 
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1927
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:32 pm: |    |
aside from the obvious folly of a walkway over hart plaza from cobo to the rencen from a cost and walkability standpoint, that would really be the easiest way to single-handedly aesthetically ruin that entire space along the riverfront |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11203
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:42 pm: | |
quote:"LBP is being nothing more than an obstructionist."
That's quite an analysis. You seem to have him all figured out.
He's not really concerned about any of the issues he's raising...he just wants to be an obstructionist! Brilliant!
I honestly expected that you'd have more to offer to this conversation.
Well if you have it all figured out please enlighten us. We all agree that there needs to be a thorough look at every dollar spent. LBP however has done nothing beyond saying 'these are our numbers' and we will consider stepping to the table once everyone else has committed'
Your blind love for LBP taints your view as much as my dislike of him taints mine.
I see you choose not to address any other points. You obvioiusly need to travel more often if you believe that the hotel taxes here (even if tripled) would change plans for the vast majority of people. I can start faxing you my hotel receipts so you can see hoe taxes are levied in other parts of the country/world.
Surely you understand that LBP's fight against the hotel taxes and his claim of sticking up for his constituents is nothing more than fighting for the sake of fighting.
If he offers to step up and work with Ficano I the numbers I will happily commend him. At this point all he ash done if respond with 'numbers are too high', 'we have a better plan', 'I have an outside investor (who still has yet to be named)','I don't want to increase taxes for people in OC (which he won't be doing'
I suspect Ficanos plan has a lot of holes and waste but the proper response isn't 'your plan sucks, here's my plan' which LBP has been doing for years. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2538
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:45 pm: | |
quote:I can start faxing you my hotel receipts so you can see hoe taxes are levied in other parts of the country/world.
Hoe taxes? What kind of business traveling are you doing?? lol. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11204
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:47 pm: | |
I did have quit a number of spelling/grammar mistakes there.
I can assure you that I expense my hotel bills but I pay my hoe bills out of my own pocket.  |
Baltgar
Member
Username: Baltgar
Post Number: 98
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:51 pm: | |
The article is very poorly written. The facts are hard to find and more difficult to decipher. From what I read Ficano is proposing very close to what LBP was asking for in substitution with the original Ficano proposal ($968M). Ficano is proposing:
- $323 million for a 120,000-square-foot expansion; (LBP proposed $377M plan for the same size)
- extend hotel and liquor taxes
- make Cobo a sales tax-free zone (this may even include Rock Center, an OC business)
So, Ficano is proposing a cheaper expansion of the same size with similar details. The only differences I can see is a $150M chip in from the state and the stupid elevated walkway ($25M) to the Ren Cen and Sheraton Detroit Riverside.
The article needs to state more clearly what the $846 million figure LBP is stating is all about. The only thing I can figure is what Novine suggested (^).
IMO, we need more facts before we can criticize one way or the other. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 4566
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:53 pm: | |
walkways, no
tax-free zone, yes
lbp, no
"Your blind love for LBP taints..."
no comment |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2687
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:59 pm: | |
Is this really the best use of $300MM - $900MM (depending on which numbers you use)? There's not some magic unlimited money source. A half-billion spent on COBO could otherwise be spent on a light-rail system. Which is more desirable? That can be debated but currently people are looking at the Cobo decision in a vacuum.
Or you could spend hundreds of millions on incenting companies to come to Michigan with jobs. What would $500MM do if dedicated to historic preservation, or college tuition assistance, or putting more police on the streets, or cutting DPS class sizes, or your favorite gov't program? What about reducing taxes, rebuilding bridges, or whatever you think is important? Money spent on Cobo is money not spent on something else. I'm not convinced that spending mega-dollars on Cobo is the best choice.
