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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 643
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mass Transit will be a priority when there is more money generated from passenger fares or local taxes. It's money that talks. Ideas such as mine when I filled up the buses walk unless Livonia residents vote to come back into the W.C.T.A. with money or we walk or drive and that’s a fact. If any of your DY'ers think mass transit is cheap then check the property taxes in AA to pay for the AATA for example. If you DY'ers can convince the voters to pay an extra couple of hundred per year in taxes and can fix up SMART and DDOT with good management and get federal money for rail then we would have a decent mass transit system.

It's up to all of us by voting in mass transit leaders and going to MDOT, SEMCOG, SMART, DDOT, TRU and MOSES and city council meetings. It will take a lot of work but it seems that many of you DY'ers really want mass transit which if good because this can improve our region allot but I think we need to compete with the rest of the World thus should work to lower costs and improve quality. Seriously, why would people and employers want to come to southeast Michigan so they can pay high taxes and wait two hours for a bus, if they are lucky? I'm sure we can do better if we use or brains and work together as a region to make the best use of our limited transportation tax dollars.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 251
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While it is true that our population was already slipping by the time streetcars were removed from our streets, the removal of the streetcars and the '67 riots definitely quickened the momentum.

I believe that Detroit's population will level out and begin to go up within 10 years from the opening of the first light rail project.

I am hopeful in that I believe that the burbs will want to connect to the Detroit lines upon their completion so as not to be left out. Yea, even LBP will find oodles of $ to fund it if he sees a payoff for Oakland County.
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Mwilbert
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Username: Mwilbert

Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will repeat myself. If you want a minimum-wage job, you don't have to go to Novi to get it.
Transit just isn't very relevant to that problem. The employers in Novi would have to pay a LOT more than employers closer to Detroit to compensate people for the time and money costs of the commute. They would be better off running shuttles if they are hurting that badly for workers, which I doubt.

Here is why I believe the area doesn't have enough jobs for its population.

1) The metro area is losing population--the whole state is losing population. Why? I claim it is because people either leave or don't come because they can't find appropriate jobs, because they don't exist.

2) Unemployment is high and rising, even among people with cars, who don't need the theoretical transit system to get to work. I claim this is because these people can't find appropriate jobs, because they don't exist.

3) People don't migrate as a first resort--more like a last resort. Michigan has been losing jobs for a while. It is very unlikely that all the people who need to move have done so yet.

And the streetcars were nearly all gone by the time the city started losing population, so I doubt their relevance, although I think everyone believes the riot accelerated the population decline in the city proper.

None of this means there shouldn't be better transit. I just wish people would be realistic about the benefits, or the first line built will probably be the last. Underpromise and overdeliver is better than the other way around.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5405
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People working probably don't take the time or effort to realize how bad Detroit's unemployment pickle is until they get fired or laid off and discover that the reason why classified ads virtually disappeared from the newspapers during the late 1990s. And the Internet had little to do with it, at least in SE MI.

Back during 1999, I decided that I would count the general labor (unskilled) help-wanted ads for a few days. Some days during the week had only a very few ads, such as seven. A more normal community, such as Milwaukee or Chicago would have several dozens or over a hundred. Except for the combined Saturday/Sunday editions there might have been as many as twenty unique general labor ads for the five-day period for Detroit--pitiful.

The BLS usually lists about 175,000 being unemployed for metro Detroit. That essentially covers those who are laid off and collecting benefits. After those benefits dry up, the BLS figure often doesn't account for those unemployed for longer periods of times--several months to years, for Detroit in particular. Detroit's daily newspapers estimate that the figure for discouraged workers (no longer looking) has been a minimum of 90,000 for the past several years.

Some of the discouraged workers eventually leave. Others stay with friends or parents. It's not uncommon to hear about the relatively recent subculture of males who have never been in the job market, and probably never will.

