  Sg9018 Member Username: Sg9018 Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Facing tough competition, poor economy, downtowns get help luring more shoppers" Metro Detroit suburbs are trying to develop a marketing plan to bring in more shoppers to suburban downtowns. The suburbs are trying to market themselves. More in the Free Press, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20071226/NEW S05/712260346 | ||
Sg9018 Member Username: Sg9018 Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2006 |
bump | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 743 Registered: 08-2006 |
In New Baltimore in recent years they have done a lot of sprucing up of the downtown. With the typical brick pavers, street lights, new sidewalks, creation of a Historic District, park improvements, new 200+ beach under construction and more to attract people downtown. Downtown New Baltimore is also a must drive through for travelers on M29. All of this work and still after years there is little or no progress in the business situation downtown. The city has done a lot to attract people, and the residents have long wanted a better downtown and more stores. Well now the city has a nice downtown minus the businesses. What I see though at 23& Gratiot and even now at 26 Mile and I-94 and other major local crossings are large bland big box developments which are thriving. For whatever reason these retail locations still dominate and leave small downtowns in the dust. I can see the reasons why they are successful. My only question is if residents want the downtown character in the city of New Baltimore why do they not use it more? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1207 Registered: 09-2007 |
"My only question is if residents want the downtown character in the city of New Baltimore why do they not use it more?" Fareastsider, you answered your own question... "Well now the city has a nice downtown minus the businesses. What I see though at 23& Gratiot and even now at 26 Mile and I-94 and other major local crossings are large bland big box developments which are thriving. For whatever reason these retail locations still dominate and leave small downtowns in the dust." It would be me asking the same question about Downtown Detroit, but it's going off-topic in this thread. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1208 Registered: 09-2007 |
Apparently, Bog Box Stores with cheap prices and ample free parking in the middle of nowhere is what Americans want. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3156 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Apparently, Bog Box Stores with cheap prices and ample free parking in the middle of nowhere is what Americans want." And you hate that you can't force them want what you want... | ||
Sg9018 Member Username: Sg9018 Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2006 |
Detroitrise I do not think talking about Downtown Detroit in this topic will go off-topic. Both suburban downtowns and Downtown Detroit having similar problems. That is luring more shoppers and retail. I thought this quote from the article was interesting, "Coming from New York, Birmingham was the closest you get to a SoHo other than downtown Detroit." | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1210 Registered: 09-2007 |
"And you hate that you can't force them want what you want..." First, learn to formulate your thoughts properly, type them out correctly, then I will be glad to respond to your comical statements. | ||
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2007 |
In New Baltimore in recent years they have done a lot of sprucing up of the downtown. With the typical brick pavers, street lights, new sidewalks, creation of a Historic District, park improvements, new 200+ beach under construction and more to attract people downtown. Downtown New Baltimore is also a must drive through for travelers on M29. All of this work and still after years there is little or no progress in the business situation downtown. The city has done a lot to attract people, and the residents have long wanted a better downtown and more stores. Well now the city has a nice downtown minus the businesses. What I see though at 23& Gratiot and even now at 26 Mile and I-94 and other major local crossings are large bland big box developments which are thriving. For whatever reason these retail locations still dominate and leave small downtowns in the dust. I can see the reasons why they are successful. My only question is if residents want the downtown character in the city of New Baltimore why do they not use it more? Personally Sg, I thought that when they tore down that old bar at the corner of 23 Mile (or Green Street) and Washington to a Wal-Greens really took away from the character of the downtown. Downtown New Baltimore is not that big at all. There is a little hardware store, pharmacy, etc. There has to be a night life. Downtown New Baltimore does not have this. Build the bars and the people will come. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3157 Registered: 06-2006 |
"First, learn to formulate your thoughts properly, type them out correctly, then I will be glad to respond to your comical statements." Yeah, I can certainly understand why you'd rather focus on my omission of the word "to" than own up to your fascist views on urbanism... The problem is, if the rest of us acted like little grammar Nazis, then nobody would respond to messages like your post #1208 where you erroneously used "is" instead of "are". I would have given you crap about it, but I was pretty sure you wouldn't understand the distinction anyway. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1214 Registered: 09-2007 |
And you go around trying to target and generalize people around the board through a computer screen. Your name and attitude is a huge oxymoron from what I'm seeing on this site. You're not really worth the time and patience. You continue to put words in my mouth an insult me and others with pure BS instead of actually discussing the thread topics with anyone. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1215 Registered: 09-2007 |
