 
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3732
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 6:57 am: |    |
I just have to wonder...
What would Franklin Delano Roosevelt say about all of this? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 4495
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:30 am: | |
The collapse of GM and Chrysler is similar to the collapse of the U.S.S.R. |
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 62
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:03 am: | |
I live in Texas. Although the Big 3 have not always acted in the best interest of our country ( not as good a product -less efficient) its only fair that we give them some help just like we did other indusries. Past mistakes by auto makers are just that- the past to preserve our future we need to help now.
Bush has almost always been wrong - he should have been tougher on energy consumption BEFORE it became popular and wasting almost a trillion on Iraq - has depleted our resources so that we can't easily do what we need to.
Along with bailouts there should be limits on all corporate executive compensation. Anyone making over $2 million a year should be taxed heavily on the excess- I know it would be tough but I could sacrifice and live on that meager sum for a few years! (I'm being facetious and live on much much less) |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1221
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:07 am: | |
Listen.....
This country, this state...and this metropolitan area has been going to hell-in-handbasket for decades.
It is well past time to take control, instead of lamenting.
If you're going to be mad and/or sad - do something about it; get on the phone...get on a bus - make Washington DC hear you.
If you don't feel like taking your anger to the next level - if, for some reason you can't - then it is time for you to find other ways of dealing with the madness.
Power to the People...Right-On!
Take This Shit To The Streets - You'll feel better about yourself.
Then..........
Check out the detroityes December, 1962 Thread; you'll feel even better. |
Detroitbred
Member
Username: Detroitbred
Post Number: 187
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:12 am: | |
The thought of President Bush making a decision of this magnitude and getting it right, makes me want to throw up. |
Bobl
Member
Username: Bobl
Post Number: 257
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
Senator Shelby, with his friends......"country first"....which country?
|
Wally
Member
Username: Wally
Post Number: 536
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:27 am: | |
quote:The thought of President Bush making a decision of this magnitude and getting it right, makes me want to throw up. Why? That's similar to people who will harp on Obama no matter what good he may end up doing. |
Larryinflorida
Member
Username: Larryinflorida
Post Number: 3313
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
Shelby's a dick.
The GOP are dicks.
And any autoworkers who voted for Bush are jobless dicks.
Helluva lesson to learn about being a neocon.
Blue collar people voting for republicans.
As the bumper-sticker says, that's like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders.
Good work, nimrods. Thanks. Perhaps that hole you shot in your foot will act as a reminder as to which side you are really on here. |
Townonenorth
Member
Username: Townonenorth
Post Number: 447
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:49 am: | |
Caption that Shelby picture!
Saddam says "He's the terrorist" or 'He's a bigger asshat than I am" |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 967
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
I vote for the UAW when I purchase vehicles. I own an 08 Chevy pickup and a 03 Ford. Toyotas might last longer and have a better resale but I keep buying US vehicles anyway. Also, I refused to vote for any politician who voted for the bailout that 90% of Americans opposed. They showed whose corner they were in.
That said, change is upon us. I am not talking about whatever change politicians promise. This change is something that politicians are powerless to effect. Washington's efforts to spend our way out of this mess will fail because Americans are starting to behave the way they should have a long time ago. They have stopped spending like fools out of fear or because they are broke. Eventually, all their cars will start wearing out and many will be forced back into a showroom. This may take a few years. Meanwhile, government efforts to entice with cheap loans will fail because its like trying to control things by pushing a string. People don't want to borrow and go further into debt now.
Maybe if the government kicked in $14B there would be a temporary psychological boost but it is a delaying method based on the incorrect assumption that everyone still wants to spend, spend, spend. They don't or they can't.
Another problem is that all of the first half of the $700B has been given away to Wall Street except for $15B which, we are told, is being held in reserve to prop up the already released bank giveaways. Only the Treasury Secretary has the power to decise what to do with it. Maybe his boss, the President, could breath down his neck to release it for an auto bailout. Or maybe Obama could release some of the remaining $350B after he becomes President. Either way, the national psychology has changed and auto sales will not be a result.
