  Waymooreland Member Username: Waymooreland Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2007 |
Numerous times I've heard the argument that it would be better to improve the transit we have in Detroit (buses) before we spend all kinds of money on building a light rail system. My question is, who else out there just flat-out likes riding trains better than buses? Given the option to ride a bus or a train, I would choose the train every time. I just feel more at ease riding a train and I feel like rail systems are easier to navigate. I've gone to cities like Washington, D.C. and New York and felt perfectly at ease glancing at a map and getting where I needed to go on their subway systems, but the thought of riding a bus in those cities never crossed my mind. I just find them more intimidating, in general. I do ride DDOT buses on occasion, and I've never had a problem, per se, but I just prefer the overall experience of riding a train and I can say with certainty that a light rail system would significantly increase my ridership. Does anybody else feel similarly? | ||
Arc312 Member Username: Arc312 Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2006 |
I find that even on busses I'm a backseat driver. I feel like with trains there are fewer distractions and I'm assuming fewer accidents (but I could be wrong). Ironically enough, the first time I rode on a train it was the Monorail at Walt Disney World. I think that image was burned into my young mind as THE way to take mass-transit. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1255 Registered: 12-2006 |
You've stumbled onto a topic that people in the transit biz call "mode choice" and it is slightly controversial. The facts, often and well studied, are that a great many more people will ride a train than will ride a bus. The "why" is less certain. The controversy is that the Federal Transit Admin will not let a transit agency use the facts of mode choice in its planning, even though everybody (who has studied it) knows it is a real phenomenon. One thing that's part of the equation is that everybody can see where a train goes: it follows the tracks. They can also see where the train stops, since any kind of rail station is more substantial than the typical Detroit bus stop, which is usually a sign bolted to a telephone pole. Also, of course, trains are almost always faster than buses, accelerate more smoothly, and give a smoother ride. If you'd like to try out two of these things: 1. Finding Stops: Stand at Grand River and Grand Boulevard. Four bus lines that I know of go past that point: Grand River, Grand Belt, Joy and Tireman. Figure out where to stand in order to catch the westbound Tireman bus. You can even look at the bus schedule if you like. A hundred points if you get it right on the first try. 2. Smoother Ride: Ride any bus on Michigan Avenue past Trumbull, and you get a hundred points if you still have all your teeth two blocks later. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 6499 Registered: 10-2003 |
There is a SMART bus stop right in front of my work. However, no SMART bus ever stops there. The closest actual stop is a 15 minute walk away. 100 points if you can figure out why. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1256 Registered: 12-2006 |
JL, I'll take 50 points if you give me a hint: what bus stops a 15 minute walk away? | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 491 Registered: 04-2005 |
JLodge, is there a people mover stop there? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3075 Registered: 04-2006 |
I prefer the train because it's faster than the bus... here in NYC at least. I use the bus for shorter distances. Fact is that the train works better because 1) it isn't subject to auto traffic and 2) it holds a lot more people a lot more comfortably than a bus. But there are things that buses are useful for that can't be done by trains efficiently (and vice versa)... which is why they should supplement each other. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 492 Registered: 04-2005 |
For the past three summers, I have taken Amtrak out to Colorado to visit my daughter. Yes, it's a longer trip than a plane, but it is very enjoyable. It's relaxing, and you can get up and move around, enjoy the scenery, play a game of scrabble and take your own food on board. The trip out takes about 24 hours, including a stopover in Chicago, and is pretty close to right on time. The return trip, on the other hand, is always several hours late. There are myriad reasons, chief among them being that the train that picks us up in Denver has just come in from San Francisco, and there are always problems in the Rockies. The trip itself is still great but we always roll into Chicago just after our Michigan train has left. Their solution to this is to load all of the hot, tired, pissed off Michigan passengers onto either a bus or a couple of vans. This trip is NOT relaxing. It's crowded, no bathrooms, no food and there are usually at least two drunks. We get into Detroit at around sunrise, and then have the ride home to deal with. Based on this, I would heartily recommend train travel, but the bus only if you have to. To give Amtrak due credit, they have given me a voucher for future train travel each time i've had a problem. | ||
