Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » FBI building contract canceled « Previous Next »
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1513
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New bids will be solicited for Detroit headquarters

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080114/METRO 01/801140346

This line is of particular interest:

quote:

But the government has set aside the contract awarded to Higgins and will call for new proposals, GSA spokesman David Wilkinson said.



Looks like we might end up with something a little less suburban.
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 311
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It will still be pretty suburban, unfortunately there are many new "post 9/11" rules to federal building construction. Continue to expect gigantic set backs and a fortress of concrete and steel barricades such as those around the McNamara building.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 3229
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Looks like we might end up with something a little less suburban."

Unlikely. The grassy fields in the prior design were not the result of a suburban-minded developer, but rather the result of post-9/11 security regulations that call for a barrier and buffer surrounding the main building.
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Gazhekwe
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Username: Gazhekwe

Post Number: 1305
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is already a huge building on that site, formerly the Michigan Plaza Building and before that it was FTD and some manufacturers showrooms. I see they want to demolish them. I cannot figure out why, with so many big empty buildings, they need to build a new one. It seems to me refurbing something like the Book Tower or the Plaza Building or how about the old MGM which is back to back with the IRS would be a lot cheaper.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1787
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If that's how they want to do it, why don't they just bore a tunnel shaft 600 feet into the earth and build a freakin' parking structure atop it. I think that would make an architectural statement about how open our government is.
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Mwilbert
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Username: Mwilbert

Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if you think things have become excessively paranoid (and I do), you can see their point of view. It does make for some really ugly spaces though. There's one federal office building I've seen that was retrofitted with dozens of four-foot diameter brown concrete spheres spaced maybe thirty inches apart all around it to keep vehicles from approaching. The visual effect is unusual, if not desirable. It also takes up a lot of sidewalk space.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1788
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see their point of view too. This country is so unjust and unaccountable, they have to fortify themselves. When the government fortifies itself like this, removing a burden of fear they really should bear, we should all be scared.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 900
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Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is for our own good, like everything the government does.
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Flyingj
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Username: Flyingj

Post Number: 81
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mdoyle "post 9/11"? I think you mean post-OKC, & the nasty Michigan angle that cost 16(9?) lives and made me hear every "militia" joke you can think of when people found out what state you were from...those posts are informally called "McVeigh barriers"
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Detroitpetanque
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Username: Detroitpetanque

Post Number: 40
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


White House


I don't understand why the F.B.I. building needs to have exaggerated fortifications at all?

Here is a photo of some tourist standing in front of the White House. Looks kinda homey, yes? Sure, I presume there's all sorts of hidden sensors and security details there to prevent some guy from climbing the fence and approaching... but the immediate visual landscaping looks... just plain - no visible concrete crash barriers for vehicles beyond the fence.

Surely a satisfactory F.B.I. building in Detroit - is not supposed to be a castle with multiple walls, concrete crash barriers, and electrified fences while we, "the villagers", are left outside to perish under some perceived siege by truckloads of machine gun equipped terrorists. And really, if the F.B.I. is doing a lousy enough job to allow truckloads of terrorists to assault their building, are they really doing their job?

If a gov't building needs that sort of defensive fortification, then why doesn't they also mandate the same for schools and businesses?

I think there's some very big money contractors upselling the need to build a fortress, when just another plain vanilla office building needs to be built.

And like others have stated, why not use the buildings that are already sitting around? Sure, you can run fiberoptics through them for new technology, but clearly you don't need moats filled with flaming oil!
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 903
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They need to keep the government running in case of civil unrest.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1789
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So much for government "of the people, by the people and for the people."
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 674
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, if they MUST have their suburban set back and barrier... why not do it in this manner that i've illustrated below:

In image one, I show roughly what the FBI wants... a super block surrounded by road with a fort-like wall around it... That is EXTREMELY uninviting...

In image 2, instead of a wall, why not build dead end alleys and stores, so that pedestrians could walk more easily... this would enhance the urban fabric... and would create a batch of new "zero" crime stores... who would steal from a store next to the FBI!?

no need to have "wall"





(Message edited by andylinn on January 14, 2008)
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1790
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting proposal: Using a modified form of the old Jacobs-style "eyes on the street" as security instead of physical obstacles. I know they'd never go for it, but I like it. :-)
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 447
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They should partner with Wayne County to buy the MCS and renovate it and the Old Book Depository. Create a "government" campus over there.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 675
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

there could still be a wall behind the stores... but not having a road abuting the wall as shown above would be MUCH better (at least I think)
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1791
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it says a lot that the current standards in public architecture in the United States see people as problems: Trespassers, terrorists, vagrants, etc. It truthfully reflects a growing medievalism in our society: Higher ramparts! Deeper moats! More barriers!
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 676
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

spot on.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 274
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Here is a photo of some tourist standing in front of the White House. Looks kinda homey, yes? Sure, I presume there's all sorts of hidden sensors and security details there to prevent some guy from climbing the fence and approaching... but the immediate visual landscaping looks... just plain - no visible concrete crash barriers for vehicles beyond the fence.