The guest on the Saturday night version of the former Art Bell show stated that about 20% of young males fit this category. Many of them are school dropouts. That figure seems to climb each year. Some of them are in their middle to upper thirties and actually DO live in their parents' basements.

This subculture also exists in Metro Detroit, as elsewhere.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on February 26, 2008)
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Funaho
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Username: Funaho

Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple hundred a year is all it'll cost me? Sign me up. I spend that much every MONTH on gas driving to work and back (Novi and Ypsi.)

I think one reason ridership is so low is, as Trainman noted, our people and our jobs are relatively far apart here and buses just aren't practical when your job is 30 miles away (this is about average among me and my friends, in the IT/telcomm fields.)

Rail service roughly paralleling the major freeways would be ideal. Start with I-75 going north and I-94 going west and expand as needed. I bet the bill for the planned I-75 expansion in OC would pay for it. :-)
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 644
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funaho, A couple hundred a year tax is like a lottery system. This will not pay for everyone.

For example, When SMART came to Livonia, they got many workers to use the bus to go to Dearborn which was great for me but for those who worked in Canton, they got no bus service.

So, if you can get mass transit, it is a good because you can save lots of money but not everyone can do this.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 454
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I will repeat myself. If you want a minimum-wage job, you don't have to go to Novi to get it."

I'm not disputing that but there's a lot of jobs in Novi that would be open to people if they could get here.


"The employers in Novi would have to pay a LOT more than employers closer to Detroit to compensate people for the time and money costs of the commute."

Not if there was a good transit option. Do the math. Riding a bus to Novi 5 days a week is a heck of a lot cheaper than owning a car and making that commute from Detroit, if there was a bus one could ride.

"They would be better off running shuttles if they are hurting that badly for workers, which I doubt."

Then I guess you're working from an uninformed opinion. A number of businesses rely on shuttles or van or carpooling to get workers to Novi. As I said before, there's simply not the employee base in the city to fill those positions. Some workers ride SMART to Livonia or Farmington Hills and then walk into Novi to their job. Novi businesses do have to pay workers more because they have to pay people enough to cover their costs to get them out to Novi or to compete for workers that are able to get higher pay from other businesses. Again, how many business opportunities are being lost all over SE Michigan because we can't match the workforce to the locations that need them because our crappy transit system?
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 455
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From 1998 but still relevant today.

GETTING WORKERS TO NOVI JOBS 2 DETROITERS START SHUTTLE SERVICE TO MAKE UP FOR CUTS IN PUBLIC TRANSIT
Detroit Free Press March 10, 1998
JEFF GERRITT Free Press Staff Writer

Frustrated by patchwork regional public transportation, two Detroiters have started a nonprofit foundation to take city workers to suburban jobs.

Attorney Tony Jenkins and job counselor Gary Shelton hope to have at least one leased van running from downtown Detroit to Novi this week to replace an express bus to Twelve Oaks mall that was cut in January.


The Detroit Department of Transportation express shuttle served about 15 workers. The department's decision to end roughly 20 suburban routes affected about 1,500 Detroiters who traveled to suburban jobs.

Sears at Twelve Oaks is holding open the jobs of the seven Detroit employees left without a ride.

"We want to get these people back to work as soon as possible," Shelton said. He and Jenkins started looking at Detroiters' transportation needs after the DDOT cutback.

Meanwhile, some people are questioning the City of Novi 's decision to snub the suburban bus system by refusing to participate in the transportation millage. SMART won't run buses into Novi without the money.

"They're a major employment center and, from an economic development perspective, it absolutely makes sense," said Jeff Kaczmarek, Oakland County's director of community and economic development.

Sears District Manager Allen Greenfield called Novi 's decision shortsighted. Without public transit, he said, stores will feel the pinch.

"We're continually understaffed and so is the mall," Greenfield said.

Novi is one of 37 Oakland County communities not served by SMART. The next millage election will take place Aug. 4. To get SMART service, a city council or township board would have to request it by June.