7andkelly Member Username: 7andkelly Post Number: 361 Registered: 04-2008 |
Jc: You had me with the relaxing, the scenery, the scrabble, and the two drunks, but I have to draw the line on bringing my own food. If I have to pass through Chicago, then I want my 3 squares. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 495 Registered: 04-2005 |
If I had more time in Chicago, I'd be hunting down some pizza myself, but it's a fairly short stop. The plus to bringing your own food, is that you don't have to spend a fortune on the train. I usually get dinner in the club car on the way there, and breakfast on the way home, but I carry snacks and iced tea with me. | ||
Zitro Member Username: Zitro Post Number: 317 Registered: 04-2008 |
JC: The sweet corn should be in season when you roll through Iowa, I'll try to save you an ear or two. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 6045 Registered: 02-2007 |
JL - you are working in Livonia? | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 361 Registered: 10-2003 |
ok I going to bash Michigan for a moment. Fyi, I've been here since well before 2003 and I don't think I have ever said a harsh word about Michigan or Detroit. But I am going to this once. quote from Jcole "Their solution to this is to load all of the hot, tired, pissed off Michigan passengers onto either a bus or a couple of vans. This trip is NOT relaxing. It's crowded, no bathrooms, no food and there are usually at least two drunks" It is not just the crowded Amtrak trains. I work in a restaurant in downtown Chicago and so often Michigan tourists are just miserable. The complaining, the poor attitudes, the drunkeness, the littering, and bad behavior with shitty attitudes. For example just last night I was outside the restaurant having a cigarette and two tourists from Michigan, they told me they were from there, were looking for a train station. Sooo then why insult me, why be rude, why be a tough guy? What is so funny about that? I know that is just one example but it happens all the time. Why yell things at people from your car? Why be so rude? Why so much complaining? How come everyone is such a judgemental tough guy? Don't like gays, don't like immigrants, don't like anyone. It is really annoying and Michigan tourists are notorious. Anyway, I'm sure plenty of people are like well why are you on this forum, go to Chicagoyes.com. This is the first forum I signed up for and I've stuck with it. This is my one and only Detroit bash in 7 or so years, actually Michigan not the city of Detroit bash. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 6046 Registered: 02-2007 |
they probably drive in. sorry, chigagoans, you have a really crappy highway system and no one seems capable of driving over 20. I have yet to visit Chicago and not had at least one snotty, arrogant or rude comment when asking directions, especially downtown | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4264 Registered: 10-2003 |
To continue the tangent: I too have found Michigan tourists to be snotty, xenophobic, ignorant, overly demanding, and pissy when things aren't exactly as they are back home. Why leave, then? RB's comment about Chicago's highway system reeks just a little bit of this. Chicago IS Chicago because they didn't gut the entire God damned downtown with freeways. DEAL WITH IT. A group of teachers from the Detroit area once asked me if there were casinos near DC. I told them to get on I-95, and keep driving until they hit Atlantic City. Never mind the people who stop me on the street during rush hour to ask driving directions to a place clear across town. Sir, you're in a traffic circle, and you are blocking ten cars behind you. Also, I'm trying to get to work, and don't have 20 minutes to wait for you to figure out how to read a map. And let's keep this in mind: when you visit somewhere else, the people on the street are NOT extras on a movie set planted there for your vacation enjoyment. We have jobs to do and lives to lead, and if we're running late for a meeting, the last thing we want is for you to block the sidewalk with your family's parade, or stop us dead in our tracks and ask for directions. With that said, trains are easier to ride when you're drunk or hung over. Tying the tangent back to the original thread: I really wish tourists would have some respect for the subway system. It's our mode of transportation--not a playground for your kids. You don't see me shitting up the backseat of your Ford with obnoxious conversation and dumping soda all over the upholstery. | ||
Evelyn Member Username: Evelyn Post Number: 218 Registered: 02-2005 |
