grade roads around town. But it's no utopia, either.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 257
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Notwithstanding the propaganda from Pcasey, Cincy is one of the poorest and most troubled cities in the U.S., and is in only marginally better shape than Detroit.

Downtown is pretty dead, and there are some nasty high crime neighborhoods.
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Pcasey
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Post Number: 33
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the area to which you are referring, I believe, is Over the Rhine (as well as the West End from 75)...lots of blight, crime etc., but that park (Washington Park) has a major total reconstruction starting soon (including underground parking), and many if not all of the structures surrounding it are owned by 3CDC, among the 225 buildings they control in that hood and which are being redeveloped.

Also--you may have noticed the cranes and construction...an all new k-12 public performing arts school (to replace the school 4 blocks west, the SCPA).

That said, yes...there are addicts, crackheads and plenty of random crime...violent crime. There was a shooting a block from the park just last week. There is also a much higher density (people actually live in the old apartment buildings)...and a lot more street action. But major progress is being made...the past year has been amazing. Wait and see.

I'm not defensive, more of a big booster (as I was in detroit)....but we lived in Detroit for 10 years before coming here. And my family has lived here for 5 years now. It's no comparison. It may not be utopia, but you could've fooled us.

and JL...I'm just talking about downtown and OTR here. there's a whole lot more in the city proper....the type of neighborhoods and funky vibrant and architecturally interesting commercial areas which are nowhere to be found in detroit (or burbs for that matter).
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Crawford
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Post Number: 258
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guadalajara, Wirt? WTF?

Guadalajara couldn't be more different than Detroit. It's basically a Mexican version of a Sunbelt city, but with good public transit, and a beautiful, vibrant historic core. It's obviously more poor than rich, but this is Mexico we're talking about.

Guadalajara has a much bigger city population than Detroit. Are you referring to metro pop.?

Not sure what you mean by visitor unfriendly. It isn't really a big tourist center, but they have tourist trolleys, visitor centers and many other amenities.

Yes, most new development is on the fringes, but this is true of 90% of the cities on earth. Where do you think most Paris development is concentrated?

Best place for breakfast in the suburban mall? WTF? Are you referring to the Sanborns chain restaurant? They're awful for any meal, and they have locations downtown as well as in the malls.

Also, I'm not sure I would call their malls suburban. Most are in urban locations within the city limits, and are rather close to downtown.
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Crawford
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Post Number: 259
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pcasey, you sound as if you work for the Cincy CVB.

Cincy is a small metro with the same problems as metro Detroit. I will take metro Detroit, as it is much bigger, richer, better located and more cosmopolitan.

If you are talking city limits only (a small part of either metro), Cincy wins, but not by much. Comparing metros, Detroit is much more desirable.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's cool Pcasey. Sounds like you are just the kind of person Cincy needs around. I will say in past trips to Cincy, I fell in love with Skyline Chili. That's actually why I stopped in Cincy, to find some chili on may further south. On the way there and back! Skyline 3-Way made Sky-Way.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, the view from 75 heading North is amazing... Because there is no sign of the city whatsoever, then you come around a turn and over a hill and BAM - entire skyline just appears out of nowhere.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4978
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Similar to entering Pittsburgh.

Cities with terrain are awesome.
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Pcasey
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Post Number: 34
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Pcasey, you sound as if you work for the Cincy CVB.

Cincy is a small metro with the same problems as metro Detroit. I will take metro Detroit, as it is much bigger, richer, better located and more cosmopolitan.

If you are talking city limits only (a small part of either metro), Cincy wins, but not by much. Comparing metros, Detroit is much more desirable.



um, no...but whatever. I don't need to belabor this any more. See me in a few years and we'll compare notes.
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Jjw
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Post Number: 523
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also having lived in Mexico for three years outside of Mazatlan, Guadalajara is nothing like Detroit. There are absolutely no similarities other than being both urban areas.
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Bigglenlake
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Username: Bigglenlake

Post Number: 92
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Cincy is a small metro with the same problems as metro Detroit. I will take metro Detroit, as it is much bigger, richer, better located and more cosmopolitan."
Tru dat! I bet that the hicks on Cinci's city council would have worn a tiara even if they were single (Barbara Rose is widowed, so technically she is still entitled to wear a tiara, although wearing it to work was a serious, albeit forgivable, faux pas).

"If you are talking city limits only (a small part of either metro), Cincy wins, but not by much. Comparing metros, Detroit is much more desirable."

Do a little research Mr. Quitter, and you will see that while the median price of a home in Cinci has risen 33% since 2003 in Detroit it has fallen by 42%! HA- Yeah Pcasey, take that! 42 is a bigger number than 33 (in absolute value), what do you have to say for your little river hugging, sky scraper building, fun safe downtown city now?

Listen, my sister in law lived in Louisville for 4 years and I drove there for Easter once. Transiting through Cinci on I71 at highway speeds in the dark has given me a real sense of the place. You getting all high and mighty with your Roebling bridge reference, well, Roebling built the Brooklyn Bridge -BAM- there, and stay down! That's what I'm talking about.


