  7051 Member Username: 7051 Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2006 |
An update of this project... http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20071006/B IZ/710060367 This information came from an investor (and retired Dykema and Ford Motor Co. lawyer) in the project. He was at the University District's December general membership meeting. The project WILL break ground in spring. The leases have been signed with JC Penney, Best Buy and Marshall's. Borders Books is still being courted("70% of the way" he said), but due to their current financial difficulties and store closings it has been difficult. Demographics within a 3 mile radius (median income $53,000 and population) are excellent. The architecture will resemble the Shops at Rochester. A red carpet grand opening social affair is the goal upon the project's completion. Parking for 2,100 cars is planned as well as 600-800 jobs added with annual sales of the complex in the $150 million dollar range. Negotiations with retailers have been aided by the likes of Roger Penkse and the editors of both Detroit daily papers. Additional land to the west (owned by the state fronting 8 Mile Road) may be available for future expansion. Interestingly, Trader Joes was initially contacted, but T.J.'s felt that they were "too upscale" for the area. In addition, a mall developer from Chicago was used as Taubman and Schostak were not interested. Great local support... Please email or contact Border's with letters of support as past letters from nearby homeowner's associations and individual residents really helped this project to become a reality. Borders Group, Inc. 100 Phoenix Drive Ann Arbor, MI 48108 734.477.1100 ccare@bordersstores.com write a letter or email to above attn: George L. Jones Ceo | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 251 Registered: 03-2005 |
My heart sinks a little at the 2,100-car parking capacity figure, and I really hope this turns out to be something more charming than your typical big-box development, but I guess beggers can't be choosers. I still think it's going to be a boon for the city and nearby 'burbs. Also, the 3-mile demographics figure, if accurate, is interesting. They suggest that the retail center would largely be dependent on the Detroit neighborhoods immediately across Woodward (Green Acres, Palmer Woods, University District) and suburbs like Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge and the southernmost part of Royal Oak that are closer to 8 Mile than the whole Madison Heights/Troy tangle of comparable big-box retailing. It will also be interesting to see how they incorporate this whole development with 8 Mile itself (particularly considering its proximity to the unusual, bi-level intersection at Woodward). If done right, it could serve as a template for similar improvements elsewhere on the boulevard. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1562 Registered: 02-2006 |
I used to live in Ferndale, and it would have been great to have this there back then, instead of having to drive out to 14 and John R. | ||
Lo_to_d Member Username: Lo_to_d Post Number: 33 Registered: 07-2007 |
Great news. Still want to see a site plan though. I hope they respect the existing street infrastructure. This should be an urban mall with buildings along the street, not another suburban type mall with a 20 year life expectancy. The shoppes in rochester are start but could be better. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 581 Registered: 02-2006 |
Great news!•••••<313> | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2179 Registered: 10-2006 |
Any word on some kind of transit center for the buses? That place almost needs a terminal. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 997 Registered: 12-2006 |
The only bus that will serve the mall directly, unless DDOT is planning something I don't know about, is the eastbound Eight Mile bus, which comes at best every 15 minutes. So there will only be one bus at a time, four times an hour - not sufficient to justify a terminal. SMART doesn't go up and down Eight Mile Road at all. Or is somebody planning to provide service? My expectation is they (the City and developers) believe nearly everybody will drive to the mall. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1571 Registered: 02-2006 |
It's like 1/4 mile from the turnaround at the Fairgrounds. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1002 Registered: 12-2006 |
4/10, actually: 100' from the bus shelters to the sidewalk, 1400' to where the sidewalk turns, about another 400' to the center (E-W) of the property, and conservatively one would have to walk 200' into the property to get to a store. One of the operating assumptions in designing a bus transit system is that 1/4 mile is about the maximum people will walk (given a choice) to catch a bus, and this is about 60% farther than that. Contrast this with, say, Macomb Mall, where several SMART bus routes bring you right up to the building, less than 100' from a mall entrance. | ||
Norwalk Member Username: Norwalk Post Number: 163 Registered: 11-2006 |
All of this while the Bel-Air shopping center on 8 mile near Van Dyke is pretty vacant. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2180 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yeah, so why wouldn't SMART and DDOT want to build some sort of shelter and integrate it better into the shopping center? Why would that not be a good idea? | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 507 Registered: 04-2006 |
