 
Flanders_field
Member
Username: Flanders_field
Post Number: 445
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 5:00 pm: |    |
I blame the US' liberal trade policies over the past 50 years for the economic predicament we now find ourselves in.
The global economy largely exists due to allowing many foreign manufactured goods and services to flood the US, tariff-free, even when some of the exporting nations refused to allow the US to have the same degree of trade freedoms within their own country.
So we still have a high cost of living here in the US, but the workers should earn wages on a global scale that only exists because the US allows multinational companies to exploit us?
No Cuban commie manufactured cigars allowed here, but plenty of Chinese kitchenware, LOL, what hypocrisy!!
A CEO's wet dream is to sell their product and/or service to the US consumer utilizing as few US workers as "humanly" possible. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 541
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 5:22 pm: | |
Oh please Flanders. There are more potential customers out there with a global economy. We shouldn't be losing anything.
There are enough better jobs out there, stop trying to hold on to the small beans. Americans should be doing bigger things right now IF we want to continue to lead. Start looking at college as a life long process, learn a new skill. If your to old to jump on that boat, then maybe try to start a business in your trade, or work for someone who wants to.
These are exciting times. America can lead the world, or it can keep dragging it's feet. I'd prefer we lead rather than drag everyone down. Everyone wants to get into the worlds gated community, let's give them what they re asking for. They'll love us for it if we do... or hate us if we don't
Do we want to be rich snoby tyrants, or liberators? What happened to that freedom fighter mentality we were so famous for?
(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on May 28, 2008) |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4380
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 5:30 pm: | |
and, blinded by their greed, they're oblivious to the fact that that economic model is not sustainable
maybe the old farts among them who already saw one major economic depression in their lifetimes are just hoping they'll kick off before the house of cards really falls |
Flanders_field
Member
Username: Flanders_field
Post Number: 446
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 5:40 pm: | |
"All your base are belong to us"
Yeah...quite prophetical, I must say. |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 1733
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 5:46 pm: | |
"Marxism didn't work, guys. Economically unfeasible. Rail and bitch if it makes you feel better, but there's no viable alternative.
This system works, and one day will bring us back."
Ah, that's it Craig. When the employees want high wages, it's Marxism. When the execs want obscene (and quite undeserved) bonuses, it good, sound, free-market Capitalism!
Got it. |
Whithorn11446
Member
Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 234
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 5:59 pm: | |
"Oh please Flanders. There are more potential customers out there with a global economy. We shouldn't be losing anything."
I see that you are an expert on trade policy as well. Please enlighten some of us on why the United States has a wonderful trade policy even though this country is recording its highest trade deficits in history and the currency is losing value. |
Craigu
Member
Username: Craigu
Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:02 pm: | |
Being a new participant on this board, it probably isn't wise for me to jump in on a "passionate thread" but wanted to add my two cents.
As a small business owner, who is a manufacturer and importer, I can tell you it is not feasible to pay union wages/benefits when we are competing in a global economy. We sell decorative household goods and tried buying and selling american products, several years ago, in conjunction with those we import. We still have a large chunk of those products because the average american won't pay the higher prices.
The reality is that we are competing against many countries where the workers receive very little pay which is one of the major costs of a product. For example, we buy products from China where their workers earn about 35 cents an hour and live in on-site dorms. I know the first thing someone will say is that we shouldn't take advantage of workers in those countries. The reality is that the workers at those factories are lucky compared to the average countryside Chinese person who lives in a hut with a tin roof and dirt floors. Their reality is sad compared to ours but is reality none the less.
I feel bad for union workers who know no better but I'm pretty certain they look for the lowest price when shopping regardless of where the product was made/grown. As with many situations, the pain will be less if they accept reality, deal with it and make any adjustments necessary.
Everyone needs to adapt to the changing landscape; although it may have been better, we can't return to the past! |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 1734
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:02 pm: | |
Here's another, more common, job add, Track 75!
JOB OPENING:
CEO/OWNER
Automotive Manufacturing Company located in SE Michigan
Talentless and unimaginative yet soundly capitalist CEO and Owner is sought to drop into an established position and mismanage an automotive company. Must be able to pay workers less each year and yet somehow sell the fact that they are overpaid.
Proven record of incompetence and mediocrity a must. The chosen applicant will be required to sign an employment agreement, but terms of the agreement will not be enforced by the Board of Directors. Those with no business management experience or capital encouraged to apply. Ability to make outlandish stockholder promises a plus. Knowledge of basic business practices and economic fundamentals not required. Must ignore realities of the marketplace yet have know-it-all attitude. Arrogant and impatient attitude required; must be able to ignore constructive suggestions. Must be able to blame others (especially workers) for all failures. Ability to appoint Yes-men and personal cronies to the Board a plus.