Also- I agree no city in Mexico is similar to Detroit. However, in Peru the city of Machu Picu appears to have several striking similarities.
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Crawford
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Post Number: 260
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Biggenlake, you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.

I said "Comparing metros, Detroit is much more desirable".

You responded with an unsourced (and false) claim about recent changes in property values.

What is the point of this non-sequitur?

Why would recent trends in sales prices have anything to do with the relative desirability of a region? If Bloomfield Hills prices are down for the year, and Highland Park prices are up, are you seriously claiming that Highland Park is more desirable than Bloomfield Hills?

Anyways, your claims are incorrect. Cincy's economy is almost as bad as Detroit's, and property values have been dropping. In fact, Cincy is every bit as cheap (or even cheaper) than metro Detroit:

http://dcjobsource.com/homepri ces.html

Souther Ohio/Northern Kentucky is Appalachia. A beautiful region, but generally poor and not very desirable.
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Pcasey
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Post Number: 36
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a huge post here that was lost (?) when I tried to post/preview.

forget it...suffice to say you're way off base, but I don't care to spend the time to re-write it. Your link is also of little use if you knew anything at all about this city.
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Mrnittany
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Username: Mrnittany

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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm late to the discussion, but as another ex-Detroiter now living in Cinci (moved here last October), Pcasey and Dday (you know, folks who actually LIVE here) are right and some of you others are off-base.

Cinci is not Silicon Valley, but the economy's holding its own. Certainly better than what I saw in SE Michigan when there from 1997-2007. A good, steady, corporate base, a pleasant downtown (well, south of 9th Street or so, it's not perfect), low cost-of-living with affordable (but still generally rising) property values. The economy, overall, isn't nearly as manufacturing based as Detroit or the rest of Ohio. It's weird ... Dayton is still definitely "rust belt" IMO but we definitely aren't just 40 miles south.

I live in a neighborhood within the city limits 7 miles from downtown (Oakley) that is solidly middle-class, with walkable grocery stores and a couple walkable "neighborhood town square" areas nearby. A pleasant place to live. I'm sorry, but there is NO such comparable neighborhood in Detroit.

Cinci does have its problems: the racial tension is still there post spring 2001, struggling, poverty-ridden neighborhoods, Bengal football players perpetually getting in trouble, and a bizarre love-fest with playing cornhole at every get together, and putting cinammon on their chili (I'm not a fan of Skyline).

I don't mean this as a bash-Detroit fest ... it's my hometown and I'll always love it ... but some of the Cinci-bashing in this thread is way offbase. Detroit IS comparable to much of the rest of Ohio (I've always found Cleveland to be Detroit's "best match"), but definitely not Cinci.
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Bigglenlake
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Post Number: 96
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford said-
"You responded with an unsourced (and false) claim about recent changes in property values.

What is the point of this non-sequitur? "

I apologize. I will try to follow MLA standards hence forth Professor Crawford. My source was Trulia. Unlike many posters here on DY I do not post falsehoods. I consider the market to be a most accurate indicator of a locales desirability. If you do not then all I can say is it is great to meet a "Fellow Traveller" (If you don't understand the reference please ask and I will post a source.)

Oh, by the way, my earlier statements were far from false. You would do well to check facts, it will save you from making a fool of yourself in the future. Please understand no disrespect intended, just some friendly advice.
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Mrnittany
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also ... PCasey ... if you're still reading this, we're possibly working in the same office building (you said you're "right across the street" from the new 41 story office building going up). I'm in the 303 Broadway building (NW corner of 3rd & Broadway).

Do you know any get-togethers for ex-Detroiters down here? Always interested in meeting folks from home, only really met a few. Watching the Wings win the Cup this year was awesome, but also kind of weird without fellow fans.

Feel free to respond by e-mail: kthvh2001@yahoo.com

(Message edited by Mrnittany on June 14, 2008)
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Pcasey
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the input Mrnittany....I'm in Atrium 2...top 3 floors (28, 29 and 30) which will soon be blocked out by the Queen City Square tower...although I'm on the west side, so I guess my view is safe.

One of my points is that cinci is a much denser neighborhood fabric..., you live in Oakley, which is a solid mid-class starter hood (with a Fresh Market, a restaurant/bar biz district etc.), next to Hyde Park, 5-6 miles from downtown, where there are 19 houses for sale in excess of a million bucks...but next to HP is Evanston, where the most expensive house for sale at the moment is around 150K, and goes south quickly....which is next to Walnut Hills, where the most expensive house for sale is 2.9 million....but here's the point: Cinci is a city where rich and po folk live pretty close, and live in the city....maybe not next door neighbors, but neighborhoods are dense and pretty contiguous. As opposed to some metropolitan regions, where everyone flees to the (bloomfield/rochester/farmingt on) hills, many would be amazed to discover that we all live in the city limits, 2.9 million homes within a mile of 20K homes...all within a few miles of downtown. I could do a 2 mile run from my house and pass a house on the market for 800K and a crack house (or 3) in the same jog. Make no mistake, there is a lot of poverty, but there is also a lot of wealth, and we don't all flee on 96, 94, 75 of M10 at the first sign of a spinning hubcap.

