 
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 446
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:50 pm: |    |
As BuyAmerican has mentioned, an autoworkers job is tough and dangerous. Consider construction workers who work on the high iron. They get paid very well because their jobs are hazardous.(hazard pay). Auto workers get a lesser version of the same. Don't put us on the level with jobs that lack the hazardous element. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 880
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:51 pm: | |
Wash_man. the Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon, failed to mention that when you purchase a General Motors vehicle, a Chrysler vehicle, or a Ford vehicle, the PROFITS stay in the U.S.A. When you purchase a Honda, a Toyota, or whatever is made in China, the profits DO NOT STAY IN THE U.S.A. Is that simple enough?
When was the last time you saw the Thanksgiving Day Parade sponsored by Honda? When have you seen a play at the Fox Theatre sponsored by Toyota? What did Honda or Toyota or any of those foreign pieces of tin companies do for Americans after 9/11? Did they help Katrina victims? During WWII, what companies closed for regular business to help with the war effort...oh, I forgot, the japs attacked us didn't they. I don't want to hear any of the lame spins on American versus foreign...it just doesn't fly.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
....and most importantly....
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN! |
Flanders_field
Member
Username: Flanders_field
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:59 pm: | |
So who decides what a US autoworker's labor is worth?
The Japanese?
So when the Chinese inevitably begin to export cheaper vehicles into the country, will the Japanese demand concessions from their US autoworkers to compensate for their loss of market share and threaten to shutter their plants otherwise?
If one or more of the domestic auto manufacturers fold, will all or some of the foreign automakers expand their operations in the southern states? If so, will they do it without expecting generous tax breaks and incentives? |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 447
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:05 pm: | |
One, the Japanese Government would bail them out like Germany did, Brazil, Sweeden, & Europe in general.
Two, Pay in foreign transplants is pegged to be lower than the big 3 and would go down again if the big 3 go under.
(Message edited by warrenite84 on December 12, 2008) |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 691
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:06 pm: | |
The Big 3 deserve the highest wages. They are hard working (when managed correctly) US citizens who work for domestic corporations. I think a healthy wage right now would be $25-$30 and hour plus certain benefits.
Is this above or below the company average???
At the same time, you HAVE to cut management expense. If they simply limited executive pay to an agreeable multiple of the lowest paid worker for the company, you would achieve both goals. Zillions of dollars to the greedy execs and respectable wages to the lowest rung employees. Either both go up or both go down.
This all goes towards the Wall Street johnny's and their cronies as well. The separation between highest and lowest paid employees of a company IS directly related to the growing wealth gap we see in the United States currenlty. Yes, you can include Sandeep in Calcutta as you lowest rung employee. |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 367
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:06 pm: | |
Crawford, in 1919, before the UAW, my husband's relative was crushed to death working for Ford. My own relatives died in 1905 and 1915 from being worked to death by Ford at ages 19 and 22. My husband's grandfather was forced to repair a smokestack and fell to his death in 1928. He was a boilermaker, not a brick mason. His death was witnessed by his brother-in-law who then went to his family with the horror story. They were Emil and Ernest Mazey. Heard of them?
There are deaths in foundries every day. I want the UAW in place to protect them. There is no reason that automotive workers have to risk their lives to build a car and why go back in time to Harry Bennett years when people were treated like garbage? |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 571
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:07 pm: | |
Crawford, I think you raise a good point on the disparity of wages, actually. However, I think your solutions are backward. You say that it is not fair that a line worker makes more than an engineer. Well, perhaps engineers need to form a union. And you say that an American auto-worker makes more than a Bolivian. Do you also believe that the US should adopt the Bolivian standard-of-living? |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 2456
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:08 pm: | |
Crawford: "Carol, I am a consultant for Latin American retailers."
Why not put it more accurately - you are a shill for (anti-union) foreigners. I am sure your momma's proud of you.
Crawford: "I make more than the union folks..."
- More than 80 thousand a year? Why so much? What, are you GREEDY? You should be ashamed and take a pay cut. Who says your skill is in more demand? You? It's probably " a job that ANYONE on earth could do"; "a job that an illiterate 16-year-old in Bolivia could probably do better.
Crawford: "Who in their right mind would invest in a business where the employers have little say on how many employees they have and what they make?"
