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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 10339
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh really, Gertrude & Fishtoes?

So what is the problem 4 generations later?

Surely plenty of idiots moved to the 'burbs. Were there riots in Dearborn? Livonia? Birmingham? Oak Park? Southfield? Novi? Northville? Ferndale? Grosse Pointe? Harper Woods?

How about that "murder capital" stuff? How much of that carried out to the 'burbs?

Detroiters have had it "their way" for 35 years. They've elected everyone, collected the taxes, ushered businesses in - and out - and run the show in all respects. Time to bury the lame excuses, give credit/blame where due, and try something new -

Like "it"
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Gertrude
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Username: Gertrude

Post Number: 72
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, I don't want to speak for Fishtoes2000 but what I meant is that the seeds for the decline of Detroit and many other industrial cities were sown long before their rapid declines in the 1970s. While not absolving individuals their individual responsibility to be decent citizens (which most people are), one can not ignore the fact that issues of class and race can handicap progress. Areas of concentrated poverty have higher crime rates because of their dysfunction. A constrained ability to pay is a constrained range of choices.

There's a lot of boneheads on all sides, Karl, and some of those boneheads probably have your "it".
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Gertrude
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Username: Gertrude

Post Number: 73
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz, welcome to the forum! I mostly lurk but sometimes I get a little talkative. :-)

I hear Houston is quite the place these days. Every place has its time and while Detroit's was a little further back in history, like you, I hope it can become something better and renew its glory.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5776
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why do Detroiters believe that Detroit might ever come back? There is literally so much of the US that has not been tapped. Vast parts of the US west of the Mississippi are still owned by the federal government also. Anywhere else other than Detroit makes far more sense than Detroit's rising from its ashes.

Besides, in another one or two human generations, every new building today will be old and probably dirty and any older one today will be ancient or nonexistent--another of a long series of parking lots.

One of the reasons that Detroit became important was its access to river shipping. Detroit's port went bankrupt recently due to little economic activity, and today that "revived" port doesn't amount to much of anything. Ditto for the rail or truck freight traffic. Much of that business goes through Detroit, not to Detroit.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I did not start this thread to bring up old, but apparently still festering racial tensions. I was just remembering a city I fell in love with years ago. We need to find a way to come together, if possible, and turn this city into something everybody can be proud of. I am so tired of the main stream media putting down Detroit. It has such great potential, and it CAN be done. Can't never could.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Gertrude!

LY, I really do believe Detroit can come back, and be better than ever! As far as the government property out west is concerned, much of it is desert, like 120 degrees in the shade, complete with rattlesnakes, Gila Monsters, scorpions, black widows and brown recluse spiders.
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Bigb23
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Username: Bigb23

Post Number: 1040
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz -

"Home is not where you live, but where they understand you - Christian Morganstern.

Welcome to the board.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 10340
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz, the "still festering racial tensions" you refer to are somewhat limited to black-on-black crime in Detroit. Because of this, others left decades ago.

Others may disagree as to the reason, but "they" are gone, and the city is 85-90% African American who seem to be intent on doing each other in. Mayors that crap on the electorate, citizens who kill each other at a higher rate than any other city in the nation, lousy schools with a sky-high dropout rate, and a "pregnancy-termination" rate of 58%.

It begins to make "120 degrees in the shade, complete with rattlesnakes, Gila Monsters, scorpions, black widows and brown recluse spiders" look like paradise in comparison.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 483
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz, This isn't about racial tensions and it's probably not even about your original post. It's about posts like Karl's that sound as if their exodus from the city left some sort of moral vacuum behind. However, they fail to acknowledge the generations' moral vacuum that fostered bigotry and intolerance, which clearly was a major cause for the rioting in Detroit.

Never been a fan of hypocrites.

I do have hope for the City of Detroit because I see more folks today proving far more tolerant and willing to work together on solutions. We have a generations placing a higher value on culture, history, diversity, and authenticity -- things you don't find much of in sprawling suburbs.

Detroit's not paradise nor was it ever. It's got enormous challenges, but it also has a lot of citizens working to make it a better place.
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 1454
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 1:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Mayors that crap on the electorate"

And yet, old man, you hero-worship a so-called president who craps on the whole country, particularly our service people, and the constitution to boot. Aren't you just a little bit red-faced over your own hypocrisy?

