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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 624
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AlsoDave,

I stuck around because I was on my way to a bar in downtown to watch a basketball game. I walked outside the bar, ready to peacefully walk back to my apartment and the cops were already firing tear gas. I didn't even get a chance to "riot" if I had even wanted to. I was too busy gagging on tear gas.

Also, Sparty06 makes an excellent point about how many MSU alumni still harbor ill will towards the MSUPD and ELPD. I'm going to be 27 years old this month and I haven't been a student at MSU since I graduated in 04. I STILL don't like the cops there. And no matter how nicely Gnome wants to portray these "heroic" guys who only want to "go home and kiss their babies", the reality is that these are essentially small town cops with nothing to do because of the low violent crime rate who love the flex their muscle show how "tough" they are.

The only MSUPD or ELPD officer I got to know personally was a guy who was cheating on his wife and infant child by banging my best friend's fiance's friend who went to school at MSU. He wasn't going home to kiss any babies that's for sure.

All this being said. Any person who was throwing things at the police or was otherwise committing a violent crimes DESERVES what they got and should get the book throwing at them. I hope nobody has been thinking I have been saying the violence was necessary. It isn't. the point that I'm trying to make is that if the police and the community in general did not take such a heavy handed approach with addressing the student population then perhaps the attitude that the students (and recent alumni)have towards the city would not be so explosive. Better communication and an environment of greater mutual respect must be enacted or incidents like this will continue to flare up every few years.
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Sparty06
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Username: Sparty06

Post Number: 80
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

El_jimbo, I agree with a lot of what you've said. It's just hard to explain to people who haven't lived in East Lansing how horribly the MSUPD and ELPD treat the students... people just don't want to believe it. I reject any violence and rioting like what took place in Cedar Village but I really think these problems are caused in part by the police.
For example, I've lived in Madison, Wisconsin for a couple years and things are so much different there. It's not like MSU students are the only ones in the nation who want to party outside... yet why are they always getting tear gassed and riots declared. In Madison, they have a halloween party in which over 100,000 (yes that's right, 100,000) people congregate and things don't go nearly as badly. Furthermore, the police are just constantly cracking down on students and partying in East Lansing. During my time in Madison students almost had to try to get a party ticket. When police showed up they cared about littering and people throwing beer cans, not someone playing beer pong on their front porch. Again, I'm having a hard time explaining the ill will I feel towards the ELPD but if I had more time I think contrasting places like Columbus and Madison to East Lansing would really be a helpful exercise.

Unfortunately, because of the ill will most MSU students feel towards the city government and police most would never consider staying there after graduation. EL is missing out on 5,000 young professionals a year who might choose to remain in EL and call it home because of the way they treat those people while they're students. It's funny, because while Detroit is dying to attract and retain young professionals (realizing how vital they are to the economy) East Lansing is pushing them away.

(Message edited by sparty06 on April 07, 2008)
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2183
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You mean those other Big Ten cities where tear gas had to applied against an unruly mob(which is riot in case you didn't know).

Honestly, I don't care how poor you think you were treated. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior and making excuses for it is even worse.

The police in the area are no different than the police in any other college town. Obviously it appears just more idiots attend MSU or like to visit MSU to partake in such events.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 625
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sj,

Perhaps it has more to do with the tactics police employ rather than the students. I am willing to bet that for the most part, the students in East Lansing are no different than the students in Madison, Columbus, Ann Arbor or anywhere else. The difference is how the police chose to control the crowd.

Perhaps the ELPD should talk to the Madison police and other college town police forces in a best practices study in order to find out how they are able to handle the situation.

It doesn't take an idiot to realize that SOMETHING is wrong. It isn't normal for a group to have large civil disturbances on such a regular basis. Perhaps we should investigate the causes of this behavior in hopes of preventing the next one. However, it doesn't appear that the ELPD or city officials are interested in that. Apparently business as usual is ok for them. I bet it does wonders for job security.
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Sirrealone
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Username: Sirrealone

Post Number: 128
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It does sound like some cops are on a power trip, but maybe they have to be. This type of thing has happened so often, that it sounds to me like there's a 'no tolerance' policy. No tolerance to bull**it behavior. It makes me laugh because people complaining about the handling of past incidents can throw out a year, and there are a lot of years being tossed about! The cops have had to deal with this, it looks like, every 2-3 years.

So, would a 100,000 person party ever happen at MSU? No way. But when a crowd of 4% of that turns into this type of a mess time and time again.