- And who would want to work at a place where the owners acted like tin gods and treated their (non-union) employees like dirt? That's why unions were formed in the first place. Too much "This is my goddamned company, and if you don't like runnin' the occaisional errand on your own time for me you can get your fuckin' ass out the door right now." Basically, that's what you are advocating. The owners should be able strut around and make any unreasonable demand they want of their powerless employees. How neo-con of you. I am sure you "South American retailers" love your Pinochet attitude. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 459
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:09 pm: | |
Warrenite, if the job is really so "tough and dangerous", then why not get a different job?
If it's really so "tough and dangerous", then why is it harder to get a UAW job than it is to get into Harvard?
I would like to see some statistics that backs up this claim. Working on an assembly line in 2008 is really "tough and dangerous"? In 1958, yes, definitely, but not now!
It's MUCH less "tough and dangerous" than working in construction, for example, and I don't know of any construction workers with benefits and protections like the UAW.
Here's what I know: My father has seen auto workers sleeping IN THE FACTORY at Lake Orion. How does that happen? |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9010
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:12 pm: | |
quote:Warrenite, if the job is really so "tough and dangerous", then why not get a different job?
-Andrew Carnegie to a dismembered steel worker, circa 1886. |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 502
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:13 pm: | |
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
....and most importantly....
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!
------------------------------ --------
Buyamerican, I do, I have always always bought American cars....'
Update on my 2003 Buick La Sabre....
two new hubs and discs with pad replacements
power stearing box replaced
driver side window motor replaced
back driver side motor replaced
front passenger window motor replaced
front disc pads replaced at 13, 000 miles
blower motor assembly replaced.....factory cost
Total milage on my Buick La Sabre. 38, 500....
Now, when it comes time to buy another American car, what do you think I should do, especially when the cost of my 3 regulator motors cost in excess of 2200 dollars alone......
Dont believe, me ....read these sites, then talk to me.......
The window problem is only the tip of the ice berg.......I have had more problems with my lastest Amercian purchase than ever.
Sadly, my entire family is now driving Camary and Accord, but I still am driving American and I am going broke in doing so
I am American, but the cost of "buying American" is costing me a fortune. Dont you think by now the automakers would be just as competitive as Japan?
Jane
http://www.aboutautomobile.com /Complaint/2002/Buick/Lesabre
http://www.carsurvey.org/viewm orecomments_review_52823_1.htm l |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 368
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:14 pm: | |
Forgot to mention: Three men died in my husband's building last month.
Also, I've seen engineers/managers at Ford's Design Center snoozing in their office ALL DAY LONG! |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 460
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:23 pm: | |
Alan, I work in Latin America. I'm based in Mexico City. There are no unions in Latin American retail, so it is irrelevent to my occupation. No, I have nothing to do with the pay scales in Latin American retail. I'm involved in site selection, which has nothing to do with employment standards.
There is nothing I can personally do to raise the standard of living in Latin America (besides paying my taxes and following the rules, which I do). And yeah, my mom is proud that I do well.
As for whether I'm overpaid, I make more than the UAW folks because that's what my clients want to pay me. Apparently I make them good money, and they're willing to pay me for my experience. If they don't think I'm worth the pay, then I'm out of luck. Unfortunately, GM doesn't have that option.
As for whether a 16-year-old Bolivian could do my job, yes, it's theoretically possible, but I speak four languages fluently, have an Ivy League MBA, a long client list, and many years experience in retail, so it's highly unlikely.
As for "treating employees like dirt", do you HONESTLY think BMW employees in South Carolina feel they are "treated like dirt"? What about Mercedes in Alabama or Honda in Ohio? I bet you they like their jobs, and there are many applicants for each position.
At the same time, these factories voted AGAINST UAW membership. Why is that? I thought they were being "treated like dirt"! I thought it was impossible to have a decent wage without the UAW! |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:29 pm: | |
Mash, you don't get the difference. The snoozing designers can (and should) be fired, the Lake Orion workers can't.
These death and dismemberment scare stories from Andrew Carnegie and 1886 DO NOT give the UAW the right to destroy the American auto industry.