Yes, but Van Dyke is not Woodward.  | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2683 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote:What "existing street infrastructure"? The weed-filled lots and broken glass? There's a few crappy cinder block buildings along 8 Mile and that's about it. The rest is urban prairie & parking lot. I'm all for good architecture and smart design but the site is
 | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1009 Registered: 12-2006 |
Charlottepaul, It is a good idea, if the developer and the bus systems don't mind. It will add a couple minutes to the routes, since the Woodward buses will have to turn onto 8 Mile, go into the mall, stop, go back out to 8 Mile, figure out a left turn somehow and get back onto Woodward. That's the only possible fly in the ointment. If it's a truly major shopping center, though, something with a lot of stores and that will attract a lot of people, then it makes sense. I wonder if it's even been considered. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6056 Registered: 08-2004 |
I have to agree with Norwalk on this one... if the Bel-Air Shopping Center didn't make it, then how is this one going to do so? I'm not convinced that the corner of Woodward & 8 Mile Rd. is somehow going to guarantee that this site is going to work when the other 8 Mile Rd. site (1/2 mile east of Van Dyke) didn't. And just look at 8 Mile & Greenfield... once the virtual retail center of the metro area, but now another dying area! (Message edited by Gistok on January 04, 2008) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1010 Registered: 12-2006 |
The demographics (related to income and disposable income) of people living within 5 miles of 8/Wood are much better than those of people living within 5 miles of 8 and Van Dyke, which I believe is the first thing a developer looks at when siting a shopping center. | ||
Lo_to_d Member Username: Lo_to_d Post Number: 35 Registered: 07-2007 |
My point is that, if the sea of parking goes right along Eight Mile or Woodward, to me it will do about as much for the area as the new strip malls do for Highland park... nothing. Nobody said anything about fitting it into a rigid grid, but to follow the previous (many failing today) ideas of a shopping mall would be stupid. That's why mall developers are doing lifestyle centers (rochester's mall). To treat 8 mile and woodward like they are I-75 is retarded. Buildings closer to Woodward and Eight Mile would help slow traffic down and make it much more comfortable for people to walk along those streets, and who knows, actually use public transportation. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1012 Registered: 12-2006 |
Neither one of those streets is designed so as to encourage walking. Both of those streets have more in common with M-59 than with West Vernor. Having said that, the lifestyle center concept is certainly nicer to walk around than a strip mall, and aesthetically more pleasing (to me anyhow) than the old fashioned mall with one massive building surrounded by a moat of parking. A true "urban style" feel wouldn't work here; it always was a suburban kind of area, though within the City proper. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6058 Registered: 08-2004 |
I agree with what you say Professorscott... however many of the Grosse Pointes, Harper Woods and St. Clair Shores are within 5 miles of the Bel-Air. And much of the area from Palmer Woods all the way up to Franklin Village are within 5 miles of 8 Mile & Greenfield. | ||
Chris_rohn Member Username: Chris_rohn Post Number: 373 Registered: 04-2005 |
Lo_to_d may be referring to this existing street grid:  There isn't much left of it but it is (was) there. Did they already bulldoze it all? I can't recall. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1013 Registered: 12-2006 |
Gistok, I'm looking at a map and I have a ruler... none of the Pointes nor SCS are quite within 5 miles of that spot as the crow flies, close but not quite. With regard to the problems of the Northland shopping area, the old-style regional malls are having problems all over the place, and I don't think the location there is as much a problem as the age and lack of care of the properties. I'm not an expert, though, so I could be wrong. Prof. Scott | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4280 Registered: 02-2005 |
Let's just hope for good design, mostly hidden parking, and minimum setbacks on at least one road-frontage. I don't know how any mall gets developed on a grid...that won't happen. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1014 Registered: 12-2006 |
Anyhow, from the photo it looks like the only thing remaining of the grid is the street pattern itself. Not much lost if that goes away or gets modified. I agree with Mackinaw on the parking and setbacks. | ||
Masterblaster Member Username: Masterblaster Post Number: 106 Registered: 03-2005 |
A JCPenny's, Best Buy, and a Marshall's would have SURE, SURE looked nice along Livernois or West Seven Mile in the "Avenue of Fashion" area. Integrating these into the existing buildings and streetscape would have really revitalized that ALREADY walkable (but half empty) retail strip. An injection of those chain stores would be just the kind of inverstment that the mayor envisioned for that retail corridor (in his 6-Neighborhood revitalization plan that included the North End, Osborne, etc.). The mall site is only 2 miles away from the "Avenue of Fashion". NOW what would have been more impressive to you urban lovers? - the revitalization of a once upscale urban shopping district, completely integrated into the surrounding neighborhoods, with 2 major transit routes (Livernois and 7 Mile DDOT) running right through the heart of it, OR the construction of a new mall on the city's periphery that will be generic and relatively isolated. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3845 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^Amen. Masterblaster gets it. Continue on with the mass suburbanization of the city proper.... | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2499 Registered: 07-2004 |
