Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » State Will Fund Demolition of Illitch Owned Buildings Including Fine Arts Building « Previous Next »
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 926
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Do you hate Mr I. so much that you can't give him any credit?"

Hold on there, you said:

"Besides, at least Illitch put up his money for downtown when nobody else would go near it."

which you know is not true since it was Forbes who first invested in the Fox before Illitch had put a cent downtown. We've been around and around on this before. I'll give Illitch credit for what he's done well (the Fox) and smackdowns for what he's done wrong (demolish historic structures on the taxpayers dime).
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Detroitej72
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Username: Detroitej72

Post Number: 942
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And I'll stand corrected and say Illitch put up his money when most wouldn't go near it.:-)
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 1543
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 1:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Grand River Building looks like it's in fine shape, much better than the others. I see no reason to tear it down. None.
And I don't see what the point in razing the Fine Arts Building is unless there was a plan to do something with the land, and I haven't heard anything to say there is. So they save the facade and it stands without any supporting structure behind it for years? That makes no sense and seems incredibly unsafe.
This makes no sense in so many ways.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 558
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But even with a $7bil. endowment, they're not gonna redesign it."

That's not entirely true.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3883
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sean, could you put your address in links?

You can do that by using this code without the space:

\ link{copy the address and end it with a comma, and then give the link a name}

Otherwise, you're needlessly streching the page.
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 878
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you've got to be f'ing kidding me. another free handout to one of detroit's most successful families/companies.

i'm a realist, i recognize that almost all of those buildings should come down. however, the huge oversight here is that building on grand river was renovated less than 10 years ago. it was fully occupied with lofts on the upper floors and a handful of stores on the first floor. ilitch bought it (form kefallinos i think) and kicked everybody out. and now the DDA is giving him money to tear it down? ridiculous!
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4042
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've never seen a city or a state invest so much money in its own physical destruction.
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Raptor56
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Username: Raptor56

Post Number: 657
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

from the way back machine (2006)

Page 3
http://www.ilitchholdings.com/ Portals/0/ILITCH_HOLDINGS_TO_E XPAND_DEVELOPMENT_EFFORTS.pdf

Olympia Development has retained the architectural firm SmithGroup to conduct
feasibility studies on re-use of the Fine Arts Building, located at 44 W. Adams on Grand
Circus Park and the adjacent Adams Theatre on Elizabeth Street. “Known and respected
for their historic preservation practice,” explained Atanas Ilitch, “we wanted to get the best
minds to join with us and determine our options for this property.
“We have also met with representatives of Preservation Wayne, Detroit's oldest and
largest architectural preservation organization, to discuss the successful re-use planning
and understand precedents for similar buildings in other cities across the country. We’ve
formed a strong team and I’m confident that by working together we can find a common
ground that will serve us well and return this property to productive use.”
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Leannam1989
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Username: Leannam1989

Post Number: 136
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Didn't they tear down the Statler for the last Super Bowl, or am I wrong about that?

I don't really see the point in tearing these buildings down. They may not be the most important, but then why not leave them there? Are Super Bowl visitors going to change their minds about Detroit because a few less buildings are there?
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Bibs
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Post Number: 315
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The demolition might allow a new stadium to rise. Would no progress at all be more benefical? Demolision by neglect is occuring whether we like it or not. Collapse of the building next to Broderick tower is a great example. Archialogists are constantly unearthing historic buildings constructed during ancient times. Buildings don't last forever so quit moaning!
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 3302
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know about the argument: "These buildings are falling apart! We need to do SOMETHING so ... knock 'em down!"
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4498
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YAY More parking lots!

What a way to redevelop Illitchville.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1484
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Columbia, Cass and Grand River buildings are all perfectly fine small buildings. They're roofs are intact and they're sealed up. These are far from falling apart and not standing in the way of where the new Joe is rumored to go. Ilitch only wants to tear them down so he can turn them into a parking lot for Tigers and Lions games. However doing such a thing on your own dime doesn't make economic sense, hence why he is trying to get the taxpayers to fund his money making venture.

The Adams Theater building is too far gone. I am glad to hear they plan on preserving the facade. However, I agree with Rhymeswithrawk. I wish they had a plan in place on what to build behind it.

I'm not going to cry too much over the parking garage either. I do hope they preserve the parking sign on the Clifford Street side. That is probably the only cool facet of that building and would look great restored on a newer garage.

