  E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1482 Registered: 11-2004 |
Detroit crime stats hard to get http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080102/METRO /801020377 | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2006 |
Two troubling points about this article: 1) 2005 is the latest year the city has numbers available for. 2) The realization that the city is not even working on making these statistics easy to access. | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 245 Registered: 07-2006 |
That didn't take long to get here. I knew D-yes would have this article up PRONTO! Kudos to DetNews for bringing the cities' drawbacks to light continually. I know it pisses a lot of you off in here, but in all actuality, without this whistle blowing, there would be no debate. Without debate there is no attention and rationalization. Without that, we get what we got which is a city without responsibility and accountability. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2446 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: 1) 2005 is the latest year that numbers are available on their own web site. They have to report their numbers to the FBI every year, so the data is available past 2005... Just not their own web site. 2) From the second sentence in the article: quote: (Message edited by iheartthed on January 02, 2008) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2447 Registered: 04-2006 |
So basically, this article is to highlight that the Detroit Police Department has a shitty IT department? Surprise, surprise... | ||
Smitch Member Username: Smitch Post Number: 45 Registered: 04-2007 |
quote: Police Chief Bully-Cummings: Whats the excuse? | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 249 Registered: 07-2006 |
"So basically, this article is to highlight that the Detroit Police Department has a shitty IT department? Surprise, surprise..." Yes, and that high-lighter ran out of ink right before they got to "response times", "citizen cooperation" and "homicide rates". And it was a brand new marker right out of the box, I swear! edit: to add quotes (Message edited by tkshreve on January 02, 2008) | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2006 |
shitty indeed! Speaking of accountability, Not having accurate and/or timely information available to the public keeps the citizens of the police beats that require the most attention unaccountable too... Even if the IT department was on the ball how many people that live in the really, really bad police beats have access to the internet and wherewithal to use it to look up anything more than p-o-r-n? Even still, that information would be nice for the rest of us to slice and dice through. | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2006 |
Ultimately, releasing this kind of information could be the cheap way to help police out. It's very possible that once citizens know how bad their police beat is - in comparison to others they get more pro-active and start helping police. Nobody wants crime but nobody want to live on the worst beat either... | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1483 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: Actually, no. I'm one of the more rah, rah types on the forum but the writing of or posting of this story doesn't upset me one bit. Actually, kudos to Mr. Josar who has been turning out some great investigative journalism in the last few months. These types of stories are badly needed here and I am grateful they are still being written. What bothers me is when people get hysterical about issues, such as crime, and start spreading unconfirmed information as if it were fact. That only helps incite more fear and rash judgments when what we really need are a few more cooler heads. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2448 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Yeah, but... The article is not about them withholding the information. The writer of this piece had to get that quoted preliminary murder count (as of this past Sunday) from somewhere... The article is about them not posting the data to the internet. As the Deputy Police Chief was quoted in the article as saying, they don't currently have resources to do that. San Diego and New York City obviously have these resources, which is why they do it. San Diego and New York City also have better public transportation than Detroit. San Diego and New York City also have a wealthier population than Detroit. We could write a book about things that San Diego and New York City have that Detroit doesn't. | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2006 |
quote: I Never said it was. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2496 Registered: 01-2005 |
Well, I retired from the DPD in 1984, practically a lifetime ago. I have to admit it was on the start of a downward spiral then, but I'm dumbfounded as to how the department has gone into a third-world status. It was a leader in so many ways in days gone by, and used to have such pride. Well, thanks for the pension, anyway. | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 107 Registered: 07-2007 |
"San Diego and New York City obviously have these resources, which is why they do it. San Diego and New York City also have better public transportation than Detroit. San Diego and New York City also have a wealthier population than Detroit. We could write a book about things that San Diego and New York City have that Detroit doesn't." You conveniently left out New Orleans. Their crime map is linked right on the first page of the police department website: http://secure.cityofno.com/por tal.aspx?Portal=50 | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 4182 Registered: 12-2005 |
I'm sincerely happy to see no one objecting to exposing this data on the internet. Nothing dispells false stereotypes quite like accurate, current, visible data. If Detroit does this, neighborhoods with decreasing crime rates can use it for PR as they repopulate. Since (I assume) the data already exists in electronic form, it shouldn't require any recurring manpower to continually copy the data to a server with some scripts. I'm surprised it's taken this long. (Message edited by Jimaz on January 02, 2008) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2450 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: No, I didn't. It was irrelevant to my point. New Orleans has a street car too, btw. It also has a much more lucrative tourism industry than Detroit. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3243 Registered: 06-2004 |