Crawford's shtick is ill informed and I'll leave it at that.

Mrnittany, DDay and I may be getting together next week at a downtown watering hole (perhaps one that has been continuously operating since 1861). If so I will shoot you an email.

It is just not an apples to apples comparison, never has, and that's why I think it needs some clarification.
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Dday
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MrNittany

I get together with a couple of ex-Detroiters once on a while down at Arnold's downtown. We're meeting somewhere in OTR later this week. The last time I was at Arnold's, the whole freakin'bar was ex-pat Detroiters.....I was wearing a Tigers jacket that night and was the last to leave, and well, I stayed a little bit longer (Mrs. D-Day wasn't exactly happy about that, but, oh well). Shoot me an e-mail here. I'll let you know what transpires.

As for the Cinci bashing, I agree. Detroit will always hold a special place for me. My family and best friends are all still there, but I live here now and it is surprisingly nice.
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Dday
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh...I see PCasey beat me to the punch
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Pcasey
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Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no problem....I think we meet at Arnolds (circa 1861)first, but you guys gotta see Grammers (5 or so blocks north at Liberty and Walnut)at least for one Moerlien Barbarossa. Plan for Thursday.

My brother is exhibiting in the sculpture show next weekend on the Purple People Bridge (set up is Thursday) but we can fit this ex-pat Detroiter meeting into the mix.....definitely.
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Bigglenlake
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 9:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can we move this love fest to the Cinci Connections section?
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Lombaowski
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Philadelphia except Philadelphia had a lot of ethnic neighborhoods that lasted through the years. Baltimore and Oakland would be the two cities outside the midwest that are most like Detroit today. Baltimore is like Detroit because of the fabulous architecture, it's social/crime problems, it's economy, and it's attitude. Baltimore has done a great job with the inner harbor though and Fells Point is also very nice. You can walk from one to the other (2 miles or so) without running into any problems. Oakland is a broke city but it sits on some of the most valuable real estate in the U.S. I could see Oakland coming back someday soon.

Flint, Saginaw, Youngstown, Gary, and Akron are just mini Detroit's without a lot of the charm or attractions.
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Lombaowski
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leipzig is an interesting comparison that I would agree with. In Eastern Europe there are a ton of cities that resemble Detroit like Bucharest, Chisinau, and especially Odessa Ukraine. Wroclaw Poland, Warsaw to some degree, and a ton of mid sized towns in the Baltics look like Detroit with lots or old industrial sites, poverty, crime, and interesting city centers.
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Pcasey
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glen Arbor is kind of like Detroit, Burdickville too.
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Bigglenlake
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Glen Arbor, Leland, and Empire form a metro area. With the folks from Leland and Empire hating the Glen Arbor folks. But, they visit Cherry Republic and Arts in the down town, damn suburbanites.
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Jjw
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Philadelphia except Philadelphia had a lot of ethnic neighborhoods that lasted through the years. Baltimore and Oakland would be the two cities outside the midwest that are most like Detroit today. Baltimore is like Detroit because of the fabulous architecture, it's social/crime problems, it's economy, and it's attitude. Baltimore has done a great job with the inner harbor though and Fells Point is also very nice. You can walk from one to the other (2 miles or so) without running into any problems. Oakland is a broke city but it sits on some of the most valuable real estate in the U.S. I could see Oakland coming back someday soon.


---There is much more to Baltimore than just the Inner Harbor and Fells Point. ALL of the neighborhoods surrounding the downtown area are active and relatively safe to walk. Canton, Federal Hill, Locust Point, Butchers Hill, Patterson Park. I could go on and on. AND... that is what makes Baltimore much different from Detroit. Your other remarks don't make much sense also. Baltimore has a very low unemployment rate which would negate the "economy" reference. Baltimore's architecture is actually no different than other northeastern cities. It's social/crime issues are the same as any other city; not just Detroit.
And attitude?? not even sure what you mean by that? As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't see the connection at all other than both cities having a high homicide rate.
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Bigglenlake
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Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Burdickville, that's just like Hamtramck to the Colossus that is GLEN ARBOR.
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Trainman
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Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paris France.

The city of Paris is nice but the suburbs are slums.

Downtown Detroit is nice but the suburbs are slums because of Wal-Mart. The city of Livonia along Plymouth Road is the best example of this.

Take a drive and see the vacant stores, lack of bus service and the lack of job opportunities to make much more then minimum wage with no benefits.

But there is hope. Next August 2010, we can demand the return of state funding for SMART and Livonia bus service by voting NO.



(Message edited by Trainman on June 22, 2008)
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5012
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try saying all that to mr. average metro Detroiter and see what the response is. haha...

La Defense must be Paris' version of Southfield?

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