Huge bonuses and benefits paid for failing performance. Obscene bonuses and benefits for break-even performance. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4382
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:13 pm: | |
Craigu, even the trade playing field and a lot of that price differential would go away.
We do need to adapt to the changing landscape. We need to start controlling our market access as tightly as foreign countries control theirs.
If our companies have to manufacture in another country in order to sell there then companies from those countries will have to build here in order to sell here. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 542
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:19 pm: | |
No, I'm not a trade policy expert like you Whithorn. Well actually, I have taken some college courses on global trade, and own a start-up business owned by people in a couple different parts of the world who have only met online. We are looking to expand into a more global type market. I also keep up witha couple of trade publications. I would recommend "The World Is Flat" by Thomas Friedman (I think). It's available at your local Detroit library. There is even a new expanded addition. He brings up some awesome points that I think you all would benefit from.
I'm not an expert by any means. However, I am someone who views other people in other nations as our peers. They deserve the same things we do. Capitalism isn't just about the corporate fat cats making a dollar. It's so much more than that. I see a country right now, who is destroying itself with it's current actions. Just like Rome and so many other great republics did before us.
On another note... Nepal is a republic!
Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200 80528/ap_on_re_as/nepal
This is another great turning point for our friends and brothers over there in Nepal. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 352
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:22 pm: | |
I work with a company that just had its best sales quarter ever, is consistently profitable, dominates the global market in their field, yet isn't profitable enough for the board members (and capital firm that bought them). So, several of peers have lost their jobs in the name of "efficiency" and "lean manufacturing".
Through multiple employers, I have witnessed time and time again the pampering of executives - whether it be athletic club memberships, complimentary Cadillacs, unconditional bonuses, or daily catered lunches. Yet, when they screw up (as in my experience they often do), it's the engineers (or middle-class workers in general) who get the boot.
It's such a segregation that's only getting worse. I forsee that my salary will stay stagnant (oops, merit-based raises are delayed again) as inflation and living expenses make me poorer. I know I'm far from alone.
Is anyone else bothered by Wal-Mart's slogan: "Save Money. Live Better."? It's beautiful irony at it's finest. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 543
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:22 pm: | |
I like that idea Lilpup! |
Pgn421
Member
Username: Pgn421
Post Number: 597
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:23 pm: | |
Dow should set a good example, and cut his salary , |
Flanders_field
Member
Username: Flanders_field
Post Number: 447
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:38 pm: | |
"because the average american can't afford the higher prices"
There...fixed it for ya.
Funny how many of the US businesses appear to easily forget that most of their now laid off, terminated, or wage/benefit reduced employees were their very own customers, directly or indirectly, as well.
Talk about a vicious circle, but that very US consumer base that they sell to, that has not yet , or will not be affected by globalization, the high cost of living and the skyrocketing price of higher education here gets smaller every year. |
Craigu
Member
Username: Craigu
Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:43 pm: | |
Lilpup:
We pay a 30% duty on glass that we import and yet it is still less than half of what it costs to buy here. I don't think everyone realizes the duties (taxes) that are paid on imported goods. Yes, some things don't have duties that are as high but the same holds true for our exports to other countries. I'm pretty certain their citizens might make the same argument with specific examples.
The "playing field" will never be even as it isn't even within our own country. For example, I can BUY a building almost five times bigger, in Detroit, for what I pay for 1.5 years worth of rent in Miami. Therefore, anything produced in FL will cost more to produce than it does in Michigan.
I read an article the other day about Chinese companies starting to open more and more factories in the US due to the value of the dollar and rising costs of raw materials, electricity etc. The Chinese economy is starting to experience some of the same price pressures as we've experienced. As a result, we are seeing a movement to making more products in Vietnam and other Asian countries. This will be a continuous cycle with an ebb and flow for countries throughout the world.
In many cases, the reality is that union wages tend to be quite high compared to the technical skills required to perform the function. Wages should be based upon the skill required to do the job and the work ethic and effort of the individual. Unions want to treat everyone equally regardless of their individual efforts. This usually results in making the "go-getter" slow his pace because he isn't rewarded for going the extra mile which results in lower productivity. This is one of the reasons why socialism/communism failed.
