 
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 1:44 pm: |    |
What is this area like? Jefferson seems to be a main artery is it congested? There seems to be some nice buildings on it. Is there much difference between the 5000 blk area and 15,000 further east? Is the air quality better than the West Side? |
Newport1128
Member
Username: Newport1128
Post Number: 245
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:39 pm: | |
Picture Berlin in May, 1945. The farther east you go, the worse it gets, until you reach Grosse Pointe Park. Not a place where you'd want your car to break down, either in daylight or after dark. Not a place you'd want your wife, sister, mother or girlfriend driving through. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 445
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:55 pm: | |
My opinion is different than what I feel is Newport's exaggerated opinion. (Berlin 1945?)
I've driven through there plenty of times, most often alone, and have never had a problem. I had a flat tire in that vicinity and patiently waited for AAA to come. There was no problem, nor was I afraid. It's not a great neighborhood, but certainly not the way Newport paints it.
I don't know enough about air quality to give a good opinion, but my guess is that anything closer to the incinerator has poorer air quality. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 880
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:28 pm: | |
Ignore Newport's gross exagerations.
5000-15000 East Jefferson covers many different neighborhoods and many different uses. One cannot really give a very useful but brief description. That stretch has luxury apartments, strip malls, groceries, light industry, auto assembly plant, parks, liquor stores, and vacant eyesores. The street is wide, too wide, over that entire length. It makes sidewalk storefront retail and pedestrian activity almost impossible. As for air quality, I think that it's not too good because it's common knowledge that the bad air over there caused Newport's family to move. |
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:35 pm: | |
Really Berlin 1945-lol Did they have crime? All except the top 25 Nazis who had the show trials were upon saying "I really hate Russia" were given a good job by the US, so not sure there was widespread unemployment. Housing in decent shape was in high demand, but I will admit the potholes were a little bit deeper in Berlin ( probably until 1946). Downtown lady has a different opinion.
Is the traffic bad? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2718
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:42 pm: | |
Really! Indian Village is over there, and those nice condos at Harbortown, the Jeffersonian, how can it be all that bad? Belle Isle is there, and lots and lots of lofts and development. The Village housing is being promoted, which encompasses Jefferson from Belle Isle east. We have a co-op over there, for sale, which has been completely safe. Traffic is not too bad except during the boat races and Grand Prix maybe. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3729
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:43 pm: | |
^The traffic isn't that bad, only during rush hour (moderate traffic volume & congestion) because Grosse Pointers use that route in & out of downtown Detroit.
However, the traffic lights very other block can get annoying. You must time them perfectly or you're screwed. |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4277
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 6:19 pm: | |
that still a problem..heck in the seventies we used to play the game of timing the lights of Jefferson...I remember after a driving lesson on the Isle, my dad made the mistake of letting me drive Jefferson home during rush hour...when we got home he promptly told my mom she would be driving iwth me for the future...and paybacked by taking my sister out to learn to drive..... |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 450
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 7:04 pm: | |
Lights were never a problem on my bike as there is so much visibility that I could roll through intersections and get all the way from GPP to downtown without stopping, but they sure were annoying in a car unless you were going in the right direction at the right time of day. I think it was going east in the later afternoon, but I can't remember. I'd occasionally take it home from work. Traffic is cake, even during rush hour when it is only moderate. |
Newport1128
Member
Username: Newport1128
Post Number: 246
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 7:12 pm: | |
My opinion stands. I dare any of the above posters to try the following: At about 11p.m. on a Friday of Saturday night, park your car along the curb anywhere between St. Jean and Alter Road, turn on the emergency flashers, sit there for 15 minutes, and see how safe you feel. For those not brave enough, try driving along the same area in broad daylight and look down the side streets. How many vacant lots and burned out houses do you see? How many vacant lots and boarded up buildings along Jefferson? No matter how many "luxury apartments" there might be closer to downtown, this is not a safe area. As for Indian Village, yes, there are some nice old houses, but how far can you walk from your front door and feel safe? |