Tell ya what. I will be willing to discuss my "fascist views on urbanism" (as you so call it) IF you discuss why you choose to go around these board insulting and generalizing every and anyone to release whatever anger you get what something's not going your way? Until then, get a life. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 474 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sadly, it's true. And you can't force them, and the rise of the big box is an international phenomenon. See this link from New Zealand below, which shows how those downtowns are veritably incinerated by big box retailers - and most of all, that people do not care about customer service and aren't willing to pay a bit more for that personal service. http://www.tv3.co.nz/Video/Big boxretailersversusbotiqueshops /tabid/367/articleID/1815/cat/ 100/Default.aspx People today want to shop where they want, how they want, and at the lowest price. Big box gives that to them. We've now created a generation plus of people with no connection to a downtown retail experience. The more and more I travel and expand my experiences past what I knew, the more I realize that the reason why suburban sprawl works is because people want it. There are us, and a vocal minority, who are pro-downtowns - but most people like their suburban layout, despite the damage it does to the environment, the stress it puts on infrastructure, as well as the larger indirect costs which they get out of by moving to some township even farther away with a lesser tax burden. All of those issues are not in front of them and in their mind don't affect their daily life. Until it affects someone directly (preferably in the pocket book), the vast majority of people do not take action. Why should they, in their minds. I had a great conversation with a friend about how some clients of ours spend hundreds on gas a month and don't even think about it as a problem or something to deal with. We figured with his commute alone it'd be $350-$400 a month he spend on gas - and he doesn't care. It doesn't hit him hard enough yet. See, the only way I think anyone can make anyone see their point is to relate it directly to them so that they get a benefit. People, in general, care about themselves and what it does for them. They couldn't care less about you. Playing devil's advocate here (and I emphasize devil's advocate), what benefit does it give someone directly to support downtowns? Why should I spend money in Detroit, or any downtown when I get what I need 10%-15%-25% (I try to buy local so I know the prices) cheaper at Costco, Staples, or Best Buy? Why should I support a B2B service that I need to drive 8-10 miles to through bad neighborhoods (look at the news, after all) and park my car in a garage and pay to park when my current vendor I can pull up into their parking lot right next to the building? Why, if I'm a retail investor, should I open a store in the city when the sad reality is that I saw more of my neighbors and casual friends when I lived in the city at the Target on 14 mile road than in any business in the city proper or at any place throughout my week, even my common hallway/lobby of a building of 300+ people? Why should a retailer open another store in the city when they get all of their business anyway somewhere that has a half or less of the insurance cost and much lower loss/theft rate? In closing, if there is anything I've learned, it's that people don't buy on facts, they buy on emotion and their specific set of motivators. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3158 Registered: 06-2006 |
"And you go around trying to target and generalize people around the board through a computer screen." Hmmm...the person who posted the first response in my thread about the Livonia man just to take a swipe at me (before the mod deleted your useless comments, that is) says that I go around trying to target people. "Your name and attitude is a huge oxymoron from what I'm seeing on this site." Says a person who mistakes my name as having something to do with Jesus Christ. "You're not really worth the time and patience." And yet you posted the first response in my thread just to take a swipe at me. Interesting. "You continue to put words in my mouth an insult me and others with pure BS instead of actually discussing the thread topics with anyone." Last I checked, you were the one avoiding the topic of discussion. I'm going to lunch now. Have fun spending yours responding to my post. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1217 Registered: 09-2007 |
Go ahead The(filll in blank), stuff your face and avoid answering my post. It just shows me even more what type of person you really are, and that's a sick one polluting the gene pool. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 506 Registered: 08-2006 |
Thejesus vs. Detroitrise, tonight at Cobo. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 270 Registered: 10-2005 |
What is the point of this thread? | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 507 Registered: 08-2006 |
Don't you see Higgs, it was set up specifically for Thejesus and Detroitrise to fight. Place your bets, people! | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 626 Registered: 11-2006 |
I suspect one of the reasons Royal Oak and Ferndale have had success with their respective downtowns is that there is a degree of tolerance and acceptance, a come as you are, may look, doesnt matter what color youre mate is etc. Cant imagine that being the case in too many other places around the Detroit metropolitan area. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1552 Registered: 02-2006 |
No, you can't force people to like what you like. But this does force people who don't share that prevailing mindset to leave. And leave, they do...in droves. | ||
Mpow Member Username: Mpow Post Number: 284 Registered: 11-2003 |
too many Targets on this thread. | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 154 Registered: 08-2007 |
i,d love to do more of my shopping in downtown Wayne where i live, yet there is really no place that has the stuff i need or want in downtown wayne, with a few exceptions, to make me shop in the downtown of my hometown. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1224 Registered: 09-2007 |
"too many Targets on this thread." mpow, was that a pun? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1466 Registered: 11-2004 |