Like I said before subsidizing a billionaire like this when government is running in the red by hundreds of millions of dollars is preposterous. People need to be fired over this. You know there have to be shady dealings galore involved in this deal. I am surprised the dailies or the Metro Times aren't investigating this more thoroughly. Maybe they are now that Crain's has shed some light on it, but I will believe it when I see it.
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E_hemingway
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Post Number: 1485
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, they are talking about the Ilitch family when they talk about the richest 1 percent of America. He regularly makes the list of Forbes richest people in America.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/20 08/54/400list08_Michael-Ilitch _V2NC.html

http://www.forbes.com/2006/09/ 20/ent-manage_biz_06rich400_se lf_made_entrepreneurs_michael_ ilitch.html
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Goat
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Post Number: 2897
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leannam1989, no it wasn't torn down for the Superbowl. It was torn down for the potential of the site. The buildign in it's design could not be re-used.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4044
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It was torn down for the potential of the site.



Oooh, yeah! Look at all that potential!

quote:

The buildign in it's design could not be re-used.



How did you draw this conclusion?
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Kensingtony
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Username: Kensingtony

Post Number: 40
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While reading this thread the thought crossed my mind that while it might be noble and even culturally popular to save all these old buildings like the David Whitney,Broderick,Book,and Metropolitan,I don't see it why it should happen.If there's no desire to use the majority of their capacity why keep them around to just fall further into decay and hurt the image of the City even more?Agreed,it would be wonderful if businesses and residents decided to move into the downtown area.But get real,it won't happen in our lifetimes.Metro Detroit's population has been shrinking for years and the current economic climate just exacerbates the situation.There's overcapacity now so why pour money into these buildings to just sit updated but vacant?That makes no sense.Unfortunately not everything can be saved.
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Saintme
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Username: Saintme

Post Number: 305
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding the Statler that Leannam and Goat are talking about . . .

Why did they tear down the hotel, but leave that creepy white building with half a roof? If they tore down the Statler for it's land value, then why didn't they level the whole site?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 5951
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saintme... the city owned the Statler, and when they demoed it, they caused the damage of the privately owned (and leased) building next door. It's still in litigation.

Kensingtony... apparently your not aware that even while Michigan was in a recession for much of the last 8 years... that even with no growth in metro Detroit.. developers were buying these buildings, renovating them into residential space, and successfully selling/renting them for folks to live. Probably had you been on this forum for a few years, you would have realized this before you came to the conclusion that everything empty should be knocked down. Now with money so extremely tight, development has stood still. Now why should we jump the gun and start demoing, rather than mothballing until the finacial markets recover, and development can restart?

Raptor56, thanks for the way-back machine... now to ask the question... Detourdetroit... did the Ilitches actually ask for much input about the Fine Arts Building/Adams Auditorium from PW while you were involved?
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Dbc
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Post Number: 177
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great, just what downtown needs, more fucking parking lots. Look at an aerial view of all the parking lots already downtown, you'll be disgusted.

What's even more disgusting is that public funds will be used. The city and state are broke, yet they're going to pay to make a billionaire richer. Brilliant.

I get so discouraged by the incessant and insipid myopia displayed by the city leaders. I'm not familiar with any of the buildings other than the Fine Arts, but it is unfathomable how these clowns continue to believe parking lots are preferable to PROPERLY SECURED vacant buildings. Parking lots are ugly as shit and completely detract from the sense of density indicative of vibrant urban areas. At least the vacant buildings have a chance of eventual rehab that would provide the historic density other cities have been intelligent enough to realize attracts people. If the city actually made absentee landlords like Ilitch accountable concerning enforcement, this demolition by neglect-yet another surface parking lot bullshit wouldn't happen so frequently. Again, I'll take a vacant, properly-secured historic structure over a surface lot - even a "landscaped" one - any day of the goddamned week.

Last, I can't wait to see the quality of Ilitch's "facade stabilization." If his upkeep of Tiger Stadium is any indication, don't be shocked if there's some sort of mishap and the whole thing comes crashing down one day.
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Izzyindetroit
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Username: Izzyindetroit

Post Number: 159
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"What's even more disgusting is that public funds will be used. The city and state are broke, yet they're going to pay to make a billionaire richer. Brilliant."

There is always the route I mentioned a week ago.

