Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » The Griswold is scrapped for now... « Previous Next »
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 1081
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 5:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know four people who have been laid off from Quicken in the last six months. Quicken is shedding jobs, so I wouldn't bet on an uber-size investment. As much as I'd love to see the Woodward Avenue Girder Farm sprout something, I'm not gonna lie: Having the Lafayette Building saved would be, in a word, amazing. Plus, all the Quicken folks could just step outside the door and get coneys. Everybody wins.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 1082
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 5:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And just as a reminder of how pretty it could be:

http://i215.photobucket.com/al bums/cc280/buildingsofdetroit/ Postcards/LafayetteBuilding.jp g
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 813
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "Why aren't you outraged? What do you mean "you'd have to question it?"

Exactly what I said. Just more of the same. Outraged? Nope, Upset? Nope, Surprised? Nope, Disappointed? Yes. Should the state step in an investigate possible misappropriation of funds and possible fraud? You bet. This whole thing just stinks of a scam. These boys aren't dumb. 1.5 million just got lost? Doesn't this sound familiar to anyone?
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1623
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just remember that the garage is still getting the reinforcement to hold the building, and the company that was doing the Griswold still owns the air rights to build.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1272
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, and Visteon is still leasing out One Kennedy Square.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3863
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Statements like these ignore the actual cost of new hi-rise construction and imply that the developer was somehow trying to squeeze buyers for too much profit. But this is just not true. The costs per sq. ft. of the Griswold project are in line with, or even lower than that of existing downtown condos or those being built in cities like Minneapolis, Atlanta, Denver, Cleveland and Austin. The emerging downtown residential markets in these cities resemble the Detroit market in many ways. The overall poor real estate market in SE Michigan brought down this project, not some kind of greed or blunder by the developer.



Truer words were never posted here.

quote:

Was it a partner in the deal, sharing not only the risks, but the upside? I doubt that very much.



Yes. The DDA was doing the job it was chartered to do and that is to bring capital and resources to transformative projects that cannot get conventional financing.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of many here of the role a DDA plays. They are designed to use capital for risky or public infrastructure projects to jump start a very localized real estate market.

You may disagree with that concept from some free market philosophy and if so articulate your arguments. But to excortiate the DDA staff and directors for taking on risky projects when that is what they are chartered and directed to do is a little...well...sour grapes. Any DDA's function is to take steps to reverse severe real estate devaluation. You can't do that by playing by the same rules as conventional developers as they are not investing in the DDA area. DDAs must take on transformative projects that are loss leaders, are risky or are ignored by the traditional development market. To call people idiots for doing their job shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the DDA.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bokw0455qhw1d5zl0gtvdwme))/ mileg.aspx?page=GetMCLDocument &objectname=mcl-Act-197-of-197 5&version=txt
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2477
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, maybe the failure of the Griswold condos is fate's way of getting back at folks for bailing out on the original Lafayette Building deal. Remember that the Lafayette was going to have condos and its residents were going to use the Griswold parking structure along with the residents and guests of the Book Cadillac. Once the Griswold condos were announced, I knew that that announcement would end any chance of the Lafayette having condos. Oh well, that's what shortsightedness can do to people.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In point of fact, Visteon IS still leasing out half of Kennedy Square. Their sublease supported the attraction of 4 other suburban or partially suburban companies to the building (which is now fully occupied). That project is an example of the DDA making a calculated, and ultimately correct, decision to support the market in the face of nay-sayers. Their support of the Griswold is another.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1275
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scruffy, my point was if Visteon didn't happen, The Griswold isn't happening unless a major corporation bigger than Quicken moved down there or if we had more attractions.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1624
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's see who else Dan Gilbert brings with him downtown as part of the Quicken move.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 27
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I appreciate the clarification, but I'm not sure I agree. There is strong demand for the Griswold and projects like it, even in our dampened real estate market. The Griswold's pre-sales, while lower than the DDA or the developer wanted to see right at this moment, still represented nearly a quarter of the project's total requirements without a single piece of pre-cast yet on site. Their buyers in process represented over half the project. The only real problem with that project right now is one of timing. The deck itself needs to be completed by mid-year for the Book's needs, but ideally the Griswold would move a bit more slowly to allow for further absorbtion in '08. Unfortunately, given the logistics of the site, you either build it now when the deck is going up, or later (as in a year from now) after the deck is operational. The DDA wasn't prepared to proceed right at this moment. They made a prudent decision from their perspective, but not a permanent one.