Is there ANY EVIDENCE that a non-union shop is more dangerous than a union shop? Any at all? Are Mercedes employees in Alabama regularly being decapitated? |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2902
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:30 pm: | |
Jane one of the biggest reasons is that Japan has what is called "face value". That is, a person who runs a corp. usually has an underling that is 2 steps from the top. He too has an underling but in a tier two company (a supplier to the automotive assembler). To which he has an underling and on and on...
What happens is that the circle of influence is controlled by all of these people who know each other. None can be fired because it would be considered shameful.
What happens is that they ALL work together for the common goal because if one suffers, they all suffer. So they find common strategies (such as Lanchestor Theory)in order to keep high productive rates and costs down. No one is asked to reduce their costs over another because it is detrimental to their philosophy.
Contrast that with N. AMerican policies where the Big 3 continually demand, year on year, cuts to the suppliers costs. This cannot continue and wht you get is inferior parts or each supplier going head to head. In other words the lowest common denominator wins.
Not a good way to build and keep business is it? |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 999
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:31 pm: | |
Jane, Maybe you need to drive it more. |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2903
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:34 pm: | |
One of the biggest issues of union is that they do protect the shitty worker. The scumbag who comes in drunk or high. The scumbag who steals from the company. Why is the union using their dues to protect these idiots especially when the evidence is clear? Support the worker who does their job yes. Support the douche who does nothing? Fire his ass!
That, IMO is one of the reasons unions are hated. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:35 pm: | |
How come nobody hates management for protecting shitty managers? |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 462
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:37 pm: | |
Management should definitely fire the shitty managers. But why can't they do the same with the line workers?
Instead, they're sleeping up in Lake Orion... |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 369
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:38 pm: | |
Crawford, they're NOT designers. They're upper management with million dollar paychecks who cannot be fired because they signed a contract.
As for Mercedes: They've siphoned off 11 billion from Chrysler right before Cerberus bought them. Daimler are nothing more than thieves who took from Detroit and gave to the South. |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 370
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:40 pm: | |
Goat, I agree. If you're drunk or on drugs and you're Union, you're out. Pretty simple and it does need to change. |
Carolcb
Member
Username: Carolcb
Post Number: 2302
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:49 pm: | |
As for your answer as to why people in Georgia or Alabama voted against Union membership - it was probably because they were afraid of being fired! If you don't think that Union is dirty word any where south of Fort Wayne or Columbus or Springfield, guess again!
And - I am sure if your father wasn't a lawyer, you would have a completely different perspective on life. Too bad instead of your Ivy League persuasion, too bad you weren't lucky enough to graduate from your local community college! Oh I am sure you will tell me it is because of your brilliant mind, that you have worked hard every day to acquire this living you make in Mexico City - what - working next to someone who is making $3.00 a day!?
Anyone who had to go to Mexico to get a job - it explains a lot. The company I used to work for - they went to Mexico too....and my old office partner had her tiled house, with her inground pool, with her big high fence....working with people who made a tenth of what she brought home every month. But then, you are a Republican, and I have sure you see nothing wrong with YOU being treated ONE WAY, and everyone else being treated another way. Good luck down there south of the border, hope you don't need a Beaumont Doctor!!!! |
Blueidone
Member
Username: Blueidone
Post Number: 434
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:50 pm: | |
IMHO the problems we are suffering today have more to do with NAFTA and the QS-ISO 9000 systems implemented years ago than with the union, although I do agree that unions got out of hand for a while. But I also feel that they are trying to make some corrections.
I was employed at auto supplier firms for 25 years. NAFTA started some of the decline, then when the QS and ISO systems were implemented, forcing small businesses out of business because they couldn't compete due to the strict production and profit requirements, and the money it took to implement the systems necessary for certification (in order to do business with ANY auto company), downhill slide got faster and faster.
Yes, corporate greed and union greed are problems...but it is not fair to slap all the blame on them. There is plenty to go around. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 881
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:59 pm: | |
"There is nothing I can personally do to raise the standard of living in Latin America (besides paying my taxes and following the rules, which I do). And yeah, my mom is proud that I do well."
Crawford, you'd better pay your taxes and follow the rules in Latin America, otherwise you'll find out you have no rights at all. They will throw your ass in jail quick and never ask a question. Those are the kind of civil rights you have there.