Students have to earn the trust of the cops. And so far, history isn't showing that to have happened.
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Sparty06
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Username: Sparty06

Post Number: 81
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

_sj_, what's funny is that I've never once condoned the student behavior and if you actually took the time to read my posts I've explicitly rejected the CedarFest behavior. Yet for some reason you think I'm "making excuses" for student behavior because I point out how horrible the ELPD treats the students and how unwise the EL city council's approach to growth has been. And to respond to your post, the police in East Lansing absolutely are different than police in other college towns and I think the results speak for themselves.

(Message edited by sparty06 on April 07, 2008)
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Sparty06
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Username: Sparty06

Post Number: 82
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sirrealone,
Practically speaking, the cops have to earn the trust of the students and not the other way around. Most students are in EL 4-5 years and this prevents them from becoming organized enough to really "earn the trust" of the cops. The crowd of students is constantly changing. Additionally, the students have other priorities like school while the police's job is to be focused on the community.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2185
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It wasn't directly solely at you Sparty06.

quote:

Perhaps the ELPD should talk to the Madison police and other college town police forces in a best practices study in order to find out how they are able to handle the situation.



With tear gas.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 627
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sirrealone,

It is more than just the cops. Cops are assholes in lots of communities. It is the overall unwelcome feeling that longtime residents and the city government have toward students and recent graduates.

As I said before, there is clearly something wrong going on in East Lansing. However, instead of trying new tactics to try and reduce the violence or to prevent it from even happening, police and city officials, like idiots, simply resort to the same tactics every time.

I also am appalled at the violent behavior that was on display by a small minority of people there the other night. They deserve to and should be punished. However, anyone should be able to recognize that something is occurring in East Lansing that makes peaceful people like me agitated and non-peaceful people violent.
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Deteamster
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Username: Deteamster

Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is East Lansing. Not Apartheid South Africa. There is real injustice in the world, and it is not a bunch of frat boys getting their Sparty hats handed to them for throwing beers at the police.
Something wrong in East Lansing? What are you proposing, that the citizens and authorities are mentally ill? Are they just naturally disposed to violence? I refuse to believe their attitudes were created out of a vacuum. Given the laundry list history of student behavior at MSU, it is no wonder that the citizens are wary of the students.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 628
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sj,

please re-read the original mention of Madison and how the police control the crowd there because your comprehension of that post is poor. What Sparty06 said was that Madison police CAN control a crowd of 100,000 people without tear gas. ELPD CAN'T control a crowd of 4,000 without tear gas.

Perhaps there is a lack of expertise and training in the ELPD, but there has got to be a reason that the ELPD can't control a crowd peacefully when another college town's police force can control a crowd 25 TIMES as large.

Sadly, in a few years, when this happens again, the police will go straight for the tear gas again.
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Sparty06
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Username: Sparty06

Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deteamster,
But why does the laundry list history exist in East Lansing and not other college towns like Columbus, West Lafayette, Madison etc. I don't believe students are any different in Columbus, Madison than East Lansing. My answer is that it has something to do with police enforcement tactics and the way students are treated by the city government.

I guess what el_jimbo and I are saying is yes, absolutely punish idiots who are throwing beer cans at police and engaging in riotous behavior. But we want to look at the underlying issues that cause these disturbances on such a frequent basis in East Lansing. Nobody is saying that police shouldn't contain a riot or those who engaged in riotous behavior shouldn't be punished (they should). We're just asking why it is that MSU keeps having these riot problems to begin with.
I think part of the answer to that question is the way the police respond every time MSU students gather in large groups (also the way the police and city council treat students on a regular basis). You have to see this riot in the context of the 2005 disturbances when students were tear gassed leaving bars or walking down the street to get snacks at 711. There is still a lot of resentment in the community towards the police from that situation. In fact, in 2005, I think the police spent close to $100,000 dollars and only 8,000 worth of damage was done to the city. $4,000 dollars of the 8k worth of damages was a stolen duck statue that later turned up in an Ann Arbor dorm. So police overreaction and suppression of legitimate student activity creates the environment in which an otherwise peaceful assembly turns violent and destructive.

(Message edited by sparty06 on April 07, 2008)
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 629
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deteamster,

Correct. Attitudes were not created in a vacuum. That is true for both sides. the students attitudes towards the city were formed for a reason as well.