No, of course you aren't - and if you ever do feel pinges of shame, you just start to scream, "ABORTION! ABORTION! ABORTION!" until you feel better. Luckily, neo-cons like you are dinosaurs - your kind is rapidly going extinct.

At least you are good for a laugh while you are bellowing in your final throws.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5778
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Without hundreds of thousands of new jobs (really, it's that many), there is no sustainable way for metro Detroit to survive. The population would surely be much lower if it weren't for Detroit's relatively high percentage of home ownership. When their homes cannot sell at a favorable price, they are forced to stay.

Now, unfortunately, those with homes but little to insufficient income may have to abandon their homes due to their inability to sell them readily. At some point, a decision has to be made to work at a decent wage elsewhere or stay here, hoping that things will improve. Had they been renters instead, many of them would have fled Detroit earlier in their job search.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you BigB23!

I can't understand why people would want to do each other in. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I can see where KK is an embarassment. Lousy schools can be turned around, but not over night. A pregnancy termination rate of 58% is scary - it tells me life is not valued as it needs to be. But NOTHING is unfixable!

This forum is so valuable. There are so many caring, intelligent people gathered here. I feel it is a real honor to be part of it.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I must be living in a different Detroit than some of you guys. Detroit's been back for at least a couple years now.

I mean, I guess it depends on your definition of back. Is it when we have good schools, nice streetscaping, no more abandon skyscrapers, lower crime, nice roads, good politicians, or a better economy? At what point would one consider it to be back? I kind of choose to lean on the idea that it's strictly the attitude of the majority, and whether or not they are putting in work. I think that's why the Super Bowl, and other big events were such a big deal. Even though it didn't really help us with most of our problems it was a call to railly.

More importantly, I really think it has to do with a continuous rate of progress. Many ideas and projects don't always work out, but we aren't worse off because of their failure anymore. We've only been moving forward, and if we continue at this rate, we should be fine.

It's like that old song "The Gambler". Every hands a winner and a loser. If we can join together and continue to play our cards the way we have been the past couple years, we may just end up with Detroit's second golden age. The roaring twenties could possibly be only a decade away!

I know that I'm being very optimistic. I just really do believe that all we have to do is play the new cards were dealt wisely. I'm optimistic, but of course I know that this is all easier said then done. What will be really awesome, is if (and a big if) we can continue to move forward during this recession. Even if we only move forward an inch, that would be a powerful sign that Detroit and it's citizens may be on a new road.
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Snoringbeagle
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Username: Snoringbeagle

Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 6:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Talk about a deep subject.

The rise and fall of great cities.

You could spend so much time and still not have a complete grasp.

You would have to look at European and Asian examples to see how they differentiate from the American experience.

It ain't simple. Two points I see quickly is economic trade and geography.

(Message edited by snoringbeagle on April 06, 2008)

(Message edited by snoringbeagle on April 06, 2008)
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 481
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 6:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snoringbeagle....I can most-definitely relate to using the alley ways as a regular means to avoid random violence.

April 04, 1968 was a Thursday; there was much hell to pay for unwary (white) students, at several Detroit schools on Friday, April 05 - very nasty incidents reported at Mumford, Cooley, and Mackenzie....many more at neighboring junior high schools.
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Snoringbeagle
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Username: Snoringbeagle

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 7:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Like I said, Chuckjav, I was a poor dumb white ghetto rat back then. All the friends black and white that I had had seem to disappear for one reason or another.

Some left the area and some because it weren't fashionable to have a white friend because of peer pressure. Things did change as we kids got older and got caught up in "Adult Matters".
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 482
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right-On, Snoringbeagle...I know precisely what you mean; I echo your sentiments.

In my mind, the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a turning point in race relations; it was a polarizing event.

It was as if a switch had been thrown; a line had already been drawn....now, the line had been crossed.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear a lot of talk about white flight. Grandma Smith was forced out of the home she had lived in for years, on Archdale. Grandpa Smith, who had been the head gardener at Belle Isle, had died, and she was alone. When her new neighbors started moving in, like always, she'd bring over cakes, cookies and pies to welcome them into the neighborhood. Nobody was too interested in an old lady with a bright smile and a British accent, so she gave up trying to be a good neighbor and kept to herself. She couldn't imagine leaving her home. Then, one day, a brick came crashing through her window, a note attached to it. The note said basically, "sell your house and move away or we will burn this house down with you in it." Several houses had been torched in the area, so she figured they weren't joking. She sold the house for a little bit of nothing, and moved to Scottsdale, Arizona, where her daughter had retired several years ago.