Sumas
Member
Username: Sumas
Post Number: 412
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 7:23 pm: | |
Years ago, I used to play a game driving home up Jefferson. Could I make it all the way without catching a light? I was pretty good at it. Catch the 1st green light then either drive 32MPH or 38MPH. Then they changed the timing on them. The two lights in front of Riverview are the most annoying. I am always caught by one or both. Yesterday I managed to get thru both. I think it was a personal first. |
Bobl
Member
Username: Bobl
Post Number: 254
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 8:24 pm: | |
Newport: You have a point. An out of town visitor made the same observation when I drove him down Jefferson from St Clair Shores to downtown. His exact quote, a few blocks past Alter: "Who turned on the time machine? We're looking at bombed out East Berlin in the early fifties!" |
Softailrider
Member
Username: Softailrider
Post Number: 239
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 8:34 pm: | |
In that entire area, driving east for miles. There isn't one major supermarket , not a decent place to eat ( coney islands and Elmo's doesn't count). Crime is very bad , police and EMS response is spotty at best. To me , not at all a livable area. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 446
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 9:34 pm: | |
quote:At about 11p.m. on a Friday of Saturday night, park your car along the curb anywhere between St. Jean and Alter Road, turn on the emergency flashers, sit there for 15 minutes, and see how safe you feel.
The same circumstances could also feel unsafe on Woodward in Bloomfield Hills, so what does that prove? |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 132
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:14 pm: | |
Downtown_lady,
I really hope you aren't trying to compare Bloomfield Hills to those East Jefferson areas? Look, almost everyone on here supports the city and fights against untrue negative perceptions but ignoring reality doesn't do anyone any good. Yes, given the right set of circumstances I might feel unsafe in a police parking lot but that doesn't mean they're not generally safe places. This area truly is unsafe at night, for both the people who live in it and those from outside it. I feel perfectly safe driving through the area at night but I wouldn't stop in it.
(Message edited by sparty06 on December 11, 2008) |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:18 pm: | |
Ocean2026 - take a trip there and check it out, you will love it. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 448
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:47 pm: | |
No, Sparty, I'm not by any means comparing the two areas or ignoring reality. I've lived in Detroit my whole life, and I've worked in Bloomfield Hills, so I know both areas well.
What I meant is exactly what I said, that the same set of circumstances could be frightening in either neighborhood, so that does not prove Newport's point.
Regardless, I do not feel unsafe driving through that area alone at night. Newport's original post that it is unsafe for a female to drive through even during the day is ridiculous. Maybe some people scare more easily than others -- I just don't happen to be one of them. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4365
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:55 pm: | |
"What is this area like?..."
Strange. Ugly and beautiful at once. Changes by the block. Like the rest of Detroit, really. You'll see a lot of poorly-used land (vacant lots on the waterfront, suburban subdivisions, and brake-repair shops in empty fields, e.g.), you'll see vestiges of old urbanity, and the suburbanization of the city. It's busy day and evening and quiet late at night (like most places?-- I don't understand Newport's point). There aren't any clubs or late night spots along Jefferson. Jefferson does have several landmarks, like Waterworks Park, Pewabic Pottery, Jefferson Ave. Presbyterian, multiple historic apartment complexes...
I never visited postwar Berlin, but that it is not. But if you check out Kercheval from Conner to Alter, you'll see one of the most surreal post-urban landscapes anywhere. You'll wonder if you're really in the United States. You'll shed a tear for our sad culture which has allowed this scene to materialize.
"Is the air quality better than the westside?..."
Well with a couple exceptions, most heavy industry here has closed up. This area of town is downwind of SW Detroit and it's factories. If that wind blows, the air is average/poor. If the wind reverses, you get some beautiful lake-fresh air.
Please visit. Stop by Pewabic. Go all the way to Grosse Pointe. Don't be scared. It's never worth it. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2723
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:03 pm: | |
I don't believe it is unsafe, but of course, you do have to pay attention. A person who posts here was mugged at his own front door not far east of Belle Isle off Jefferson. I have to go to that same area frequently to look after my mom's place and have never felt unsafe day or night in the vicinity.