We moved from Bay City, Michigan in the early 80's due to what was happening to the auto industry and it's effect on our family. I don't mean to minimize the issues resulting from change but the only choice is to adapt. No matter what any of us does, we will not be able to stop the free market forces that have been unleashed. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 544
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 6:48 pm: | |
Exactly!
Good post Craigu! |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4383
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 7:20 pm: | |
And here's the crux of so many arguments:
The "playing field" in our country is (theoretically) leveled by wealth redistribution via taxes at the Federal level. There is no strong international equivalent body.
It's no surprise that the same party that argues against domestics taxes (yet spend like raging manics) are the same people who want to break unions, ship jobs overseas, pad their own pockets, and generally shit on the people actually doing the productive work.
Yet this attitude doesn't exist in all cultures. There is no such massive wage gap in Japan. There isn't this runaway capitalism in Canada and Europe, while in other places slavery is thriving (and is used by suppliers to some major corporations).
Which way will the US go in the game of globalization? Will we evolve toward a Western European mindset where societal issues matter or will we become more second or third world, with a minority living in extreme wealth while the majority are impoverished? |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1365
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 7:58 pm: | |
Q - If unions create wealth, then why don't they start their own companies???
A - Because they would be held accountable to walk their talk and could not come through with promises. |
Craigu
Member
Username: Craigu
Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 8:04 pm: | |
Ahh... the political aspect is a completely different issue but I can't agree with wealth redistribution via taxes at the federal level.
Let's use me as an example. I worked eighteen years, at the same company, starting as an entry level employee and leaving as a senior executive. I started my company from scratch by leveraging EVERYTHING I own, including multiple mortgages on my house, to build a company that will hopefully drive an income necessary to maintain my middle class life style I earned from my previous employer. I have not reached that goal yet after working four plus years at times seven days a week for 12+ hours per day.
Now suppose I avoid bankruptcy, become very successful and begin making $250k plus per year. Should I pay more taxes than someone who didn't take any risks because I am now making more money than average? Personally, I think that would be punitive and counter productive for someone who is paying a lot of tax and creating jobs. IMHO, a flat tax would be fair.
By the way, I'm not a Republican so don't tie my thoughts to the behavior of the current administration. ;) |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 161
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:03 pm: | |
I have the solution: A Federal that requires all products (including foreign) sold in the U.S. be made in accordance with our laws (minimum wage, right to organize, environmental laws, OSHA, etc.). Our Constitution says that ALL (not just Americans) MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL... So why is it that American companies have to follow these laws, but foreign companies are given a free ride? |
Rid0617
Member
Username: Rid0617
Post Number: 157
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:35 am: | |
I've said for a long time that any corporation who outsources American jobs should lose all American tax breaks |
Civilprotectionunit4346
Member
Username: Civilprotectionunit4346
Post Number: 722
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:03 am: | |
My brother in law got the word that they are cutting his salary due to the axle strike. How bad is that especially with the cost of fuel & food prices on the rise. |
Mind_field
Member
Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 908
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:34 am: | |
I know a white collar worker who works downtown at the Ren cen (for GM). In addition to their salary, which is close to $150k, they live over 60 miles from downtown, and are given a free ginormous gas guzzling SUV courtesy GM, and GM pays the gas and insurance too!••• That is assinine! All the while the blue collar workers pay gets slashed!
Executive pay is even more outrageous and unjustified, obviously. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2226
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:01 am: | |
Yes it is outrageous, but the real comparison is by the number of workers. That is the key that everyone forgets.
quote:While the financial health of large automotive suppliers improved slightly in 2007, nearly 50% of smaller, privately held suppliers in North America are facing financial distress, according to BBK Ltd., an international consulting firm.
Advertisement
Many large suppliers have improved their balance sheets in recent years by lowering production costs and labor rates, BBK CEO William Diehl said during a presentation for the Automotive Press Association on Wednesday.
But for many suppliers, that's no longer adequate because raw-material prices are increasing and automakers are cutting production as sales falls in the United States.
As a result, 17% -- or 14 of the industry's 80 largest suppliers -- may experience financial distress in the next 12 months, Diehl said.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2008805290456
Why should those other countries be denied the living we have enjoyed for a over a century. Oh I get it, we can have it but they can't. We have no problem selling our goods overseas all these years but now they can't.
If the trade policies are so bad then explain why exporting of goods is up. The job losses are not from Nafta or any other buzz word, they are from it now takes less people to do the job.
