 
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 318
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 1:44 pm: |    |
About people training their replacements. I was in a similar position a few years back when the company I was with decided to pull out of Detroit and consolidate our office with one in Austin, TX. I was asked to go down for a few months and write an IT manual for the users that were there, and train a new guy to do what I did here. It never occurred to me to try to sabotage the system, or mess with the procedures in the manual. I had worked in conjunction with the people that were in Austin, and considered them friends. Sabotaging the company would only have succeeded in causing them hardship. Also, I was being given a severance package that carried me through a year, and I didn't want to jeopordize that. There is also a thing called professional pride. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12535
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 1:45 pm: | |
DV,
That is only true when supply does not equal or exceed demand...you can bounce yourself right out of a job!
Plus, they might make more in revenue if they struck out on their own, but as soon as they expend on health care and other 'amenities' like their full tax burden...including the half of the federal and social security hidden from most worker-sheople...they will sing another song. |
Izzadore
Member
Username: Izzadore
Post Number: 131
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 1:49 pm: | |
IT Professionals are expensive... We can only hope they don't ditch their engineers next... |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 769
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 1:55 pm: | |
It's all about timing, and that's tricky, admittedly. But I see it all the time in advertising and other places where you are n a job that you can show your individual value.
The second part is an area where we truly need reform - however, we're seeing more and more of these workers without health care anyway.
That's a whole 'nother pressure that needs to be addressed - any cost going up at double inflation is going to hurt anybody, and that's what health care does.
IF you can get the cash flow up there are a lot of write-offs to get money back - but you gotta get there first. Therein lies the problem - getting over that hump.
And our government could be way more supportive to small and medium sized business in so many ways, leveling our playing field on everything from trade agreements to health care to enforcing work rules evenly. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 1:55 pm: | |
"Half of the federal"? Gannon, I pay all my own Federal Income Tax. My employer pays 1/2 my FICA and Medicare, if that's what you meant.
Self-employed have to pay their full FICA and Medicare, but if I recall correctly part of that comes back through an income tax deduction.
Finally, a great many employees nowadays have no employer-provided health care and have to figure that out for themselves. You don't need to be self-employed to be in that situation.
IT people are expensive because of scarcity; the 69,000 H1-B visas were used up within hours of the application deadline. Fact is, US college students are not going into technical fields, partly because they can't cut the math and science because their high schools have prepared them only for jobs as McDonald's grill workers. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5998
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 1:56 pm: | |
What firms would knowingly employ a Gannon-type if he carries around with him a reputation for dropping Easter eggs or time bombs into their IT? Who would ever trust him?
That would be a sure-fire way to become totally unemployable once word gets out. Which is exactly why such types (among all others) are restricted from their computers and shorn of all computer access once they're canned for any reason.
Makes good business sense to me--and virtually anybody else once they realized what harm could result from having such loose Gcannons in their IT employ.
(Message edited by livernoisyard on April 24, 2008) |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12537
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:01 pm: | |
Professorscott,
Tell me your employer doesn't have a 'matching' amount to pay in Federal Income taxes based upon YOUR earnings...it would be part of the total compensation package, but NOT removed from your 'apparent' salary...although certainly considered by your employer as part of your pay!
I'm really surprised you are not aware of this fact...but it IS hidden thoroughly by the revenuers.
Just like a retailer cannot discuss the costs of accepting Visa/MC with his customers, and cannot charge additional for it...runs from 1.65% up to around 7% depending upon the type of business, average ticket sale, volume, and the like.
There are costs we usually do not see... |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12538
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:04 pm: | |
quote:What firms would knowingly employ a Gannon-type if he carries around with him a reputation for dropping Easter eggs or time bombs into their IT? Who would ever trust him?
Perhaps they shouldn't trust anyone, because while I advocate anyone working against the excesses and abuses of the corporate capitalist system...I am not the one they should fear.