NY Times on the Senate vote-
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12 /13/business/13auto.html?ref=b usiness
Senate roll call vote-
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/ 2008/12/12/2204401-senate-roll -vote-on-14b-auto-bailout
BBC 'have your say' on 'Can the US auto industry be saved'. http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/no l/thread.jspa?forumID=5800&edi tion=2&ttl=20081212155440 |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 134
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
Quote:
"Boy, times like these make me wish Coleman was back. He'd have gone to Congress and staightened out those petty MFs. The execs certainly didn't do enough to protect themselves or their workers, and I love Carl to death, but he wasn't nearly vocal enough. It seems that so many people failed us this time. Where the hell was the passion? Where was the shouting? Where are our modern day profits?"
Where is Jenny? She needs to spend more time as Governor instead of sucking up to Obama in hopes of landing a job.
How bout a cool city? |
Mikie
Member
Username: Mikie
Post Number: 168
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:22 am: | |
I just found out that I'm going to be laid off next week. Bummer  |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:29 am: | |
Vote now at cnn.com in support of the auto loan |
Detroitbred
Member
Username: Detroitbred
Post Number: 188
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:51 am: | |
Oladub, I agree with you. We are a society / country of excess in nearly everything we do. Bigger, Better, More, Faster, on and on and on. It is past the time to start reigning in the way we do things, across the board, living within our means, etc. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 2067
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:54 am: | |
Sparty, it's much more than Detroit this time. Actually, Detroit really always has been a reflection of America as a whole. What the majority of Americans find acceptable for our country was made crystal clear in New Orleans, Mobile, and now, not just Detroit, but the entire State of Michigan.
PS: I really did like that post though. What else can be said? Forgive, but don't forget? |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2889
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
Remember people, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kuntucky, Georgia et al. have many of the import companies investing there. If they can knock off the domestics they will get even more investment at the detriment of the north.
Who said the civil war was over and won? |
Steelworker
Member
Username: Steelworker
Post Number: 635
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:02 pm: | |
im sorry mikie. I might be soon. I got laid off for a day but used my seniority to get placed in a different division |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:11 pm: | |
Goat....excellent point.
Animosity building between the states; perhaps purposeful? |
Blueidone
Member
Username: Blueidone
Post Number: 432
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:13 pm: | |
And meanwhile, AIG is handing out bonuses from the bailout money....
WTF is wrong with these people???
(CBS) Insurance giant AIG was given $152 billion in bailout money by the federal government since nearly collapsing in September. Now the company is planning to take millions of that money and hand it over to employees in a program that sounds a lot like bonuses.
AIG's new CEO is only taking a single dollar for his compensation this year and the top 60 executives won't be getting bonuses. But that hasn't stopped AIG from finding a creative way to keep some of their top employees in what they're calling "retention payments," reports CBS News correspondent Priya David.
To some it seems like business-as-usual end-of-the-year bonuses.
On Wednesday, lawmakers grilled Assistant Treasury Secretary Neel Kashkari about AIG's bonus plan. Rep. Donald Manzullo, R-Ill., asked if a $3 million bonus was too much.
"It is excessive for a failing institution, yes," said Kashkari.
But so far, no one's stopping AIG from paying millions to some employees in its new retention program. The company has told 168 employees they'll receive between $92,500 and $4 million per individual if they stay with the company for one year. That angers some on Capitol Hill.
"These so-called retention payments are nothing less than bonuses," Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, D-Md., told CBS News. He sent letters to AIG, demanding details of the retention program.
"No one is indispensable, particularly when you've got tens of thousands of people being laid off from Wall Street and financial firms every day," Cummings said.
Nicholas Ashooh, AIG's senior vice president of communication, acknowledges that the perception of his company has taken a hit.
"Oh, it's terrible, it's terrible," he told CBS News.
Ashooh said the retention program does not include anyone in the firm's financial products business, the tiny arm of the company that torpedoed AIG with its high-risk, bad loans.
"We know that this is not a popular thing. A lot of people just won't accept it, but if you think about it, it's a calculated decision to keep businesses intact so that we can sell them and pay back taxpayers what we owe them," he said.