The article in yesterday's News did this entire matter a great injustice.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6923
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the DDA propose some luxury apartment living. Than they don't have to waste some investment dollars.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3864
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Well, maybe the failure of the Griswold condos is fate's way of getting back at folks for bailing out on the original Lafayette Building deal. Remember that the Lafayette was going to have condos and its residents were going to use the Griswold parking structure along with the residents and guests of the Book Cadillac. Once the Griswold condos were announced, I knew that that announcement would end any chance of the Lafayette having condos. Oh well, that's what shortsightedness can do to people.



Two separate and unrelated events.

The deal for the Lafayette was caving well before the Griswold was a gleam in the Roxbury Group's eye. The initial proposal by Peebles Atlantic Development for the Lafayette was predicated on internal parking at the Lafayette. The BC deck had absolutely nothing to do with the Lafayette.

Peebles came in and sold sunshine and butterflies and then when they were not given the rights to build tower in the sky developments along the East Riverfront (they wanted to duplicate a gated community like Riverfront Towers with huge parking decks facing the river and the streets) they threw a fit and walked away from everything including the Lafayette.

So why would fate get back at the City because a developer from Florida screwed over the City?
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2479
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker, your facts may be true, but there was information and discussion on this forum about the Lafayette and Book Cadillac sharing the new parking structure. I know I did not imagine this. However, I will check the archives.

Also, the information that you gave about Peebles wanting to build on the riverfront was never discussed here before. Thanks for divulging that information. It explains why the Lafayette Building renovation fell through.

(Message edited by royce on January 02, 2008)
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3865
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce:
90% of what is posted here is pure speculation based on nothing that resembles fact.

Once Peebles heard about the new deck, they wanted the DDA to throw in free parking for them at the new deck. They did not want to pay for the extra spaces that would be required to be built for them. They expected the DDA to cover the costs of two additional floors for them. When the DDA balked at that, seeing as they were already getting a sweetheart deal, they used that as one of several reasons to walk away from the deal, even though they had originally proposed parking in the Lafayette itself and promised is was workable.

They also wanted the EDC to build a 1,000 space garage on the riverfront to hold their 24 story towers. That was a deal killer as well from the EDC perspective, in addition to their proposed plan being the exact thing the district guidelines were meant to prevent...
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6033
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

90% of what is posted here is pure speculation based on nothing that resembles fact.



That's probably more like 95%. After all this is a forum about ideas and dreams that individuals (from all over the country) have for the future of Detroit and environs. If it were only about actual facts, it would be a lonely forum indeed, with only 2 or 3 threads.

Granted some dreams and ideas are more half-baked than others... :-)
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1291
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah Gistok. If we had just pure facts, the site would have to be named DetroitNO or DetroitWHATEVER.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3866
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem is, people here read that speculative crap and think it is real....
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 3517
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All that said, it is too bad the Griswold has gone down. All the other stuff aside, really it has to be more an issue of people not being able to sell their existing homes at a price they can deal with, if at all. I would imagine that most buyers at the Griswold would be people who currently live in the area.
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Bits
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Username: Bits

Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can the Griswald parking structure be reinforced later for the addition of the housing above? The news article was not clear on this.