Masterblaster, it's a tough call. Yes, the Avenue of Fashion could use a spruce up, but JC Penney and Best Buy rely on huge amounts of parking. No way is that going to happen at Livernois and Seven Mile unless you tear down homes in that area. See the catch-22? Regarding setbacks, I think the stores should definitely be closer to the Woodward side but not right up on the street. The Eight Mile-Woodward overpass blocks the drivers view coming north from Ferndale and west along Eight Mile. The buildings need to be positioned in a way so that motorists can see that activity is going on. Personally, I have never had a problem with the way the Bel-Air shopping center is laid out. The old Toys-R-Us was close to Eight-Mile but not right up on the street. I could see a building in this development being about that distance from either Woodward or Eight Mile. One thing to remember is that the area for the development is relatively small compared to the entire state fairgrounds. I would say that it makes up about 1/4 or less of the fairgrounds site, so there is not going to be room for a massive amount of parking. Again, this is a good site for a JC Penney and Best Buy. Something completely different needs to go on the Avenue of Fashion. Also, I'm sure that the city and the development will work out something regarding a transit or bus stop. (Message edited by royce on January 05, 2008) | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 1057 Registered: 11-2004 |
Materblaster is far from getting it. Even the best designed urban big box stores require large land parcels and those those aren't available Livernois. (Message edited by eric on January 05, 2008) | ||
Masterblaster Member Username: Masterblaster Post Number: 108 Registered: 03-2005 |
There has got to be a stretch of land along that strip that has a few vacant lots and a few nondescript buildings. Maybe a few building can be demolished and a narrow multi-story parking garage(s) be erected? Also, maybe a (underground) multi-story parking structure could be built in that gigantic parking lot of the grocery store near the corner of Livernois and Seven Mile. The city or developer could build it and have free parking the first 3 hours. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2501 Registered: 07-2004 |
Masterblaster, I agree with the first paragraph of post 108. If there is room for retail on the first floor of a parking garage, then that would be great. Personally, because I like a setting sun shining on me in the evening hours, I could see demolishing most of the buildings on the west side of Livernois-Seven Mile and using that land for parking. The east side could have some side-walk seating for coffee shops and restaurants(if the median is removed and the east side walk widened). BTW, something needs to be done with the old Rite-Aid at the corner of Livernois and Seven. A restaurant with some windows facing Seven Mile and Livernois would bring some life to that building. It might also be the perfect spot for that parking garage( with the restaurant on the ground floor like Sweet Georgia Brown's in Greektown). | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 1059 Registered: 11-2004 |
You could fit a garage on one those lots. But you still have to take out an entire block, if not more, for the actual store. Which means you demolishing some od the nicest housing stock in the city for a big box. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3846 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: If access is assumed only by automobile, then yes. I've seen plenty of department and big box stores with very little parking, and that manage to front on the sidewalk. It's possible if Detroiters stop assuming that everyone will have to drive everywhere. quote: If densely populated cities like New York, DC, and Chicago have room for big box stores to build, then Detroit *certainly* has enough land. Hell--this spring, a Best Buy, Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, Marshalls, and an assortment of locally-owned businesses are going to open on the \i(same) block in DC in the middle of a densely populated neighborhood. And yes, the building fronts directly onto a major street (14th Street). My point is, these things are possible. Detroit needs to change its paradigm instead of perpetuating the same-old. A parking lot with 2100 spaces doesn't exactly generate much in tax revenue. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1507 Registered: 04-2006 |
The homes in that section were bulldozed a long time ago by the DNR so that they could add a campground to the park/fairgrounds. The fairgrounds were eventually separated from the DNR park system and nothing moved forward on that project. I can't recall exactly when this happened but I want to put the time at about 1985 or so. "Detroit needs to change its paradigm instead of perpetuating the same-old. A parking lot with 2100 spaces doesn't exactly generate much in tax revenue." Ahh there is where the problem lies. There are folks in govt who would see a walkable transit orientated development as not generating tax revenue either. Cars = gas tax revenue, transit and pedestrian improvements = draws on the user fees paid to operate the road system. In order for the new paradigm to take hold and be fully accepted you would need to change how we fund transportation in this country. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on January 05, 2008) | ||
Rfban Member Username: Rfban Post Number: 234 Registered: 02-2004 |