New Orleans has also had a lot of Federal money thrown at it ever since Katrina, just as New York has ever since the WTC attack. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 527 Registered: 05-2006 |
I used to buy into the fact that most of the murders were drug related and the victim knew their killer. But why has NYC homicides dropped so drastically? I heard over the weekend that they will end 2007 with 500 homicides. Keep in mind that the population is about 9 million, or ten times that of Detroit, where the 2007 total is over 400. What does NYC know that Detroit doesn't? Somebody better find out what they are doing and get busy applying their tactics in Detroit. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/ 23/newyork.homicide.ap/index.h tml | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 256 Registered: 05-2006 |
Wash_man, that still doesn't mean that the victims don't know their killers, or that they're not drug related. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 531 Registered: 05-2006 |
"Wash_man, that still doesn't mean that the victims don't know their killers, or that they're not drug related." I agree. I guess my point was that NYC was able to curb this kind of crime. I'm sure that most of the 500 in NYC were drug related or the victims knew their killers. It just happened a lot less frequently than in Detroit (per capita). | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2451 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Meanwhile, across the river in Newark... | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 830 Registered: 07-2007 |
I think the reason NYC (now in LA) was successful was that Chief Bratton used CompStat to figure out where crime was going to be committed next, very proactive see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C ompStat | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1566 Registered: 02-2006 |
Meanwhile, from the Chicago Tribune: "Chicago logs fewest murders in 40 years" And their CLEAR system: http://gis.chicagopolice.org/ | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3244 Registered: 06-2004 |
How are NYC's and Chicago's suburbs doing? NYC has had a flight of lower income people due to the high cost of living. Have LA and Chicago had the same? Not only do higher income areas have lower crime rates, but they also usually have more $$ to put toward prevention. Perhaps homicides per average household income level would be a better correlation than homicides per city population. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1568 Registered: 02-2006 |
In Chicago, mostly the South suburbs are getting poorer and blacker as folks who are displaced by the closing of CHA projects like Cabrini-Green, Stateway Gardens, and Robert Taylor Homes move in. Those 3 sites housed somewhere in the vicinity of 45,000 residents at their peaks. For illustration, the demolished Robert Taylor homes had 4,321 units. They will be replaced by mixed-income housing, consisting of only 851 units of public housing. They gotta go somewhere. So yes, there are demographic changes going on in some of Chicago's suburbs. I'm too lazy to hunt for crime data though. But the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma of housing project demolition is for another thread. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 89 Registered: 08-2007 |
Wash_man said: ""Wash_man, that still doesn't mean that the victims don't know their killers, or that they're not drug related." I agree. I guess my point was that NYC was able to curb this kind of crime. I'm sure that most of the 500 in NYC were drug related or the victims knew their killers. It just happened a lot less frequently than in Detroit (per capita)." Stolen from the following Free Press article: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080103/NEW S01/801030397 Browne also attributed the homicide reduction to a real-time crime database, used since 2005, that provides detectives on the streets with information on suspects and crimes. High-tech databases carry information ranging from suspects' tattoos to nicknames. "We're able to retrieve things in minutes that used to take months," he said. The department has also cracked down on domestic violence, by doubling the number of household visits they make over the past several years, he said. Each of the city's 76 precincts has officers dedicated to domestic violence complaints. "We think there is a correlation between the drop in domestic violence homicides and our increased household visits," Browne said. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 571 Registered: 05-2006 |
The problem is not that the DPD does not have the staff or the IT department to do the work. If they didn't, there are a multitude of organizations that do have the staff, the infrastructure and the expertise to do the work for them. I personally would do it for them for free. The problem is the political ramifications of releasing the data (although I strongly disagree with this thinking). Being top of the list for the "Most dangerous cities" doesn't help. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 534 Registered: 05-2006 |
From the same Freep article: "Lillie Skinner, an activist with the Core City neighborhood in Detroit, a troubled area near the confluence of I-94 and I-96 on the city's west side, said she blames the bad economy for Detroit's homicide rate remaining so persistent." Bullshit! When will people (in Detroit and elsewhere) stop blaming other people/circumstances for their actions? This mentality really pisses me off. A little off topic, but this excuse reminds me of a news report I heard recently. Economists are blaming the high rate of credit card default on high energy costs and sinking home values. What about the people who racked up the debt on the card in the first place? My point (and I do have one!) is that people need to look in the mirror sometimes when trying to blame someone for their problems. I'm sick of all the finger pointing for all the world's troubles. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3245 Registered: 06-2004 |
So you're saying Detroit is just a cesspool of homicidal maniacs and a better economic picture in the area wouldn't change a thing? | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 535 Registered: 05-2006 |