She hoped that some day Detroit would rebuild. She knew she would not live to see it, but said that such a great city that she had loved so much and for so long, deserved better.
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 184
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Impressions of Detroit in the 1940's-

My Father was a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force during WWII stationed in Guelph. He and his friends would go to Detroit on leave rather than Toronto because Detroit was both livelier and friendlier he said. The D.S.R., for instance, was free for anyone wearing an allied service uniform. He met she, who was to become my mother, in a roller skating rink in Detroit.

After the War, they settled in Windsor until he lined up a job, in writing, in Detroit. At the time, carpenters were paid twice as much in Detroit as in Windsor.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 1171
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz, I'm so sorry for your mom. I do remember hearing those types of stories back when the City was changing. A horrible shame, really.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grandma Smith never quite got over it. But even so, she was more concerned for the city itself.

Do you live in the Ozarks? It's beautiful there, but the Ozarks have been getting some grizzly weather.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 1172
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is beautiful here. We have dodged the bullet through all of the storms.

Kind of on-topic; the older folks here talk about the 'old-days', and how the city (12,000) was sooo much better when it was smaller. And, God forbid we should vote the County wet! It will decidedly bring on the demise of everything! I'm guessing we all do that as time marches on.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 578
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I generally avoid debating Karl, as I find the experience comparable to that of head-butting a brick wall. I am now making an exception, as I find the question interesting and his answer lacking.
Here is what he had to say on the subject of Detroit's decline:
quote:

Detroiters have had it "their way" for 35 years. They've elected everyone, collected the taxes, ushered businesses in - and out - and run the show in all respects. Time to bury the lame excuses, give credit/blame where due, and try something new -

On its surface, this statement makes no sense. "Detroiters," meaning people who reside within the city of Detroit, have had it "their way" as regards city government for much, much longer than 35 years. As that 35-year time frame corresponds to the period during which the city has had a black mayor, I can only assume that by "Detroiters," Karl means "black Detroiters." As a white Detroiter, I take exception to the implication that Detroiters are black and suburbanites are white, but that is beside the point. The point is, "Detroiters" never ran the show at all.
Cities do not exist in a vacuum. They are influenced by a plethora of regional, state, national and global trends and policies. Successful cities are successful in part because those trends and policies favor their specific needs. Detroit is unsuccessful in large part because it is located in a region which does not support it, in a state which does not support urbanism in general, in a nation which does not prioritize the types of economic activity that sustained Detroit in its prime. Poverty, lack of education, criminal activity, poor city services, etc. are natural effects of being located in a declining city, not the cause of a city's decline. Naturally, those things exacerbate the decline and perpetuate the cycle, but they did not cause it.
I do not, however, mean to discount the actions of so many Detroiters to improve the city as futile or misguided. Such efforts have been the catalyst for what positive progress we have seen in recent years, and it would be ludicrous to sit around and wait for the federal government to bail us out. This town will never die as long as there are people who care, regardless of the massive odds against us. But blaming those who live in the city for everything that has gone wrong here is extremely naive and simplistic.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 10346
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bearinabox said:

"Poverty, lack of education, criminal activity, poor city services, etc. are natural effects of being located in a declining city, not the cause of a city's decline...."

Nonsense.

There is plenty of the above in thriving cities, and little of the above in some very poor cities/towns/villages.

It all starts in the home. By far, the most common reason for "poverty" is drug/alcohol use, and lack of fathers in the home.

Same for criminal activity.

Of course the town will never die - most don't - regardless of whether folks care or not.

But thrive? That's another thing altogether.

If Detroit had a low to non-existent crime rate and peaceful schools but was "sleepy" or "lower-middle class" I believe folks would flock there.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 579
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for missing the point. Enjoy your scorpions and Gila monsters.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 10347
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The most significant point in Gaz' original post is this:

"My husband and I had planned on making Detroit our home when he got out of the military, but three days after we came back, the riots broke out. He was disgusted, saying that Detroit would never be the same, and he didn't want to stay there.