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/163896.html?1228406048
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1kielsondrive
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Username: 1kielsondrive

Post Number: 681
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the rich get richer!
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 316
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Building don't last forever. Achialogists are constantly unearthing the foundations of buildings constructed during ancient times. Demolision by negelect is occuring in the central business district whether we like it or not. The collapse of a building adjacent to the Broderick is a great example. Get over it. Chill! Quit moaning.
There is a slim chance that a stadium or mall might rise in this area; built with private funds. Enjoy the speculation of what will rise next and dream a little; especially during these challenging times.
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Mcwalbucksnfitch
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Username: Mcwalbucksnfitch

Post Number: 81
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm just happy the UA wasn't on this list.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4051
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Building don't last forever. Achialogists are constantly unearthing the foundations of buildings constructed during ancient times.



You're comparing structures thousands of years in age to buildings less than 100 years old. Please tell me you're not serious.

The fall of the Roman Empire is one thing--spending millions on demolition in Detroit is quite another.
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1kielsondrive
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Username: 1kielsondrive

Post Number: 688
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Bibs, I'm not complaining about the buildings being demolished, I'm complaining about the Illitch's unlimited tap on our tax dollars. They're the number one recipient of Detroit's tax largesse. Mcwal, I agree. As bad as the UA is, I'm too am happy it wasn't on the list.
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 2918
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

will beals boy get he demo contract or is that to close to patronizing contracts.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 5953
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ilitch did spend money to have a new roof put onto the UA Building and Theatre. I doubt that he would have done that had Beale not said that they were restorable.

Granted, that's no guarantee, but it is a hopeful sign...
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Huggybear
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The fall of the Roman Empire is one thing--spending millions on demolition in Detroit is quite another.

Actually, it's a lot closer than you think. In the wake of exurbanization when things got bad, Roman structures were extensively stripped and "recycled" into other things, primarily churches. This was done with the consent, if not encouragement, of the civil state - and it took only a couple of hundred years to achieve once it got rolling. There was also some burning of marble to get fertilizer to support "urban farming."

The delapidated cement structures were then left to rot, and that is what we see as the ruins today. A weird etymological note on the word "delapidate" is that it is from the Renaissance Latin "delapidatus," or "de-stoned," (probably more accurately, de-marbled, since the strippers took the facings) and the first instances of that word are roughly contemporaneous with the building of St. Peter's basilica in the 16th century. The building of that church was a major impetus behind the stripping of Rome's ancient structures. The bronze doors, for example, were from the (otherwise architecturally unimpressive) Senate.

And you thought scrapping was invented in the past 20 years...
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Gistok
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huggybear, how true!

The number of Roman ruins used as building materials for St. Peters Basilica in the 16th century was truly heart wrenching.

They borrowed that page from the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs... one Pharoah would loot and strip the buildings of previous Pharoahs to build their own monuments and temples.

The fact that the 3 pyramids of Giza are missing most of their outer casing stone is no coincidence...
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Burnsie
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

True, we'll end up with parking lots on the sites. But hey, maybe they'll be lighted and landscaped!
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Gistok
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Post Number: 5957
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... and please let there be some decorative sidewalks... I just love decorative sidewalks... :-(

(That was the reason given why they wanted to tear down the Tudor style Women's Exchange Building facing east GCP, but a court order stopped that 10 years ago.)

(Message edited by Gistok on December 13, 2008)
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Soulhawk
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Post Number: 140
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I used to live in 2030 Grand River. It will be a sad day for me when it is gone. The building had it's problems, but I have many great memories of the time I spent there. Illitch is killing and saving the city. The hotels, Tiger stadium, and now this. When will it end?
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I grabbed a bunch of photos of the soon to be demolished buildings this afternoon. They all look to be in pretty good shape. The Fine Arts sounds like it's the only one that needs to come down. Add me to the list of people concerned about the facade. They better put something up behind it very soon. I have visions of it just sitting there with bracings until it collapses on its own.

http://fadeddetroit.blogspot.c om/2008/12/olympia-development -to-bring-new.html
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Gistok
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the pics Leland!