Whatever you call it, it's still money in the pocket of AIG managers.
"It's very unfortunate, but a culture of entitlement has emerged among Wall Street executives," said Peter Morici, a University of Maryland economist. "They're paid far too much money and they're trying to find ways around the rules."
Even though there are more layoffs every month, AIG says its top talent is being recruited to rival companies. In fact, the company says two of its top people just left this week, despite being offered big retention payments. AIG says it needs its best people to keep its healthy businesses profitable until it can sell them and the company plans to sell 65 percent of its businesses to repay its federal loan and get back on track.
© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. |
Larryinflorida
Member
Username: Larryinflorida
Post Number: 3316
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:19 pm: | |
>Who said the civil war was over and won?
This whole election was about South v North.
The ignorant moral conservatives that occupy the south versus the smarter, more capable inhabitants of the northern states.
And like last time, we will prevail.
For the first time in 20 years, I haven't heard a southern drawl from anyone in our upcoming cabinet.
The competency of government should skyrocket exponentially.
And the North will Rise Again! |
Warriorfan
Member
Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 788
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:27 pm: | |
quote:The state has no fallback plan (partly Democrats to blame).
Why is it always the government's fault? Don't individuals themselves have some sort of responsibility to take care of their OWN lives? It's not like the problems with the Big 3 were some big secret that was just revealed, the writing has been on the wall for YEARS and rounds of layoffs have been happening for years now. Everyone here should have been preparing for this years ago and shame on you if buried your head in the sand and hoped everything would be alright.
Stop sitting around and hoping that the government is going to save you, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Here's a radical idea, TAKE CHARGE OF YOUR OWN FUTURE. Here's an anecdote: My uncle worked on the line at Ford. He saw that things were going to get bad years ago and decided to go back to school. He took advantage of the options available (Ford's tuition assistance program), attended college AND worked full-time at Ford, got his bachelors and then his masters and now he has a plum job at a non-auto related company and has a secure financial future.
If he can do that, then anyone is capable of doing that. He had a family and he still was able to work full-time and go to school, because he has work ethic and determination. Many of his former co-workers are now probably shitting themselves because they took the path of least resistance and were hoping that the goose would keep laying those golden eggs forever when anyone with half a brain knew that wasn't going to be the case. |
Ferntruth
Member
Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 702
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:28 pm: | |
"Where is Jenny? She needs to spend more time as Governor instead of sucking up to Obama in hopes of landing a job."
She has been working hard to generate support. Appearing on local and national television shows in support of the bridge loans, etc.
I've never seen her on as much national tv as I do now.
sounds to me like you have an anti-Jenny bias to begin with, so naturally you would say she isnt doing enough. |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 136
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:36 pm: | |
Quote:
"sounds to me like you have an anti-Jenny bias to begin with, so naturally you would say she isnt doing enough"
Unlike all the anti Bush folks??? |
Dan
Member
Username: Dan
Post Number: 458
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:45 pm: | |
I was tearing up today on my drive to work, I was listening to the Gettelfinger press conference.
9 years ago I bought a Honda. It has served me well.
The day I brought my car home my mom looked at it, and cautiously walked around it, almost afraid to touch it. “It’s a beautiful car, but your Grandfather is rolling over in his grave,” she told me. Not because it was Japanese, but because it was non-union.
On my ride in I felt ashamed to drive it, but I am not. I bought the car that was right for me, and at the time the quality of the car, the fuel efficiency, and the price was hard to beat.
I hope as a result of all this turmoil the American auto industry reemerges as a new beast, a better and slender creature that will reinvigorate consumers all around the world.
My next car will be a Ford or General Motors product. If all goes well I hope to buy it in the next year or two...Let's cross our fingers, and hope for all of us.
Detroit has suffered greatly, and the region will suffer more, but I believe in this city, and I believe in the ingenuity and strength of Detroiters.
Stay calm, carry on. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
Larry,
Note too that some Southern states -- North Carolina for one, no longer can be relied on to be as backward/redneck as Georgia, Alabama etc. They say it's because more educated people are moving in. May it happen to the rest of NASCAR nation, and soon. |
Larryinflorida
Member
Username: Larryinflorida
Post Number: 3317
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 1:27 pm: | |
Yep
I am in agreement.