We will always maintain some sort of trade deficit with our large buying power. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2362
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
Who creates wealth? Who gets more than their fair share of wealth? These are the big questions. Some forumers see the "wealth creation" as being done by the people who set up companies, thus entitling them to whatever they want. Some forumers see the wealth being created through exploitation of the workers, who must struggle and organize to get contracts and compensation.
I think the "wealth creating CEOs" rhetoric is a bunch of bull, just a lot of mendacious nonsense. Yeah, sure, there are some bright people with good ideas who've started up inventive companies and haven't been total parasites (Gar Wood, for instance). But, strictly speaking, managers don't create wealth; they *appropriate* it. Workers know where profits come from: From our labor. Workers create the valuable stuff; management takes some of the value for itself, to do with what it will.
What does that mean on the ground? It means this: Want improvements in safety? Phuck you, we're buying back stock. Want a better health program? Phuck you, we're raising our salaries. Want a guaranteed pension? Phuck you, we're raiding that for a bonus package.
So, management not only gets to take the value of your labor, they get to use it against you. They get to make donations to politicians that despise organized labor. They get to take it and spend it on lawyers to beat unions in court. They get to spend it on advertising and PR to quiet the free press.
And, like it or not, the only corrective against that kind of power comes through organized labor. Unions, imperfect institutions that they are, are the only legal entities that can get the goods, secure a contract, and make management listen and act. And management, generally, hates that.
Well, boo-freakin-hoo.  |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2228
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:15 am: | |
I don't even know where to start with that post other than to just save the space and say it is pure bullshit. But don't fell bad, people have been spreading that same sorry rhetoric for years. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4389
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
"We will always maintain some sort of trade deficit with our large buying power."
Do you live this way, personally - spending more than you take in? Do you think the country can survive it any more than you personally could?
It's the same effect but on a much, much larger scale.
At one time we didn't have trade deficits and the country essentially built up its savings account. Right now, with these massive, record-setting deficits we have pissed away all those savings and have maxed out the loans and credit cards. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2229
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:31 am: | |
It would be nice if it were that simple.
If it were that simple than depressing wages would bring the balance back in order as the trade deficit ballooned as average wages increase to a threshold above the amount of exports causing exports to decrease and imports to increase. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2363
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:35 am: | |
Their economics are that simple. All we have to do is be willing to work for the same rate as a Laotian peasant and everything will be hunky-dory. |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 308
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:42 am: | |
I'm not sure how some people got the impression that the purpose of any business is to provide employment to anyone. Perhaps in the Soviet Union, at one time, these types of "businesses" existed. I'm not sure why anyone would risk capital by starting a business whose primary purpose is employing people.
On a side note, if you didn't take at least one community college economics course, you might want to avoid espousing on economic theory. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4390
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:46 am: | |
Spartacus, do you understand the purpose of Henry Ford's $5 day? |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2230
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:50 am: | |
quote:do you understand the purpose of Henry Ford's $5 day?
This could be fun! |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
"On a side note, if you didn't take at least one community college economics course, you might want to avoid espousing on economic theory."
I loves me how these people who went into a building and paid good money to be told how the world works. You see, those of us who haven't been "properly educated" -- you know, the ones who learned how "our" economy works on the business end -- have no right to comment on economics. Nope. No sir. Only they, who have been in a lecture hall and have been patted on the head by professors, know whereof they speak. Riiigghht. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2720
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:01 pm: | |
quote:I'm not sure how some people got the impression that the purpose of any business is to provide employment to anyone. Perhaps in the Soviet Union, at one time, these types of "businesses" existed. I'm not sure why anyone would risk capital by starting a business whose primary purpose is employing people. What's interesting is that those who don't like the way businesses treat workers evidently aren't willing or able to start a business that's more to their liking.
Rather than open up a little machine shop or hot dog stand (organized by the Teamsters and paying 300% of competitor's wages) they just whine and opine in cyberspace and then go back to working for the man. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2365
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:03 pm: | |
Actually, Track: "Rather than open up a little machine shop or hot dog stand" they unionize, go on strike, and negotiate with management.
Sorry to ruin your whining straw man like that. Don't feel too bad. (pat-pat) |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2231
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:10 pm: | |
They don't negotiate with management, they let others do that and then complain about the deal they got . Thinking all the while they are on par with management, except they are pawns to their own management. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2721
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:29 pm: | |
quote:Actually, Track: "Rather than open up a little machine shop or hot dog stand" they unionize, go on strike, and negotiate with management. And get their rear ends handed to them like at American Axle? They take big pay cuts, more than half the workforce gets booted, the company loses money, their biggest customer, GM, loses money (and now is looking at more job cuts), other local suppliers and ancillary businesses lose business, and Michigan's reputation for strident unionism is reinforced, discouraging other companies from locating here.