Hubby was right, all those years ago. And he continues to be right today.

Got money and like living downtown? Great.

But want a neighborhood where you can keep up your place and so will the neighbors? Not have daily crime/drug deals? Hope to have your investment stay the same, maybe increase a bit?

Ain't gonna happen in the D.
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Softailrider
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Username: Softailrider

Post Number: 140
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After the 67 riot , almost the entire middle class moved out of the city . End of story . When you lose the middle class tax base you have very little left to work with . I remember SOME white flight before the riots , people in my NW side neighborhood moving to Oak Park , some to Southfield and other places north of the city , but it was nothing compared to after the uprising .It's my contention the riot killed the city , If there was no riot it would still be a livable place .
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1926
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Watch it Softailrider, some of your fellow members would argue that isn't the case. :-)

I agree, Detroit would just be a midwestern Philadelphia if it weren't for the riots.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My husbandsplit up in the 80's. He started to make decent money, and got caught up in drugs and partying. I couldn't hang with that kind of lifestyle at all. He died in Oregon just over a week ago of a heart attack (he'd had health problems since the late 80's/early 90's.

I just wonder if we had stayed (and others like us) would it have made a difference?
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 70
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 4:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This post kind of seems like a ramble, but that is because I'm coming from the strange notion that Detroit really is just a reflection of America as a whole.

Would it have made a difference? That is a very good question Gaz, one that no one can answer.

There are many above that seem to think the death of Martin Luther King Jr. had a big impact on Detroit. If that's true, then it can show you how one person (in this case James Earl Ray the assassin) can ruin so much for so many. Of course, Martin Luther King Jr. showed how much one person can do to improve this world. Would it have made a difference if you stayed? Maybe it all balances out, I don't know. I like to think yes, it would have made a difference. Otherwise we're all just victims of fate, who have no real affect on the world in which we live. Maybe we are just running on a treadmill, thinking we're going somewhere. I wish I knew.

If one person can't make a difference, then no one can make a difference, and we should forget that we already have created our dream castles in the sky, and stop attempting to build the foundations under them. Personally, the only reason I choose to be positive and continue to believe what we're doing matters; is because I am honestly to afraid of facing the alternative. That, and it is a good way to keep moving forward in a world that seems to constantly feel the urge to tell us the best time/way to be a quitter, and switch to the path of least resistence.


One other thing, I really think low crime, drug abuse (not to be confused with use), abortion, poverty (not to be confused with being low income), dropout rates, racism, and homelessness are all products of our actions. They are not the cause of are actions. The egg came first, and the egg is our worlds actions.

Sigh, one of these days we're going to run out of rhetoric and analogies. But until then:

"The battle is in our hands... The road ahead is not altogether a smooth one. There are no broad highways that lead us easily and inevitably to quick solutions. But we must keep going."

-Martin Luther King Jr.


It just seemed like a good place for this. From that quote and speech, he seemed to have thought that every single one of our actions mattered. Of course, maybe he was wasting his life trying to build his dream's foundation. Who really knows? Maybe he was just full of false hope. Maybe it doesn't matter what any of us do. Maybe this city really is just full of a bunch of people full of false hope and criminals (and when did criminals stop being considered peers and citizens? Was it when we started to judge and abandon them?).

I wish I had more answers. I wish I knew if the answers even mattered.


PS: Sorry about your loss, Gaz.

(Message edited by sean_of_detroit on April 07, 2008)
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had wanted to stay in Detroit. That's not what happened, though. I am hoping to find some answers for Detroit. I am beginning to see fragments, and now what is left is to piece it together and find other pieces to the puzzle.

Sorry about the rambling post. I had put in a lot of hours at work, and was kind of out of it.
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Lombaowski
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Username: Lombaowski

Post Number: 86
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"After the 67 riot , almost the entire middle class moved out of the city . End of story . When you lose the middle class tax base you have very little left to work with."

I think that the 1967 riot was the culmination of what was wrong with the city for so many years and it probably was just the last straw for most. The city was polarized and it was tense and a lot of people left. Why would they stay? Racial tensions and fear mongering was at an all-time high and real estate speculation which was prominent in the 1950s exploded after the riots as a lot of really unscrupulous people wanting to make a buck made sure whites were given the feeling that if the riots could spread that far west and north, it was only a matter of time before they came to your neighborhood.

