 
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 6016
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 2:49 pm: |    |
Firstandten's view is the most likely reason for any VV involvement in Michigan. VV will probably have an engeering test facility located near The National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory (NVFEL) in Ann Arbor. That's essentially why Toyota has any presence in Michigan (Ann Arbor).
(Message edited by livernoisyard on April 25, 2008) |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12558
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 7:52 am: | |
Otter,
That PA VW plant was certainly in Westmoreland...but I thought they ended production there before the A2 version came out in 1985...only the square ones were built here.
I wouldn't bet on it though...I stopped liking the Rabbit/Golf when I first drove the heavier and smoother A2. It lost the character of the earlier ones.
Wasn't anything quite like a '83-4 GTI with that ugly exhaust manifold/downpipe replaced with something that actually let the air flow.
Loaded my last one into a SuperTrap tunable glass-pack 'muffler', and was well on the way to making it Waterford Hills race-ready when I was rear-ended on the way to a cousin's wedding up at Outer Drive and Southfield.
UGH. Probably saved me thousands in brakes and tires...I discovered Sony's Playstation with the steering wheel instead. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:47 am: | |
VW will not build their plant here. Like someone already said, they will go to a right to work state. If they do choose MI, it will more than likely be West Michigan, where it is less unionized and more support for right to work. The American Axle strike is hurting MI at a time when it does need any more things tarnishing its image. |
Gaz
Member
Username: Gaz
Post Number: 141
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 11:11 am: | |
You're probably right, unfortunately. Unions are being looked at as dinosaurs by companies going global. Arizona is a right-to-work state, and companies are moving here all the time. |
Frankg
Member
Username: Frankg
Post Number: 224
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 11:51 am: | |
If Michigan made paying corporate taxes optional (like workers paying union dues in a right-to-work-for-less state) then companies would be moving here. |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 120
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 1:09 pm: | |
Gannon,
VW closed their plant in PA in the mid-1980s, but I don't know when. You're probably right in that it was closed when they stopped building the A1.
I like both but have only driven an A2. Rabbit GTIs are terrific! Somebody in the city has a pretty cherry-looking rust-red one that I see on I-94 occasionally. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 497
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:37 am: | |
"If Michigan made paying corporate taxes optional (like workers paying union dues in a right-to-work-for-less state) then companies would be moving here."
Why? Are the companies going to foot the bill for state police patrols, health and human services and all of the other state services paid for in part with corporate tax dollars? |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5961
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 4:53 am: | |
Does anyone know where VW's other plants are, currently? I've been trying to find where all of their plants currently are, but can't find anything on their website. GM lists all of its facilities (and it's searchable) on their website. I thought VW would have the same feature. |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 123
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 8:28 am: | |
Mexico, Brazil, Germany, Spain (Seat), Czech Republic (Skoda), maybe somewhere else in eastern Europe, and China are the ones I can think of. |
Peachlaser
Member
Username: Peachlaser
Post Number: 174
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 8:35 am: | |
jjaba said. "There's plenty of successful automotive production in the South. Fords in Atlanta, GM in Arlington, Texas come to mind."
Ford and GM are getting out of Atlanta. Kia is investing $1.2 billion for a new plant in western Ga. south of Atlanta. When it was functioning, the Ford plant in Hapeville was recognized for its quality. |
Rooms222
Member
Username: Rooms222
Post Number: 108
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:53 pm: | |
The Golf continued to be made in PA until 1988. The Jetta's were coming from Germany at this time. I had a 1987 US Made Golf (Vin starts with '1') and a 1988 German Made Jetta (Vin Starts with 'W'). The fact that the US market is about the only one where the Jetta (Sedan) vastly outsells the Golf (Hatchback) by a ratio of up to 9:1 hastened the demise of the Westmoreland plant.
They then started to phase in the Mexican production. The Mexican quality problems turned many Golf and Jetta buyers away from VW. The Mexican plant has been an endless source of trouble for VW, at least as far as transitioning from US/German production for the US Market has been concerned. It was built over 50 years ago, and for a short while had new and old Beetles coming out of the same complex. Quality has been so poor that there was a labor dispute/strike that resulted in the entire plant being shut and the US Market has no Golfs or Jettas for a year (around 1993- the Brazilian Fox or the German Passat were the only automobile options).
It is interesting that the Mexican Ford plant, on the other hand, has been such a quality success story. It produced the Tracer and the ZX2, both cars whose quality was good enough (and depreciation big enough) to rank them Consumer Reports Best Buy Used Cars (along with Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, but few other Big 3 cars). I remember doing a case study of the plant where they noted that the employees were trained in Brazil and Europe, because they thought training them in the US or Canada would cause labor difficulties.