At least not for the reasons you suggest... |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 319
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:05 pm: | |
Contract workers pay 100% of their Federal taxes and SS, as ProfScott says, but are allowed more in tax deductions, such as mileage, home office allowance, cell phone, etc. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12540
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:11 pm: | |
Jcole,
I still argue that they are not seeing the whole picture...employers have to 'match' the federal withholding amounts, and that is a doubling of the tax.
You see your apparent salary or hourly wage, and the deductions from that, but do NOT see what your hiring agency has to pay on top of that.
You will also never see what the corporation is truly paying for your job, either...what gets skimmed off the top by these private jobs firms.
If I am wrong, I'll eat these words, but when I was investigating being an employer, that was the case. Federal matching of the employees withdrawal, owed by the company and not allowed to be made known to the employees.
Come ON, there has to be someone with accounting that can clear this up...how many of you ever knew about those Visa and MC charges...or the equipment and monthly fees associated with using them at retail...but are willing to bitch up a storm when a place decides to buck the system and be cash only.
Cheers! |
Izzadore
Member
Username: Izzadore
Post Number: 132
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:13 pm: | |
quote:
Contract workers pay 100% of their Federal taxes and SS, as ProfScott says, but are allowed more in tax deductions, such as mileage, home office allowance, cell phone, etc.
You speak of corp-to-corp workers. Most of us don't actually do this. Also, tax law doesn't allow you to deduct any of this if you are at the clients location a certain percentage of the time.
People still do, because they think that corp-to-corp allows this but it is an audit risk. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:13 pm: | |
Nobody pays for the employee's FIT except the employee. The Professor's wife, who spent a few years managing a payroll office, confirms this. Not sure what the source of contrary info is.
BTW, retailers can certainly tell customers what it costs to accept cards, but can't pass it on. When the Prof was in the restaurant biz way back he was paying 3% to MC/Visa and 5% to AmEx. There are, of course, stores which have "minimum purchases" to accept cards, which also violates the merchant agreement. Just BTW. Not sure how debit works because that didn't exist at that stop on the Way Back Machine. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 321
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:16 pm: | |
Gannon, that may be true if you go through a hiring agency, but I don't. |
Izzadore
Member
Username: Izzadore
Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:18 pm: | |
quote:You see your apparent salary or hourly wage, and the deductions from that, but do NOT see what your hiring agency has to pay on top of that.
That's true. Also, people who forgo W2 status kinda still go through a third-party i.e: Aerotek (if they are still around.) That third-party still bills for your services but gives you a discounted rate equal to whatever they were willing to pay + %15 (or thereabouts.)
Sorry, I had to adjust my parens...
(Message edited by izzadore on April 24, 2008) |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12541
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:23 pm: | |
Everything I'm searching so far does not indicate that I'm right on the Federal Taxation requirements from employers, but I'm still looking.
It may not be a match...and I might have it confused with the FICA and Medicare stuff.
Where are the accountants who do this stuff? We're anonymous here, you can talk freely!
Cheers |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:24 pm: | |
I had an interesting offer from a contract house to go work in IA where instead of paying me per diem they would pay me a set hourly rate and allow me to declare a portion of that as the per diem. That per diem rate would not be taxed, and OT would be paid at time and a half on the taxed portion only. I suspect this would open up a huge can of worms at tax time. I understand the food and living expenses would be tax deductible. But what if the amounts don't meet up to what I was paid, either over or under, then what? |
Defendbrooklyn
Member
Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 831
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:26 pm: | |
Buy Chrysler why? |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3380
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:27 pm: | |
The HB-1 fiasco notwithstanding, why would anyone wany to go into IT with a company like Chrysler pulling a stunt like this?
I realize that they'll probably be doing a lot of remoting into other people's PC to fix problems, but there is something to be said for having someone onsite to fix problems that come up.
This sounds like one of those penny-wise, pound-foolish "solutions" |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12542
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:28 pm: | |
Didn't see your post Professor, I'll side with your wife on this, reluctantly.
