  Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 88 Registered: 05-2007 |
The Boston Herald reported the following on 1.23.08: "Three Detroit casinos similar to those proposed by Gov. Deval Patrick have fallen about a half-billion dollars short of initial projections and created thousands fewer jobs than predicted in what could be a stark warning to Massachusetts. "In 1998, developers, politicians and casino proponents promised that three Detroit casinos would rake in up to $1.8 billion but in 2007 the gaming parlors took in $1.335 billion, according to the Michigan Gaming Control Board. "A Michigan state senate report in 2000, meanwhile, estimated the casinos would create 10,500 jobs but so far the gambling venues have just 7,000 permanent workers. The same report predicted the city’s annual gaming haul would reach $1.4 billion by 2004." http://www.bostonherald.com/ne ws/regional/general/view.bg?ar ticleid=1068406&format=text | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 540 Registered: 12-2006 |
what was the economy like in 1998 compared to now? That is a BIG factor. If all things had been equal, perhaps real numbers would have been closer to the projections. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4815 Registered: 10-2003 |
Downtown sure looks a lot better than it did in 1998. Vast transformations. Not sure the casinos deserve credit or not, but the change has been dramatic. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 692 Registered: 04-2006 |
correct el jimbo. i'm not 100% behind the casinos by a long shot, but the econemy plays a huge roll in how much money they bring in. open up the city budget... about 1/3 of detroit's general fund is provided for by the casinos... i repeat: 1/3 of DETROIT'S GENERAL FUND! | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2004 |
I know, who cares if it's 1.8 billion or 1.4 billion. The city is getting 10% of that! | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2018 Registered: 12-2005 |
OK-maybe I'm too simple (we know that!) to understand how things work in Massachusetts, but isn't $1.335 billion/7,000 permanent jobs better than $0/0 jobs without casinos? I believe these were initial projections--a projection is just that. A SWAG. Michigan/Detroit had to do something. our vehicles are really out of vogue at the moment, perhaps never to return. The Nation as a whole has thrown the towel in on manufacturing of any sort, except for laws and lawsuits. We went for Casinos, like it or not. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 972 Registered: 02-2007 |
It can probably be said, the casino's made the core what it is today. I don't know if culturally it's for the better and not considering all things. I'm guessing without them, the city would be in much worse shape. Look at all the residential tax payers the city has lost. How would they have made up that even larger deficit? Before the city was always borrowing money it seemed. I remember a big billboard on 94 right by the Lodge back in the late 70's "Mayor Young brings home the bacon" "$650,000 for the city of Detroit" | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3307 Registered: 06-2006 |
$1.3 billion and 7,000 new jobs? Sounds pretty damn good to me...we'll take it! | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1263 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sstashmoo-- That billboard referred to Young obtaining grants from Washington, not loans (not mostly, anyway). Detroit did very well in getting money from Washington during the Carter years. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2923 Registered: 10-2003 |
They are using numbers from the temporary casinos. Only 1 casino has it's permanent casino fully operational. Only two of the hotels are open. Those hotels didn't come on line until late in the year. I think the casinos will be pretty close to hitting their employment and revenue targets with fully operational Hotels and gaming floors. They also conveniently leave out the whole rivertown site fiasco that greatly slowed the building of the permanent sites. I think the casinos would have easily met the numbers if that hadn't happened. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 1055 Registered: 09-2005 |
too bad the regional transit system never was built.... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 4368 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:I'm not really surprised. When I was reading projected benefits back then, I naturally assumed the numbers would be padded just to persuade skeptics. Another way to look at it is to note that the numbers weren't padded even more than that. I'm more concerned about where casino profits go versus where they would have gone had the casinos never appeared. I can't think of a way to accurately determine that information though. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2596 Registered: 04-2006 |
How much of that money is coming in from outside of the local economy? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2925 Registered: 10-2003 |
Maybe if we got huge federal subsidies to bury freeways we wouldn't have needed casinos in the first place. The Boston Herald must have run out of stories on the big dig fiasco and needed a new target. | ||
Kjwick Member Username: Kjwick Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2003 |
iheartthed, that would be VERY interesting to know. i wish some type of zip code survey could be done in order to get an understanding of who is spending money at the casinos. are the casinos taking money from the poor who can't afford to lose it (and therefore exacerbating the poverty in the city) or is the majority of the $$ coming from wealthier communities? also, it would be very interesting to know the real (or approximate) number of individuals from outside of SE MI that are coming to the D for entertainment. I think that the casinos could be a key player in attracting more conventions and national events (sporting, political, etc) to city. on the other hand, it's hard to dismiss the possible effect the casinos could have on a middle class that is falling lower and lower on the economic ladder. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 1056 Registered: 09-2005 |
The key to the entire article is the last paragraph: "Michigan politicians pushed through legalization by focusing on how much local money was flowing to casinos across the Detroit River in Windsor, Ontario, much like Massachusetts’ drive has been fueled by concerns about tourism dollars going to Connecticut casinos." How could Michigan politicians not grant Detroit at least one casino in the face of Casino Windsor making money hand over fist? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2019 Registered: 12-2005 |