Combine the fact that there are meaningful alternatives with some skepticism about the auto show economic impact figures, the fact that even if the NAIAS became less of a premier event (real threat or hollow posturing?) there'd still be a big auto show at Cobo every year, automakers would still make show properties here where the display companies are and truck them to shows across the country (as they always have done) and the big cost for a small expansion of Cobo isn't justified by the small drop-off in economic activity, despite the blow to some folks' egos. |
Genesyxx
Member
Username: Genesyxx
Post Number: 846
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:59 pm: | |
I think we can all agree that the walkways are just poor taste. You want people to be connected to the city, not disjoin them from it. Plus, that's what the People Mover is for. As for connecting people to the Sheraton, its right across the street! That's just bad planning. That should take about $10-$20 off of the total cost.
That being said, I entirely agree with JT1. The fact that Patterson wants Macomb to sign on first, and still wants tax-free status for its convention centers speaks greediness loud and clear. They want too big of a cut of something that they already had a percentage of. True, most of the hotels in the area are in the OC, but the region is suffering, them included. Cobo needs an expansion, and this plan (minus walkways) is a very good plan to execute. Get off your high horse before we lose everything. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2688
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:04 pm: | |
quote:You obvioiusly need to travel more often if you believe that the hotel taxes here (even if tripled) would change plans for the vast majority of people. Jt, normal business travelers just pay the bill, without caring about the taxes, but meeting and convention planners look carefully at hotel taxes, airport taxes and the like when they evaluate the total cost of bring their group to a meeting in Detroit vs. Cleveland vs. St. Louis vs. wherever else they're considering. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 355
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:05 pm: | |
"Now as a frequent business traveler the taxes (which are ridiculous in some areas) have no bearing on where we travel for work. I think that you need to travel more and look at the numbers elsewhere."
Amen to that. The idea that the taxes that people pay on their hotel bills has any influence on whether they travel to Detroit or not is ludicrous. The question isn't whether their should be a tax or not. People are already paying it. The question isn't about the rate. It's going to stay the same. It isn't even about whether to extend it or not. Brooks doesn't have any problem with the tax. It's all about which pocket the revenues go into. Notice that Brooks isn't advocating to end the tax. He still wants people to pay the tax, he just wants the revenue to go to him, not Cobo. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2689
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:06 pm: | |
From WJR, more detail on LBP's numbers:
quote:(DETROIT) - A new project to expand Cobo Center, in downtown Detroit, has been in the works for sometime now. Governor Granholm is expected to make an announcement sometime tomorrow. Previous proposals have included plans from Wayne County executive Robert Ficano.
In a interview today on "The Frank Beckmann Show," Oakland County executive L. Brooks Patterson told Frank that Oakland County was left out of the loop. Patterson feels that Robert Ficano's plan is riddled with questions and the numbers just don't add up.
Ficano's proposal for the expansion of the Cobo Center is as follows:
In late October 2006, a contingent from the Wayne County Executive's office approached Oakland County with a proposed Cobo Hall expansion plan. Simply put, Wayne County's plan calls for the issuance of $968 million in bonds, with the bonds to be paid off by extending the hotel and liquor taxes currently set to expire in 2015 for an additional 22 years, that is, from 2016 to 2037.
Components of Wayne County's $968 million Plan included:
Cobo Renovation/Expansion - $425 million
The renovation cost has been segregated into that which is needed for the expansion of the exhibit hall space and the costs of upgrading the facility for building code violations and other deferred maintenance, which is $209 million of the above amount. Several smaller expansions have recently been proposed as noted in the September 4, 2007 agenda and related minutes.
Purchase of Cobo Convention Facility - $20 million
The Wayne County Plan calls for the creation of a Regional Authority that will purchase the Cobo Convention Center from the City of Detroit for $20 million, even as the region is now expected to fund the $209 million in maintenance costs incurred over the past dozen years.
Payoff of the current debt - $110 million
In order to clear the title to the convention center and transfer ownership of it from the City to the Regional Authority the present debt must be repaid. Thus, $110 million of the $968 million bond proceeds are proposed to be used to pay-off the existing debt.