I also agree that there is real injustice in the world and you seem to think that everyone who was there deserved what they got but trust me when I say that things look pretty different when you are the one peacefully walking out of a sportsbar to discover that the street you live on has become a war zone. When you a hemmed in on four sides by riot police so that you can't get home and you are laying fetal position in the middle of the street clawing at your eyes in a pool of your own vomit because you are choking so badly on the tear gas fumes. Until you are there, you won't fully get it.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 630
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sparty,

The police spent $190k back in 2005. Here's what Wikipedia has about the 05 riot.

"April 2, 2005: An estimated 2,000 students and non-students took to the streets immediately following the men's basketball team's loss to UNC in the final four, causing an estimated $8,275 in damage to the city of East Lansing and costing area law enforcement an estimated $190,389 in expenses. The April 2 event was marked by accusations of police abuse and mismanagement. Though large segments of the disturbance were documented on video, no specific acts of violence were seen until after tear gas was launched at the students. The City Council formed a commission to review the events. The commission declined to assess blame to the students and police by a 5-4 vote [3]."
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2186
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

please re-read the original mention of Madison and how the police control the crowd there because your comprehension of that post is poor. What Sparty06 said was that Madison police CAN control a crowd of 100,000 people without tear gas. ELPD CAN'T control a crowd of 4,000 without tear gas.



And neither could Madison as they routinely had police in riot gear throwing tear gas.

It took a fence, charging admission and limiting participation to stop the problem.
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Sparty06
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Username: Sparty06

Post Number: 85
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, here's a youtube clip of the Mifflin street block party in Madison last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =6CLWaApIX6g&eurl

There are more clips available but here the police response to a student block party was to shut down the street with police barriers and just let the students party without inciting things. When I was at MSU a block party would've been instantly shut down with plenty of arrests by the ELPD.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2187
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is last year, about 2-3 years after they had to institute those changes. Look for video form about 2000-2005. It will probably look similar to MSU.

In fact the comments from students all look eerily similar the the ones I have seen for this.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 632
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sparty,

I remember in the spring of 2001 there was a block party on Beal between Michigan and Grand River. The police sent in their mounted unit along with two squad cars and about 10 officers on foot. They formed a line at the intersection of Grand River and Beal and then started marching down Beal driving everyone off the block.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 696
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MSU has some serious issues with police student relations. Mostly both the students and police are too quick to jump the gun and neither is willing to wait to see what will happen in situations.
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Little_buddy
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Username: Little_buddy

Post Number: 86
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe too many "students" have too little respect for the police, an anti-authourity mindset that gets passed down from year to year. How can some freshmen know what the police are like unless they are trained by upperclassmen on how to think about the police. The world owns these kid nothing, the police are there to keep law and order and to use force if these kids will not do the right thing. Most police already feel they have to kiss up to lawbreakers because of some rights violations they might be charged with if they don't. So why push their buttons? Are you telling me these kids, who are supposed to be so smart can't think of decent things to do with their lifes other than get drunk and bait the police? It is the job of the students to obey the law, act like adults and think things out before they act, isn't that part of being smart enough for collage? The police are not your parents, or your ministers or pastors. They are the people that will use force if needed if you do not want to do the right thing.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 6027
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

sn't that part of being smart enough for collage?



Collage isn't that hard, you just cut out pictures you like and glue them all onto a piece of construction paper.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 446
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So correct me if I'm wrong. This was at an apartment complex, not on some neighborhood pubic street? I can see why it got so crazy.

I wouldn't see any reason why this should have gotten this big on a public street otherwise.

We've held block parties here in AA such as the Walnut block party every fall. Thousands are invited, people start drinking and getting wild but the police are there before it gets too big, and force everyone to leave or else receive a citation or possible arrest.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 2208
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This happened on public streets its not really a complex its a small neighborhood filled with apartment buildings mostly inhabited by college students.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5800
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

So correct me if I'm wrong. This was at an apartment complex, not on some neighborhood pubic street? I can see why it got so crazy.

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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 633
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Little buddy,

Most of the time, the goal is never to bait the police...although in the case of the recent Cedarfest, that DEFINITELY was the case. The students should be embarrassed. However, as Sparty06 and myself have tried to point out is that this incident does not exist in a vacuum. There is a lot of bad blood between students and the police that has built up over a variety of smaller incidents over the years. I'm sure there are seniors on campus who are still bitter over what happened in 2005 when the police instigated that riot.

Also, as far as your "freshman have been trained by the upperclassmen" comment, I would also disagree with that. Those freshman are less than a month away from being done with their first year. They've had plenty of time to experience the relationship between the police and the students.
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Kid_dynamite
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Username: Kid_dynamite

Post Number: 493
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a crock. Blame can be shared with the ELPD about their treatment of students? Meh.