Quote:"i (sic) wish some type of zip code survey could be done in order to get an understanding of who is spending money at the casinos. are the casinos taking money from the poor who can't afford to lose it (and therefore exacerbating the poverty in the city)" Don't go on the 3rd or the 17th of the month......................... .... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2597 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: That and since the casinos apparently aren't creating spin off business, are they at least attracting money from outside of the region. Are Metro Detroiters providing this extra source of tax revenue that is filling holes in the city and state budget or is it from outside tourism? There is a big difference. The occupancy rates of the permanent hotels thus far suggest the former. I would have to know the answers to that before I could say this is good for the economy. I used to think the casinos were a boost for the city. But a lot is left to be desired IMO regarding their status as the savior of Detroit or a significant driver in Michigan's economy. I don't think Michigan should okay any more casinos for Detroit than what already exists. I'm not against them either. I think they provide Detroit a novelty that isn't found in any other city of it's size or larger. The key component to capitalizing on this is attracting outside tourism. The casino owners really don't care where the money is coming from just so long as it is coming. So it is up to the local government to put provisions in place to ensure that the casinos are doing their part to attract dollars from outside of the local economy. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4929 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Nonsense! Aren't nearby pop Chop shops and the like prospering due to casinos? | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 410 Registered: 04-2004 |
"what was the economy like in 1998 compared to now?" Exactly what I thought. Boston Herald reporting statistics for the sake of reporting statistics, but ignoring other factors. | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 214 Registered: 05-2006 |
That boston herald article is crap. Like everyone said, they left important factors out. Moreover, the title of this thread implying that the Detroit papers won't report this is ridiculous. Doesn't seem like the Detroit papers have much of a problem outing problems that are present in this city. On the other hand, maybe they didn't report this because they were too busy sifting through 14,000 inappropriate texts. | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 544 Registered: 04-2006 |
Yah, this article was found to carry a lot of misinformation and painted a bias to its readers in greater Boston...that being anti casino. Plus, Greektown Casino hasn't finished its expansion yet. | ||
Melocoton Member Username: Melocoton Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2008 |
The posters who have said that a half-billion dollar shortfall doesn't matter--because something is better than nothing--remind me why politicians are able to get away with so much these days. If the city was sold a certain bill of goods, and the casinos didn't deliver on the investment, shouldn't that matter to us? And to those who point out our current economy as the reason for the shortfall--shouldn't the 1998 income projections have considered the possibility of future recessions? It's not like 1998 was that long ago, people, nor is Michigan's current weak economy some giant surprise no one could have predicted. The 1/3 figure cited above is astounding if true. I read recently that in 1970, federal investment accounted for around 25% of Detroit's annual budget (don't know what it is now, but probably less than half that). In other words, we now rely on casinos more than we used to rely on the US government. | ||
Hybridy Member Username: Hybridy Post Number: 205 Registered: 08-2006 |
ha- personal bankruptcies and suicides in wayne county have exploded, and detroit papers won't publish that either the casinos are entirely self-contained shopping, eating, parking-its entirely possible to avoid the city all together with new parking garage access greektown is the only casino that creates minor street traffic which already existed prior to the casino not to mention they're giant superblocks (Message edited by hybridy on January 25, 2008) | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 232 Registered: 11-2007 |
Coinless slots led to several hundred lay-offs between the 3 casinos. I guess you can't blame them for taking advantage of technology. | ||
Softailrider Member Username: Softailrider Post Number: 115 Registered: 02-2007 |
There's people that I know who had not been in the city for years until the casinos opened . If there were no casinos they wouldn't come into the city at all . They gamble , then sometimes they eat at the casino and they go home . Sadly , their scared to go anywhere else in the city . | ||
Ferntruth Member Username: Ferntruth Post Number: 308 Registered: 11-2006 |
"There's people that I know who had not been in the city for years until the casinos opened . If there were no casinos they wouldn't come into the city at all . They gamble , then sometimes they eat at the casino and they go home . Sadly , their scared to go anywhere else in the city ." Yes, sadly I know people like that too. In fact, one person I know who loves gambling goes to Windsor to do it. When I asked him why do that when there are 3 casinos closer and much easier to get to, he told me that he wouldn't feel safe in the casinos, and cited a couple of stories about people who were followed from the casino and robbed as "proof" they are unsafe! I remember I actually laughed at him at first, thinking he was pulling my leg or something. I have my issues with Detroit (mostly how ineffective its government can be at times), but even I have to say the improvement has been dramatic. Another reason I find the whole text messaging debacle so disappointing. Yet another distraction from moving the city forward. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 394 Registered: 06-2005 |
The Boston-Herald editorial staff rebutted this article the next day with an opinion piece entitled "Casinos are no gamble" and used Detroit as their example. http://news.bostonherald.com/n ews/opinion/editorials/view.bg ?articleid=1068848 | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 431 Registered: 09-2006 |
Im not really a big casino guy myself but I have lived downtown essentially since 1988 and trust me , there is a huge difference in the city with them than before. Casinos certainly are not a panacea for all that ails Detroit but they have provided thousands of jobs, new business and a vibrancy to the downtown at least that was not there. For that reason I do feel they have definetly benefited the City. I know many people who come downtown to socialize , and the casinos played a big part in re acquainting them with the Downtown and what is here,, They are not hesitant to come downtown anymore. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6209 Registered: 08-2004 |
Talking about casinos and their effect on Detroit always reminds me of the tale of the 7 blind men touching and describing different parts of an elephant. There's plenty of good and bad that people can find. And often they use that particular good or bad in making their arguments, at the expense of the total Casino cause/effect. As already mentioned, the coinless slots streamlined a labor intensive process and cut hundreds of jobs. Ditto for going from 800 hotel rooms down to 400 rooms per casino... fewer employees needed. To somehow use Detroit's inital casino projections as proof that it somehow is a failed enterprise, is simply absurd. |