Also, there are several supermarkets in the area. Harbortown Market is one, and there is another I forget the name of a mile further east. If you go up to Lafayette, there is another one nearby. And of course, you aren't that far from Eastern Market. |
Detroitej72
Member
Username: Detroitej72
Post Number: 933
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:21 pm: | |
Newport, I'm going to take a wild guess and say you are angry about the area not looking like it used to when you lived there.
Now, while not the greatest stretch, I lived at Alter and Jefferson from 2003-2005 with two buddies and it was ok.
I would walk down to the liquor store at Chalmers and Jefferson on the nights we were drinking to buy more beer.(didn't want to drive drunk!)
I never had any problems unless you count the pan handlers. Detroit's finest even patroled Jefferson on a regular basis, sometimes stopping drunks kids from Grosse Pointe.
(Message edited by detroitej72 on December 12, 2008) |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 1619
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:29 pm: | |
Hey quit bagging on my neighborhood. I live on the 8000 block of Jefferson. It's a great neighborhood.
Indian Village is directly across the street from me. I have a great view of Belle Isle out my 12th floor apartment window. There is a grocery store 2 blocks east of me. I've got a Mcdonald's and Wendy's within walking distance. There are a handful of upscale resturants in the area. There are multiple dry cleaners and even an Ice cream Shop.
I walked to the Grand Prix and watched the Hydroplane races from the roof of my building. I rode my Bicycle to the Red Bull Airplace races and the Fireworks.
These are probably Detroits most complete neighborhoods. The East side neighborhoods are filled with Detroit's Elite. There are many doctors, lawyers, athletes and politicians living here. |
Eastsideal
Member
Username: Eastsideal
Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:55 pm: | |
Ndavies is right and Newport, Softtail and others here who are fear-mongering are, frankly, idiots. Unless one considers the entire city of Detroit unsafe and beyond the pale (and there are those who do), much of the area along E. Jefferson is the nicest part of the entire east side, and one of the better places in the city. Around the 8000 blocks sit Indian Village and the West Village, 2 of the best neighborhoods in the entire city. Also in that area are an entire row of luxury apartment buildings along the river - both rentals and condos - including some of the most expensive residences in the city.
If they think this area is too horrifying to drive through, I'd like to know where in the city they think is better. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 686
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:55 pm: | |
I have traversed that span of Jefferson my entire life. I grew up at the Boat Club. A very close family member had their funeral at Presbyterian. I used to eat at Alcupalco's with my Mom almost weekly. Worked at the Roostertail and dined at Sinbads. Bought bait from Moe's and Coney's from Joe's....... and O'nasty's. Spent many nights at Bayview and many days at Garwood. Angel Park is a great place to fart around if you're young. Harbor Island is a nice little pocket of a community.
City Arena has good ice to play hockey, and during the season, the Wings fly through there every now and then for an off-campus practice. Lafayette is a great second route if you don't like lights. That's where people go to disregard traffic laws and yellow lights. Not even a baby carriage guarantees you save crossing in the back brushes of Laffayette.
For the communities that are not gated, like IV, the deterioration of the monolithic homes is there, because it costs so much to maintain them. Most are in good shape, but IV is not a gimme anymore. Greystone, the highrises (shoreline east, etc.) are not bad. On a happy note, many of those liquor stores along Jefferson enabled my drinking habits.... god bless them. So did Andrews, Atwater and that other pub on Jos Campeau. Andrews is a great place to grab a wings bus btw.
It was pretty wild to see that one liquor store burn down over there near Dickerson. It had been there forever. I wonder if there was foul play?
On the riverside along Jefferson, the land is pretty much used for a purpose. Lot's of housing until Connor, then all industry...... or hollowed industry. West of Jefferson along there, no so much. Hookers, dive bars and vacant lots. Many blocks are missing about 95% of the original houses. It is so peculiar and mesmerizing. You almost want to drive through the streets and see every one, although you don't.