Another factor was the lack of strong ethnic enclaves and I’m talking square mile ethnic enclaves like in Chicago, New York, and Boston not square block enclaves. Since Detroit was a city where people settles based on where they worked not where their “people” were most neighborhoods were German, Irish, Polish, Italian and whatever else. The flight in the 50s would have happened anyway as people wanted more space but the flight in the 60s could have been mitigated if Detroit had large swaths of neighborhoods where people were all from the same backgrounds. That’s my opinion anyway. The flight in the 70s was due to the riots, the racial tensions, and the thought (correct in retrospect) that if you didn’t get out now you’d never get out because your house would be worth nothing later. The pre riot flight, the riots, and then the absolute fear of living with blacks after sent the whites who had stayed through the 1960s into the suburbs for good and they never looked back. The tax base was gone, the neighborhoods were gone, the sense of community was gone and there was nothing that could have been done to change that. If Detroit would have avoided the 67 riots there is a good chance it would have been ok because the city had a strong mayor who had great ideas for integration, and it had enough people still living in the city that wanted to stay. Although the 80s was probably Detroit’s darkest time the 60s really made that possible.

My parents and my grandparents stayed but all of my relatives (uncles, great uncles, my Dad’s cousins) left between 1965 and 1970 before I was even born. I have a great uncle that still lives on the East side in a group home and I have a cousin that still lives by Detroit Mercy near where my Grandparents lived but that is it. We left in 1986, my grandparents left in 1988. I live overseas now and I’ll likely move to the D.C. or Dallas area when I come back. I lived in Detroit from 2003 to 2005 after being gone for ten years but I’ll likely never return now. As much as I love the city and the area there just isn’t anything there for me and a lot of other people like me. I just don’t see that changing anytime soon and that’s too bad because for the right opportunity I’d move back in a second.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The DC area (like Virginia or Maryland) is nice, but very expensive. Dallas is nice also, cheaper to live in for sure. But if you move to Dallas, you need to have a working knowledge of Spanish.

I really think Detroit can and will come back. Like they say in East Texas, you just need to "take the bull by the horns." Easier said than done, but it can happen!
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Softailrider
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Username: Softailrider

Post Number: 141
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I grew up in the city in the 50's and 60's . I really don't remember the racial tension Lombowski is referring to , maybe I was too young to realize it . My neighborhood ( Littlefield between Vassar and St.Martins ) was totally white . Some blacks moved into the area , I remember everybody being friendly towards each other and getting along fine . The schools were somewhat intergrated and very good . There was very little , if any crime that I can recall .That all changed at the end of 1967 , almost the entire block including my parents moved north . Funny thing is the housing in that area always looked great , really well built homes . To this day they look as good as they did 40 years ago .
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Crumbled_pavement
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Username: Crumbled_pavement

Post Number: 327
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz, I'm thankful for people like you that have a positive attitude. You don't say that Detroit is free of problems, yet you don't say Detroit only has problems either.

It is people like you who inspire me to hope.

Hope is an essential ingredient that is missing in Metro Detroit. Hope alone can not fix Detroit, yet Detroit can not be fixed without hope.

If I'm convinced that keeping my house tidy and working hard everyday and being a role model to younger Detroiters is fruitless and can not change anything then what is the point in me doing those things? It is the hope that these things will have an impact. If teachers are convinced that it is useless to teach their students and police believe it useless to fight crime and firemen feel it is useless to try to put out a blaze then why would any of them do those things?

It is all about hope.

There is far too little hope in the Metro Detroit area. It is easy to see that many young Detroiters feel hopeless. Instead of the older generations coming together to inspire, motivate, and push the younger generation, they simply seek to confirm the hopelessness many young Detroiters already feel.

Gaz, I'm glad you decided to be on the side of hope. It doesn't mean Detroit will turn around, but Detroit has no chance of turning around if we refused to believe it ever can.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crumbled Pavement - I like that name!

Detroit WILL come back, it's just a matter of when. It's just too great of a city of die. Just look at the people on this forum! They may argue sometimes, which is good, but they all have ideas about what to do for/about Detroit. It'll come together, no doubt. If you don't have hope, what's the point of living?

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