Here is the grid being talked about circa 1949 (COURTESY OF DET EDISON 1949, FORMER CULMA-WSU, AND DEPT GEOGRAPHY & URBAN PLANNING-WSU 2007).  | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2007 |
I don't see that there is any similarity between 14th street in DC and Livernois. First, people in DC walk a lot more than people in Detroit in general, and have better transit options. Livernois in that area has no intersecting potential shopping streets except to a very limited extent 6 and 7 mile. In DC, people walk along 14th street in the course of their daily activities, and there is little reason for them not to stop and shop. There are lots of cross streets with pedestrian traffic. And, as you say, it is in the middle of a densly populated neighboorhood. From what I can see, virtually no one with a choice (and thus money to spend) walks along any part of Livernois from I-94 to 9 Mile, possibly excepting right across from UDM. The adjacent neighborhoods between 6 and 8 Mile are nice, but not exactly densely populated. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that you could have successful large stores in that area without a lot of parking. And just because there is a lot of land in Detroit doesn't mean there is a lot of appropriate land along Livernois--in particular the lots aren't deep. The strip mall at Livernois and Margareta has terrible parking because there isn't enough room. Ironically, I think that lot would have been better without a setback, because the parking access from the sidestreets would probably work better. I would love to see improved retail on Livernois, but I don't know what would be successful. It looks like Mike's Fresh Market is doing pretty well, so maybe some of the locations nearest to the 7 mile/Livernois corner could see some more traffic--but not much on foot, I wouldn't think. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3848 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Do you really mean this? Does the gas tax even come CLOSE to the property taxes, sales taxes, and rents (and thus income taxes) generated by creating leasable space (instead of parking lots)? Preposterous at best! quote: And that, my friend, is precisely because of deliberate urban design. This shit doesn't just happen on accident. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 1060 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: I never said there wasn't enough land, I said the the lots along Livernois are too shallow for big box stores | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2007 |
There are community style malls all over the country. The first one that comes to mind is Easton, in Columbus, Ohio. I think if a mall like that were to be developed, then I would feel less uneasy about this development. http://www.eastontowncenter.co m/ | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1508 Registered: 04-2006 |
Dan, Yes we need to change how transportation is funded in this country. Notice I don't disagree with anything but that. I am just offering that there is a contrarian force that you will need to work against. I don't disagree that it is shitty development. America is settling too much for mediocrity in most of these projects. You don't think any development that occurs there won't be heavily subsidized with tax incentives? What about public costs incurred by the development (both capital and other governmental costs such as police end fire), have you factored those into the tax picture. It could end up costing the City millions and expand the amount of services it is left to provide without achieving any tax revenue. | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 838 Registered: 02-2004 |
The big picture is that its in a prime location. For the Bel-Air naysayers, you had the truck routes and Warren bordering it, so it struggled and rightfully so. The 'Avenue of Fashion' simply doesn't have the available space and support of its community to sustain big business. With this location, you have Ferndale, Hazel Park and to some extent Royal Oak within driving distance. Here's to optimism! | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2503 Registered: 07-2004 |
Good points, Genesyxx. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2004 |
For people who like Best Buy I'm sure the draw area will be bigger considering that the three nearest stores are in Roseville (13 Mile/Gratiot), Southfield (12 Mile/Telegraph), and Madison Heights (14 Mile/John R). That means that people in Oak Park, Ferndale, Hazel Park, Pleasant Ridge, Huntington Woods, southern Royal Oak, southern Warren, and even as far as southeastern Southfield and southwestern Eastpointe would be closer to this location than to any other. And then you have the 1 million people who live in Detroit, Highland Park, and Hamtramck who would gladly shop at this location. | ||
One_shot Member Username: One_shot Post Number: 345 Registered: 11-2003 |
I was uncomfortable with the statement "too early to name names" until I seen them in this thread. Still will wait to see who will actually open up though as they have a one year window to do a feasibility study. I didn't see Woodward sell out in a month. I hope it all pans out as this is another block to rebuilding the city! | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1515 Registered: 04-2006 |
"And then you have the 1 million people who live in Detroit, Highland Park, and Hamtramck who would gladly shop at this location." This was said regarding Best Buy. Sorry, I live in a well-populated part of Detroit with a Best Buy and Circut City about 1/2 mile from my home. Why would I go there? | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1389 Registered: 01-2004 |