All in all, the closer you get to Detroit, the more infrastructure you will find and fewer depleted lots.
BTW----- what area does 5000 - 15000 Jefferson cover? Streetwise? |
Tkierpiec
Member
Username: Tkierpiec
Post Number: 153
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:06 am: | |
I suppose if you are out on the street after dark, acting the fool, you might be unsafe. That can pretty much apply to anywhere, though. I must be too damn naive but I drive all over this city, day & night, and never really feel like I am in danger. Including Jefferson. And I'm a woman, by the way. Some people see blight and immediately fear for their lives and I'm not really exaggerating. As long as you are sensible and aware, what's the problem? |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 449
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:11 am: | |
^^^ I agree 100%
"some people see blight and immediately fear for their lives" -- so true |
Softailrider
Member
Username: Softailrider
Post Number: 240
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:58 am: | |
Forgot about Sinbads and the nice apartments on the south side (water side) of Jefferson . Also , I'm not afraid to drive through ANY part of the city, I do every day of the week. I grew up in the city (Littlefield , between Vassar and St. Martins) and still work there. I know Detroit very well. However, when I'm done working I'm happy to come home to my modest house in the burbs where I get a bit more services for my tax dollar (like actual EMS and police response) |
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:50 am: | |
Tkshreve as there is no 5000 east Jeff, Im talking roughly the area from Chene to past Outer Drive ( Grosse Point).
Although opinions on this area are mixed (and of course the area isn't all the same)they still have buildings with high prices compared to the rest of detroit.
For example 8469 is the Book Mansion on the north side of the street. The back has been broken into and copper removed -wall damage etc yet it still lists for $490k - other nicer mansions on Jefferson list for much more. There already has been a thread "Another old Mansion" on the 530 Parkview bldg near Jefferson which many people thought was way over priced.
NDavies lives near both.
If Detroit ever rebounds - would this area be one more likely to benefit? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4369
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:31 am: | |
Yes. Comparable neighborhoods in other cities with healthy economies have sky-high values. Imagine getting a big backyard, a 3000-12000 sf house, in a spacious and beautiful neighborhood, in a booming city, or any city. I'm not saying that Indian/West Village are unrivaled, but they are amazing. I neglected to laud them in my first post. In my estimation they're probably doing better (in terms of % of renovated, well-kept homes) than they have in a long time. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 690
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 2:02 pm: | |
quote:
If Detroit ever rebounds - would this area be one more likely to benefit?
Imagine the entire far east side area of vacant blocks becoming a rebound from the Grosse Pointes. A whole gaggle of re-gentrification. There is plenty of vacant land space already demolished over there with which you could do so much. Brings up the build vs. renovate debate however, and I'm not going there.
Curious as to how hard those remaining residents have to cling onto their homes when they are the last or near last house standing on the block. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4370
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:05 pm: | |
Well there is/was the whole Far East Side master plan, which laid out the new plans for that 80-90% empty area from Conner to Alter. It was developed over four years ago when it was not entirely certain that this region was headed towards a major downsizing. It called for a pleasant mix of new single family homes with traditional styles, and some nice higher density stuff including some apartment buildings. Now that it's clear that this region will be in negative growth mode for the foreseeable future, there's not going to be much happening there. I hope that that master plan stays on the table, though. It was a very good plan. |
Newport1128
Member
Username: Newport1128
Post Number: 247
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 7:02 pm: | |
Ocean 206, you've heard a lot of diferent viewpoints on this area. Let us know what you think when you finally come for a visit. Just curious, where do you live now? |
Bibs
Member
Username: Bibs
Post Number: 317
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:33 pm: | |
Parody Alert: I dare any of the above posters to try the following: At about 11p.m. on a Friday of Saturday night, park your car along a rural road in Northerm Michigan, turn on the emergency flashers, sit there for 15 minutes, and see how safe you feel. For those not brave enough, try driving along the same area in broad daylight and look down these unpaved roads. How many vacant lots, abandoned trailers do you see? How many abandoned barns are along those rural roads? No matter how many double wide luxury trailers there are in Bad Axe, MI.. it's not a safe area. As for Port Hope, yes, there are some nice old houses, but how far can you walk from your front door and feel safe? |
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:51 pm: | |
I live in Rockport near Corpus Christi and I love it no state income tax no winter and cheap real estate taxes. Hardly any crime no armed robberies or murders outside of people settling scores.