That's unlikely in Novi , where City Manager Ed Kriewall, Mayor Kathleen McLallen and Councilman Hugh Crawford say they've heard little from citizens about bus service. The millage would cost Novi about $700,000 a year.

McLallen said some Novi manufacturers have set up transportation for employees.

Shelton and Jenkins started the People Who Care Foundation to raise money for transportation for Detroiters who need rides to jobs.

Jenkins, a Detroit Urban League board member, said he donated $1,000 to get the foundation started. He and Shelton plan to have one van running from downtown Detroit to Twelve Oaks by Friday. The van would leave Detroit about 8 a.m. and return about 3 p.m.

One 15-passenger van will cost the foundation about $850 a month to lease. Riders will be charged $25 a month. The foundation would pick up the remaining costs.

Janet Jackson, who lost the Sears job she held for 14 months, said she's ready to go back to work. The east side Detroiter said not having a car has hurt her efforts to find work.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3929
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One item I thought about last night that fits more with the title of this thread:

Wouldn't it make sense to have a viable transit alternative when MDOT does decide to fix a major roadway? How many of you found yourselves stuck on the Lodge everyday while it was being reconstructed? Wouldn't it have been easier, more predictable, and a lot less stressful, if there were a train you could have ridden?
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2728
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

None of this means there shouldn't be better transit. I just wish people would be realistic about the benefits, or the first line built will probably be the last. Underpromise and overdeliver is better than the other way around.


On this, we agree. The worst thing that could possibly happen by moving our priorities from never-ending freeway expansions to improving mass transit is that we only save a couple hundred million dollars.

Maybe it will lead to the kind of job growth and economic prosperity that some in this forum have talked about. Maybe it won't.

But at least the taxpayers of this state will save some cash.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 349
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Wouldn't it have been easier, more predictable, and a lot less stressful, if there were a train you could have ridden?



Of course. But what does one do once dumped at New Center to actually get to work.

quote:

Underpromise and overdeliver is better than the other way around.



Absolutely true. Problem being, when has anything around here ever been underpromised and overdelivered?

The only proposals on the table right now are half-measures at best. Any train proposal currently out there has a terminus at New Center, maybe another couple up B'ham/RO way, and maybe a stop kinda close the airport (just a bus transfer away!).

Ok. Great. I'm with you on how nice it would be, but once one gets into town...now what? Say I'm training it in from BFE outer ring west side... or whatever...I train into Detroit and stand around for 40 minutes waiting for a bus that maybe will come and maybe get me the 3 miles downtown in 40 minutes? What if I don't work Downtown or along the line anywhere?

Ok, now that I'm two hours into a commute that used to take me 35-45 minutes, what happens when I need to go out to oakland county or anywhere to see a client? Bus it up Telegraph or Woodward? Taxi?

What incentive does anything currently on the drawing board have for anyone to abandon their car on a regular basis? They are all glorified parking lot shuttles that can only be used if one has no real time constraints or secondary travel needs.We don't have the money to waste on people mover II.

Detroit and SE michigan will never have viable "real city" mass transit in our lifetimes. It's just not going to ever happen without a massive shift in economic priorities, a massive influx of regional tax dollars through wealth creation and job growth (yeah right.), unprecedented local cooperation (yeah right.), or a total divestment in the outer suburbs that results in a contraction of the region to a point where mass transit is a workable option for those other than those that have no other choice.

Personally I think it will take shock to our systems along the lines of a Katrina level disaster, gas at 10.00 a gallon, or a depression of heretofore unheard of proportion to make mass transit on a large scale work here. It would take a massive government works program, a lot of eminent domain takings, and a lot of people radically changing the way they live.

50 year of unmitigated sprawl, spineless politicians, and an apathetic public have guaranteed real transit is not a real possibility or a marginal priority.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1709
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People in transit-rich cities who have jobs that require frequent travel outside the city will still drive. This should not be disincentive to build. Not EVERYONE is going to ride the train, even in transit-rich cities.