The 3 and 5 were certainly the old rules...that has largely been deregulated now, with a plethora of firms vying for any retailer's business...claiming low per-incident charge but MORE than making up for it in equipment leasing and monthly minimum fees.
It is usually best to stick with the company's local bank...but I've heard of some refusing to let some smaller companies on the credit card bandwagon because of their low average tickets...or, here comes the good one...because of THEIR credit rating! |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 770
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:39 pm: | |
Or, Professor, you bury it. It's better to not tell - as the credit card, not cash, is now the standard method of purchase.
Contract employment as it's normally implemented around here is a complete joke. You're not a contractor if you're going to work there every day, have set hours, and in most cases, it's their only "client" and you have only one source of income.
You would be a contractor if you had multiple clients, multiple sources of income - work on a project for a couple weeks or something, as well as say subcontracted some stuff out to others on occasion. In short, acting as a business would. But that isn't most situations in the automotive and IT sectors right now.
However, the law is bent like crazy and it's now standard practice. There would be such an uprising in the business community if there was a crackdown - and lots of politicians would stop getting checks.
MCP - The fact is fewer and fewer US folks are going into IT in college and otherwise for that exact reason, and if they are, they're going to start 10-person shops and do web apps. Our national personnel crunch is getting worse in that area - and putting more stress on H1-Bs as well as encouraging more outsourcing. For instance, I know a company that needs a bench tech and a sharepoint expert desperately but simply cannot find them.
Vicious little cycle.
(Message edited by digitalvision on April 24, 2008) |
Izzadore
Member
Username: Izzadore
Post Number: 134
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 2:58 pm: | |
quote:sharepoint expert desperately but simply cannot find them.
That's cause Sharepoint suxx!
Just Kidding. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6711
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 3:27 pm: | |
Professorscott, I think you are mixing up "self employed" with "IT Contractors". Most (but not all) IT contractors work for a contracting company, such as Compuware, EDS, etc. Contract workers who work for a contract company receive the same payroll deduction services as permanent employees, just from a different source. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 328
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 3:44 pm: | |
A contract worker is just someone who is contracted to come in an do a specific job, usually short term, but they can grow into months if not years. Some use a Contract house, others are self employed. it's easier to work for a house. they worry about the taxes, etc for you. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12545
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 3:48 pm: | |
DV is talking about the actual definition of an employee versus a contractor...it is really a huge deal.
What he says is the law, if it turns into a regular position, it needs be dealt with accordingly...they are treading some dangerous water here, as he warns. |
Bobceng
Member
Username: Bobceng
Post Number: 58
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 4:02 pm: | |
Cheer up, all. Countries like China, Malaysia, etc. are rapidly developing middle classes of their own. The other day, I read where unionization and labor slowdowns are beginning to occur in some of these countries, too. Once again, Americans think we've got a monopoly on everything; believe me, the Chinese, Indians and Malaysians already want to live their own version of the American Way of Life; it's human nature to want more. Eventually, when Corporations finally run out of "fresh-meat" countries to exploit, the last source of cheap, Third-World labor will be...the USA! Wait a few years, and Industry will begin sending us all those jobs that the pudgy, beer-swilling spoiled Asian workers will no longer want to leave their StrataLoungers or vacation homes to do. All we gotta do is keep breathing, stay educated and wait for the tables to turn. I doubt there are too many other options at this point. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12549
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 4:35 pm: | |
Well, there IS the whole eat, drink, buy, shit and sleep part you've left out of your plan.
Kinda tough to do when you're flat broke and homeless and all stressed out. |
Bobceng
Member
Username: Bobceng
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 5:35 pm: | |
Gannon: I just KNEW I was in trouble when I saw that the next post was yours.