The why is an excellent question... I like taking trains better than buses. Any light rail service over a bus, for that matter. Trains are faster, you don’t have to tell the conductor when you’re getting off, the view is generally nicer, and there tends to be less strange characters waiting for a train. Trains and subways have more than one car, meaning you can separate yourself from a situation, if you have to. (OK, that sounds really antisocial, but I hope you know what I mean!) | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 186 Registered: 12-2004 |
I've met tons of rude people from Chicago in my life, but I'm not low enough to pigeonhole them into any stereotypical identity. | ||
Markm Member Username: Markm Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2008 |
Trains are better than buses. Trains don't get stuck in traffic, busses do. | ||
7andkelly Member Username: 7andkelly Post Number: 363 Registered: 04-2008 |
Thanks to GPS, ATMs, EFT, DD, dot coms and wi-fi, none of us will ever have to speak with another person ever again. So "why can't we all just get along"?! For some the answer may be "we don't have to", but that makes for a crappy life. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 496 Registered: 04-2005 |
The trains that run from anywhere in Michigan to Chicago are basically ratty old commuter trains. Michigan doesn't have one manned train station in the entire state. No ticket sales, no customer service, no baggage check, etc. So, when you get to Chicago, you are usually pretty tired of lugging your baggage yourself, and looking out a dirty window. Once you get on the 'real' trains, it's much better and then the relaxing begins. When leaving Chicago to go home, the last train pulls out at around 6pm, so if your connector is late, you'll be put on the bus home. And all trains returning to Michigan terminate in Chicago, so there are plenty of exhausted people waiting around. I'm not trying to excuse the rude people, but if they are waiting to take the long bus back to Michigan, I sort of understand. Still, I would rather take the train than try to drive and park in Chicago. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4266 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You've never ridden the Baltimore Light Rail, then! | ||
Zitro Member Username: Zitro Post Number: 321 Registered: 04-2008 |
7&K: Thanks again for hitting my chortle button. CMAO | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 497 Registered: 04-2005 |
Z, have that sweet corn waiting at the station in Ottumwa. It's a really quick stop there, though. | ||
Zitro Member Username: Zitro Post Number: 322 Registered: 04-2008 |
You won't even need butter | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 724 Registered: 06-2005 |
Trains in Japan can hold more commuters that busses. Plus, there are friendly, helpful attendants to make sure everyone gets safely on board.  Afronerd posted this video clip the other day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Loz9XpTqq6M (Corrected the location. Thank you focusonthed) (Message edited by Neilr on May 06, 2008) | ||
Downriviera Member Username: Downriviera Post Number: 356 Registered: 02-2008 |
The Bus system in Honolulu is really good. When I lived there my car sat for weeks at a time. It was much easier to take the bus since parking was at a premium. You could get anywhere from anywhere really easy. Cheap and efficient. Not trying to compare Oahu to Detroit, but no reason the busses here can't work better. http://www.thebus.org/AboutThe Bus/AmericaBest.asp | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2054 Registered: 09-2007 |
HA! Chicago and NYC people are far worse than Detroit people in the category of arrogance. They think because they're from huge gigantic cities, they're better than everyone.Then, it pisses me off when they complain about our ways here in the Metro. If you don't like it, STAY HOME! Anyway, trains are much faster than buses and they can be much less stressful when it comes to the stop and pick-up points. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 98 Registered: 02-2008 |
Question about SEMTA...their trains back in the 70/80s, was that an attempt for a RT in metro Detroit? Why couldn't, now, that the tracks going up to Pontiac be used? Adding a third lane might ease AMTRAK/commericial/RT traffic. Or stopping AMTRAK at Detroit, then using such RT to get to RO, B-ham, and Pontiac, which then could add more stops. Just a thought... I totally agree that the RT train system is much more reliable than the bus system. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 99 Registered: 02-2008 |
...Oh I see SEMTA trains were more like METRA in Chicagoland | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1820 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: Wrong, except the baggage check. Niles, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, East Lansing, Flint, Port Huron, Jackson, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, and Detroit all have staffed stations including ticketing offices. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1821 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: That's actually Japan, as your YouTube link says. (Message edited by focusonthed on May 06, 2008) | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 102 Registered: 02-2008 |