New Baltimore's "downtown" has a lot of things working against it. Chief among those is it's a small town downtown, not a city's downtown like Royal Oak or Ann Arbor. Southeast Michigan's thriving downtowns are in the middle of significant urban population centers. I have not been to New Baltimore, but judging by its location and what I can see on Google maps it seems like a much more small town place. If I am wrong I apologize, but it doesn't seem that way on the surface. It seems NB's downtown is a small collection of historic storefronts scattered on a few blocks surrounded by a small town neighborhood. Not exactly an urban center on the scale of A2 or RO, so a comparison to them is not fair. But that doesn't mean it can't learn something from them. Having that sort of density is vital to creating a vibrant downtown. So much so that the denser it is the more vibrant it will be. That's a big reason why RO, Ferndale, Wyandotte and A2 are making such a push to build more homes in their downtowns. One of the reasons downtown A2 works so well is that UofM's campus is right next door, which supplies the area with plenty (read thousands) of pedestrians to keep the foot traffic up around the stores. It appears that NB lacks this. NB's location is also playing against it. It's not at a major crossroads, meaning fewer people pass through. A2 is at the intersection of I-94, U.S. 23 and M-14. RO is near the intersection of I-75 and I-696. Also, the people who make downtowns successful, the people who own the businesses and patronize them, usually flock to urban centers. A vast majority of the time these people will choose denser areas with more life crammed into them over sleep small towns. These people also tend to be more liberal and open minded. That makes traditionally liberal places like Ferndale, RO and A2 more attractive that the stereotypically conservative small towns, which I'm guessing NB is. Also, these places usually have a few popular anchors in their downtowns. They can range from the downtown Borders in A2 to the Main Art Theater in RO or the WAB in Ferndale. NB might have something like this, but I have never heard of it. Now all of this doesn't mean that all is lost for downtown NB. I'm sure it has some historic character (essential) and an enviable position on Lake St. Claire. These are great attributes local leaders should capitalize on. Improving downtown's infrastructure, both functionally and aesthetically, will go a long ways, too. But you can't expect people to flock just because there are some new brick pavers and historic lighting. Local leaders should be recruiting unique businesses to open up in the district that will give it character, make the area friendlier to pedestrians and bicyclists than cars and encourage more homes to be built in the downtown. Those things will really make some noticeable differences. It won't turn downtown NB into downtown RO, but it will go a long way to making downtown NB a more vibrant and attractive place. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2006 |
Digitalvision - good post. It's too bad it got the air sucked out of it by that stupid pissing match. | ||
Alan55 Member Username: Alan55 Post Number: 983 Registered: 09-2005 |
Actually, whether a historic downtown area is thriving or not is mostly a factor of demographics and disposable income. Downtowns such as Birmingham and Rochester are doing well, while other, more working class downtowns are struggling. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 633 Registered: 11-2006 |
Ferndale and Royal Oak are both located near 696 and I-75, which probably helps because of the accessibility factor. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hopefully to add to the conversation, there is another factor that a lot of people don't think about but is a key to Royal Oak and Birmingham's success. Cheap parking. Stating "devils advocate" a lot seemed to work last time, so I'm going to preface my comments again: I personally believe mass transit would be viable, is important for us a region, and I would be willing to pay additional levies for it. However, mass transit has nothing to do with the success of downtowns in this region, and won't for at least a decade or more. And you can't build businesses on "if's and eventuallys". I have plenty of friends whose businesses faltered because they bet on eventualities, not realities. However, Parking has a huge role, as it is a car culture and that is not changing, even if we do install mass transit as I hope and pray we do. Here's the deal. I can, if I so choose, get 3 months of parking for $90 in Royal Oak in any one of decks or lots. Around the same price for Birmingham, too. If I am an employer, that's not bad. $30 a month isn't onerous. Now, compare to Detroit. If you want a garage that is reasonably close to the Financial District or other areas, you're paying at least $180 a month last I checked a couple months ago. Also, those out there should realize that a walk of a block or more in unacceptable to clients, customers, and others. I've done the research, and except for us urbanists, people just don't walk more than a block or two. It's not the way people are today. If you're a prospective shopper, unless you know what you're doing like most of us do (put yourself in newbies' shoes) and go to Compuware and get it validated, it is extremely confusing and relatively expensive to park downtown. You're looking at $7-$25 bucks. And the deal is, you're going to give up and park at the lot/garage closest destination. Add that to the fact that prices are higher, and you simply don't have a retail climate beyond your office workers and residents. Not enough to bring big retail, especially combined with the higher insurance and loss rates. This is where Detroit should steal pages from other's playbooks if it's serious about a retail and residential revolution. And it won't cost them that much money to do - way less in the long run than handing out incentives. Detroit is in a unique position to be the best destination, and here's how. 1) Free first three hours parking. Everywhere. Additional parking goes to $3-$5 a day. Coordinate with the businesses and distribute a stamp or something. Who cares if it's violated occasionally. Parking is infrastructure and vitally required to attract this regions' shoppers. All of Detroit's competition offers free and cheap parking, and it IS a complete dealbreaker. Other places do a fine job of government-owned parking, and have eliminated the shady lots by simply buying them or forcing them to sell by aking their offerings so cheap that they can't make any money. 2) Provide visible security. Cops on horses, cops on every other corner walking the beat in the CBD. Raise donation funds to pay for said or offset the cost, and send the honorable congresswoman Kilpatrick with a mission to bring us some bacon for it and the neighborhoods. The democrats are in control, let's use that. 3) Sidewalk sales, coordinated promotions - it's a shame that a teeny place like Birmingham and Royal Oak can do more retail planning than a billion-dollar budget city. Open an office of retail promotion, and we business owners need to start a DETROIT city chamber of commerce to promote our own interests in a unified voice, and also officially show that downtown Detroit is open for business. Again - some of you may give me logical arguments, etc. etc. But sales isn't logical - it's emotional. A shopper is not going to work hard to shop somewhere - they will go to the easiest place. Make it easy, and they will come. So will the residential and businesses - if you just make it as simple as it is every where else in this entire region. |