Yeah, there is the "but what do we do until THAT happens" part I neglected to mention....
and, yeah, I realize that practical life trumps glittering generalities every time. But, as depressing as the devolution of our City and economic prospects has been, I was hoping, however to offer a longer view of where this out-sourcing at Chrysler might ultimately lead. Yup, I'm stressed and depressed a LOT lately, too, and worry about whether I'm going to have my job next year (DPS is "right" sizing too). I find some degree of relief in trying to visualize how America, and Detroit might end up re-inventing itself. Right now, this is all we've really got, and we are going to have to heavily invest a LOT of thought in where we go from here. God knows, our political leaders are stuck in "business as usual" mode, and won't do a damn thing until WE tell them what needs to be done. WE had better be prepared to tell them something, and soon. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 449
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 8:20 pm: | |
Bobceng makes a valid point. I like his perspective. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 5201
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 9:33 pm: | |
One of the sources of future regret for a company making these wholesale changes is the inadvertent loss of top talent and unanticipated cost of retraining new talent.
I see Thecarl's http://tcs.com link goes to Tata Consultancy Services. Isn't Tata going into auto manufacturing? Is Chrysler hiring their competitors? How does that play out? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 6005
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:06 pm: | |
Tata bought Jaguar from Ford. |
Wash_man
Member
Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 745
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:15 pm: | |
Tata also owns INCAT, already a major player in the CAD business in the Detroit area.
http://www.incat.com/Global/pr ess_room.html |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 113
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:30 pm: | |
Tata isn't 'going into' auto manufacturing - they have been building cars in India for quite a while. They are a large industrial conglomerate, so they do other things, too. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1241
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:21 pm: | |
gnome spewed:
quote:
TheCarl, you almost make sense then you throw poo in the punchbowl with this legacy drivel. I mean I'm with you 100% with the whole keeping American jobs for Americans thing. Even the rant about the fatcats is cool; then, the legacy log of poo. A huge stinking log right in the punch bowl. And then you know what's worse? huh?
You start dancing on that legacy log! Like a fricking lumberjack in hobnail boots, you're out there spinning that thing all around, frothing up the bowl and...
...making the sane world sick.
gnome, lay off the selective quoting and cliches provided for your own amusement. i'm sure you have something intelligent to offer beyond your hackneyed retorts. get past the snarky satisfaction you provide yourself when you hit the enter key.
edited to add: polite conversation does not require your infantile fascination with scatalogical similies. if you're so obsessed with feces and people dancing on it and poop in punchbowls, you'll find a welcome peer group at alt.flame.
(Message edited by thecarl on April 25, 2008) |
Jrvass
Member
Username: Jrvass
Post Number: 625
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:23 pm: | |
I've been way ahead of the curve on Tata. I heard it on a Johnny "Guitar" Watson album 30+ years ago...
"I wanna Tata you baby! Thank you!..." |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1242
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:32 pm: | |
quote:Will the Indian replacements be located in Auburn Hills? Will they bring large families who can soak up the oversupply of housing?
What does an employer hold over your head in order to get you to train your replacement?
i'm not sure where new employees will reside, but where are the soon-to-be-former employees who will have their lives disrupted, and face the whole slew of family hardships in the process? economic hardship, loss of children's tuition, retirement funding, health care, credit default, foreclosure, financial stress on marriage, etc.
what does the employer hold over one's head to induce training of the replacement? everything mentioned above, for starters. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:40 pm: | |
livernoisyard wroteth:
quote:If an employee can quit at will, why cannot a business terminate at will? Methinks, employees who think that way are being selfish. Not that being selfish is necessarily bad. However if a business is "selfish," then automatically it's bad.
your generalization seems reasonable, but think about it in the context of a large multinational organization. major companies are big ships which can plow through rough seas. individual employees are more often little guys battling the same seas in a rowboat.
the implied reciprocity of your statement is greatly flawed. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1244
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:46 pm: | |
quote:So, if we can sell in foreign markets, why can't foreign companies bid on services? It's a global economy now, and you need to adapt or die. Kvetching (unless you're a blogger) doesn't make food appear on a table or a bank account get larger.
