  Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6260 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well it's time for another movie palace thread... so many other threads around here are so intense and divisive. Here's a list of the 25 largest "old time" theatres that existed in the United States, and sadly about half are gone (or in the case of the Michigan, it's half gone). I realize that these type of threads don't evoke a lot of responses, but this is for those of you who like statistics, like myself. Among cities with huge theatres, New York, Chicago and Detroit made up 1/2 of the list. Enjoy! Gistok ______________________________ ______________________________ The list of the largest USA movie/vaudeville/legitimate theatres: 1-Shrine Auditorium, Los Angeles, 6,717 seats (restored to 6,300 seats). 2-Radio City Music Hall, NYC, 5,940 seats. 3-Roxy, NYC, 5,886 seats (Razed). 4-Capitol, NYC, 5,230 seats (Razed) 5-Hippodrome, NYC, 5,105 seats (Razed) 6-Fox, Detroit, 5,048 seats (restored to 5,174 seats). 7-Fox, St. Louis, 5,041 seats (restored to 4,500 seats). 8-Fox, Atlanta, 4,970 seats (restored to 4,674 seats). 9-Mastbaum, Philadelphia, 4,717 seats (razed) 10-Fox, San Francisco, 4,651 seats (razed) 11-Masonic Temple, Detroit, 4,600 seats (only 4,404 seats used due to remainder with poor sight lines) 12-Metropolitan, Boston, 4,407 seats (restored as Wang Center to 3,600 seats) 13-Stanley, Jersey City, 4,332 seats (restored to a 4,100 seat church) 14-Uptown, Chicago, 4,381 seats (closed). 15-Auditorium Theatre, Chicago, 4,237 seats. 16-Warner, Atlantic City, 4,189 seats (razed) 17-Fox, Brooklyn, 4,088 (razed) 18-Paramount, Brooklyn, 4,084 (many seats removed, used as a basketball court). 19-Michigan, Detroit, 4,050 seats (partly gutted for parking structure). 20-Minnesota, Minneapolis, 4,028 seats (razed) 21-Hippodrome, Cleveland, 4,000 seats (razed) 22-Marbro, Chicago, 3,931 seats (razed) 23-Stanley, Pittsburgh, 3,886 (restored as Benedum Center for the Arts, 2,800 seats) 24-Chicago Theatre, 3880 (restored to 3,600 seats) 25-St. Louis Theatre, 3860 (restored as Powell Hall to 2,800 seats) ______________________________ ________________ Interestingly enough Theatre Historical Society considers a "very large" theatre as one with more than 2,800 seats... so these theatres are considered the giants, even though some have had reduced seating due to greater elbow room and larger orchestra pits. (Message edited by Gistok on February 06, 2008) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1523 Registered: 09-2007 |
That's why Detroit has the 2nd largest theatre district in the country  | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2032 Registered: 12-2005 |
Gistok--My wife and I just spent the weekend in Chicago, went to two Rapp & Rapp houses, the Oriental (I played there in '82) and the Palace. Nice | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6111 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thaks Gistok. nobody tops your extensive theater knowledge. Bring it all. We love it. jjaba, THS member, ATOS member. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 1030 Registered: 03-2006 |
http://www.shrineauditorium.co m/facts.html | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1114 Registered: 11-2005 |
For as big as the Shrine is, it doesn't hold a candle to the Fox or the Michigan pre-garage-inization. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6266 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for the link Kenp! For many years the Oscar Awards were held at the Shrine Auditorium, which today is in a rough area of Los Angeles. Bet a lot of "B List" actors were bummed when they switched locations from the 6,300 seat Shrine Auditorium to the new 3,300 seat Kodak Theatre in Hollywood, and lost out on attending. Even though the Shrine Auditorium is larger than Detroit's Masonic Temple Theatre, the Masonic Temple is a much larger (much more vertical) Masonic complex. Rhymeswithrawk, you are correct. I believe that the "tent" ceiling to the Shrine Auditorium is actually made of fabric with real tassles. And the detailing was nowhere near as opulent. The lobby walls and ceiling were just plain unadorned plaster. It just doesn't compare with the awesome splendors of the Fox and former Michigan. Except for sheer size, there's little WOW factor. (Message edited by Gistok on February 07, 2008) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3852 Registered: 10-2003 |
How many seats does Chicago's Oriental Theatre have? It seems fairly large. That one interests me because it's on the site of the old Iroquois Theatre, which burned when new in 1903 (and was then rebuilt as the Colonial). It was a horrific disaster, but fire codes across the country were revised because of it. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3853 Registered: 10-2003 |
Also, the Medinah Temple in Chicago (1913, now a Bloomingdale's Home and Furniture Store) once had 4,200 seats, did it not? Fantastic architecture on that one; at least the facade was preserved. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6268 Registered: 08-2004 |
The Oriental Theatre originally seated 3,200 back when it was built in 1926, but today seats about 3,000. Ironically while very similar in its treatment of the ornamentation to the Detroit Fox (but at 3/5 scale), theatre critics consider some of the interior space (especially the lobby) "nightmarish". Today it is the FORD CENTER FOR THE PERFORMING ARTS... and at 3,000 seats, the "flagship" of the chain (which includes NYC, Toronto and Vancouver Ford Centers). That's why I always thought that with the eventual demise of the 2,800 seat Ford Auditorium, Detroit should have the Ford Center flagship, with a restored 4,050 seat Ford Center (formerly the Michigan). After all it sits on ground zero, where Henry Ford built his first automobile in the mid 1890's. When I mentioned this idea to Michigan owner Tony Pieroni, he told me I was nuts! | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3855 Registered: 10-2003 |