Cash Incentive Disbursements to 83 counties - $233 million
In order to immediately utilize all of the proceeds of the existing hotel and liquor taxes expected to be received from now until 2015 contemplates providing a discounted, lump-sum distribution to all counties based upon the amounts from the future collections. The discount rate is set at 10% - far in excess of the normal investment rates limited under State statutes. These current hotel and liquor tax proceeds are used by counties to support general fund operations and to fund local substance abuse programs. Apparently, the plan's proponents believe that in these troubled economic times, Michigan's county governments will be willing to accept a reduced, lump sum payment today in exchange for giving up larger cumulative payments between now and 2015 and forego any extension of the hotel and liquor taxes for their general fund operations and substance abuse programs.
Endowment Fund to Subsidize Operations - $180 million
The Wayne County Plan recognizes that even an updated and expanded convention facility cannot generate enough revenue to support itself. Thus, the plan calls for borrowing $180 million to subsidize convention center operations. This $180 million loan would be repaid out of the proceeds from the to-be-extended hotel and liquor taxes.
TOTAL PROJECT COST
Cobo Renovation/Expansion - $425 million
Purchase of Cobo Convention Facility - $20 million
Payoff of the current debt - $110 million
Cash Incentive Disbursements to 83 counties - $233 million
Endowment Fund to Subsidize Operations - $180 million
TOTAL $968 MILLION |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11205
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:09 pm: | |
quote:Jt, normal business travelers just pay the bill, without caring about the taxes, but meeting and convention planners look carefully at hotel taxes, airport taxes and the like when they evaluate the total cost of bring their group to a meeting in Detroit vs. Cleveland vs. St. Louis vs. wherever else they're considering.
That is a fair point and more than likely true. It however does not change the fact that our hotel taxes are much, much cheaper than most places I have been. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11206
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:11 pm: | |
Track - Aren't those Fiacno's old numbers? He has revised the plan down significantly if I understand correctly.
So LBP is courting popular opinion by supplying old numbers. Seems like a pretty poor tactic for someone that claims to want to cooperate. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2690
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:22 pm: | |
Oops, my bad.
Nevermind. |
Detroitbill
Member
Username: Detroitbill
Post Number: 423
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:28 pm: | |
Actually, as of 2009 the "bulk of hotels" will not necessarily be in Oakland County by any means with the three casinos, the Book , the Shelby, the Sheraton Riverside, Marriot and all the other existing ones. At that point a majority ( or very good portion) of visitors will probably stay in the proximity of Cobo and downtown, the same goes for any other major conventions as the entertainment venues will by and large also be downtown.. Im sure LBP sees this and doesnt think Oakland will be getting as much benefit from any plan. Wayne should just act accordingly. LBPs importance may be diminishing. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3253
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:29 pm: | |
"Your blind love for LBP taints your view as much as my dislike of him taints mine."
I actually don't like him very much...there's not very many republicans that I'm a fan of...I think your problem is that your hatred and disdain of him runs so deep than when you encounter someone who doesn't share that hatred, they seem like a fan of him...it also causes you to oppose sound judgment simply because you dislike the person exercising it, such as working out the discrepancies in the projected costs before jumping into this thing feet first.
"You obvioiusly need to travel more often if you believe that the hotel taxes here (even if tripled) would change plans for the vast majority of people. I can start faxing you my hotel receipts so you can see hoe taxes are levied in other parts of the country/world."
The issue is not one of whether to have a hotel tax or not, but rather how much of a hotel tax we're talking about....if Cobo is going to be paid for by extension of the hotel/liquor tax (which is reasonable), but it ends up costing 3x what was anticipated, what do you think is going to happen to that reasonable hotel tax?
"... our hotel taxes are much, much cheaper than most places I have been."