Even in New York City, around 25-30% of commuters drive to work. Probably a good portion of these people are folks who must drive to visit clients, etc.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 350
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Even in New York City, around 25-30% of commuters drive to work. Probably a good portion of these people are folks who must drive to visit clients, etc.



I agree. I'm not under any impression that there needs to be 'door to door' service for a transit system to work. I also have no doubt there will be a certain percentage that will need to drive not matter how good the system, but from what I understand from the proposals out there now, they offer no incentive to get 70-75% (NYC)..or even any significant number of commuters out of their cars. It looks like only a relatively tiny niche of the commuting public would have any reason to ride the rails.

I am a huge mass transit proponent. Whenever I am in a city that has it, I use it. When I lived in cities that had it I used it. I would love to have it here, however, I believe ridership numbers needed to make a system remotely sustainable are not there, and will never be there short of a massive demo and overhaul of the entire area. This area was built upon reliance on cars and mass transit is barely an afterthought. Until getting around by car is an actual impossibility for a majority of people here, nothing will change.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 456
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"This area was built upon reliance on cars and mass transit is barely an afterthought. Until getting around by car is an actual impossibility for a majority of people here, nothing will change."

How many modern American cities weren't build upon a reliance on cars? Those that aren't are the exceptions. But as is noted over and over again, most of them have managed to build and operate transit systems better than what we have here.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 351
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

How many modern American cities weren't build upon a reliance on cars? Those that aren't are the exceptions. But as is noted over and over again, most of them have managed to build and operate transit systems better than what we have here.



And how many have lost half their population and most of their tax base in that time? How many of them are located in States that depend one major industry that is in a perpetual state of decline? How many of those cites have the regional feudalism like that on display here?
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Living_in_the_d
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Username: Living_in_the_d

Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Let us hold out hope that Bus travel will catch on, It is a fairly new concept,(86 years old), compared to Rail,(143 years old). Long Live D.D.O.T.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 647
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bus travel caught on in Livonia prior to the opt. out. but choice of YES or NO was a mockery because of the illegal DARTA agreement.

So, we voted NO for Wal-Mart because our votes did not count anyway.

But, there is hope DY'ers. Someday Wal-Mart in Livonia will pay decent wages out the kindness of their big hearts and even pay for the return of SMART.

Then people in Livonia can take the bus to the SEMCOG fantasy for action plan for the Detroit to AA train that we are all sure will be coming soon, if only we can all dig just a little deeper into our pockets and pay just the price of a cup of coffee per day more in taxes.
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W_chicago
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Username: W_chicago

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are SOOO many reasons to have transit. The benefits far outweigh the costs. Unfortunately there are SOO many reasons we don't have transit: 50 years of horrible urban policy, a sour (and at times racist) suburban-city relationship, screwed up federal and state funding systems, etc.

With that said, there is still no excuses for why we don't. I see getting fast, reliable, safe mass transit as a win-win for everyone: expanded transportation freedom (no longer limited to cars or shoddy bus service), increased economic development (many, many examples of this), better quality of life for the city, better image, not to mention the mother of all reasons: helping get away from our dependence on fossil fuels (climate change, pollution, smog, etc).

Fortunately, a great deal of momentum has already started. There is increased cooperation between business, government and community in relationship to this common goal: mass transit in Detroit. There is still a long way to go, but with initiatives such as the AA-Detroit plan, the DDOT options for growth study, and more, I see us getting transit within the near future.

Also, we should think about what we, as citizens, can do to push this process along. Talk to our elected officials? Talk to business leaders? Have town hall meetings? Start an organization? Start a petition? Many of these things already happening right now. Who knows, but we are the ones we've been waiting for.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 255
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you remember the argument about how we needed more conventions booked but didn't have enough hotel rooms in Detroit to accomodate them? That catch-22 was corrected when hotels in excess of Detroit's ability to absorb them then ended up increasing our convention business.