The interior of the Oriental looks fabulous... I would compare it to the Fox: http://www.conradschmitt.com/C aseStudies/oriental.aspx | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6270 Registered: 08-2004 |
Fury13, Rapp & Rapp (the architects that did the Michigan) designed the Oriental Theatre for Balaban & Katz (the Chicago theatre impressario's equivalent to Detroit's John Kunsky). They were ordered to design an Oriental style theatre, but hated doing so. Their favorite designs were French Royal theatres in a style known as "Rapp & Rapp Versailles". They were so displeased with their commission that they tore up their tickets for the opening night premier. The Oriental was Rapp & Rapp's only foray into the exotics. They also did 2 atmospheric theatres... the Toledo Paramount and the Chicago Southtown (both razed). They also did one Spanish Renaissance Theatre, the still existing (but closed) Chicago Uptown Theatre. Of the at least 50 theatres they designed in the Rapp & Rapp Versailles style, their largest commission was the Michigan. By the late 1920's they also did a few "Art Deco/French Renaissance" blended theatres such as the St. Louis Ambassador (razed) and the Aurora (IL) Paramount. And one of their most interesting theatres was known as a "reverse atmospheric" (sidewalls with a sky, canopy overhead)... the Brooklyn Paramount that probably has the most magnificent Procenium Arch of any theatre (today a basketball court with most of the plasterwork remaining). (Message edited by Gistok on February 07, 2008) | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1116 Registered: 11-2005 |
It's really hard to believe, but it's true: http://www.flickr.com/photos/m anzari/355814784/ | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1117 Registered: 11-2005 |
What am I thinking? We turned one of ours into a parking garage. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2035 Registered: 12-2005 |
If anyone really likes these old theaters and wants to learn more about them, and the period that gave birth to them, look up "the best remaining seats" by the late Ben Hall. Ben was a writer for Life magazine and a great fan of movie palaces. He was a very witty author and does a great job describing the type of entertainment that took place in the palaces, The mixture of vaudeville, music and movies. In reading the text you are almost there as the crazy 20s unfolded, the next palace more elaborate than the last. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1530 Registered: 09-2007 |
"What am I thinking? We turned one of ours into a parking garage." And another one is awaiting the same fate (Adams). | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6271 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yes, here's a different view of the Brooklyn Paramount basketball court...  | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1532 Registered: 09-2007 |
Well at least NYC did something with their old theatres besides demolish them or just let 'em rot. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3856 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think I prefer the Brooklyn Paramount (didn't Alan Freed have big rock 'n' roll shows there in the '50s?) basketball court conversion to the Michigan Theatre's parking garage. Gistok, I like the atmospheric design with the courtyard and faux overhead night sky/stars. Do we in Detroit have any of those left? Right now, in Chicago, they're trying to save one, but its future looks to be non-theatre (restaurant/bakery) use, even though its neighborhood is gentrifying: http://preservationchicago.org /risk/ramova.html There can't be too many of those atmospheric theatres left, can there? Weren't they usually smaller neighborhood movie houses, rather than downtown "palaces"? | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 527 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:The Redford Theatre comes to mind. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6272 Registered: 08-2004 |
Detroitrise... go back up to my list of 25 theatres... 6 are from NYC... and 4 of those are gone. No city in America has decimated so many beautiful old movie palaces as has New York (Chicago comes 2nd). Not only were the Roxy and Capitol (the 2 giants on Broadway) razed, but the NY Paramount on Times Square was removed from the building that still houses the corporate wizards at Paramount today. Loew's 72nd Theatre, a far eastern fantasy, lasted a mere 29 years before being pounded to rubble. The number of theatres in Manhattan alone numbers in the dozens. And why did NYC and Chicago lose so many downtown palaces.... land values and new construction... 2 things that kept developers at bay here in Detroit where there wasn't a great need to tear down the old palaces. That's why we have the 2nd greatest theatre district today. (Message edited by Gistok on February 07, 2008) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3857 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Redford Theatre comes to mind. Ahhh, yes... westside. I don't go over there. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6273 Registered: 08-2004 |
Here's 2 of my all time favorite extant movie palaces... Boston's 2,800 seat Keith's Memorial... a theater with "the ceiling of heaven":  And, that theatre with the basketball court today, (with formerly 4,084 seats) the Brooklyn Paramount... with the most beautiful "cove dawn" of any theatre:  | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2036 Registered: 12-2005 |
.....somebody mention the Redford?    Get out your east-west Detroit passport and come to the last remaining neighborhood movie house in Detroit. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1712 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: We still have one up here in Flint in John Eberson's Capitol Theatre. It is currently closed but there are plans for a restoration and opening, anyone got 15 mill to lend to the owners? It has been well maintained but at one point someone thought it would be a good idea to paint everything beige and remove some of the decoration. Recently has had the marquee restored and roof replaced as well as repairs in the brick on the exterior walls. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3864 Registered: 10-2003 |
