Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2192 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:26 pm: | |
Bragaboutme, the red building with the pointy roof is a church with a beautiful rose window, at the corner of Woodward and Edmund Place. I couldn't read the sign and can't remember which church it is. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1322 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:41 pm: | |
Again, it's Historic First Congregational |
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2193 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:42 pm: | |
I found it: First Presbyterian Church Other Name: Ecumenical Theological Seminary 2930 Woodward Avenue Detroit, MI 48201 National Register Date: December 19, 1979 About the First Presbyterian Church Built by the oldest Protestant congregation in Michigan, the Romanesque-style church features a large square tower, corner turrets, and tall clerestory windows. In 1911, an adjoining ""church house"" was completed for educational and social activities. The congregation of the First Presbyterian Church of Detroit occupied the building for over one hundred years, but joined another congregation after membership began to decline in the mid-1980s. In 1990s, the Presbytery of Detroit has leased the space to house the Ecumenical Theological Seminary." http://www.woodwardavenue.us/h eritage/churches/view/?id=101 |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1323 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:52 pm: | |
I don't think First Presbyterian has a steeple like the church in the picture. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 2637 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:58 pm: | |
What's amazing to me in that picture is that traffic flowed with no lane lines until you got to an intersection. Must have been awkward for drivers in the far left lane near the streetcar tracks always having to merge right at the intersections where there was a streetcar pick-up spot. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1324 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:04 pm: | |
Yeah, that is pretty wild. It's almost like a game of connect the dots down Woodward. |
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2194 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:15 pm: | |
Jcole, there is a picture of it on the site I posted. It's the church down past the Bonstelle on the same side of the street. |
Jman Member Username: Jman
Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:17 pm: | |
I believe the Gazhekwe picture is the church across Woodward from Fyfes Shoes on Adams. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1325 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:19 pm: | |
I was talking about the one closer in on the same side of the street across from the very long building on the right. The one with the taller steeple. Sorry |
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2195 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:32 pm: | |
It's on the corner of Edmund, a few blocks up from Adams. There are some beautiful churches in that whole stretch, Grand Circus up to I-94. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1326 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:40 pm: | |
In the left foreground of the 1949 picture is the Cathedral Church of St. Paul-Episcopal. Just up the block is the church I was mentioning, First Congregation, then down past the Bonstelle is the church you're referring to, the Woodward Ave. Presbyterian. Behind us there is the one Peachlaser asked about, Our Lady of the Rosary on Woodward at I94 and further up Woodward from that is the Catholic Blessed Sacrement Cathedral. There are numerous others interspersed all along Woodward, some still kept up, others in varying stages of decay |
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 572 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:57 pm: | |
Things were simpler back then (or so I'm told). Many believe that getting rid of some of the abundance of markings, signs, and laws, as well as giving bikes and pedestrians the right of way would require drivers to be more alert. Granted it would be much more stressful, but it might possibly be safer as well. Crazy idea. There is actually a documentary that runs every so often on the subject on Windsor's public access. I'm not sure how I myself, personally feel about it. I'm still working up to an opinion on that one. |
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser
Post Number: 187 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:06 pm: | |
Thanks Jcole! I think it would be much easier to restore the streetcar system now while the density is missing. Get the system running while there is relatively little population to be disturbed during construction. The development will follow. Thanks to folks on this board, I now know about the F-Line in SF. Will be there this summer so want to ride it on one of the historics. Seeing Penske getting involved makes me believe that some big things are getting ready to happen down Woodward. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1329 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:45 pm: | |
Bragaboutme, Are you asking about the building far in the distance beyond the Bonstelle that looks to be about 12 stories high. If so, according to some info I found, that used to be the Hotel Savoy, then the Hotel LaSalle and then the Detroiter, ending its life as Carmel Hall nursing home. If you're asking about the fancy looking one just past the pointy green capped church steeple in the foreground, I haven't yet been able to find out what it was. It's a Church's Fried Chicken, now. It may have been the Forest Theater 4635 Woodward Ave (Message edited by jcole on May 29, 2008) (Message edited by jcole on May 30, 2008) |