That's right, they are. I think you're starting to understand the issue now. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 531
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:35 pm: | |
thejesus,
they would probably extend the length of the tax before they would raise the rate of the tax. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11207
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:42 pm: | |
tj - I can agree that my dislike of LBP skews my perception but I disagree with some of your statements:
quote:t also causes you to oppose sound judgment simply because you dislike the person exercising it, such as working out the discrepancies in the projected costs before jumping into this thing feet first.
The problem is that he is not coming to the table to work on the cost discrepancies, he is just firing away in the media and making the preliminary process near impossible. Keeping Ficano's plan in check is very important but that is not what he is doing. Working with the other governmental entities is not committing to the project but helping with the due diligence to devise a plan that all can be happy with. He is putting the onus on Ficano and just comes back with 'that plan sucks, here is ours.'
If he stops with that approach I would see it very differently. Nothing he has done has shown that he is willing to work with anyone.
quote:The issue is not one of whether to have a hotel tax or not, but rather how much of a hotel tax we're talking about....if Cobo is going to be paid for by extension of the hotel/liquor tax (which is reasonable), but it ends up costing 3x what was anticipated, what do you think is going to happen to that reasonable hotel tax?
And the real price tag and whittling down the costs and plans to a reasonable level can not be done with LBPs approach.
Imagine you have a partner on a project, he asks you to do the work. Every time you do the work he looks at it and says "Sorry, that stinks. Here's what you should do then bring it back to me and I will review again." It doesn't work well for the end result or for the interested parties and it is exactly what LBP is doing.
They can work together (with Macomb county, city and state) to come up with a plan that is viable or within reason. Waiting on a plan from Fiacno then firing back does not contribute anything positive to the process and will just continue to cause a bigger rift in the relationship between the politicans and potentially their constituents.
quote:"... our hotel taxes are much, much cheaper than most places I have been."
That's right, they are. I think you're starting to understand the issue now.
That does not speak to the issue seeing that the services offered in the other cities/regions are infinitely better than metro Detroit. Sometimes cheapest doesn't win. |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 112
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:47 pm: | |
Uh, according to the Detroit News, the idea is to extend the tax 7 more years. Which I don't understand why ANYONE would get upset about that. As someone above mentioned, it is mostly out of staters who are paying that tax. The current tax is scheduled to end in 2015. The extension would run it to 2022.
In sum, WE are not paying for this. Out of Staters are. And near as I can tell, the hotel tax hasn't stopped people from travelling anywhere, let alone Michigan. These taxes are very, very common.
Also, according to the Detroit News article, the entire tab looks to be $600 Million. The $343 figure is simply for construction costs.
(Message edited by gotdetroit on January 17, 2008) |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:03 pm: | |
quote:I think we can all agree that the walkways are just poor taste. You want people to be connected to the city, not disjoin them from it. Plus, that's what the People Mover is for. As for connecting people to the Sheraton, its right across the street! That's just bad planning.
Attached hotels are pretty much a standard feature with convention centers. Ficano's plan just takes it to ridiculous lengths by trying to connect to the RenCen. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 4570
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:11 pm: | |
"That does not speak to the issue seeing that the services offered in the other cities/regions are infinitely better than metro Detroit. Sometimes cheapest doesn't win."
in my regular travels to chicago, I have yet to stay in a hotel that I would whole-heartedly recommend, and i've stayed at both high-end, highly rated hotels and mid-level places. the city itself offers nothing spectacular except a sort of New York Jr. feel, but, in my experience, much more rude |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3254
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:20 pm: | |
DetNews Cyber Survey
Do you think the $595 million Cobo Center expansion plan is a good idea?
http://info.detnews.com/redesi gn/forums/feedback/lettersinde x.cfm?topic=Cobo_plan_0117 |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 113
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:46 pm: | |
Judging by past anti-detroit messages on the News and Freep forums, my guess is most will think it not a good idea. Just a hunch.
Also, as for our hotel tax being "cheaper than most"? Where are you getting this?