Beautiful shots of the Redford, 56Packman! I may have to get over there, after all. Gumby, hopefully they'll figure out how to get the Capitol in Flint restored. It certainly would be a shame to lose that one. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 1033 Registered: 03-2006 |
The Capitol in Flint will be seen in the new movie coming out this week starring Will Ferrell called Semi-Pro which was shot in Flint. Thats why the Captiols Marquee was restored that Gumby was referring to. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1713 Registered: 11-2003 |
I hear you Fury. Although I do not see the Capitol going anywhere but up. The current owners (Farah family) are committed and have taking awesome care of the building. I have been in it a couple of times (legally) and you can see the grandeur the place once had. Currently a lot of the offices are occupied so the building has some revenue coming in, not just sitting there rotting. I just wish they would open it up even unrestored to raise revenue for the restoration. I would imagine you could get some local bands to donate time to put on a show as a benefit. Their myspace page with vido and pictures. http://profile.myspace.com/ind ex.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewpro file&friendid=121324144 | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 1127 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The State in Kalamazoo is an atmospheric. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 543 Registered: 10-2006 |
The Temple Theater in Saginaw was constructed by the same folks who made the Fox, only a year before the Fox. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3865 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Temple Theatre is awesome. I just wish they would open (the Capitol in Flint) up even unrestored to raise revenue for the restoration. That's what they've done with the Michigan Theatre in Jackson. I saw a live rockabilly show there about a year and a half ago. http://www.michigantheatre.org / | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6274 Registered: 08-2004 |
John Eberson is the most famous movie palace architect when it comes to atmospherics. His largest Michigan commission was the 2,786 seat Grand Riviera (razed 1990's) on Grand River in Detroit. As has been mentioned, the State in Kalamazoo and Capitol in Flint are smaller Eberson atmospheric theatres (under 2,000 seats). Eberson's largest atmospheric theatres are the San Antonio Majestic, the Bronx Paradise, the Queens (NYC) Valencia, and the Chicago Paradise (razed). These were all in the circa 3,500 seat range. Due to the nature of atmospheric theatres having a flat curved ceiling, they can sometimes have acoustic problems when the theatres get too large (of course even large theatres such as the Detroit Fox have less than great acoustics). The Chicago Paradise, one of John Eberson's most beautiful theatres, was razed in the 1950's. For all its' beauty, it was said to have had horrible acoustics. IIRC, the only downtown atmospheric theatre was the Oriental (later called the Downtown RKO) Theatre on W. Adams. It had 2,950 seats and was as the name described an oriental atmospheric designed by Peirea & Peirea (sp?). It was razed in the 1950's. I have yet to locate a good photograph of Detroit's Oriental auditorium. And as 56packman has mentioned in the past, its' lobby chandeliers today grace the lobby of the Redford Theatre. Although its' auditorium was razed, part of the lobby remains can still be seen (2nd building west of Park Ave. on W. Adams). Last year's Preservation Wayne Historic Theatre Tour in August showed off this space for the first time to the public. | ||
Steamaker Member Username: Steamaker Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2007 |
Gistok, Thanks for the post! This is the reason why I joined Detroit Yes | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2037 Registered: 12-2005 |
On this topic of the acoustics at the Fox, I think they are just fine. The DSO hates them, but then, it's a big place. The so-called "acoustically perfect" halls in the world are a lot smaller than a mega-theater like the Fox, and have a permanent "shell" enclosure on four sides of the orchestra to focus the sound out into the room. Orchestra hall is about 1900 seats. I have seen many (many) shows at the Fox and have rarely found any of them to suffer from poor sound. I recall a Tony Bennett concert where he had the PA system shut off, he put the mike down and just sang, in the much bigger style of singing that was common before amplified sound. The audience was dead quiet, and we could hear every word. The Fox has great sound, it's just never going to be that "acoustically perfect" sound of a hall half its size. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6276 Registered: 08-2004 |
56packman, it's interesting that some theatres (regardless of size) have much better acoustics than others. And the type of performance also comes into play as to particular acoustic needs. Some theatres require moveable "shells" around the stage, depending on whether that particular nights performance is opera or symphony in nature (Pittsburgh's Benedum Center comes to mind). And some former movie palaces require sound baffles in the side walls or ceilings (such as the former Youngstown Ohio Warner Theatre), even though that theatre is not particularly large. There are many factors that come into play for good acoustics. A good sounding board above the procenium is important as well. (My favorite is the Detroit Opera House's!) I recently read that even the 3,700 seat NYC Met Opera House is "certain death to small voices". One other factor is where you sit in a venue. I sat on the Detroit Fox's main floor under both the balcony and mezzanine overhangs for a Keith Richards concert, and the sound was awful. During intermission I went up and sat in the front part of the balcony, and the sound was great. (Message edited by Gistok on February 08, 2008) |