Bragaboutme Member Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 256 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:15 am: | |
Thanks Jcole, Thats the building, and it has its place in history too. There was a Jax car wash next to it 1 dollar a wash. http://www.time.com/time/magaz ine/article/0,9171,739981,00.h tml And it's demise. http://www.implosionworld.com/ carmelhall.html Thanks Gazhekwe, but there are two churches both corners, one still in use, one seems like it's abandoned which one is which? |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1335 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:27 am: | |
Brag, the abandoned one seems to be the Cathedral of Praise Baptist church. It's the one on the southeast corner. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3640 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:01 am: | |
The long building in question on the west side of Woodward was Convention Hall, predecessor to Cobo Hall. The front was on Cass Avenue. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1336 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
Thanks, Mikem. Another piece of the puzzle filled in. |
Homer Member Username: Homer
Post Number: 292 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:43 am: | |
Need me some of that "Mohawk Sloe Gin" for the weekend. |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1338 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:47 am: | |
I saw that sign. Times have changed |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1339 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:11 am: | |
Brag, The abandoned church on Woodward at Edmond Place on the SE corner was originally the First Congregational Unitarian Church. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2377 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:28 am: | |
Also, looking at the point where Woodward Avenue "curves" near the Whitney gives you an idea of the street widening at took place in the 1920s. Originally, Woodward was, at some points, an extremely narrow road. What they did was bulldoze all the stuff on the west side of Woodward south of the Whitney, and bulldoze everything on the east side of Woodward north of the Whitney. If you squint, you can see the original, pre-1920s dimensions of Woodward. |
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 3251 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:40 pm: | |
in the original photo check out the bill boards ... nice ... I'm drinkin whiskey You're drinkin gin with the two togther we're bound to win ... Yay Detroit! |
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle
Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 3:30 pm: | |
I wonder if the building that is adjacent to where Utrecht now is on Warren still exists under the wood cladding that makes up the side of Utrecht and Subway. Also looks like a couple of nice little storefronts where the Hannan House now is. |
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2199 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 3:51 pm: | |
There were lots of little storefronts there in the 60s. Gow's Little Acre, an import/gift shop, Johnny's restaurant, a bookstore. Imports weren't that common then. |
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 3198 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:06 pm: | |
You can also see the results of street widening on Michigan. From downtown to 14th, the buildings on the south side of the street were demolished for widening. From 14th to the Boulevard, the north side was taken. As a result, all the Victorian buildings on Michigan from downtown to 14th are on the north side of the street; with the opposite true for 14th to W. Grand Boulevard. |
Chris_rohn Member Username: Chris_rohn
Post Number: 450 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:33 pm: | |
The vortex seems to have been there even in 1942: |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2390 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:37 pm: | |
Oh, no! The vortex! That's explains it! One of these days, I'm going to put up a 200-foot ladder and climb into the wormhole to 1942, just in time to stop the race riot! |
Retroit Member Username: Retroit
Post Number: 168 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:51 pm: | |
I'd like to revisit the "number of lane" discussion (or argument!) from earlier. I'm either very poor at math or I'm missing something. The 1942 photo shows 10 effective lanes: 1 parking, 3 driving, 2 streetcar, 3 driving, 1 parking. The lanes approaching the intersection are marked for 3 lanes, so parking was either prohibited within a certain distance of the intersection or there really were only supposed to be only 2 driving lanes and drivers squeezed in an extra lane. Our 2008 Woodward has 7 effective lanes: 1 parking, 2 driving, 1 left turn, 2 driving, 1 parking. If light rail is added, we'd have 6 effective lanes: 1/2 parking (useless), 2 driving, 2 light rail, 2 driving, 1/2 parking (useless). I suppose the light rail could be off-center and we could have parking on one side, to the consternation of businesses on the other side of the street. Now, can someone tell me what I'm missing? How come we had 10 lanes in 1942, but if light rail were built today, we'd have only 6? |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2391 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:04 pm: | |
Lanes are larger today? Just an idea ... anybody remember how narrow they were on old Davison? Sometimes you'd almost clip handles with people next to you! |