New York - 13.375% + 3.50 per night
Chicago - 15.4%
San Francisco - 14.1% + $0.25
Detroit - 15%
Los Angeles - 14%
Detroit's hotel taxes on par with just about everyone else. I do a fair amount travelling. And interestingly, probably everyone of those taxes (or most of) goes to the convention bureau.
My opinion: Great idea. Wrong mind-set. Oh, and hell-no on a the walkway.
(Message edited by gotdetroit on January 17, 2008)
(Message edited by gotdetroit on January 17, 2008) |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 357
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:03 pm: | |
I can't speak to the hotel tax numbers but let's not forget local and state sales tax numbers. Based on what I've seen in my travels, the final tally on taxes is usually much higher than what a traveler to Detroit would see. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3256
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:14 pm: | |
^agreed...I'm leaving for Toronto tomorrow and I know Ontario has that 5% room tax, but they also have a 8% provincial sales tax, that 5% GST tax, a 5% tax on food service, and that crazy 10% liquor tax
That shit adds up after a night out of eating and drinking |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:27 pm: | |
Novine, Thejesus: Those are cumulative hotel taxes for each city. Same as your Toronto example above - which, for the record is 14% (cumulative)
Where Detroit hotel stayers (word?) are saving money comes from (in most cases) cheaper base rates (compared to the cities above, anyway) |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 115
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:31 pm: | |
Sorry...
Point is, LBP is making much ado about nothing - other than Cobo doesn't happen to be located in Oakland County |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 6:03 pm: | |
LBP sits at the right hand of God.
Listen to him and prosper! |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11209
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 6:08 pm: | |
Gotdetroit -were are your numbers from? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2541
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 6:10 pm: | |
LBP doesn't write checks, checks write LBP. |
Rrl
Member
Username: Rrl
Post Number: 933
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 8:06 pm: | |
Maybe I'm being a little too simple here, but in some very rough terms, a 120,000 SF facility at the stated $323MM pricetag is costing $2,691 per Square F-ing Foot. What on earth could be driving the costs that high? Land aquisition? I thought the City already owns most of the land in the Cobo neighborhood.
Even the most opulent building can be built for well under $1K PSF, and all were talking here is a freaking convention center, mostly a wide open box. It just doesn't add up. |
Rocket_city
Member
Username: Rocket_city
Post Number: 532
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 10:44 pm: | |
I understand LBrooks' concerns and his "proceed with caution" approach, but this is going on way too long and he's becoming an extremely ineffective leader when it comes to embracing regional planning where it counts.
Unless his name is at the top of the proposal, he is not going to agree to anything that comes forth, that's pretty clear. Those who ARE working as team players were able to shave off more than 1/2 the cost of what was originally proposed and Brooks is STILL not even close to being satisfied.
It seems as if, to him, making any commitment to Cobo would be like selling his soul over to the devil not only because he would be leading with a bunch of Democrats but because in his mind, he would be seen as the businessmans' bitch, where in Brooksland, they should be his.
Plus, I think that he thinks he is the influential leader for the rest of the state looking in, particularly Livingston and Macomb Counties. Kinda like, "if Brooks will do it, then so will we." Or, "if Brooks is against it, then it MUST be a bad idea"...since everyone strives to be "Oakland County".
I just don't see this deal happening anytime soon as we would like it. I do see progress being made by cutting the umbilical cord w/ Brooks County and then denying Oakland any profits that are made out there due to events held at Cobo...an anti-regional conclusion to something that doesn't have to be anywhere near this difficult.
The one thing that I am extremely against in the Cobo plan is the elevated walkway through Hart Plaza. Backwards thinking all the way. There's already a covered, weatherproof link to the Ren Cen and it's called the People Mover.
Plus, the walkway should NOT be included in the Cobo proposal anyway. It's not a viable or related piece of convention center expansion. It should be looked at completely as a city-related luxury that again, is a total boondoggle. |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 116
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 10:45 pm: | |
jt1: Those numbers are derived from the hotel bills I've paid in each of those cities....including Detroit |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 934
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 11:15 pm: | |
Rlr,
Right, simple math. Good observation.