"So you're saying Detroit is just a cesspool of homicidal maniacs and a better economic picture in the area wouldn't change a thing?" No..I'm saying that back as far as 1994 the homicide rate was 541. The economy was booming then, so why blame the economy now? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2459 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: The numbers of murders was 541, not the homicide rate. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 536 Registered: 05-2006 |
"The numbers of murders was 541, not the homicide rate." Semantics. My point is that even with a booming economy, the number of murders was high. So how is the bad economy to blame now? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2812 Registered: 07-2004 |
I agree, it is naive to believe that the economy would have a significant bearing on the crime rate. Criminals are the way they are because they are impulsive.........they want it now. As for Detroit others have said it but crime is not a huge priority; it gets lip service. And as someone else mentioned lack of money is a factor. Unfortunately what there seems to be in Detroit is an entrenched, intractable entitlement mentality in the civil service/municipal employee ranks. That includes city council. In some dream world a one term Mayor with no political debt would attempt to rally the public to go to a part time council.The ridiculously bloated council staffs and pay and perks would be cut by at least 50%; and a corresponding number of city workers as well. That might possibly free up enough money to put the focus on the police dept and crime reduction. Instead you have the Beatty fiasco and a police dept that has made little progress regarding the federal mandates laid down. But as I said this would only happen in a dream world......... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2460 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: No... Not semantics. There is a big difference between a rate and a hard number. New York had 579 murders last year but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal when you factor in that the city has 8.2 million people. When Detroit had 541 murders in 1994, New York had over 2,000. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 91 Registered: 08-2007 |
How can anyone say the economy has nothing to do with the crime rate when crime is almost always higher in poorer neighborhoods than it is in wealthier neighborhoods. I can understand someone saying the economy is not the only factor, but to say it is not a factor at all is just ... WOW | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2461 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Stop making sense... | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1569 Registered: 02-2006 |
That has less to do with the economy than it does socioeconomic status. Even in good economic times, there will be higher crime in poor neighborhoods. Sure, a tough economy will make things worse, with more unemployed, but it's not the sole determining factor. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 92 Registered: 08-2007 |
Focusonthed said: " it's not the sole determining factor." My point exactly. It's not the sole determining factor, but IT IS A FACTOR! | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 537 Registered: 05-2006 |
I think you guys have misinterpreted my original thought. The quote I posted from the Freep was "Lillie Skinner, an activist with the Core City neighborhood in Detroit, a troubled area near the confluence of I-94 and I-96 on the city's west side, said she blames the bad economy for Detroit's homicide rate remaining so persistent." I said I'm sick of people blaming others for their actions. She doesn't even mention other factors. Sure the economy is bad. Even worse in some neighborhoods. But the only people to blame for the murders are the ones pulling the trigger and the parents (or lack thereof) that brought them up that way. Do you think if the economy turned around tomorrow and there was an abundance of jobs that the murders would decrease significantly? I doubt it. Once a thug, always a thug. BTW There were 70 murders in Detroit in 1930 during the depression. Pretty bad economy I'd say. Maybe people just knew how to get along better then and not settle differences with violence. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 93 Registered: 08-2007 |
Wash_man said: "BTW There were 70 murders in Detroit in 1930 during the depression. Pretty bad economy I'd say. Maybe people just knew how to get along better then and not settle differences with violence." Or maybe guns and drugs just weren't as abundant and easy to obtain back then. Like I said there are many reasons for crime as even rich, Harvard graduates have committed crimes. My point is a poor person with limited education and job opportunities is far more likely to commit crime than a wealthier, better educated, more job-marketable person is. Like I said, there are other contributing factors to crime but economics cannot be discounted as it is probably the biggest contributor (whether directly or indirectly). As far as blaming the criminal, yes I agree. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what influences a person had to commit a crime it was their decision to go through with it. I have to disagree with on the "once a thug, always a thug" though. Many people have turned their lives around and serve as role models for others to do so. But if you really believe that then you should push for lifetime sentences to people robbing liquor stores or stealing cars. Because what sense does it make to give a thug 2 years for breaking and entering when he's still going to be a thug when he gets out and commit the same crime all over again? | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1572 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Once a thug, always a thug" - NO "A killer will kill, employed or not" - YES | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2813 Registered: 07-2004 |
I disagree Crumbled.I think if you look at the statistics if there are any you wil find criminals of all strpes come from all socio-economic areas. For example the purple gang was made up of mostly middle class guys with intact working families. Here is something I found http://everything2.com/index.p l?node_id=1527487 And I do agree that many people can and do ( I am a product of that) turn things around with hard work and accountability. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2463 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Socioeconomic factors are also correlated to the type of crimes committed. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 538 Registered: 05-2006 |