(Message edited by rooms222 on April 28, 2008) |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 469
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:55 pm: | |
I think I'm going to build my own vehicles from now on. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 302
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:19 pm: | |
Oh..... let's thank Ford and Mazda for the one true selfless gift to the American Civilization. Without the PROBE, I would have $1800-$2400 more in my bank account and less stress.
What a cheapo! It made it to 80,000 miles and died
Every 4-6 months a new, but rare diagnosis car problem would develop. This was always followed by a $300-$700 repair job. Oh, and the diagnosis would run a cool $129.99, unless you had the work done at the dealership. They generously waived it. A true gem!
I now drive my second VW and I could not be happier. From top to bottom, VW has a very reassuring air about them. I have always received great service, work and sales associates. I compare this to Pontiac and Ford of course.
Slightly off topic, but pertinent. |
Wpitonya
Member
Username: Wpitonya
Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:22 pm: | |
Jjaba,
BMW makes cars in South Carolina. It is ideal with Charleston's port. Could they ship cars around the world from Detroit on water instead of rails? Do they do this already? |
Bobceng
Member
Username: Bobceng
Post Number: 85
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:25 pm: | |
Spacemonkey: you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding parts for your project. We'll just put a sign on Heany's Plumbing that you need car parts. There will be a long line of shopping carts headed to your house in no time. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 470
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:28 pm: | |
Hey, that reminds me of the motorized grocery cart I saw for sale on Craig's list Detroit. No kidding. Someone was selling a shopping cart rigged with an engine and mini bike tires.
I should have bought it. Just think how fast I could get my grocery shopping done. |
Bobceng
Member
Username: Bobceng
Post Number: 86
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:35 pm: | |
Lest we get accused of Threadjacking, we should assume that the cart in question is powered by an old V'Dub Beetle powerplant. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 472
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:37 pm: | |
Too true.
I also saw a barstool for sale on Craig's list that had wheels and an engine. It, too, was probably powered by an engine from a vehicle that was designed by Hitler. |
Bobceng
Member
Username: Bobceng
Post Number: 88
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 2:50 pm: | |
Hitler should've stuck with car design. Considering his admiration of Henry Ford and all, he might have really made something of himself. Couldn't have been much worse to work for than Hank the Deuce and Harry Bennett.
BTW: do you think they might move production of these barstools and shopping carts to Michigan? |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 475
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 3:42 pm: | |
We need Granholm to get on the barstool and shopping cart bandwagon and bring the industry here.
Surely these machines get 90 MPG. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 476
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 3:45 pm: | |
Lest you think I'm kidding:
http://detroit.craigslist.org/ mcy/657579586.html
These probably can be made on a VW assembly line, sponsored by Becks or St Pauli Girl. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2466
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 6:48 pm: | |
I forwarded the Crains article to a friend that works for VW. His response in part read:
"VW wants the plant up and running by 2011. With such an short time line, MI is one of the few states that can accommodate us. I also suspect MI's Governor made us a pretty good offer. A decision is suppose to be made by July."
Great to her such good news, that Michigan is still in demand in the auto industry. At least some still know where to go to get those best trained in the industry. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5964
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 6:54 pm: | |
I believe that the reason that we're even a contender is because of how much time Granholm has spent in Wolfsburg. Whatever you think of her she's probably been overseas more than any other governor looking for jobs. This is out of pure necessity, of course, but at least Michigan has a face to put a name too when thinking about investment. It's social networking on a huge scale.
Michigan's still a major disadvantage for many reasons mentioned above, but I think that our name is even put out there says something given the other obstacles, real or precieved. |
Ffdfd
Member
Username: Ffdfd
Post Number: 289
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 7:11 pm: | |
From Daniel Howes yesterday:
quote:Just as it is nationally, however, UAW representation in Michigan is regional. Denso, the Japanese supplier affiliated with Toyota Motor Corp., has operated a non-union facility outside Battle Creek for 20 years. Considering the multiple confrontations UAW locals are waging right now, the Denso model might be the right one for a foreign-owned assembly plant in the Big Mitten.
Target west Michigan. Give Gov. Jennifer Granholm the chance to woo new investment. And let Michigan's high jobless rate and comparative union weakness outstate do the trick. The results could be surprising -- even to the fiercest critics.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080428/O PINION03/804280373 |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2469
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 7:25 pm: | |
Yeah--no secret that the unions are the biggest disadvantage to opening a plant in southeast MI. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5967
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 7:30 pm: | |
BTW, I contacted Volkswagen to find where all of their plants are located. In the Americas, they've got one plant in Pueblo, Mexico, and the rest are in South America (Argentina and Brazil). |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5361
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 8:31 pm: | |
Would our strong R&D reputation be a selling point for VW? I mean, we do have the UAW, but can the South compete with the vast amount of technical expertise found here? |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:08 pm: | |
VW does still have an engineering center in Auburn Hills.... |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5968
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:52 pm: | |
Good observation, Otter. I didn't know that. |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 11:29 pm: | |
The Auburn Hills VW/Audi North American headquarters is dead. It will be moved to DC area shortly.
