Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » Precise location of Fort Detroit ? « Previous Next »
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Kennyd
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been interested in pinning down the location of Fort Detroit for a while now.
I found some old maps online, and if they're accurate, it would seem to be very near Joe Louis Arena, based on the width of the river and shoreline.
However I defer to abler historians and hope an active discussion will bring the facts forth.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe the original Fort Detroit measured 192 feet by 192 feet. The British built another fort--Fort Shelby (Fort Lernoult)--about a block closer to Fort Street, which the Americans renamed Fort Detroit.

Detroit filled in parts of the Detroit River downtown, placing the river further away from the fort's location today than originally.
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Jams
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fort and Shelby was the sw corner.

The shoreline is radically different from the time of Cadillac.

I don't have it stored on this computer, but there is a map available on line that shows Cadillac's grants overlaid with the current (or recent) grid.

With that we were able to discern a friend of mine whose ancestor had one of the plots, currently partially an alley.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which Fort Detroit, though? The French fort that was also known as Fort Detroit, for short, was further south of the larger fort.
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Rugbyman
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hope this isn't too much of a thread jack, but would you mind posting that map sometime, Jams? I did a quick Google search and came up dry. It's funny you bring that up- when we were down on the riverfront Friday I was just thinking what the original river looked like.
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Jcole
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/ ENGLISH/exhibits/franco_ontari an/big/big_36_map_detroit_rive r.htm
I don't think this is the map that Jams is talking about, but it gives and idea of the river front in 1764
Here is a link to a Detroit history site with several maps of the original plans
http://www.historydetroit.com/maps.asp
You may have to copy and paste this one.


(Message edited by jcole on April 13, 2008)
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Eastsiderules
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Post Number: 70
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit or Fort Détroit was a fort established by the French officer Antoine de la Mothe Cadillac in 1701. The location of the former fort is now in the city of Detroit in the U.S. state of Michigan, an area bounded by Larned Street, Griswold Street, and the Civic Center.
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Patrick
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember reading a quick snippet about a small outpost/stockade east of the main fort. It was abandoned by the mid 1850s and the local children referred to it as (I think) Fort Unnecessary but I cannot remember when I read it. It was most likely in the History of Wayne County or History of Detroit by Silas Farmer.

If you want to see what the Detroit side looked like in the 1700’s, look no further than Squirrel and Walpole Island(s). Go to Harsens Island and look across the South Channel and that is exactly what Detroit looked like back then. The Canadian side has a gently sloping rise starting right after an abrupt “mini cliff” of sorts at the shoreline.
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Patrick
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A lot of the timber used to build the French settlements was local. However, the British sought larger trees so they scouted timber on the Michigan side just beyond Port Huron.
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Alley
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Post Number: 170
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cool map Jcole!
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Patrick
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Off the top of my head…

-Fort Detroit or Fort Ponchartrain du Detroit??? Is there a difference?
-Brits take control of Detroit-Did they rename it???
-Fort Lernoult-Built in 1779
-Renamed Fort Shelby in 1804 or 1805
-Surrendered to British in1812-Not sure if the Brits renamed it….
-Taken back by Americans in 1813 and renamed Fort Shelby again
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Bigb23
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to threadjack, but the author Allen W. Eckert writes narrative novels with highly accurate footnotes on present day locations pertaining to the story. The best one for this area is "The Conquerors" -


"Volume III of The Winning of America (Narratives of America) Series. This volume of the continuing historical narrative series chronicles the movement of the British into the great Northwest after ousting the French in the French and Indian War. At first the Indians welcomed the whites, but the hatred of the British commander, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, for the Indians and his harsh and unfair treatment of them caused anger to rise among the tribes to the point that a confederation of tribes was formed under the leadership of Chief Pontiac of the Ottawas. In spring of 1763, in a synchronized movement, war parties of Indians struck simultaneously at every northwestern fort occupied by the British and they captured them all except one, Detroit. That bastion was placed under siege by Pontiac and his warriors and it lasted until the following October. This is the story of the events leading up to the siege of Detroit, the siege itself , and its aftermath."

http://www.allaneck.com/public ations.html
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 5875
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The first Fort Detroit measured 192 feet by 192 feet. Later, its dimensions were approximately doubled, quadrupling its former size.

The British captured and abandoned it, making it the role model for thousands of such future abandonments. Apparently, no preservationists then wanted it brought back to its former state [my version...]

The British built their own on slightly higher ground and that fort had at least three names, the last being Fort Detroit or the Detroit Arsenal.

As a result of a treaty or other agreement with the British, the Americans then agreed to not build or occupy a fort any closer than ten miles from downtown. Hence, the location for the "new" fort in Dearborn.
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Alan55
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting map - I didn't know that "Ecorse" Creek was an original French name.
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The best resource to check is Frontier Metropolis
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Alan55
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Post Number: 1513
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is an interesting website that has a couple of early maps:



http://www.detroithistorical.o rg/learningcenter/curriculumma terials/detroitsstory/b2.pdf
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Indians were primarily neutral in their relations with whites, as then they could play one side against the other. [The Detroit French farmers acted likewise. Few whites outside of Detroit trusted them...]