Yeah, I bought a ticket at the Detroit station once. What are you talking about, Jcole? | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 61 Registered: 04-2008 |
Aren't we comparing apples to oranges, or rather apples to oranges to cantaloupe to pumpkin to watermelon? Apples = City Buses. You know what they are. Oranges = Light rail (streetcar, tramway, or trolley) is lightweight passenger rail cars operating singly (or in short, usually two-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is not separated from other traffic for much of the way. Light rail vehicles are typically driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph. Cantaloupe = Heavy rail (metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail) is an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi-car trains on fixed rails; separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded; sophisticated signaling, and high platform loading. If the service were converted to full automation with no onboard personnel, the service would be considered an automated guideway. Pumpkin = Commuter rail (also called metropolitan rail, regional rail, or suburban rail) is an electric or diesel propelled railway for urban passenger train service consisting of local short distance travel operating between a central city and adjacent suburbs. Service must be operated on a regular basis by or under contract with a transit operator for the purpose of transporting passengers within urbanized areas, or between urbanized areas and outlying areas. Such rail service, using either locomotive hauled or self propelled railroad passenger cars, is generally characterized by multi-trip tickets, specific station to station fares, railroad employment practices and usually only one or two stations in the central business district. Intercity rail service is excluded, except for that portion of such service that is operated by or under contract with a public transit agency for predominantly commuter services, which means that for any given trip segment (i.e., distance between any two stations), more than 50% of the average daily ridership travels on the train at least three times a week. Watermelon = Amtrak and Greyhound. Inter-city transportation So, for example, you could possibly compare a city bus with light rail, but not heavy rail. And you could compare Amtrak to Greyhound. But I think any other comparison would be among incomparable modes. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 311 Registered: 01-2007 |
Although I will enjoy the Detroit Light rail system when it comes online, my last train ride back from Chicago was rough. It was as if we were riding on wheels with severe flat spots with a heavy jolting ride ALL the way back, (8 hours). When I took my 73 year old parents to Chicago, the bus rush hour regulars were helpful in pulling the cord for our stop for us. Of course getting a seat when the bus took off was a challenge. I had to catch my Mom flying down the aisle making 10 foot strides! | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 502 Registered: 04-2005 |
Focusonthed, I stand corrected on the ticket offices in those locations. But the staffing hours are limited. It's not like the stations you find in Chicago, Denver, Omaha, etc. Also, because there is no baggage claim in Michigan, on the return leg from Denver, we were not allowed to check any baggage. Everything had to be carry on so that we wouldn't miss our connector out of Chicago, which we did anyway. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 274 Registered: 04-2007 |
I've taken Amtrak from Detroit to Seattle a few times, and I love the trip. Ther is plenty of good food on the Empire Builder. The only scary part is worrying about making our connections in Chicago. Also, Amtrak between Kalamazoo and Michigan City is really quite nice and high-speed. That's because they actually own the tracks in that section. The rest of the distance is leased from freight railroads. As for busses, the Megabus can get you to Chicago for a buck, if you reserve early enough. It's usually full, I guess, but so is the train to Chicago on every run. City busses can get you around, but I'd love to see a move back to electric traction streetcars on current bus routes. It is cleaner, much quieter, smoother to ride, and they won't shake my house when they hit the potholed intersection at the end of my block at 40 mph. Plus they wouldn't spew diesel particulates. And, on top of that they are quieter. Did I say cleaner? | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 275 Registered: 04-2007 |