It's no different here. Some want instant ridership numbers before we build, and some say," build it and they will come". The second group is right because SOMEONE has to move us out of this catch-22 so we can move onward and upward.

If this first leg of light rail gets funded and built by the business community, in conjunction with the DTOGS Plan, we will be on our way.

As far as roads go, blacktop all the worst roads and build HIGH quality concrete ones. No crap concrete please. Mound and VanDyke 15-18 mile are so bad that cars disappear before driving up the other side of the pothole. ;) They were built within 15 years or so.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 459
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Also, we should think about what we, as citizens, can do to push this process along. Talk to our elected officials? Talk to business leaders? Have town hall meetings? Start an organization? Start a petition?"

Yes. Until those people hear that people want mass transit, they'll be listening to the LY's of the world with their transit nay-saying.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5447
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I suggest bake sales. That'll do the trick.
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Jeduncan
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Username: Jeduncan

Post Number: 190
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bake sales won't do it. Sell girl scout cookies :-P
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Gene
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Username: Gene

Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Novine, Monday Wayne State Mass Transit summit.
Heres the opportunity for all you Kool-aid drinkers sitting behind your keyboards to put up or shut-up.
How many of you will be there??

As stated earlier I for one will be in attendance.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2729
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It's no different here. Some want instant ridership numbers before we build, and some say," build it and they will come". The second group is right because SOMEONE has to move us out of this catch-22 so we can move onward and upward.


To add to this, there is also the fact that the average bus line is currently operating at much closer to full capacity than most freeways. In spite of that, we as a community spend millions and millions of dollars to keep expanding the freeways. Meanwhile, spending more to upgrade our mass transit system is view as wasteful by some on this forum.
quote:

I suggest bake sales. That'll do the trick.


Beautiful. Call MDOT and tell them to run a bake sale the next time they want a few hundred million to expand some freeway.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2730
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's ironic, to say the least, that if you build an argument based on logic, evidence and a desire to use taxpayers' money wisely then you are called a "Kool-Aid drinker" by people who dodge questions and openly ridicule common sense itself.

As for the Mass Transit Summit at WSU, some of us have these things called "jobs" that will prevent us from being at a meeting during normal business hours on a Monday. I really wouldn't read anything into how many people are or aren't at it.

For those who are going, I recommend going to the summit by bus. If nothing else, it will give you a chance to look for those syringes that some on this forum have said liter buses these days.
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Gene
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Username: Gene

Post Number: 73
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek, What is anyone who posts on this forum, including you, doing, other than bitching on this forum to promote and further your case for Mass Transit.

Again put up or shut up.

If I come across a few syringes in the parking garage I will let you know as I will not be riding the bus. Wayne State is so easy to access from our freeways and Woodward.
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Hooha
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Username: Hooha

Post Number: 166
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All of this Detroit to Novi talk is cracking me up. Some anecdotal evidence:

I used to work in a chain restaurant in Novi by the Farmington Hills border. One of the waiters there was from Detroit, and he told me one day that it was a 2 1/2 hour bus ride to get from the D to Novi (He'd take SMART to Farmington Hills and walk the last 5 minutes). I asked him why in God's name does he come out this far for a job, and he said that you have to come out this far for the best combination of consistent hours and good wages (tips).

This restaurant functioned fine, but we were ALWAYS hiring. You couldn't get anybody to apply but high schoolers and college-age kids who'd show up hungover to every lunch shift. Where were all the unemployed folk?

Maybe you can get a minimum wage job closer to the D, but these are better jobs. I'd average 13-14 dollars an hour as a waiter. 12 Oaks Mall pays well above minimum wage. Heck, even the burger king by my house was hiring people in at 10/hour with a friggin' signing bonus. This is just Novi, too.