Bragaboutme Member Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 257 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:35 pm: | |
I'm young but I think you both are right. I remember the Davidson before the expansion the lanes were more narrow than now and I remember a lot of pot holes. Ok Retroit, I agree with the amount of lanes standing at 7 and 6 effective. So the question is what do you do with the 1/2's. You will need parking on woodward, and they would be too big for a bike lane, so what would be a good solution. |
Bragaboutme Member Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 258 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:48 pm: | |
And to the abandoned church, I just passed by today and there's someone occupying the steps. I was going to ask him about this historical structure, but didn't want to disturb his slumber. Another Mystery solved, thanks all. |
Retroit Member Username: Retroit
Post Number: 170 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:46 pm: | |
Ah, I guess nothing can escape inflation, even lane width! |
Jcole Member Username: Jcole
Post Number: 1364 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 8:48 pm: | |
Brag, here's a link that has pictures of the inside of the abandoned church. |
Russix Member Username: Russix
Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 5:00 pm: | |
The sun is setting in the west. It could be close to 5 o'clock and people are loading up streetcars to leave downtown, therefore more outbound streetcars then inbound. Just a guess... |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 2659 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 3:00 am: | |
Redetroit, from West Grand Boulevard heading south to just south of the Fisher Freeway, Woodward has nine lanes: 6 driving, 2 parking, and the left turn lane. I noticed in the old picture that there are traffic lanes marked off by yellow lines on the side of Woodward where people boarded the streetcars, but there are no lanes where there isn't a streetcar stop. That might also explain why there appears to be 10 lanes. People just drove closer together it appears. BTW, notice that Forest (2nd street south of Warren) is a two-way in 1942. (Message edited by royce on July 01, 2008) |
Retroit Member Username: Retroit
Post Number: 268 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 2:29 pm: | |
Thanks Royce, I should have done more research! I still wonder how the narrower sections of Woodward will be able to cope with only 2 travel lanes in each direction and (presumably) no parking, especially considering that the purpose for light rail is to accomodate the MASSIVE flow of people. |
Quinn Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1609 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 3:47 pm: | |
OMG this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while. How awesome is that. Looks like it could've been taken with modern equipment. Fantastic! |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 2662 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 4:27 pm: | |
No problem, Retroit. Now, if you look south near Mack Avenue by the Bonstelle Theater you can see an inbound streetcar. |
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 728 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 5:02 pm: | |
quote:The 1942 photo shows 10 effective lanes: 1 parking, 3 driving, 2 streetcar, 3 driving, 1 parking. I'm not seeing the 10 lanes. I count 1 parking, 2 driving, 2 streetcar, 2 driving, 1 parking for a total of eight. Close to the intersections/streetcar stops, the innermost driving lane approaching the intersection is marked for left turns and the parking lane in the same direction becomes a driving lane. Two streetcar lanes plus a boarding platform must've translated into two driving lanes and one left turn lane, and then as now the parking lanes function as right turn lanes at major intersections. |
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1435 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 5:16 pm: | |
Quinn wrote, "Looks like it could've been taken with modern equipment." It was shot on large-format Kodachrome, a beautiful and extremely high-quality technique that's unfortunately dead. Kodachrome is only sold (where you can find it) in 35mm now. But 35mm Kodachrome easily still beats digital in quality. |
Retroit Member Username: Retroit
Post Number: 271 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 5:57 pm: | |
Bearinabox, if you look about halfway up the first block and count the number of cars/streetcars abreast, you get 10, hence 10 "effective" lanes. |
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1901 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 6:49 pm: | |
Woodward could easily be a 4 driving-lane (total) road, with turn lanes. The traffic counts are astoundingly low, somewhere in the 30,000/day range at the highest, less than 20,000/day until well past (North of) New Center. These traffic counts are less than Gratiot north of M-59, which is 4 lanes with a left turn lane. Fears of traffic jams on Woodward are greatly exaggerated. |
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 730 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 1:38 am: | |
quote:Woodward could easily be a 4 driving-lane (total) road, with turn lanes. That's essentially what it is now, except for the sections from the Fisher to the Boulevard and from Manchester to Ferris in Highland Park. From the DTOGS renderings, it looks like the parking lanes in the narrower areas would be removed, though. |
Pythonmaster Member Username: Pythonmaster
Post Number: 187 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 5:03 am: | |
First Congregational http://www.flickr.com/photos/j ustbeamensch/132814641/sizes/l /in/set-72157594143593544/ |