Besides the Fine Arts Buidling, the 2030 Grand River Building is also very attractive. Sad to see that one go...
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WTF...why is 2030 GR coming down? This f-ing state...subsidizing the removal of THAT building. Galling. Thanks for the photos, Leland.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 2:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone know the history behind 145 Elizabeth? When was it built, and was it originally built as a parking garage? Who designed it (looks like a Kahn job)? I've always been interested in unconventional structures and this is certainly one of them.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 2:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't 2030 just renovated right before the Super Bowl? I swear I can remember watching them install new windows during a walk.
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Novine
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 3:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone mentioned the past history of 2030. I found this on an earlier DY thread:

Based on public documents recorded 2/28/07 with Wayne County Register of Deeds; one Dennis Keffalinos on 1/05/07 signed over title of property located at 2030 Grand River Ave. W. (Elizabeth Street Lofts) to "West Grand River Lofts LLC" (an entity incorporated on 1/03/07 and 100% controlled by the Ilitch Family's Olympia Development). Ilitch paid Keffalinos $1.73 million for the 0.17 acre lot and the 22,689 square foot "lofts" building.

WHY is this building being demolished?
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Novine
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 3:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone's being keeping tabs on the Illitches.

http://www.theverifiabletruth. com/

http://www.theverifiabletruth. com/2007/05/did-ilitch-pay-173 -million-for.html
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Eastsidedame
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 4:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Progress, smogress. Can we just roll over and let them do this to our heritage? We CAN have both, you know. Europe does it. Really, Detroit. How much pushing around are you going to take?

The goverment has systematically eliminated manufacturing from our GNP, and they're about to axe a big one. Superdelegates pick our President. And now, politicians from Toyota and Honda states are ready to deep six you.

This is just plain WRONG! There should be a march on city hall. The Feds need to check out Michigan, as long as they're in Illinois. I know it's cold now, but really, this stinks something fierce.

Say what you want about Mitt Romney, but when he turned to Gov.Huckabee and said, "But it's not YOUR money, Mike.", did anyone else hear that? Evidently, not.
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Royce
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2030 is one of those rare corner buildings (entrance at the corner). It deserves a better fate than what will happen. It looks like it's in relatively good shape. How many parking spots will come from its demolition? How many parking spots justify its demolition?

BTW, what's up with Iliitch and surface parking lots? Why hasn't he built more parking structures? It would have been so much more asthetically pleasing to the Harmonie Park area if Ilitch had built a parking structure on the Madison-Lennox site than a fenced in surface parking lot. Is he just that cheap or what?
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Russix
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Post Number: 158
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The tax rate on surface parking lots should be assessed for the highest density building that zoning will allow in a new "core urban space" designated area. If so much parking is needed for these stadiums, why wasn't this mandated that their capacity be contained within structures. Look out at the fall-out from this, total urban destruction of the northwest and and northeast parts of downtown.
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Verifiable
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Post Number: 87
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a reminder, we've created a public map on live.com that reveals/details approximately 160 parcels owned or controlled by various Ilitch enterprises in the greater Foxtown are and surrounding MotorCity Casino. It should be updated but if you find anything that needs to be revised, please let me know.

In addition to Olympia Development and Olympia Entertainment, other Ilitch enterprises owning property in greater Foxtown include Elizabeth Street Properties LLC, W. Grand River Lofts, and Moose Building LLC. John M. Kotlar, VP Tax Affairs at Ilitch Holdings, Inc. is also recorded at DL&EG as contact for those business entities among others.

There's a more comprehensive list of entities controlled by Ilitch and/or Michael J. Malik, Sr., Ilitch casino and real estate development partner, @TVT. Malik's also the front man for several other controversial development projects they have been behind including an Indian casino proposal in Port Huron (U.S. House of Represenatives blocked that project in June) and development of a 300+ slip marina/residential enclave on Harsens Island (in August State agencies denied them various permits required for marina development).
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Verifiable
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also developed a separate map at live.com highlighting the properties that would be included in this newest round of taxpayer funded demolition.
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Busterwmu
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You all speak the truth on the 2030 W. Grand River building. The others do not have the architectural significance this one appears to.

Gotta love the ratty-ass looking chain link fences surrounding the current parking lots... now we'll get some more of them.

They should preserve that cool parking garage sign and put it in place of that one on Woodward near 1001, in place of that flourescent red PARK sign that is up there now. The old one has some class and doesn't tint lower Woodward red at night.
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W_chicago
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a hard time seeing ANYTHING good the GANGSTER Illiches have done. They are nothing but fucking pieces of shit capitalist cronies and crooks. Fuck em to hell, honestly.