Say what you want about whether mass transit is feasible or beneficial to the region OVERALL, but I have no doubt it would help out unskilled labor in Detroit get to these unfilled jobs in the outer burbs.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5454
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some on DY have posted before that, maybe, 4 to 6 dozen were in attendance at those public meetings in the past--probably all transit zealots. Yet, they call those meetings a great success because so many people showed up. It's also likely that the press, lobbyists, and other special-interest groups were also covering those meetings as a part of their work or livelihood.

And really Frank, comparing freeway capacity with capacities of the buses at rush hour (or any other times)--as if that means anything... Workers who drive to/from work still have the options to utilize the various park & rides, yet not many do. Otherwise, there would be serious clamoring by the commuting public for expanded routes and service, instead of the continual noise from the left for more services, even if there's little proven need. As if more buses would create new jobs and thus added ridership.

Jobs will leave SE MI, with or without any help or hindrance from the transit systems, and the remaining businesses are not suffering in the least from any lack of workers getting to those dwindling amount of jobs that transit won't help...
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2361
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Jobs will leave SE MI, with or without any help or hindrance from the transit systems..."

Or, some of Detroit's biggest (former) proponents will leave for the lack of amicable discussion on transit , and move to a job in another city where a majority of the population is supporting transit:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080225/O PINION03/802250317
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5455
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Or, some of Detroit's biggest (former) proponents will leave for the lack of amicable discussion on transit , and move to a job in another city where a majority of the population is supporting transit:

And? There's already a huge disparity in the population compared to the total jobs. So, people will have to leave regardless. Therefore, if the rail proponents feel that they are compelled to leave, the overall unemployment situation is improved as a result.

Leaving for a venue with rail already installed makes far more sense to one who wants it that badly than waiting forever and all he might get is a streetcar system for four miles...
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 648
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They have rail and we have water.

Michigan needs better paying jobs and not more transit tax increases and bus service reductions

There are many Detroit residents struggling to raise families by working at the Livonia Wal-Mart that deserve good leadership in Lansing to stop the state transit cuts from the Michigan Department of Transportation MDOT.

Prov 26:12
Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

So, DY’ers, I support mass transit taxes but the workers deserve good bus service in return. So, please support Bring Back SMART to Livonia and southeast Michigan and get the new SMART manager to come to Livonia city hall and sign my package deal to remove thousands of cars from the freeways using SMART and DDOT with MDOT funds and federal transit grants and property taxes all combined to best serve everyone. Or, come up with a better plan and be a mass transit leader then I will support you with my tax dollars and possibly at the fare box.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2367
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Or, come up with a better plan and be a mass transit leader then I will support you with my tax dollars and possibly at the fare box."

Or you can take Livernoisyard's advice and just move to a city that already has a better transit system--that might be easier than getting one for Detroit!
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Living_in_the_d
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Username: Living_in_the_d

Post Number: 113
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I think I'll just use the one in Detroit,(D.D.O.T.)
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Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall

Post Number: 663
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When the cow jumps over the moon.
Remember the last time you waited in the snow for a bus that never seemed to come?
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Living_in_the_d
Member
Username: Living_in_the_d

Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I'm sure I'll Still use D.D.O.T..
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2732
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Fnemecek, What is anyone who posts on this forum, including you, doing, other than bitching on this forum to promote and further your case for Mass Transit.


I ride the bus on a regular basis and make sure to let my elected representatives know that I'm tired of them wasting my tax dollars on one freeway expansion after another.

Now my turn: besides bitching on this forum, what have you done to solve any of the problems that this community faces?
quote:

If I come across a few syringes in the parking garage I will let you know as I will not be riding the bus.


You'll probably find about as many as there on the bus.
quote:

There's already a huge disparity in the population compared to the total jobs. So, people will have to leave regardless.


Perfect solution. Don't bother to fix any problems. Everyone just leave Michigan.