I graduated in 2000 from MSU. I experienced 3 disturbances. The Gunson St riot of 98?, and the basketball riots of 99 and 2000. I witnessed it firsthand. There was the same argument back then for the unrest that I am reading here today. That lame excuse existed before my time, as well. There were a few large scale incidents in the early 90's, and throughout the 80's during the heyday of the annual Cedar Fest. History repeats itself.

The cops deserve no blame for what happened this past weekend. None. This "bad blood" exists because highly intoxicated students have run amok time and time again.

The cops arent going to change. They are always going to be there doing their job the way they should be doing it.

If MSU doesn't want the exact same story in the headlines 3 years from now, something about it's culture needs to be tweaked.
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Rushbuzz1013
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Username: Rushbuzz1013

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I asked my MSU' student son if he was anywhere near this fracas. He said "Hell No! I was tear gassed once before." I was more disturbed than relieved. "I was tear-gassed once before" shook me....like it was a new challenge that everyone faces at least once in their lives. $13k per year and surviving tear gassing is part of the curriculum.
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Jrvass
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Username: Jrvass

Post Number: 619
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someday I'll need to put up a pic of Mom as a student at MSU in 1949.

A hell of a difference, then to now.

I used to work in Okemos. The residents hate the students. Commuters loved looking at the coeds. But they went home at night & weekends, and didn't vote locally.
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 1942
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Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was there in 2005. The whole night there was a weird feeling in the air the whole night. The party I was at erupted after the game into an all out brawl to which I excused myself. I stayed far away from the chaos but I remember returning to Cedar Village and the chaos was gone before 2 am. I feel like it is expected of the students to riot and it is expected of the cops to toss the gas. Needless to say the kids at MSU today are immature and so caught up in the drinking lifestyle that they forget you can get drunk and still be friendly.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 383
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Needless to say the kids at MSU today are immature and so caught up in the drinking lifestyle that they forget you can get drunk and still be friendly.



Oh my god... how about everyone take a deep breath, climb down off the holier than thou pedestal, and gain a little perspective. First of all, the 25,000+ other students that live in EL, on campus, or around MSU found something else to do Saturday night. Of the 4000 standing around watching(no doubt an inflated number if the ELPD had anything to do with he estimate) maybe a hundred made some stupid decisions. Of the 100 or so, most were arrested on Saturday and many more will be arrested and charged before the matter is closed. Party happened, it got out of control, ELPD crushed it (rightly or wrongly) and its over. Rest assured, the lives of those arrested and charged are now, and for the foreseeable future, ruined. they'll be paying for their stupidity for much longer than anyone here or elsewhere will remember the "riot".

This behavior (teenagers and young adults acting stupid) is not limited to MSU nor does it define MSU except to those that willfully ignore the facts or choose to paint with an exceedingly broad brush.

The histrionics in the media, here, and most notably, by our illustrious Governor is just ridiculous. Yeah, o.k. Jenny, some family in Kentucky saw that some drunk kids at MSU caused a ruckus so they aren't going to move to Michigan? Some head of an international conglomerate saw it on CNN and thought the same about relocating a portion of his business. Nothing about the Mayor of the signature city being indicted, an apparently insurmountable racial divide, a one state recession heading toward depression now that the rest of the country is catching its cold, collapsing infrastructure, an uneducated populace, or her complete abdication of any leadership on any issue during her tenure would play into any relocation decision? Nope, all of Michigan's image problems and challenges are laid at MSU's doorstep due to a singular incident at MSU that has apparently "tarnished the image of Michigan in the eyes of the nation." Gimmie a f'ing break. I'm surprised any UofM grad is allowing the governor to give MSU that much credit as being that influential.

It's just too bad it happened on a slow news weekend or this non-story would have been buried on page 10 where it belongs.
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 2968
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Makes me glad I went to Wayne State. Didn't have time for bullshit like that. And back in those days, "spring break" just meant I went from working part-time in the hardware store to full time for two weeks.

Cancun wasn't even invented then.
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Sparty06
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Username: Sparty06

Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray,
Sounds like fun! I never went on a spring break either because I usually worked through my spring break. I don't know what going to Wayne State has to do with spring break or "having time for bullsh*t like that". Last I checked, many of the students at CedarFest were Wayne State students and students from other universities.
MSU isn't like U of M, it's not a rich, east coast kids college. Students are from middle and lower class backgrounds and the vast majority didn't take part in the stupidity that was CedarFest.

(Message edited by sparty06 on April 08, 2008)

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