quote: It might not be the closest BB for everyone in the city, but it'll certainly be a nice option for others in the city. I'm in midtown, and generally I'll go to the Dearborn Best Buy. Given the option though I'd love to just take the drive down Woodward, or quick trip on 75 for the city Best Buy. Plus that location would serve the neighboring suburban communities like Ferndale, Royal Oak, etc. It might be a successful location. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11165 Registered: 10-2003 |
DP - I understand that you have to do what is most convenient (especially if your schedule is busy and/or you have kids) but I would strongly encourage anyone that lives in the city to take the extra few minutes to support a business in the city as opposed to a comparable business in the suburbs. The city has real issues to deal with (crime, schools, taxes, etc) but a very, very important issue is lack of business and tax base. The more dollars spent on businesses in the city makes the city a more appealing place for other businesses to invest. Just my 2 cents. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 1049 Registered: 09-2005 |
Of course, Canadians may stop at the new shopping center on the way to Oakland Mall. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11166 Registered: 10-2003 |
By the time it is built the Canadian dollar will be worth two US dollars. How could you pass up the opportunity to shop there. | ||
Talleman1 Member Username: Talleman1 Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2005 |
In Maumee,OH they build a little urban town, what about something like this? http://www.shopleviscommons.co m/ | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1516 Registered: 04-2006 |
JT, why would I drive cross town, when I can walk to these stores or chain the stop into other trips? Don't get me wrong, I am all for spending money within the City Limits. However I am more for saving gasoline, improving air-quality, and supporting the businesses closest to me regardless of what side of the border they are on. To say that all million would be in the market to shop at Woodward and 8 is not being realistic. Geographers such as Christaller and Von Tunen explain central place theories pretty well, I'd suggest anyone interested in market size review their writings. | ||
Thegryphon Member Username: Thegryphon Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2007 |
RE the parking discussion, such a mall IN DETROIT is amazing in itself, I am all for the parking garages or even better underground parking. BUT it is very expensive to build a parking garage --far cheaper for surface parking --and even MORE expensive to build underground. It is about 5x the cost of underground parking vs. surface. Parking should be adjacent to the State Fairgrounds with thoroughfares coming from 8-mile and Woodward. Maybe auxillary parking could be available on the Grounds with a shuttle system? If we want this pj. to succeed one should support almost any cost saving measures possible. | ||
Lopsidedfrock Member Username: Lopsidedfrock Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2007 |
^hey Levis Commons is in Perrysburg, OH. Maumee has a newer lifestyle center: The Shops at Fallen Timbers. It effectively killed one of the malls in the Toledo city limits, Southwyck. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2506 Registered: 07-2004 |
This discussion has got me thinking. Would this same development or even a smaller retail development be in a better location if it was built at Seven Mile and Woodward, where the Palmer Park golf course and central division police station are located? I throw this out here because retail at that corner would to me be more easily accessible to residents in the University District, Sherwood Forest, and Palmer Woods, at least from the standpoint of walking. I find that any retail on the State Fairgrounds is still a distance from those in those three areas because of the cemeteries and the wideness of Woodward(especially if the residents want to walk to it). Put retail along Seven Mile and Woodward and put most of the development along Seven Mile, then you have an opportunity for more "window dressing" walking by the residents in that area. Also, a retail development at Seven Mile and Woodward would solve the problems faced by the Avenue of Fashion: lack of parking and lack of space for Big Box retail. Just a thought. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1385 Registered: 06-2005 |
Royce, I think the reasoning behind the 8 Mile/Woodward location is that, while it will serve the 3 districts that you stated, It will still better serve the Suburban communities that lie along the 8 mile border. The people on the other side of 8 Mile Rd. would rather visit a mall in Detroit ON the border that cross into the city limits 1 mile PAST the broder. | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2007 |
I imagine the reasoning is that everyone who goes there will come by car, or possibly on a bus down Woodward, and 8 Mile is a lot bigger/faster route than 7 Mile. Also, there is more space. It is certainly true that the 8 Mile/Woodward location isn't very walkable, but I find it hard to imagine that there are a significant number of people who would walk from the University District or Sherwood Forest to shop at 7 Mile and Woodward in any case. Palmer Woods, I could believe, but from the other two it is too far to walk by contemporary standards, and although it isn't an unpleasant walk, there's nothing commercial on either side of the street the whole way, reducing motivation. The Seven Mile bus now runs crosstown so people could use that to get there more easily than they could to 8 Mile, but people in those neighborhoods generally won't ride the bus either. Maybe some kids would. |