Also, I agree with a couple of posters above regarding the UAW protecting thieves, drunks, slackers on the job. Those who steal, drink, take drugs, sleep, hide, clock out early, or anything else that hurts the company or their co-workers need to be gone...period! |
Carolcb
Member
Username: Carolcb
Post Number: 2303
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:06 pm: | |
It is not just the UAW protecting slackers....they are everywhere. My husband and I worked with people who left work to shag someone else than their wife on the 3rd shift....who sat and read the paper or the internet for a couple of hours every AM before starting to do anything.....who scanned their wife's arse to post on their kinky website while the rest of the Book Group was waiting for their green beans to be scanned not looking like green peppers.....or were just sitting around doing nothing. The automobile industry has no corner on laziness or high pay for less than a full day's work. |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 503
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:06 pm: | |
Goat and Cub, I do drive my car, its got 38.5, and its an 03......I live close to work and try to avoid freeways in Houston because of the horiffic traffic jams
I will continue to buy American, I am proud to be and buy American, but the cost keeps going up.
The Big 3 need to know what we the consumer is going thru....Its hard to shell out money in times like these
Also, people, I have more than once called my credit card, my bank, my tech support for Hewlitt Packard and any other agency that ships calls and customer service to India, Indonesia, and the Phillipines
I tell them point blank, that I cant understand their dialect, and that the delay caused by interference and time delay makes it hell to talk overseas
bring our jobs of customer service back , or I will look for a company that employes Americans
I am patriotic and proud, please know I am just venting my frustration.......Jane |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:10 pm: | |
quote:They will throw your ass in jail quick and never ask a question. Those are the kind of civil rights you have there.
Are they any different from the rights we have now here? |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 448
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:02 pm: | |
Crawford, Do you always sum up an entire industry by second hand knowledge?
I do what I am good at. That happens to be in skilled trades at an auto company. As I said, it is less dangerous than construction. If you haven't lived in S.E.Michigan, it is what we do here. I do not see how you get off debasing knowledgable people who add value by the work of their hands.
It is obvious you have no clue to the working conditions in an auto plant. My job is very physically demanding. Can you run a $40 million press 3 stories tall, 200 feet long by 80 feet wide, with over 150 control screens to run thousands of pumps, solenoids, and switches? Can you pull 100 lb. panels 8' by 15' out of a press with a 50,000 lb. die over your head? Do you want to tell my coworker who fell 30 feet down a scrap chute with a broken neck the job is not dangerous? Can you install tooling in a press as big as your dinner table while walking on an oily steel plate, in 98 degree weather?
DO NOT tell me my job is easy and not worth every penny I earn! Stick with what you know, not what is bottle fed ya. |
Wash_man
Member
Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:30 pm: | |
"Wash_man. the Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon, failed to mention that when you purchase a General Motors vehicle, a Chrysler vehicle, or a Ford vehicle, the PROFITS stay in the U.S.A. When you purchase a Honda, a Toyota, or whatever is made in China, the profits DO NOT STAY IN THE U.S.A. Is that simple enough? "
Buyamerican: So your beef is that the profits go back to the "home country" of the automaker? What about the thousands of tax paying people that work in the "foreign" plants here in the U.S.? Don't their jobs matter? What about thier income tax, FICA, etc. that they pay? If transferring profits across international boundaries is such a bad thing, why do the Detroit 3 import so many vehicles? Using your logic, it would be OK to send all Detroit 3 production out of the country as long as the "profit went back to Detroit". How many U.S. citizens would that technique employ? IS THAT SIMPLE ENOUGH?
Don't get me wrong, I've never owned a foreign nameplate, and I never will. I was just trying to point out that things are not always as they appear on the surface. I also would refuse to by a vehicle made by the Detroit 3 that is not built in the U.S. (Fusion, Impala, Lacrosse, Vue, Grand Prix, G8, Astra,Equinox, 300, Challenger, Charger....should I continue?) Think of all the jobs created if the production of these vehicles took place in the U.S. BTW many of the cars I just mentioned are assembled in Canada. Why aren't THEY chipping in for the loan? Canada is also home to the headquarters of one of the largest automotive suppliers, Magna. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 882
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:32 pm: | |
Janesback, I can understand your frustration over having the problems with your Buick.