I've taken Amtrak from Detroit to Seattle a few times, and I love the trip. There is plenty of good food on the Empire Builder. The only scary part is worrying about making our connections in Chicago. Also, Amtrak between Kalamazoo and Michigan City is really quite nice and high-speed. That's because they actually own the tracks in that section. The rest of the distance is leased from freight railroads. As for busses, the Megabus can get you to Chicago for a buck, if you reserve early enough. It's usually full, I guess, but so is the train to Chicago on every run. City busses can get you around, but I'd love to see a move back to electric traction streetcars on current bus routes. It is cleaner, much quieter, smoother to ride, and they won't shake my house when they hit the potholed intersection at the end of my block at 40 mph. Plus they wouldn't spew diesel particulates. And, on top of that they are quieter. Did I say cleaner? | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 278 Registered: 03-2008 |
About the Michigan tourist comment; People from the less urban areas of your state do the same things in our CBD. They are often just as rude too! Sadly, we get the same amount of lost, rude tourists from our own suburbs...  | ||
Rid0617 Member Username: Rid0617 Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2008 |
I always used MARTA when we lived in Atlanta. Sometimes underground, sometimes suspended in the air and always fast. Travel from one end of Atlanta to the other for $1.75. Cheaper if you had a trans card that was good for unlimited travel all month. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M etropolitan_Atlanta_Rapid_Tran sit_Authority | ||
W_chicago Member Username: W_chicago Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2008 |
I most defiantly prefer trains over buses. One, because well... they're just sweet. Two, and probably more important, is that trains improve the ENTIRE system, including the functionality of the buses. If we had a good system of rails, I could just hop on a SMART or DDOT bus and take it to the rail line, and take that to where I need to go. Unfortunately, as it is now if I'm going more than a few miles the bus becomes, well... slow, really slow, like UBER slow. I've heard time and time again on this forum... "improve the current transit." And my reply: yes, improve the current transit buy building rail that will improve the functionality of buses, and ultimately the entire transit system. Yes, better service and "safer" buses are a definite positive. But when it comes down to it, folks aren't going to decide to ride transit based on "preference," Changing a few signs here, or a building a new bus shelter there isn't going to change the actual functionality of the whole transit system. It won't reduce a ride time from an hour to 15 minutes... but trains will. | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 216 Registered: 11-2007 |
"It won't reduce a ride time from an hour to 15 minutes... but trains will." I don't think so. Light rail might be twice as fast as regular buses--speeds vary based upon the situation--but it isn't fout times faster. Buses average maybe 13 mph, light rail in the mid-20's. Even subways probably can't average more than 3 times faster. | ||
Waymooreland Member Username: Waymooreland Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2007 |
"I most defiantly prefer trains over buses. One, because well... they're just sweet." Yeah, see, this is what I'm getting at -- riding a train is fun, period. Now make that train useful and you've got a formula for huge ridership numbers. I still think that even if we had the most efficient bus transit system in the world, more people would ride if it were a train instead. I also agree with Prof Scott that tracks and stations are comforting to riders. On a bus, you already have to know where you're going, too, because you have to pull the yellow cord before your stop. Another reason why buses are intimidating and trains are inviting. Why do you think anyone rides the People Mover? Either because they don't know downtown or because they're lazy or need to get somewhere slightly faster than if they walked. Well, if you don't know the city particularly well, bus transit simply isn't going to work for you. Trains, on the other hand, can work very well. Finally, just, look at this image of the Shinkansen bullet train in Japan:  Don't you just want to hop right on this thing? It's so happy and friendly! Okay, just kidding, but I stand by my previous points. | ||
W_chicago Member Username: W_chicago Post Number: 26 Registered: 01-2008 |
""It won't reduce a ride time from an hour to 15 minutes... but trains will." I don't think so. Light rail might be twice as fast as regular buses--speeds vary based upon the situation--but it isn't fout times faster. Buses average maybe 13 mph, light rail in the mid-20's. Even subways probably can't average more than 3 times faster." Okay, maybe that was an overestimate. But seriously! Trains WILL reduce ride time if you need to go more than a few miles because you can just take the bus to a rail, instead of take the slow ass bus. Maybe not four times as fast, but defiantly faster. |