The Detroit frees itself from the scum of the earth like Marian and Mike Illich, is the day the destruction of one of the greatest cities in North America ends.
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W_chicago
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Post Number: 70
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SCUM OF THE EARTH

nothing less
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4054
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I have a hard time seeing ANYTHING good the GANGSTER Illiches have done. They are nothing but fucking pieces of shit capitalist cronies and crooks. Fuck em to hell, honestly.



Really, that's not even fair. You can't speak ill of the Ilitches without implicating their enablers, the State of Michigan, City of Detroit, DEGC, and Downtown Demolition Authority.
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 2927
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ exactly
It's like the auto companies singing on to union contracts.
They are using the system to their advantage. I cannot blame them for that. Why not blame the Guvmnt for letting them take advantage of money available.
Is it because our tax sucking politicians want to suck up to people with money?
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1275
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

@Royce - reason is that suburbanites (most of the Illitch clientele) prefer surface lots. The last six months have taught me that in spades. They are crucial to increase business, and pattern after pattern I've studied shows that people (from city neighborhoods and suburbanites) avoid garages if at all possible.

It is not just the number of spaces, but the perception of ample parking. This is a cultural issue with our region and cannot be fixed by just building more garages and hasn't been fixed; I agree, if it were to be a structure, I think it would be better and help everybody.

It seems as if the Illitches and the city are moving very quickly to acquiescing to that culture; they know what's going on; and I honestly can't say if they're right or wrong in doing this.

Is it wrong to do things that you know create new jobs that Detroiters can do for people who need them? Nothing in life is black or white; it's all gray. The Illitches and their suppliers are some of the largest non-automotive employers of Detroiters in the city. Of course the city is going to listen.

So although I am not a fan of some of how they've played things (Madison Lenox in particular), you cannot blame them from a business perspective for taking the opportunities presented to them. If you just ask for stuff, it's amazing how many doors open.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 2095
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^True, true, true about the surface lots.

Dear God, it took us fifteen minutes to figure out the dang Millender Center Garage (despite the signs, you can't actually get into the apartment building from the garage unless you already live there). So, we get our ticket validated, and the security guard still tried to charge us ten dollars for a half hour of parking. They said they couldn't see the validation stamp. My fiancee and her friend looked at their parking garage as a "strike" against them (their reasoning was that it would be way to confusing for guests). They insisted we park on the street and use the pay meter instead of the free garages at our other appointments.

It seems that surface lots are also looked at as safer than parking garages. Parking meters were also perfectly fine. Unfortunately, most have a time limit of one or two hours. It used to be where these spots were usable by residents overnight and on the weekends, because fares were not enforced during those times (how it should be, and is in most other cities). That would mean that you could park when you weren't at work. But, for some reason Detroit decided do things backwards recently, and started to collect and issue tickets on Saturdays and certain random evenings during big events (sometimes without notice).

The parking problem has gotten horrible because of this. Before that change, parking garage rates at apartment buildings were around $20-$40 a month (on average). Many buildings had totally free parking. Since that change, almost every building is right around $100 a month. In other areas, buildings have been demolished for additional parking surface lots.

So, for the people who really don't like garages, street parking isn't even an option anymore. Bring on the surface lots, I guess.

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on December 14, 2008)
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Dbc
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Username: Dbc

Post Number: 179
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I almost always use the Compuware garage. It's centrally-located, costs only $5, has never caused me even a sniff of a problem concerning availability or payment, and even has a police mini-station in it if that's a concern for anyone.

I refuse to give one cent to any of those surface lot vultures.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 5965
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry folks, but I disagree big time here...

Are you saying that folks who patronize the casinos don't mind parking structures, but those that patronize sporting and concert events do mind parking structures?

LOL... how does that explain that among the patrons downtown are Opera fans (generally older, more conservative, and more afraid of Detroit)... they don't seem to be bothered by parking in the Opera House Garage?

That's almost like admitting that sports fans are wussies by comparison...
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4377
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only good thing about this surface-parking demand is that it frees up space for me and other cheap/smart people. They're so obsessed with finding close surface parking that they drive right past street spots. Last spring I was parking two blocks from CoPa on a day when the Wings and Tigers were playing simulataneously and downtown was just generally party-like.

People and their spending habits are absurd.

And surface parking is the most inefficient land use possible.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 5966
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^
I agree!!
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J_to_the_jeremy
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Username: J_to_the_jeremy

Post Number: 150
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact that people don't park on the street routinely makes me laugh. I've never had a problem parking downtown, and I can count the times i've paid for a lot or garage on one hand.

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