On the other hand no great buildings like Detroit and hot summers so .. maybe a summer home next year. I like contrast in my life and Detroit and Rockport couldnt be more different! |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4371
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:05 pm: | |
Detroit just has an above average amount of people settling scores, that's all.
but really, come on up and visit. seeing some of these landscapes we've been describing will really shock you, but you'll see alot of good stuff too.
It's amazing how many people from far-off places becomes interested in Detroit using this site. Kudos to you, Ocean, for not writing Detroit off. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2914
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:18 pm: | |
what is your point, are you trying to determine what is a good real estate investment? are you picking brains, do you have some motive or what? |
Hamtragedy
Member
Username: Hamtragedy
Post Number: 365
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 1:52 am: | |
5000 block is roughly Chene. Jeffersonian is 8000, over by Berry Subdivision. Pass Waterworks "Park" (fenced in my entire life) to the Chrysler Plant. That neighborhood is gone. I lived on Bewick in the early 70's and it was no picnic then, but at least there were houses. From Cadillac to St Jean, there was once a neighborhood of mostly brick, single family homes, some Victorian, some Mission, mostly early Craftsman. There are some remnants. The copper roof of the YMCA disappeared 5 years ago this month.
When the Chrysler Jefferson North plant was rebuilt, another entire neighborhood to bulldozed. Then they closed the THREE east-west arteries (Kerchval, Vernor, and Charlevoix) which cut off the neighborhood due east of the existing plant, all the way to Alter. That neighborhood was left to fend for itself, and lost, horribly. If you drive thru those first few blocks of GP north of Jefferson, along those three mentioned east-west arteries you will see that same neighborhood...cute bungalows and two story (two family) brick homes, stacked one on top of the next.. that existed a mere 30 years ago a half mile west.
South of Jefferson east of Connor is gone as well, or soon to be. That doesn't count the newer cookie cutter homes closer to the river. Same cookie cutter homes near Dickerson/Lenox.
15000 Block are the Canals, south of Jefferson. Nice neighborhood once you drive past the rif-raf closer to Jefferson. It's hanging by a thread.
Berlin 1945? Not that old, and never been to Berlin. Newport hits alot of it though. I work on houses all over town, that stretch of Jefferson included, and drive it frequently. From Cadillac Blvd east, the only neighborhood resembling the neighborhood from merely 30 years ago is close to the canals. The rest of it is gone. |
French777
Member
Username: French777
Post Number: 622
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 7:28 am: | |
Why do people keep saying "IF " it rebounds! It is definitely headed in the right Direction its Not "IF" its "WHEN" and not even so much When. . . it is always improving |
Newport1128
Member
Username: Newport1128
Post Number: 249
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:23 pm: | |
Ocean 2026, here's a way to "visit" the area that should take very little time and cost you nothing. Try going to the MapQuest or Google Earth websites. enter "14900 E. Jefferson, Detroit, MI 48215". Then click on "aerial view". This will place you at Jefferson and Alter Road, the eastern boundary of Detroit, on the border with Grosse Pointe Park. Scan westward (to the left) along Jefferson, and go up and down some of the streets that intersect it. Notice a lot of space between the houses on most blocks? No, those aren't just large building lots. There were once houses there, built on mostly 40-foot lots. Those houses are gone. Now pan east again, into Grosse Pointe Park. The houses are built close together, like they once were in Detroit. The aerial view of the Detroit neighborhood does not allow you to see the fronts of the buildings along Jefferson, or to see the fronts of the houses, but many of them are unoccupied and boarded-up. Is this an area ripe for re-development, or just another blighted slum? I guess that depends on your point of view. The only other thing I can suggest is to come and see it for yourself. |