Bravo! Another triumph for unionism.
I'd still love to see you open a hot dog stand where you pay your mustard-man $25/hr with BCBS, etc. What's a mustard-man? He's the only employee who can apply mustard. There's a ketchup-man and a relish-man too. Union work rules, of course. If the ketchup-man puts some mustard on a hot dog, expect a grievance. If a customer wants mustard after the mustard-man has gone home for the day you'll need to call him back in for an automatic 4 hours at double time. Union rules. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2366
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:35 pm: | |
What are you saying? That unions need tougher negotiating teams? I think that's something a lot of people would agree with.
Who came up with the division of labor? Unions had to find a way to ensure job security, but it was on management's terms. And who ratified all those union contracts all those years? Let's see ... |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 309
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:41 pm: | |
DN- Speaking of strawmen, I never meant to infer or imply that only certain people have a "right" to talk about economic theory. I'll state my point more simply: if you don't know anything about economics (other then what you've read on UAW bumper stickers) you might sound kind of uninformed (I'm being polite), that's all. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2232
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:46 pm: | |
I think they have tough negotiating teams, what they lack is foresight. Ever wonder why the unions in the rest of the world thumb their noise at the unions here. There lack of foresight into the future and the lack of understanding the business climate. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4392
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:16 pm: | |
Hardly the case. If there's any foresight lacking it's among those executives who don't understand who their customers are.
(Message edited by lilpup on May 29, 2008) |
Hamtramike
Member
Username: Hamtramike
Post Number: 501
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:30 pm: | |
Maybe one problem with the UAW is that times have changed, markets evolve, and the UAW has not. Now, the only option they have is to hang on to what little they have left. (I have no problem with labor organizing and there are instances when it works)
BTW, i haven't heard any criticism about Ron getting 2.3% raise this year after another year of loss in membership, selling out new membership, higher co-pays, and wage decreases. Hmm rewarding one's failures, or is this not his fault? |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2233
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 2:22 pm: | |
quote:Hardly the case. If there's any foresight lacking it's among those executives who don't understand who their customers are.
Their customers are the union employees becuase no one else will pay for their overpriced junk. They know exactly who their customers are. The union's problem has been and still is the lack of foresight to adjust with the times and change with the flow. Instead they stuck to their guns and are being ripped apart. But keep on being sheep. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4394
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:05 pm: | |
^^distinct lack of foresight and understanding of the marketplace
OR
is a union buster, bankruptcy lawyer, repo man, or other such vulture-like service provider who benefits from the plight of the average worker
(Message edited by lilpup on May 29, 2008) |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 621
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:47 pm: | |
Damned carpet baggers. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
And they wonder why they are in the situation they are. Keep on drinking the kool-aid and watch the industry, state and its cities continue down this stretch of spending and debt. |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 207
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 5:28 pm: | |
If there was truly fair trade, what somebody earns in other countries would just be a matter of how long until they catch up with others in the same task.
We live in a time where some countries are using trade against us. It is so ridiculously simple that it amazes me the others haven't figured it out. Are workers here "threatened" by workers in Germany, France, Italy or other established economies that don't use predatory tactics?
Of course not.
But when some nations figured out that they can use simple interest rates to devalue their products to reach social agendas, well we are being used.
Japan's unemployement is below 4%. Ours is well over 7%. We recently dropped prime rates to 2% to enhance trade. They have been below a half percent for the last dozen years while accumulating massive amounts of our debt.
They are lending us money to keep the market here going but they are doing it with devalued currency while until recently getting big returns on the debt.
http://www.economagic.com/em-c gi/data.exe/bjap/ehdis01
Simply put, they are using both sides of a rate swing to their advantage. It is not fair trade. And all of us will get the bill. |
Thames
Member
Username: Thames
Post Number: 160
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:58 pm: | |
Price always seems to be at the top of the list in decision making. It's cheaper to send the work to China and everybody does it. I am hard pressed to find something that is not made in China when I make a purchase. You would be shocked if you start checking every thing you buy.
As a consumer, I need quality too. I'm sick of buying the same things over and over again. For instance, I've had two different Chinese can openers and both broke after a couple of uses. I don't WANT to buy anymore Chinese made shit. I might as well throw my money directly into the garbage. I'll PAY more, if I could buy it once and be done with it.