The Iroquois Oneida Indians who resided in the much older region around Green Bay (settled starting in 1634, making Green Bay 67 years older than Detroit) particularly had a habit of raiding the Detroit area.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 142
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Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rivière aux Écorces, means the "bark river"
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Eastsiderules
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Username: Eastsiderules

Post Number: 73
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God you people are idiots! There is a fucking historical marker in front of whatever the former Ponchartrain hotel is named today.The friggin fort was there. That was where Cadillac landed. Don't you remember the reenactment in July 2001, the 300th anniversary of tis city's founding? (NOOO it wasn't Coleman Young who founded it)
What in the fuck did you people learn in school in this state? Don't you know your own history?
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Eastsiderules
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Username: Eastsiderules

Post Number: 74
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 2:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread reminds me of the idiot who saw the old topographical maps of Detroit posted and thought there were still rivers flowing beneath the streets of Downtown.
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Lilpup
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 4:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^That was Fort Pontchartrain - two later maps show "Fort Detroit" but most often it was merely called 'the fort at Detroit'.

Fort Lernoult was built by the British 1778/9 and formally renamed Fort Detroit by the US in 1805. After the Americans retook it from the British in 1813 it was renamed Fort Shelby. The historical marker is at Fort and Shelby.

Most frequently the name "Fort Detroit" turns up in War of 1812 history, which would be referring to the renamed Fort Lernoult.

(Message edited by lilpup on April 14, 2008)
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Bigb23
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastsiderules -
For gods sake, this is JUST a discussion forum with different ideas and ways to discuss them. We find our researched facts and post them here for the benefit of others.

I hope that you are not a teacher.
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Crew
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Post Number: 1422
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey rules, time to go back on your meds.
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Bigb23
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Post Number: 1182
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The guy must of had a crappy time at the bar last night!
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Bobzilla
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was renamed Fort Shelby because after Detroit surrendered to the Brits in 1812, an army marched up here in 1813 under the command of General Isaac Shelby. (So says the historical marker about "Fort Lernoult" which is at the SW corner of Fort Street and Shelby.)

That fort was razed in 1826, though an outpost may have stood longer as suggested by Patrick.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It was renamed Fort Shelby because after Detroit surrendered to the Brits in 1812, an army marched up here in 1813 under the command of General Isaac Shelby. (So says the historical marker about "Fort Lernoult" which is at the SW corner of Fort Street and Shelby.)

That fort was razed in 1826, though an outpost may have stood longer as suggested by Patrick.

The historical marker shows the approximate size and location of Fort Lernoult. But, that Fort was the second Fort Detroit and it didn't go by Fort Detroit for most of its existence. Fort Lernoult/Shelby/Detroit (old Detroit Arsenal) wasn't torn down until 1831 or 1832, a bit before the newer Detroit Arsenal was built, starting in 1833 in Dearborn, ten miles to the west, as per an agreement with the British (in Canada). Apparently, there were some accounts as to the second Fort Detroit being referred to as the Detroit Arsenal prior to its razing in the early 1830s. However, the Dearborn fort was usually referred to as being the Detroit Arsenal.

At that time, Governor Cass had seen to it that the Indians were sent packing west of the Mississippi and away from Detroit. Hence, there was little need for the fort in the city of Detroit any longer.

Fort Detroit more often was the name given to the two French forts built near Wayne/Washington (where Cadillac landed). Many of the early ribbon farmer families lived within the walls of that fort, in the typical European tradition for farmers to live in villages.
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's going a long way back, but my great-great-great grandfather was part of the force that invaded and occupied Detroit in 1812, under General Brock. :-)
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Bigb23
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good thread - lets keep it going! Are there any original fort artifacts on display in the area?
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my childhood, I can remember there was a miniature model of the fort on display at the Detroit Historical Museum. It was fun to see Detroit as a humble little fortified town with crazy little buildings and streets.
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Bigb23
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It still is :-)
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Kennyd
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to everyone for their info - The overlayed maps of Fort Detroit were just what I had been looking for.
The info on Fort Lernoult was also good.
Anyone have a pic of the historical marker at the Ponchartrain?
One of the above links to maps shows a cemetery about in the middle of Griswold between Jeff & Larned. I wonder what became of it?
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Crystal
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 6:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Historical marker at the Pontchartrain:

http://www.waymarking.com/waym arks/WM1JJ1

http://www.michmarkers.com/Pag es/S0027.htm

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/hi storic/districts/fort_pontchar train.pdf
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Jcole
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KennyD,
Check out this link regarding the cemetary on Jeff and Larned. It was French Detroit's 1st cemetary.
http://www.allbusiness.com/nor th-america/united-states-michi gan-metro-areas-detroit/810203 -1.html
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Gnome
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Post Number: 1064
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1807 map of detroit from Wayne State photo archives

map of detroit 1807
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The British buried their soldiers just outside the fort by the west side of it.
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Scottr
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

gnome, keep in mind that's only a plan (best known as the Woodward Plan or sometimes the Governor and Judges' plan), not an actual map. not all of it was ever implemented.
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Macknwarren
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kennyd,

You need this booklet: "Detroit, Fort Lernoult, and the American Revolution," by Philip P. Mason.
Wayne State University Press, 1964.

It has a superb and authoritative map of the British fort that is on a clear page that is overlain (overlaid?) on the current street map of downtown. It's available at the WSU library, and certainly the Burton.
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Gnome
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

in lilpup's post there is a link to a drawing of detroit in 1820. pretty interesting.
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Kennyd
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Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is what i came up with as to the fort's location. Thanks for the great help.


Fort Detroit

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