The street on which that guy is standing used to be open to traffic until the mid 90's.. All those concrete barriers are just at the ends of the street.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f ullpage.html?res=990CE1DB1531F 932A15756C0A963958260&sec=&spo n=&pagewanted=all


The idea is to prevent truck bombs..etc. not the random crazy hopping the fence.
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Dtroit
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Username: Dtroit

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is actually the South side the guy is standing on, I a pretty sure that is still open to the public, it is the North side (Penn Ave) that was closed because the North side of the building sit much closer to the road than the south side.
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 876
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

In image 2, instead of a wall, why not build dead end alleys and stores, so that pedestrians could walk more easily... this would enhance the urban fabric... and would create a batch of new "zero" crime stores... who would steal from a store next to the FBI!?



Didn't some guy rob a bank that was right across the street from FBI headquarters last week? And here in Detroit, didn't someone get carjacked right in front of the DPD headquarters a few months ago?
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1792
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, they tried carjacking them in front of 1300 Beaubien. It was unsuccessful.
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Detroitpetanque
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Username: Detroitpetanque

Post Number: 42
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why not put the FBI offices in the old Michigan Central Train station building? The location is pretty free of any nearby traffic - the approach to the building can incorporate cement walls and the place is virtually indestructible. Plus, wasn't the Michigan station supposed to be the site of the Detroit Police Headquarters anyway? So now they can kill 2 birds with one stone... FBI Headquarters in the top portion, Detroit Police department in the bottom section.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2510
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 2:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The developer can't do the job because it will cost them too much to do it and the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT won't pay for the cost overruns? Must be a first in government/contracting history.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6979
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 8:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The U.S. Govt' have the money. They Just don't want to use it. That is why our U.S. Govt' is broken!
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Zephyrmec
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Username: Zephyrmec

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The government doesn't have any money, all it has is the power to take your money for their purposes.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6984
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zephyrmec,
Oh yes they do! The Govt' has plenty of money. They just want to spend too much of it for various reasons like the American public goods. The U.S. govt' wants private companies who would do building projects of them will spend some of their money for building supplies and in return give a good ole' tax break and reduce the taxpayers' expense. Failure to follow this procedure will result of scrapping the project and termination of the contract.
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Zephyrmec
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Username: Zephyrmec

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where does the "government money" originate? The only source of income the government has is the ability to tax. It's not "their" money, it is money they have confiscated from us by their power to tax. (or imprison you if you fail to pay)
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Russix
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Username: Russix

Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They should put the new FBI Building inside the old tiger stadium and use the old stadium as the buffering blast wall.
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Detroithabitater
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Username: Detroithabitater

Post Number: 114
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^would put a new spin on "going to the corner"
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6178
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 1:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know it probably doesn't make financial sense, but I've always thought that the MCS would make a great location for a post 9/11 law enforcement center.

Move the FBI, the AFT, Customs, Immigration, and the State, County and Detroit Police HQ to this complex. With all the "information sharing" that is necessary for furure law enforcement, as well as all the perimeter security features that can be had here without creating a super-block in Corktown (albeit that they are reusing an existing one)... I think that the MSC is perfect!
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3863
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

That is actually the South side the guy is standing on, I a pretty sure that is still open to the public, it is the North side (Penn Ave) that was closed because the North side of the building sit much closer to the road than the south side.



E Street (at the south side of the White House) is closed as well. There are security checkpoints at 15th and 17th Streets.

Unfortunately, you guys are realizing what Washingtonians have to contend with on a daily basis--a federal government ensconced in fear. Closed roads, pop-up traffic barriers, oversized planters all over the place, jersey barriers in public spaces--it doesn't exactly reek of confidence.

Granted, we are lucky enough to have the Fine Arts Commission, which has the authority to overrule some of the nastier decisions, as they have at the Washington Monument. Unfortunately, our local government is helpless when the feds decide to close neighborhood streets for "security" (and create more free parking for Congressional staffers).

Now, if you want to see something truly embarrassing, take a walk down to 10th and Pennsylvania and witness the paranoia at FBI HQ.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 4481
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like Gistok's idea of the MCS for a combined security campus. Its wide open spaces would fit the security needs and a beautiful and historic landmark could be restored. Corktown would benefit with more demand for residential housing.

Danindc '...what Washingtonians have to contend with on a daily basis--a federal government ensconced in fear." I imagine that must be a huge nuisance and expense in this age of scaranoia. But if we aren't scared enough who would vote in those wasted billions of unfunded dollars to deal with it?

We are getting more and more a taste of it here. Sometimes, it almost feels like we are heading toward war with Canada. Walk along the new riverwalk and what do you behold but border patrol guards who have sprung up like mushrooms all along the riverfront, on Belle Isle, and more. When picture taking in some of the abandoned riverfront areas I have encountered them. Meanwhile, on the other side, the Canadian border guards are now armed.

The ever-tightening border crossings are a huge nuisance and killing parts of our already struggling mutual economies.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2518
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danindc, what are "jersey barriers?"
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 217
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moats?
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Dbc
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Username: Dbc

Post Number: 96
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 1:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They're ugly-ass, temporary, concrete slabs about three feet high, ten feet long, and a foot thick. They look just like sections of a concrete highway median wall and were placed around a lot of the buildings here in DC after 9/11. They're universally hated, but are a cheap, movable means to provide a more secure perimeter.

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