Trump Towers or the grandest building in the US could not even approach over 2,600 psf, unless it is gold plated. And at 500 Mill it's $4,166 psf.
I wonder who the bidder on this estimate was.
Mr. Ficano, I will gladly build you convention Center for under 150 Million. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11212
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 11:18 pm: | |
Thanks gotdetroit - I will also keep a running tab of hotel costs on this thread. |
Baltgar
Member
Username: Baltgar
Post Number: 99
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 11:18 pm: | |
Rlr and Lefty2,
Good points! The public needs more information on the exact costs. Also, where is the business case for the walkway. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 363
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 11:42 pm: | |
"Maybe I'm being a little too simple here, but in some very rough terms, a 120,000 SF facility at the stated $323MM pricetag is costing $2,691 per Square F-ing Foot."
That's for the expansion AND renovation. Those numbers are over 820,000 SF (700,000 + 120,000)
"Under Ficano's plan, it would cost $323 million to expand and renovate Cobo Center..." |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 938
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 11:49 pm: | |
Even at $400 psf, this is at least over 100 psf more expensive than any class A building in a HIGH cost city. Plan on cost over runs and a 500 Mill cost. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 364
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:01 am: | |
Cobo Promo site:
http://www.coboformichigan.com /index.htm |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 365
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:03 am: | |
More numbers for those who care from the Promo site:
"Of the $323 million construction budget, approximately $200 million will be used for the total retrofit and renovation of the existing Cobo Hall facility. Approximately $100 million will be needed for the 120,000 square foot expansion to Cobo Hall, and the remaining $35 million can be used for two moving walkways to directly connect Cobo to nearby hotels at the Sheraton Pontchartrain and the Marriott at the Renaissance Center." |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1678
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:36 am: | |
Tear that schitt down!
Explain to me again why Detroit caps off the west end of its downtown, forces pedestrians and vehicles directly onto the Lodge and out of Detroit, and wastes its beautiful waterfront for a f'n convention center?!
There's plenty of vacant land in Detroit. Some of it probably near downtown. Put it there. Maybe old Matty has a good idea in making the MCS a convention center. That's a lot of freakin land out there.
This whole cobo thing is ridiculous. The bickering, the stupid plans, the G-D walkways. SE Michigan is one f'd up bunch of fiefdoms all fighting each other over their crappy little morsel of pie while the rest of the world stomps all over them.
And I too am not so sure if it is worth expanding just for NAIAS. And I'm the biggest NAIAS lover there is. Face it, Detroit just is not going to attract many (especially big) conventions. People/companies just aren't interested. Even if you had a bigger convention center than McCormick, they'd still rather go to Chicago, because its Chicago. Its great to have the world's greatest autoshow, and I hope it continues. But I gotta say, I just don't know if it is worth the money and more wasted downtown riverfront for it. As long as the cars at NAIAS are great, people will still come. Plus I actually think the crowds are part of the appeal. Chicago is much bigger with more vehicles on display and lots more visitors, but it isn't even half as fun as the Detroit show. Mostly because there's so much freakin space.... |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 213
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 1:36 am: | |
I'm not willing to give up the $500 million we get from the auto show each year.
Why not have an independent auditor crunch the numbers and tell us what the real cost is.
Then build it as fast as you can without the lame and wasteful moving sidewalk to the RenCen.
Hopefully, it will be configured to take advantage of the Joe Louis space when Ilitch moves his team, if we need to later.... |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 941
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 10:39 am: | |
Jerome81, Makes sense.
Building a brand new on, say, land near the new stadium would make sense, then they could sell the very valuable Cobo land to someone willing to pay for prime property for a large profit. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:16 pm: | |
I agree |
Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 509
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 3:24 pm: | |
quote:"they could sell the very valuable Cobo land to someone willing to pay for prime property for a large profit."