digitalvision, when you say if "we" can sell in foreign markets, how much of "you" is part of "we?" does that make sense? in other words, how much is our government, and corporate america, making you a winning part of the "we" equation? |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1245
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:52 pm: | |
professorscott statethed:
quote:It reminds me of the Protestant pastor Martin Niemoller lamenting the loss of freedom in Nazi Germany: "First they came for the Communists, and I did not speak up because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak up because I was not a Jew... then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
pscott, there is a mix of what you have described, plus my emergence beyond naievity in its own right, and bringing a new child into the world, that have shaped my opinions. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:23 am: | |
quote:IT Professionals are expensive... We can only hope they don't ditch their engineers next...
there was a mass reduction in engineering staff in december, my contract house alone lost 144 people. now chrysler has picked up platforms from nissan, it's been front page news. |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:23 am: | |
sorry, they've been building trucks for decades, cars not so long. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1247
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:30 am: | |
jimaz, you have seen the writing on the wall! gold star on the forehead, my friend.
quote:I see Thecarl's http://tcs.com link goes to Tata Consultancy Services. Isn't Tata going into auto manufacturing? Is Chrysler hiring their competitors? How does that play out? |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:39 am: | |
digitalvision, thanks for the primer!
quote:Contract employment as it's normally implemented around here is a complete joke. You're not a contractor if you're going to work there every day, have set hours, and in most cases, it's their only "client" and you have only one source of income.
You would be a contractor if you had multiple clients, multiple sources of income - work on a project for a couple weeks or something, as well as say subcontracted some stuff out to others on occasion. In short, acting as a business would. But that isn't most situations in the automotive and IT sectors right now. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12554
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 7:42 am: | |
quote:Bobceng makes a valid point. I like his perspective.
I LOVE it...and was laughing as I posted that whole 'what we gonna do until then' reply!
Cheers, really |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 773
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 9:56 am: | |
Actually, I am benefiting in the "we." I know quite a few people, and businesses that are under 25 people, who benefit from the "we." Their companies and employees number in the thousands.
I have one friend who is having the best sales month they've ever had going to those places.
Another who has built a $3 million dollar a year business with globalization as a centerpiece of it.
Another one who does truck beds made here in the USA who's selling great to all kinds of markets right now, and had been even before the weakened dollar because they're the best.
Another who is selling hybrid technologies to the germans and japanese that has created a large, regionally-based supplier that is one of the strongest because instead of holding onto old technologies and saying the only people to sell to are the big three they've gone after what's growing and found markets to sell things to car owners in these areas that they want and can afford right now (kits that switch a stick to an auto) not to mention the hybrid technologies they have implemented.
But they didn't sit around and mope about it - they changed their processes and were well-positioned, knowing what was going to happen.
There are organizations who promote businesses in this area - who do trade missions for a very reasonable cost ($8k, which is nothing to have everything laid out for you) compared to what you get to China and other places. The companies that go on these trips are local, many times small businesses, that want to go global with their biz.
http://www.automationalley.com /autoalley/International+Busin ess+Center/Trade+Missions/Chin a+Vietnam+Trade+Mission.htm
I see a lot more bright than you guys do I guess, and I'm sure it's a matter of perspective. I see successful people every day in my life. I see people who have pulled themselves out of auto jobs to become successful financial advisors, technicians, marketing - and they key difference between all the people I see make it and the ones that don't is that they want to make it, and they're willing to put in the effort and energy to make it happen instead of complaining about it.
They got depressed - and then they decided to get energized about the opportunity that is ahead of them.
In some ways, this pain we're feeling now might be the kick in the pants our region needed for entrepreneurial action and creativity.
(Message edited by digitalvision on April 25, 2008)
(Message edited by digitalvision on April 25, 2008) |
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