This is also why I'd be surprised to see VW put a plant here. They just bailed on Detroit, and admitted it was basically an image problem (that Detroit's woes were causing a bad image cloud that hangs over VW because they're headquartered in Detroit too).
If they were concerned about it with their headquarters, they should be even more concerned if they put an assembly plant in the state. Its probably even more high-profile than their relatively small, and few employeed headquarters.
And it is true, a union state does not automatcially mean union workforces. They still have to vote, etc.
Finally, if they want this plant running by 2011, time is pretty much up. It takes a good 3 years at least to build a new auto plant from scratch, meaning they'd have to start RIGHT NOW to have any chance of having it ready by 2011. And they need to do it right. Nissan rushed their Canton, MS plant and had horrendous quality problems there. Being VW's are already know for their lousy quality, they really don't wanna botch this one. Me thinks that they're considering a new facility (likely in Alabama or Tennessee), but that Michigan is in the running because it may have an existing, closed/shuttered facility that VW could buy and quickly convert. Say Wixom? Might be perfect. Isn't there also a GM factory that may be closing? Orion or Pontiac? Not to mention Chrysler is looking to unload Detroit Axle (though I can't imagine VW would want their plant in this ancient dump...built in 1917 and located in a real POS neighborhood). What about Budd/ThyssenKrupp? That also closed. Not to mention a slew of other plants across the rest of the state. That's about the only way I can see them going for Michigan. |
Ffdfd
Member
Username: Ffdfd
Post Number: 291
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 11:47 pm: | |
quote:Michigan is in the running because it may have an existing, closed/shuttered facility that VW could buy and quickly convert. Say Wixom? Might be perfect. Isn't there also a GM factory that may be closing? Orion or Pontiac? Not to mention Chrysler is looking to unload Detroit Axle (though I can't imagine VW would want their plant in this ancient dump...built in 1917 and located in a real POS neighborhood). What about Budd/ThyssenKrupp?
I'm guessing when VW says Michigan is in the running, it likely does not mean SE Michigan. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 483
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
I keep hearing there is some huge development uder way in Grand Rapids that no one is saying what it's to become. Maybe it's the new VW plant.
Why should we assume it would come to SE Michigan. it could go west. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 484
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
I keep hearing there is some huge development under way in Grand Rapids that no one is saying what it's to become. Maybe it's the new VW plant.
Why should we assume it would come to SE Michigan. it could go west. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2490
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 2:15 pm: | |
Got a bit more insight from my friend with VW:
I first asked why VW moved their HQ out of the Detroit area, and the answer was simple; VW was not selling a lot of vehicles in the Detroit market. The Midwest is basically their slowest area and apparently Detroiters weren't very accepting of auto companies moving in. When they wanted to move out, Gramholm did quite a bit behind the scenes, which VW was impressed with. That has left them with some new opportunities in Michigan.
The U.S. market is soft right now for VW (whereas they are doing well in many other sectors), so why then would VW want to open a plant far from where there was a need for vehicles? He said that the weak dollar was essentially the reason. It's cheap to export from the U.S.
Jerome81 has the right observation--VW understands that 3 years is a very short timeframe to get a plant up and running, and they are looking at plants that have closed in the last few years to at least give them a head start. The word is that VW may open the plant in stages, bringing partially finished vehicles over and then doing the final assembly at this new plant until it is fully up and running.
On a final note, unlike what has kept many other foreign automakers from opening out plants in MI, VW is very union friendly. This stems from many things, but the state of Lower Saxony (equivalent to state level government in the U.S.) owns about 20% of VW. Therefore, the government is strictly involved in looking out for the employment of the people in the state in which they reside. Their plant in Mexico is the only one there that has union membership. Union members in Germany don't like their jobs going overseas either, but if necessary, they want it to be union. So all in all, unions being in MI won't hurt their chances of building in MI. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2101
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 2:20 pm: | |
"Michigan is in the running because it may have an existing, closed/shuttered facility that VW could buy and quickly convert. Say Wixom? Might be perfect. Isn't there also a GM factory that may be closing? Orion or Pontiac? Not to mention Chrysler is looking to unload Detroit Axle (though I can't imagine VW would want their plant in this ancient dump...built in 1917 and located in a real POS neighborhood). What about Budd/ThyssenKrupp?"
The old Budd plant is being demolished as I type.
It's a shame too. Definitely an eastside landmark.  |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 10:52 pm: | |
Budd is being demolished?