You certainly prove Mark Twain right.
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Living_in_the_d
Member
Username: Living_in_the_d

Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Still gonna use D.D.O.T.
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Gene
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Username: Gene

Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek, In case you haven't noticed I am not a proponent of Mass Transit and I do not intend to do anything in any shape, form or fashion for its promotion; other than to present a different point of view.
I will attend a meeting from time to time on the subject via my education or job requirements.

quote:
"I ride the bus on a regular basis and make sure to let my elected representatives know that I'm tired of them wasting my tax dollars on one freeway expansion after another."

What freeway expansions are you referring to? Have I missed something?
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Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2376
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"What freeway expansions are you referring to? Have I missed something?"

How about M-5 or M-53?
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2733
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Fnemecek, In case you haven't noticed I am not a proponent of Mass Transit and I do not intend to do anything in any shape, form or fashion for its promotion; other than to present a different point of view.


I didn't ask, "What have you done to promote mass transit?" My question was, "Besides bitching on this forum, what have you done to solve any of the problems that this community faces?"

Really. How lazy can one human be?
quote:

What freeway expansions are you referring to? Have I missed something?


Yes. A lot. Are you sure you live in Michigan?
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Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 469
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did anyone attend the transit meeting today put on by Congresswoman Kilpatrick.
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Gene
Member
Username: Gene

Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rbdetsport, I did attend the event, but right now I am too lazy to post.
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D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 310
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Found this article VERY interesting:

http://blogs.wsj.com/environme ntalcapital/2008/03/04/calling -ralph-kramden-is-mass-transit -the-answer/

Along with this editorial commentary:

http://www.treehugger.com/file s/2008/03/transit-not-cars.php
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Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2380
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Increasingly, people are voting with their feet. Gasoline demand is falling like it hasn’t for 16 years. Ridership of public busses, subways, and commuter trains rose 30% between 1995 and 2006, PIRG says. That’s almost twice as fast as the overall rate of population growth, according to U.S. Census data."

"But instead of boosting spending on public transit, the last Bush budget proposes channeling $3.2 billion in transit money to fund highways, PIRG complains in a press release."

Doesn't sound like Bush is in touch with supply and demand.
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D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 316
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And yet another article touting the economic feasibility for RIDERS of trains and mass transit:

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/ 03/04/transportation-tuesday-c an-spains-ave-train-kill-the-a irplane/
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 712
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From TRU:
*********

Highlights of Monday's Mass Transit Summit

Congresswoman Carolyn C. Kilpatrick hosted a transit summit on Monday, bringing together experts who developed rapid transit in other cities, local transit leaders and 150 transit supporters. The Congresswoman pointed out that Congress allocates $60 billion in transportation funds, under the five-year federal transportation bill. She’s brought a little of that to Detroit and is trying to bring in more, but needs local transit projects to advance.

Speakers from Charlotte, Houston and Denver explained their transit systems and the keys to their success:

* Charlotte, NC, started their regional transit investment by making major investments and improvements in their bus system, developing express buses with lots of amenities attractive to business commuters. Choice ridership leapt up 600% for their suburban park-and-ride service and significantly changed public perception of who uses transit.

* All three speakers represented cities relatively new to rapid transit – Charlotte started a trolley line in 2004 and a 9.6 mile light rail line in 2007, Houston started their first 7.5 miles of light rail in 2004, and Denver’s light rail started line opened in 1994. They managed to work through many of the challenges we're dealing with today. It can happen!

* All three systems have been very successful and are planning major expansions. Houston already has 45,000 riders each day, ridership that wasn’t expected until 2020. Charlotte is planning a $9 billion transit investment over the next 20 years. Denver has already added two additional lines and voters recently approved a massive $1.7 billion transit/highway expansion project.

* In Denver, once the first light rail line went in, the debate switched from “will it work?” to “when do I get mine?”