If not, why would the DDA pay $750k to the developers, making the housing impossible to add in the future rather then pay the $750k to reinforce the garage for the future housing on top?
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The deck is already reinforced.
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 835
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yo, if any of ya want to get a good deal on scrap steel let me know. the price is right.
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Ramcharger
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Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 513
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Company agrees to buy back steel at 50% cost
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 962
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A 50% loss in less than a year, who is the purchasing agent, they should be fired.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check out the site tomorrow. The Griswold rises after all (albeit just 2 stories of the parking deck).
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 640
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Got some pics of the garage:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com /3201/2289303370_1308203ec3_o. jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com /3079/2289303422_563c3c8e61_o. jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com /3163/2288514549_737578d651_o. jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com /3173/2289303488_0a303242fa_o. jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com /2106/2289320820_9733f236b1_o. jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com /2412/2289320980_22042c5df2_o. jpg
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Hans57
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Username: Hans57

Post Number: 274
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, that parking garage sure will be impressive.

-Sarcasm intended

(Message edited by hans57 on February 24, 2008)
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 582
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My bank is across the street and they have been motoring on that sucker lately - it looks great and will be a great addition.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Think what it will look like with another 6 story of condos on top. Hopefully it happens.....
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1680
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah Rbdetsport. Wishful Thinking!
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 583
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad it's happening, period. Condos were icing on the cake... frankly, it picks up the look of that entire corner and really finishes out a lot of sight lines.

I'm going to have to go to Lafayette for lunch and watch some construction... it is a very exciting time.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps not condos after all, but word has it an alternative use is in the works
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 4053
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It will look good and frankly a 1920's hotel does need parking to do business now
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 467
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scruffy, a source? Any more info? A time period?
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 5:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hearing in real estate circles that the developer is looking at mixed-use, possibly including office. Goal would be to cut a deal in time for construction to proceed immediately following completion of the deck this summer.
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Wschnitt
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Username: Wschnitt

Post Number: 63
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why would they sell back the steel then?
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 1347
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only reason I can surmise is because their stupid.
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Sandyrabbit
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Username: Sandyrabbit

Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 5:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

who pays your rent?
so are we talkin griswold griswold? hmmm...strange but i would usually complain about something being torn down, but in this instance, i am kind of in agreement, nothing but bad energy here in my lifetime folks.
addictions, beatings, deaths of friends.
make it a lot. and i hate lots. and i still won't park there.
omg its horrible.
never been more horrified terrified anyfied.
i still up for everything.
and would love to for this as well, but in all my years have not come up with one excuse to not make this place better.
good luck, hope you do one hell of a smudgin..
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Spacemonkey
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Username: Spacemonkey

Post Number: 299
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 6:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie Olde's son hung himself in the elevator shaft of that building when OLDE Discount was located there.
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Supergay
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Username: Supergay

Post Number: 130
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The only reason I can surmise is because their stupid.



Classic.
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 353
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandyrabbit,
Talking about The Griswold Capital park, The proposed and planed then scrapped condos that were to be on top of the BC parking deck.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cancelling the steel order at a significant discount before any of it had actually been fabricated appeared to make more sense than having the entire order milled, fabricated then stored while the developer and the DDA figured out how and when to re-launch the project. If the word of a commercial use turns out to be accurate, that will have been a good decision (since the prior steel order was sized for a very different project).
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Gencinjay
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Username: Gencinjay

Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll have to look a bit closer at the garage. I didn't see much evidence of reinforcement for later development. Looked like a standard precast garage from the quick looks I took.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reinforcement was designed into the size, number and locations of the footings, precast columns and shear walls that run East, West and up the middle. There would be no other visible evidence.
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 365
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 6:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)








There is some of the progress under the Thread

"My promotional Video for Detroit "
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Gencinjay
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Username: Gencinjay

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not knowing anything about architecture, I thought they'd need steel columns instead of reinforced concrete for something that size.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4021
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^I've seen reinforced concrete columns in buildings as tall as 23 stories. It all depends on the column dimensions, unbraced length, reinforcing, and 28-day compressive strength of the concrete.

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