But the love-bond still exists between the GOP and moral conservatives. They would watch this country sink like a stone to protect their stupid non-political and non-economic beliefs, and they are still breeding like hamsters down there.
(Message edited by Larryinflorida on December 12, 2008) |
Girlygirl
Member
Username: Girlygirl
Post Number: 14
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 1:31 pm: | |
Correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't it the people from the South, that headed North to Detroit, when we had the "Big Boom" in the auto industry, manufacturing, etc., jobs were plentiful, Detroit was a thriving city and everyone wanted to be here in Michigan. My how quicky they forget. So, when they need us again to restore, rebuild etc. I hope we NEVER forget. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 1:50 pm: | |
""Why is it always the government's fault?""
Warriorfan....I hear what you're saying and - may I add that - ours is a government; by the people - for the people. Moreover, we are a nation of laws - not men.
The People need to Wake Up and Take Back the Power.
Good Lord, I do enjoy speaking in meaningless platitudes - just like our highly paid and underachieving political leadership. |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 968
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 1:56 pm: | |
Congress could close some overseas bases in places like Korea and Germany top come up with $15B to bail out the failed auto firms.
Also, trade deals could be set up like the one we have with Canada. There should be no import taxes on cars to the extent that an equal amount of domestic auto content is traded between two countries. After that, an import tax could be imposed as is the case with our trade deal with Canada. The bailout money and future bailouts for UAW pensions might be paid for with such a tax. It would also encourage more US content production for big 3 and foreign producers. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:06 pm: | |
Oladub....thank you for pointing out the future bailout of UAW pensions.
Folks, if you don't already know about the PBGC....you should mos-def read-up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P ension_Benefit_Guaranty_Corpor ation
When all is said & done...the PBGC will fall harder than anything has ever fallen; we ain't seen nothing yet. |
Bobl
Member
Username: Bobl
Post Number: 263
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:26 pm: | |
Chuckjav: You are correct. FDIC as well. The tragedy is that this is by design. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 565
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:24 pm: | |
I have given the GOP tens of thousands of dollars during my life. I will never give them another penny. In fact, with pride, I pledge my alliegence to the Democrats and in particular to the Democratic party in Alabama. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3893
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 1:57 am: | |
Please, pledge your allegiance to no party, and please do not forget that there are more than just two parties. Simply let this be a lesson that conventional politics fails all more of than not. To tie yourself to the two party system does no one any good but the leaders of each party.
I hope that for as much as people realize that the Southern GOP failed American workers, that it was the original disunity of the Democratic party on this issue that allowed the question to get from how to help American manufacturing to if they should help American manufacturing. Shelby, Corker & Co. would have faced an uphill climb in their want to destroy the UAW (and thus the Big Three) had the debate had stayed around "how" and not "if". We were failed by both parties on this one, I'm afraid. |
Ktkeller08
Member
Username: Ktkeller08
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 4:44 am: | |
So many people on here continues to be mad about the south because of the foreign auto makers or representatives down there. I don't think anyone really understands why the southern states really gave these foreign car manufacturers such incentives. Do you really think it was to ruin the Big 3?
No. All while the southern states were trying to court BMW, Mercedes, and the Japanese manufacturers, their traditional textile industry was collapsing all around them. A shadow of it's former self, the South needed something to replace the textile industry if poverty and despair wasn't to replace it. Not to mention, I think that any of the Big 3 could have gotten the same incentives had they been willing to build there.
I'm not trying to say that the Big 3 shouldn't be saved, all I'm saying is that people should be a little more informed on why some of the southern states may not be so welcome to a big 3 bailout. |
Bobl
Member
Username: Bobl
Post Number: 270
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 5:34 am: | |
If they are against subsidizing US auto makers, why have they subsidized foreign manufacturers? A little consistency would be in order. |
Thoswolfe
Member
Username: Thoswolfe
Post Number: 91
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 8:13 am: | |
Not long ago, Michigan put together an offer to subsidize/ court the new VW plant.