Everything seems to be made in China these days. It took forever to find a stupid can opener that wasn't, but I finally did. It still works, it's been 3 whole months without replacing so far.
I cringe when I hear a company threaten to leave because they can do things "cheaper" in another country. I don't want "cheaper". It's too expensive to constantly replace "cheaper" products. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 539
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:36 pm: | |
Seems that in the eyes of the union bashers, there's no bad CEOs, only bad workers. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2238
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:49 am: | |
Of course wrong again.
The Big three is littered with Bad CEOs and through history. The unions who should have fought for stakes in the companies opted for better benefits to appease the workers and are now powerless.
In all industries when a product becomes mature and production costs plummet the labor costs are an issue. To offset the labor costs instead of fighting lower costs years ago they upped the price on the cars. This had a negative effect on the buying public and they started to move on. Now they are trying to win those people back and it is an uphill battle.
Of course what is lost in all of this is AAM is a supplier and its workers do not work for the Big Three they work for a low level supplier and do not deserve to be paid on the scale of their counterparts.
There is much blame to go around, and workers who stand staunchly behind the union hall rhetoric to fire them up will always find the arrow placed firmly towards them since they are the more stubborn of the group and usually the most vocal of them has a little grasp on business and economics and it hurts them all.
So it is never as black and white as you would like it to be. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2239
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:51 am: | |
quote:Simply put, they are using both sides of a rate swing to their advantage. It is not fair trade. And all of us will get the bill.
It is fair becuase they are playing by the rules and examples we have set. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 863
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:04 pm: | |
The current model of manufacturing is dying if not dead. Manufacturing is a price-driven industry - and has always, always, always gone to the lowest-cost place. They abandoned Detroit and went for the suburbs and outburbs years ago; and now they've moved south and out of the country.
Long-term stability in a completely price-driven business is impossible; there is no way for an individual worker on the line to show their individual worth, and so they're a human widget. If another human or machine can do it for less, they will be replaced, regardless of what a union says.
I don't morally agree with all these realities; but they are the realities.
There has been significant change in the financial markets where 20-50% profit margins are now expected; a publicly traded company can no longer make money and keep it's stock price; it must continue to grow revenue to just stay even. That expectation has also changed in the last 20 years.
People say they care about buying American, but they don't. They want the cheapest price or what they perceive as the best value. I know quite a few folks in CraigU's situation.
As long as the american public wants the cheapest price, we will continue to have this situation in manufacturing. It's the market at work. A lot of the rest of the country has figured this out and so have diversified; we as a region keep sticking our head in the sand. It's a different world, and like it or not, it's not changing back.
So instead of bitching about it, do what you can do and control your situation. If you think you will fail, or if you think you will succeed, you're right. We need to refocus on SMALL business, the true engine of the economy as well as selling outside of the state. It scares lots of people, as I know so many folks who cannot comprehend doing business with anyone but automotive companies. Well, when they lose their house, maybe they'll wake up.
I know plenty of successful businesspeople in this region who are former UAW people and they decided to take their fate into their own hands instead of wasting time complaining. They woke up and realized it's over; it sucks, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
(Message edited by digitalvision on May 30, 2008) |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2241
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:28 pm: | |
Add into that digitalvision, that Real Wages have been falling 1978. This isn't new, just new to an industry that has had its head in the sand for the past 30 years.
And don't forget that at one time we were low-cost manufacturer. Times moves forward, things change and just like the Tigers are finding out, you can not expect your good years to be the basis for every year.
(Message edited by _sj_ on May 30, 2008) |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 208
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:32 pm: | |
_sj_
quote:
It is fair becuase they are playing by the rules and examples we have set.
Gotta say it. When and got proof?
I feel that our fast and very large rate reduction is a response to one of our largest debts refusing to do a rate increase. And that is on top of their trade representatives testifying to congress that there was no currency valuation tampering being done. The chart of their prime rates clearly shows that there is considerable manipulation. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2246
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 9:56 am: | |
The proof is all around you, you want to bash on other nations doing that same things we have been doing for decades, but that was ok then. Who has the most WTO trade violations, not China. Who has been found guilty of unfair trade practices. You can whine all you want about other countries and how tough they are on poor old you.
BTW, it was nice to finally see the shipping company for GM and American Axle finally return to work this week, only to see hours have been cut and people laid off, but hey keep believing in that solidarity bullshit as you keep a blind eye to peter robbing paul. |
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