After that, local transit leaders from MDOT, RTCC, SMART, DDOT, SEMCOG, Ann Arbor and TRU spoke. A few highlights:

* John Hertel pointed out that this region has failed for many years to achieve rapid transit and that no one is going to ride to our rescue – we need the political will to make the major investment needed. It will be costly, but the cost is massively outweighed by the benefits.

* Disappointingly, Paul Tait from SEMCOG said that the Detroit-Airport-Ann Arbor train probably won’t be running until 2010. They are still developing cost estimates for rail improvements that are needed to ensure quality service. Congresswoman Kilpatrick is pushing them to advance more quickly (just as TRU has been).

* The Director of MDOT talked about their recent long range planning process and just how surprised they were by the overwhelming public desire for transportation choices.

The Directors of SEMCOG and MDOT both acknowledged the major public support that exists for transit, but listed lots of complaints and excuses of why they’re not investing more. I pointed out that the other cities we heard from made it clear that to achieve the transit that so many people want, our leaders must make it a top priority and must make major investments in transit. Yes, there are lots of transportation funding needs, but leadership is about making the tough choices to do the right thing. Hopefully our leaders are ready to do so.
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Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3955
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

* The Director of MDOT talked about their recent long range planning process and just how surprised they were by the overwhelming public desire for transportation choices.



Really? You mean MDOT has been out of the loop on transit??? Say it isn't so!
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Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 471
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am really disappointed about the Commuter Rail Line. Maybe they are now working in conjunction with DDOT to get the light rail line and commuter rail line running at the same time. I hope that is the case.
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Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 472
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Congresswoman pointed out that Congress allocates $60 billion in transportation funds, under the five-year federal transportation bill. She’s brought a little of that to Detroit and is trying to bring in more, but needs local transit projects to advance."

A dollar amount would have been nice to know. Really, this money would be awesome to be put toward the DTOGS line. It would advance DTOGS toward construction much easier.
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Steve_bourne
Member
Username: Steve_bourne

Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You think this is about bus riders getting a shiny new train to ride? Maybe the impoverished searching for jobs in another city? Is this about the cost of driving a car vs the cost of a person riding a train partially supported by tax dollars? Diverting freeway traffic to rails? Of course the answer to all these is NO. I attended the Summit on Monday. I am glad the Congresswoman has taken on this cause - she is very much needed. It was also a demonstration of the vast difference between speakers who have made things happen in their cities and Michigan bureaucrats who have failed us many times before. Between now and the day a viable transit system serves Michigan, an unprecedented transformation must occur in this state. Legislative bodies unable to create a working budget in our shrinking economy must debate and pass an amendment to the state constitution that the voters must be convinced to ratify after a complex and expensive ad campaign. Then a charismatic leader capable of galvanizing the business community must appear before us - someone like Roger Penske - and help the public understand that it's okay to invest BILLIONS of dollars in Michigan's future as other states have in theirs. Boston spent 15 BILLION to bury 3.5 miles of freeway!! As demonstrated by the chaotic entries on this board, mass transit is a vast and complex issue who's benefits must be must be made clear to the average voter while defending itself from lazy, stupid but plentiful critics. In return for all that trouble, Michigan may take it's first meaningful steps towards a real transit system such as an RRT (rapid rail train). There are several good routs proposed but one of the most beneficial would be between Detroit, Metro Airport and Ann Arbor, on dedicated tracks centered on I-94 or Michigan Avenue. It would not only link communities, but run past vast tracts of undeveloped and under utilized land that could one day become billions of dollars of high density, sustainable development that is missing from this state. For different reasons, great benefits could come from a rout extending up Woodward to Square Lake. But as it stands, no developer will risk his future developing around train stations or bus stops that disappear with the stroke of a bureaucrats pen. ...but a 3 billion dollar LR or RRT is here to stay.
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Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2385
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism, you be chance know who the speaker was from Charlotte?

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