I guess that every time I see a Honda or a Toyota or a Passat on a flatbed they are just taking it for a car wash because according to all the avid foreign automobile buyers, the cars are 100% defect free, (which is 100% bullshit). |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2904
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:40 pm: | |
Blueidone, ISO and QS has othing to do with how much profitability a company makes but instead focuses on quality and productivity, all which benefit a company.
Carolb, Community college over Ivy league? Surely you jest. |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2905
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:45 pm: | |
Wash_man, they are giving a loan. Try and pay attention next time.
Janesback, I never meant to sound like I think you are saying something wrong. I was just explaining how the mentailty of business in Japan is so much different than in N. America. |
Blueidone
Member
Username: Blueidone
Post Number: 435
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 6:34 pm: | |
ISO and QS hurt profitability when the costs to maintain the arbitrary standards exceed what a small manufacturer can handle. Also, there was no way to get certification without spending a lot of money, which the small companies couldn't handle. Allowable profit margins were held so low and productivity requirements so high that many companies were left with two options: get out of the automotive supplier business or close. I saw it happen to many of them in my years in the business. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 211
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:13 pm: | |
Like I mentioned before I'm not from Michigan, never been there, and have no ties to the auto industry. This is what many people think from what I have heard.
The auto industry is asking the public, the comsumer, to bail them out. Loans or not they are subsidized and expensive in this time of rare credit. The average American has no where near the benefits and wages the UAW has. People don't generally like your product. Call them stupid and wrong, but they are the comsumer.
This sentence pretty much sums up what I have heard. I asked someone what he thought of the auto bailout. He said "fck them"
The American automobile industry has pissed a lot of people off with substandard products, now we have to pay for a bailout for imcompetence and then listen to why import restrictions are good all the while you have your hands out.
How many low income or moderate income or even middle class people spend a fortune on repairs or sell their cars early just to get the nightmare off their back going broke in the process only to now have to bail out high income workers who made those substandard cars.
Calling West Coast people green wierdos or whatever, East Coast people snots, and Southerners everyname in the book is not helping. It is the governments fault for environmental regulations or gas milage restrictions, what!? Times change and Michigan and the midwest had better get with it. The rest of the country is moving on leaving behind the midwest.
Argue all you want, kicking and screaming, but people are not satisfied with american cars and do not like the attitude of the UAW and auto companies. All fine and dandy but we are forced to contend with your product and hand over money in bailouts.
Sit back and think why your market share has shrunk and think why people are opossed to a bailout. When are you going to change? |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9023
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:18 pm: | |
I think there is a lot of change. Look at Ford, building quality vehicles, saying they don't need a government bailout right now. Unfortunately, if the other two go, Ford is doomed because its suppliers will fold. They've got some good cars out, that Fusion is sharp IMO. And the F-150 is still the #1 selling vehicle in the US. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 577
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:35 pm: | |
Anyone who is against unions should take a vow never to ask their boss for a raise or for better working conditions, because that is all the union does. When you work in a small business and can negotiate these things personally with your boss, unions may seem unnecessary. But when you work at a company that employs thousands of people, this is impractical. Unions are here because they were and are needed. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 449
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:38 pm: | |
Philbert, even Toyota has bristled at states picking unattainable CAFE numbers. There should be only ONE emissions and CAFE standard.
When other countries pay for healthcare and penalize our exports with a value added tax, we allow ourselves to be at a competitive disadvantage. What about Japanese and Chinese currency manipulation? Could that make us less competitive? How can ANY of these be the Big 3's fault? In spite of these cost disadvantages, since 2001, we've done well at cost cutting and in manufacturing efficiencies.
Remember, HALF of the auto sales in America was to the Big 3. If it were ONLY the big 3 that had a dropoff in sales you might have a point. The fact is that ALL automakers are suffering, so what is causing so called good foreign and bad domestic car companies to suffer the same? THE SAME LACK OF LIQUIDITY the housing market is suffering with! |
Jeduncan
Member
Username: Jeduncan
Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:08 pm: | |
Buddy, I have never met a line worker who made even CLOSE to 80g a year without working hideous amounts of overtime. My father's best years at GM were when he was working 12 hour days, seven days a week, and even then he just cleared 80g's. He lost half his thumb, herniated 3 discs in his back and suffers hearing loss from working in that hot, loud, dirty factory for 25 years. Relative to construction it might not be as dangerous, but it's not a walk in the park like your job.