"My point is a poor person with limited education and job opportunities is far more likely to commit crime than a wealthier, better educated, more job-marketable person is. Like I said, there are other contributing factors to crime but economics cannot be discounted as it is probably the biggest contributor (whether directly or indirectly)." Exactly. But why do they have limited education? Because they CHOSE to drop out of school (drop-out rate 60%+•••• They CHOSE to have unprotected sex as a teenager (more babies having babies, repeating the cycle). They CHOSE to try drugs and get involved in it's culture. That's my point. These decisions are made regardless of the economy and the results of these actions leave them unemployed or at best under employed. This type of behavior has been going on for years regardless of the economy. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3248 Registered: 06-2004 |
And what viable alternative have you offered them? A stable homelife with sufficient food, shelter, clothing? Excellent schools? Engaging after school programs to keep the kids off the streets? Good paying day jobs for the household's parents so that holding two or three jobs isn't required to earn a livable family income? Even if they finish high school can you provide them with an affordable college education? You need to wake up to reality. Until you can come back with suggestions for solutions to stop the cycle and turn it around just STFU, because all you're doing right now is shovelling more shit onto people who are already drowning in it. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 94 Registered: 08-2007 |
Citylover said: "I disagree Crumbled.I think if you look at the statistics if there are any you wil find criminals of all strpes come from all socio-economic areas. For example the purple gang was made up of mostly middle class guys with intact working families." Ofcourse criminals come from all backgrounds, as I stated in my last post. Economic conditions are not the sole cause of certain crimes but the major contributing factor (whether directly or indirectly). From your link: The final social bad that will be discussed in this essay is the thought that the family's actions along with influential peers at a young age can be predictors of future criminals. These actions by the family include poor parental supervision, harsh parental discipline, parental disharmony and rejection of the child are seen as important signs that lead towards criminality in children (Loeber and Stouthamer-Loeber 1986.) In addition to the circumstance of larger families has held an association with delinquent behaviour. It is seen that there are a number of variables, which must be taken into account such as income, family composition and parental criminality (Fischer 1984.) This inturn is seen to have a "contagion" affect on the siblings, being that one delinquent sibling will influence another more impressionable sibling to criminality (Hollin 1992.) Therefore even if the socio-economic context of a family is a variable in the contagion theory, the idea of poverty in combination with the family's domestic influence creates a criminal. Ergo, without the one another (poverty and contagion) this example of crime would not exist, thus they are equal contributers. Neither is more significant than the other. I highlighted the parts that show that poverty is a contributing factor. You don't eliminate certain times of crime when there isn't the money to deal with those crimes. Example, why is it that poor parents usually are less adequate to care for children than wealthier parents? Why is that poor communities have harder times funding police and other crime prevention methods than wealthier communities. Poverty is the biggest contributor but not always DIRECTLY. You can't address a lot of crime problems by expecting people to simply be "moral." Wash_man said: "Exactly. But why do they have limited education? Because they CHOSE to drop out of school (drop-out rate 60%+•••• They CHOSE to have unprotected sex as a teenager (more babies having babies, repeating the cycle). They CHOSE to try drugs and get involved in it's culture. That's my point. These decisions are made regardless of the economy and the results of these actions leave them unemployed or at best under employed. This type of behavior has been going on for years regardless of the economy." Yes, but are these schools properly funded even in great economic times? Is money a major issue in the homes of these children thus negatively influencing the parental decisions being made? It's not just the U.S. economy in general, it's access to money in that community. Poverty indirectly influences certain crimes because it allows for conditions (such as those you mentioned) to exist where they wouldn't in communities that are wealthier. Understand me, I'm not saying that solely addressing economic factors will reduce crime. However, I can't phantom crime being reduced without addressing these issues. P.S.: One can argue that a household led by a single mother is more likely to be impoverished than a dual parent household. However, it is still the impoverished conditions the children are raised in that still lead them down the wrong path. In this argument you would be dealing with what caused the poverty, not that poverty had no effect. P.S. II: I'm not sure what your argument is. It is almost impossible to pin the actions of one person on someone or something else entirely. For the most part, all of us are the main person responsible for our actions. I can make the argument that a criminal didn't steal a car, the person gave it to them. In the grand scheme of things, if a person is parked a red light and a thug points a gun at them and tells them to get out and they do, they indeed did give their car away. But seriously, what would expect them to do? This is the effect of poverty in a lot of situations. In a community where opportunities to prepare children to be gainfully employed, and/or opportunities for employment are limited, people are more likely to turn to crime. In the end, I can't argue with that the criminal isn't the main person responsible for committing a crime. Still, there are situations that make it more likely a criminal will commit a crime than not. This is what I'm addressing. |