True, there was almost zero chance VW would consider any offer on the table from Michigan, but if they had chosen Michigan, would they have been welcomed?
Didn't Toyota get tax breaks to set up in Ann Arbor, also?
Chattanooga and State of Tennessee put together an attractive package to court Hyundai then Kia and lost both to Alabama and Georgia. Public sentiment there did not turn against those neighbor states. Chattanooga just added more to the package, and eventually 'landed' the VW plant.
Do the southern states 'court' the foreign companies? Well, any company bringing jobs. Saturn is a US company. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5018
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 8:21 am: | |
Michigan doesn't receive tax money from other states to fund those incentive packages. The incentives we give comes right out of our own pockets. That's not true of Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee or even, in recent years, Georgia and North Carolina. |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 970
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 10:30 am: | |
Whether or not other states financially entice foreign firms to locate is decided, in part, on whether it is allowed by their respective state constitutions. If a given state's powers are not enumerated to forbid such a thing, then it is not hypocritical for that state's representatives to vote against the federal government doing exactly what that state's own government has chosen to do. Even so, it is foolish to spend $200,000 and up for a job. China and India spend far less to train world class computer professionals and engineers.
Equally troubling as what Alabama chooses to do with its money is what China is doing with its money and engineers. Today, BBC had an article about a Chinese manufactured plug in that goes 80mpg. This vehicle is about to be manufactured. All the hype about the Volt and a Chinese company, BYD, no one here has ever heard of, is going to beat the Volt to main street. I shouldn't say 'not everyone' because Obama advisor Warren Buffet has already invested $230M in BYD.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/pro grammes/from_our_own_correspon dent/7779261.stm
It's ironic. While some states are bribing foreign manufacturers to compete against the big three in the US, private US money is going overseas to help foreign manufacturers compete angainst the big three. |
Exmotowner
Member
Username: Exmotowner
Post Number: 465
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
Dont get me wrong, I'm for helping the auto industry, but I also have a problem with the CEO's making a gagillion dollar a year salary, and also the uneducated auto worker walking in off the street making 30+ an hour after I've busted my ass in school for years and only make 14$ an hour. I think there should be many many stipulations to this bail out. Everyone in the country is haveing to scale back and I think the auto giant employees should have to too. I'm an ex UAW menber myself so dont think this is just an outsider looking in. I was a UAW insider not too long ago. Just my opinion. Thanks |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 141
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 11:16 am: | |
Exmowtowner, you have expressd the real world opinion of the UAW. The Senators voted against the bail out are expressing the opinions of their voters and most Americans not feeding at the trough of the UAW and big three. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5021
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 11:48 am: | |
UAW wages aren't what's killing profitability. Frankly if the UAW wages weren't what they are it would just lead to more upwards consolidation of wealth. It sure as hell isn't going to lower car prices because the market's at it's price point - profits will just be maximized for those who benefit from them - why shouldn't that include line workers who will spend their money out in the rest of the community? Why is it that people bitch about UAW wages when Wall Street wages average over $400,000? Even the Equity minimum on Broadway (no degree required) is more than typical UAW wages. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2945
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 12:21 pm: | |
Quote: "UAW wages aren't what's killing profitability."
Labor costs are staggering to any company, labor costs that are two and three times higher than the competitors, when benefits are factored in definitely effect profits.
In the last few days, You're right, it's the UAW itself. I've talked to several folks around the country in the last few days, the consensus is "Screw the UAW and Detroit". Gettlefinger has done more damage to the big 3 market share and alienate support for itself recently than anyone or thing ever has
The mindset and stereotype that the UAW worker is under-worked and overpaid exists around the country. It was bolstered by the UAW's unwillingness to cooperate in an emergency situation.
Also the people on here talking about subsidies and incentives for Asian carmakers in the south. GM and Ford got them too.
I don't think there is anyone that wants to see the big 3 go under, but the UAW is a huge wrench in the works at a time when all Americans need to come together and rally in support of the backbone of our manufacturing base. (or what's left of it) |
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