Line workers are paid well, but they don't make as much as you assume they do. Especially not the ones fortunate enough to be taken on recently. The only factory workers I know that make over 80k are the skilled tradesmen -- NOT the line workers. And even they have to work overtime (if it's even available) to make that kind of dough.
Next,
How many line workers do you know personally? I'd assume not very many. a lot of my family has fed their families with money that came from the line. Some of them are lucky enough to still have their jobs. Just because a couple of losers up in Lake Orion you "heard about" were sleeping on the job doesn't mean you have any backing debasing a whole group of people, the majority of whom display an incredible work ethic.
That's like me saying that because some lawyers have a reputation of being less than honest, that your dad and all other lawyers should have been paid only 30k a year, because nobody should have to give money to liars.
-OR-
...that there's no reason a business person should make over 20k a year when they're making their money off the sweat of grossly underpaid citizens in Latin American countries, that those bums should only make a wage relative to the backs they are standing on.
Things aren't as cut and dry as your pretentious degree has led your narrow mind to land on.
Just because it doesn't involve a suit and tie or an overpriced degree doesn't mean that the work done doesn't merit a good salary. Good paying manufacturing jobs, and yes, many UAW jobs, are what kept this country running for a long time. Do the unions need restructuring? of course they do (and so do the non-union salaried admin jobs from the top down) but there's no reason to "fire all those bums."
To see someone who is supposed to be so "educated" spout rash generalizations like "they should fire all the bums!" is a bit odd. It's an argument that would be better suited with an 8th grade 2.8 student, not an ivy league egomaniac.
(Message edited by jeduncan on December 12, 2008) |
Ltdave
Member
Username: Ltdave
Post Number: 315
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:17 pm: | |
quote:You need to have competitive salaries with German and Japanese automakers.
does that include management, supervisors and presidents/ceos? the president of toyota makes $1 million a YEAR not $22 million...
quote:If it's really so "tough and dangerous", then why is it harder to get a UAW job than it is to get into Harvard?
because everyone has been clamoring for the big 3 to cut costs and employment levels to get their productivity more inline with the japanese which chrysler has done...
quote:Are Mercedes employees in Alabama regularly being decapitated?
not now that the UAW has gotten safety regulations enacted thru OSHA...
quote:How come nobody hates management for protecting shitty managers?
we do! weve got some of the dumbest supervision in the company. my plant is a dumping ground for those that they CANT fire...
quote:Here's what I know: My father has seen auto workers sleeping IN THE FACTORY at Lake Orion.
i sleep in the factory everyday. from 11am to 1125am. that is my UNPAID lunch break...
quote:Why is the union using their dues to protect these idiots especially when the evidence is clear?
because the NLRB and federal law allows for the union representation to be sued for failure to protect these idiots...
quote:Magna
we have some guys who decided to stay with chrysler instead of their plants new owners, Magna Intl. their work rules are like this: 1 MINUTE late and you lose 1/4 DAY in pay. 5 absences in a 12 month period and youre done. its a machining plant with lots of coolant and cutting fluids in the air and pay of $15 an hour. life expectancy isnt very good...
at 2000 hours per year (40hrs/week for 50 weeks) pay would have to be $40 an hour. hourly pay for an average line worker is $27 and change. to make $80K (or is it $85K, youve increased the wages during your discourse) a person would have to work 3,035.7 hours a year. i used $28/hour and $85K. that breaks down to 60.7 hours a week (paid at straight time not time and a half) but then again the 1-1/2 for more than 40 hours is a perk EVERYONE benefits from thanks to the unions...
(Message edited by ltdave on December 12, 2008) |
Bigb23
Member
Username: Bigb23
Post Number: 2793
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:28 pm: | |
Crawford - (Tex), came in, stirred the pot, and riled everybody here. Now he'll be gone for another six months, until some other crisis/situation. This is what they LIVE for. Another drive-by troll.