We have acres and acres of vacant prime riverfront property and I don't see anyone paying big buck for it.
Besides, the city couldn’t even come up with the money to raze Cobo. It would become a massive urban ruin to dwarf even MCS. |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 4:07 pm: | |
I love how the Ren Cen is a "nearby" hotel to Cobo!
Using Google maps, the entrance of Cobo is about 720 metres (sorry about the metric) from the Marriott. Note that the distance from the South side of Cobo to the Hilton in Windsor is about 820 metres. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2547
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 4:13 pm: | |
quote:
Using Google maps, the entrance of Cobo is about 720 metres (sorry about the metric) from the Marriott. Note that the distance from the South side of Cobo to the Hilton in Windsor is about 820 metres.
So, in English you're saying that the entrance to Cobo is nearly half a mile from the Marriott. |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 4:43 pm: | |
Using American English.
Or using Windsor English if you are in Canada.... |
Thegryphon
Member
Username: Thegryphon
Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 9:18 pm: | |
They should really expand Cobo by more than the 120k. If you want more than 1 major convention a year, Cobo needs to be more than a million sq. feet. I know someone who went to Chicago for the Radiology Society of North America Conference. They filled up McCormick Place! 2,670,00 sq. feet FULL. There were no vacancies in any hotels! Imagine turning Cobo Arena into exhibition space (along w/ the Ballroom) & annexing Joe Louis! Getting @ least a million sq. feet is the key to attracting more shows. And making Cobo more lively for more than NAIAS's week. And how about getting them 'burban shows out of Rock Financial Place and into Cobo? Don't have Novi compete for shows w/ Cobo. Scrap Novi's tax-free zone. |
Joeyp1982
Member
Username: Joeyp1982
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 9:54 pm: | |
It should just be a known fact that cobo hall will never ever in anyones lifetime get expanded...because as long as a certain few people have a say so in the decision it will never get done.....period... |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 379
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 11:09 pm: | |
"And how about getting them 'burban shows out of Rock Financial Place and into Cobo? Don't have Novi compete for shows w/ Cobo. Scrap Novi's tax-free zone."
Novi doesn't have a tax-free zone - yet. I don't believe that most of the shows at Rock Financial are destined for Cobo and vice versa. That's why they end up where they do. It's about half the size of Cobo and doesn't have the downtown attractions that you get with Cobo. That's why I don't understand the need for the tax-free zone for the Rock. It's not in competition with Cobo for shows and isn't subject to the same costs that Cobo says it has to overcome to attract conventions. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 380
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 11:12 pm: | |
This graphic is from the previous expansion but it helps provide a nice visual for the various elements under discussion.
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/b logger/5545/936/1600/735181/co bo1205.jpg |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 944
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 11:28 pm: | |
Ramcharger - "We have acres and acres of vacant prime riverfront property and I don't see anyone paying big buck for it."
really? try finding some prime cheap land near downtown along the waterfront, I will buy it tommorow.
If you have prime waterfront property, use it to your advantage where people can pay big bucks to see the water. Not an enclosed box where noone can take advantage of the views.
A developer could build a a million SF office complex on that site and pay for a good potion of the expansion that a new convention center needs so badly. A million plus SF convention center is what is needed at least. Look to the future 50 years and see what Detroit can become, not what it is now. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 442
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 12:26 pm: | |
Why can't the plan include taxes from the Hotel & Liquor Tax and from the Cigarette Tax? If both taxes were used, we could get the 270,000 sq.ft. space that was previously proposed. I think that the 120,000 sq.ft number is too little and to much of a quick fix. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 386
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 1:21 pm: | |
At the state level, cigarette taxes get distributed to School Aid, Medicaid and General Fund. Last time I checked, all of them needed every cent they could get. I don't see state legislatures giving up revenues to fund Cobo. |
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