Anything going in its place? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2109
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 7:53 pm: | |
Nope. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 211
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 10:44 am: | |
This is just sad. As a region we need to get our collective heads out of the sand and come up with realistic strategies for bringing business to this state. Given the new economic realities we are seeing these days "same old,same old" just won't do.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080605/BUS INESS01/806050435/1002/BUSINES S |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2554
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 10:59 pm: | |
Well clearly that author, JUSTIN HYDE, didn't read my last post on this thread on DetroitYES. I'm sure there are reasons why Michigan might not be chosen, but Michigan does have some things going for it, esp. in the eyes of a union company that is in a hurry to get up and running by 2010. |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 11:15 pm: | |
Newsflash: Michigan is probably not going to be chosen for a new auto plant.
Is this really news? More like the same-ole same-ole.
At what point does this state realize the UAW is arguably its biggest liability to attracting the type of development that can at least partially offset the contraction of the Big 3? |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 249
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 11:30 pm: | |
"At what point does this state realize the UAW is arguably its biggest liability to attracting the type of development that can at least partially offset the contraction of the Big 3?"
Suppose this is true, which I am far from certain of. What would you suggest the state do--the UAW does actually exist, and the state isn't in a position to cause it not to exist. What difference does it make if the state "realizes" it? |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6026
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 12:01 am: | |
Compared to the unions that VW has to deal with back in Germany, the UAW looks like a friendly partner. The union-aspect of Michigan is a perfect boogie man, but at the end of the day their decision has many more moving parts to it. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1822
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 9:49 am: | |
Did anyone catch I believe it was Tom Walsh's column in the MI Business section of last Sundays Freep? West Michigan is trying to do their own version of the Mackinac conference so they can talk about topics like making MI a right to work state and other taboo subjects that would never get brought up at the Mackinac policy conference. Will be interesting to see what they have to say. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2558
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 1:31 pm: | |
"What would you suggest the state do--the UAW does actually exist, and the state isn't in a position to cause it not to exist. What difference does it make if the state "realizes" it?"
Well on that note, something that has to do with "right-to-work." |
Orange_barrel
Member
Username: Orange_barrel
Post Number: 33
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 3:49 pm: | |
Didn't we already go through all this drama and hoopla with the Toyota plant sweepstakes? Don't get me wrong, I'll be happy if we get the plant, but I'm not going to waste energy getting my hopes up. |
Hybridy
Member
Username: Hybridy
Post Number: 253
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 5:33 pm: | |
"BMW makes cars in South Carolina. It is ideal with Charleston's port. Could they ship cars around the world from Detroit on water instead of rails? Do they do this already?"
The BMW Plant is in Greer, SC which is 4 hours from Charleston. Not easy access by any means. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 213
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 8:31 pm: | |
Until we get the voters to serious consider making Michigan a right to work state I don't see things getting better any time soon from a manufacturing viewpoint. If Michigan voters are happy with things as they are then we need to sit back relax and enjoy as the service sector becomes our primary job base. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 9:06 pm: | |
The idea that there is anything you can do to keep manufacturing jobs around is not supported by any facts I am aware of. Manufacturing employment is falling everywhere, including China.
South Carolina has been discussed a lot as a example of a manufacturing success story as it has attracted manufacturing businesses from northern states and from Europe, but over the past ten years, manufacturing employment in South Carolina has fallen from about 340,000 to 250,000, or by over 25%. (according to the St Louis Fed--http://research.stlouisfed.org /fred2/series/SCMFG?cid=27323) It is possible that there are more well-paid manufacturing jobs in SC now than ten years ago (because it was totally awful before) but I don't see how making Michigan a right-to-work state is likely to improve the wage levels, and it isn't going to stop manufacturing employment from falling.
Even if you imposed the various kinds of protectionist measures you hear proposed sometimes, what would happen is that more manufacturing would be done in the US (just as is happening now with the weak dollar) but the jobs would still be automated away.
So we need to get over it, and find some other way to employ people. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 214
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 10:37 pm: | |
I do agree that making Michigan a right to work state really won't improve wage levels. The high wages that the union was able to negotiate are gone for good. They are not coming back. True manufacturing jobs have come back because of the weak dollar. I would like to see Michigan compete for some of these manufacturing plants. I know the Japanese don't want to put ass'y plants in Michigan simply because they don't want to deal with the confrontational nature of U.S. unions.
Maybe a right-to-work state status would make companies seriously look at Michigan and not just put us on a token short list to make Granholm look like she's working hard on our behalf. |
Titancub
Member
Username: Titancub
Post Number: 115
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2008 - 10:48 am: | |
Cash is king, and its not competitive to manufacture in MI compared with other states. Topical to all this is Finley's article today in News...
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080608/OPINI ON03/806080310/1400/OPINION033 0 |
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