He makes Cc look like a Liberal. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3886
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:01 pm: | |
Crawford, it's one thing to philosophically disagree with unionization, but your nasty ass went for the personal. Yes, you miserable T R O L L. Who the hell dropped you on your head as a baby? You've always been an arrogant ass, now you're just a nasty one.
If there is such thing as karma, or even such thing as the universe correcting itself by trying to find order amongst chaos, you and all of your family, will lose their jobs. I pray that you are broken like the GOP Senators tried to break American manufacturing.
(Message edited by lmichigan on December 12, 2008) |
Kathinozarks
Member
Username: Kathinozarks
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:04 pm: | |
I have only had US cars, GM and Ford. Great cars, no complaints. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 932
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 4:35 am: | |
Crawford:
quote:Why should a barely literate idiot make 80K a year to stand on an assembly line?
quote:if the job is really so "tough and dangerous", then why not get a different job?
besides the 'barely literate' part being nothing more than endlessly repeated bullshit, you seem to be answering your own question. Given the option, no one *wants* to do factory work. It's mind-numbing, it's repetitive, it's dangerous, it destroys your body, it's all kinds of bad things. The pay is what makes up for putting yourself through that.
If the pay wasn't there, those workers *would* go elsewhere, and the auto industry would constantly be hiring new people - and that gets to be expensive. It takes more than just a couple days to train someone to match the efficiency and knowledge of someone who has been doing the same thing for a much longer period of time. Not to mention, you have additional costs for each new employee, such as skills tests, background checks, drug tests, and the time required for 'basic' training like safety, diversity, etc. With high turnover, you'll be paying far more than that 80k for the same hours of actual work.
You question whether an autoworkers job is still truly tough and dangerous, demanding statistics to back it up, comparing it to an autoworker in 1958. So let's compare it to the car itself. A car is much safer than it was 50 years ago, doing a much better job of protecting its passengers. But even with all those improvements, they are still inherently dangerous and capable of killing you. I suppose you would also suggest that any further efforts to improve safety are pointless, since you also seem to think that the UAW's efforts in improving workplace safety are pointless.
Frankly, I seriously doubt that you, or anyone else that makes comments like these, have ever even SEEN an assembly line much less tried to work on one. You all repeat the same BS 'paid 80k to tighten a lug nut' without having any clue what it is they actually do. You probably wouldn't last a day, but for still for some reason you think your retail consulting job means you have the right to disparage others hard work.
Oh, and good luck at that Latin American retail consulting job. I would think that you would be a little more afraid for it, since with the economy about to collapse here in the US, I would be willing to bet a lot of Latin American factories will be shutting down before long, since their largest customer is the United States. I'm sure you are aware, it doesn't take long for that to start to affect retail. Being in the retail industry myself, I can say that only a fool would not be afraid of the current market conditions. And you say you work in site selection? Are you seriously saying you are involved in where a NEW store is going while carrying on this ignorant tirade? The first thing a retailer does in tough times is reduce capital expenditures - like new stores. You'll be the first to go, since they won't have any new stores to select a site for.
BuyAmerican, I appreciate your efforts, but do us one favor - back it up with facts, not internet rumors. You commented earlier regarding what Toyota and Honda did after 9/11. Toyota donated $1 million to the Red Cross and matched employee contributions, as well as other support like use of its vehicles. Honda provided matching funds and made direct contributions, that brought the donations of Honda and it's employees to nearly $1.5 million. These donations were very much in line with those of Ford and GM. (DCX went above and beyond with committing $10 million to children who lost parents in the attacks.)
No matter how much I agree with your overall position, it does neither of us any good to base the argument on fallacies and I felt the need to set the record straight. There are hundreds of good reasons to buy American automobiles, but this is just not one of them.
Also, a quick Google search revealed the following headlines (and more donations of vehicles and equipment were to be found within the articles):
American Honda Pledges $5 Million for Katrina Relief
Toyota Companies Pledge $5,000,000 to Hurricane Katrina Relief
In comparison, Ford: $3m in money and vehicles, DCX $1.1m, GM $3.8m.
Many - if not all - of these amounts included employee contributions, often matched by the company.
It may not be a play or the Fox, but...
Detroit Science Center To Receive $2 Million From Toyota
Toyota also donated $2 million to the Riverwalk, in repayment of a favor to GM for participating in one of Toyota's pet projects, a charity event in Japan, if I recall correctly.
Comparing the facts when it comes to the automakers' philanthropic endeavors only ends up in a draw. |
Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 9:29 am: | |
I drive a 1995 F-150 'technical' (Code name: Earth Killer) that has a billion forward miles on it. When (If) it dies, I'll buy another one just like it. That's the problem with American Iron; it lasts too long. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 948
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 9:32 am: | |
Speaking of the foreigns, Toyota execs have been quoted saying that an implosion of the Big 3 would be very negative for them. Unlike the Dixiecon Senators, they realize the impact it would have on the supplier network, many who do work for both, and the overall world economy, which would lead to even fewer people buying cars. The foreigns have been getting hammered on the car front too. They are just in better position in cash reserves to be able to get through this rough period. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 951
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 10:29 am: | |
"We're joined at the hip with our Detroit brethren in manufacturing," said Irv Miller, group vice president and chief spokesman at Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales subsidiary. Whatever the U.S. government proposes to keep the U.S. automakers afloat, "we support it," Miller said.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20081213/AUTO0 1/812130355 |
Fafafooey
Member
Username: Fafafooey
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
"Wash_man. the Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon, failed to mention that when you purchase a General Motors vehicle, a Chrysler vehicle, or a Ford vehicle, the PROFITS stay in the U.S.A. When you purchase a Honda, a Toyota, or whatever is made in China, the profits DO NOT STAY IN THE U.S.A. Is that simple enough?"
BuyAmerican - I have been preaching that for years yet such a simple concept seems to be very hard for some people to understand. The old adage "Follow the Money" is very apt in this scenario. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5956
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
I guess hearing automotive anecdotes from parents/grandparents makes one an expert on the subject, doesn't it?
And another thing... when discussing ones Ivy League credentials... just remember Dubya got a BA from YALE and an MBA from Harvard.  |
Boshna
Member
Username: Boshna
Post Number: 121
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:54 am: | |
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12 /10/business/economy/10leonhar dt.html?_r=1&em |
Wash_man
Member
Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:10 pm: | |
"Wash_man. the Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon, failed to mention that when you purchase a General Motors vehicle, a Chrysler vehicle, or a Ford vehicle, the PROFITS stay in the U.S.A. When you purchase a Honda, a Toyota, or whatever is made in China, the profits DO NOT STAY IN THE U.S.A. Is that simple enough?"
BuyAmerican - I have been preaching that for years yet such a simple concept seems to be very hard for some people to understand. The old adage "Follow the Money" is very apt in this scenario.
Fafafooey: Then please explain the benefits of the Big 3 building so many models outside of the U.S. Follow the money....back to Detroit. So, you're saying it would be OK if they built ALL of their models outside our borders? Follow the money back to Detroit. Double standard. |
Huggybear
Member
Username: Huggybear
Post Number: 264
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 1:34 pm: | |
quote:I hope all the real Detroters out there voice their support for their fellow Detroiters by REFUSING to spend a penny on any car produced by a UAW bum. Maybe you'd find some sympathy with the crowd that exports $25K to Indiana (and then Japan) for a Subaru and then talks in self-righteous terms about spending $5 a week for bread at Avalon because it's "local" - because only someone who can make that kind of rationalization would harbor the idea that starving a local industry (and the region that depends on it) into busting a union is a viable idea. The labor laws of this country do not allow the easy unseating of a labor union, and the social and economic price of bankruptcy (which even then might not result in the voiding of union contracts) is beyond the ability of this state to absorb.
And the only way to execute your plan is to buy cars made in other states - which means that we're blowing whatever accumulated wealth we have here right out the door. And frankly, given how a big swath of the Senate treated Michigan like it was another country this week (who cares about what happens to the "civilians" - let's just bust the unions), and given the precarious finances of the state, "Made in U.S.A." doesn't cut it anymore. If money we spend on Hondas and Mercedes is being turned into lobbying dollars to cut our throats in Michigan, screw it. Let those cars rot on the lots of Michigan dealers and let the southern factories that make them go idle.
I'm not a big fan of organized labor, but I'm even less a fan of your suggestion.
(Message edited by Huggybear on December 13, 2008) |
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