  Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3120 Registered: 06-2006 |
Anyone know the particulars of this, i.e. how the test discriminated? The article doesn't say very much http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20071221/UPDAT E/712210434/1361 | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1948 Registered: 12-2005 |
Ironic, since Ford (old man Henry) hired blacks at par pay when n one else would hire them. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2414 Registered: 04-2006 |
To union bust... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3128 Registered: 06-2006 |
bump | ||
Missmich Member Username: Missmich Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2007 |
IS this just more whining by blacks cause they coundnt pass the test? Its the tests fault? The companies fault? How about its the blacks themselves fault for not doing better in school and understanding the test? | ||
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres Post Number: 404 Registered: 02-2007 |
What a completely stupid and par for the course statement by the resident racist. Did you even read the article? You are, as always, a complete moron. It was proven that Ford intentionally discriminated against black folks and other minorities in this case, and as usual, your lilly white ass can't comprehend anything. By the way, more whining on your part will not change a thing. This was a legal settlement. You really do white people an injustice with your stupid, redneck point of view. Just pour yourself a big cup of STFU and sit down..... | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1314 Registered: 11-2003 |
Where does it state that Ford intentionally discriminated against black folks? The basis of the complaint is that the test did not reflect a good measure as 100% of the black applicants failed the test. I dont see where the EEOC stated that Ford did it intentionally, and in fact the EEOC originally approved the test. Testing and survey bias is a difficult thing to overcome, especially when written by people from a certain perspective... however, the results speak for themselves.... the test must have had bias, whether cultural or otherwise. However, don't mistake any of my statements with any alignment with the stupid comments from Missmich. | ||
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres Post Number: 408 Registered: 02-2007 |
E_D- Intentionally was a bad word, and you are correct to call me out on that. I cannot, however, understand how the 100% failure rate was anything but contrived and somewhat intentional since it was so effective in it's 100% elimination. I would never associate what you said with Missmichracist. She has more than explained herself whereas you were loc=gically questioning what I said in my post. Hope this helps explain my point better. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1318 Registered: 11-2003 |
Plymouth, Its indeed perplexing... but could be as simple as cultural dynamics (wording, scenarios, whatever). However, I've looked up and down the web for information on exactly what the bias was and couldnt find a thing. Checked the EEOC website, etc... and the best I can come up with is the failure rate but nothing concrete on the bias. If someone can find something substantive, that would be interesting to read. | ||
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2007 |
hey missmich. this isn't the only lawsuit Ford has had levied against it on the basis of group discrimination. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n ews/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=235 78 go ahead. please respond in kind and verify for us your opinion that all older white men are undereducated and underachievers. | ||
Cincinnati_kid Member Username: Cincinnati_kid Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2006 |
That B--ch, MissMich needs to be banned from this board. She obviously must be in a time warp. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1322 Registered: 11-2003 |
Without shoveling snow, we wouldn't realize how great hot chocolate is. | ||
Missmich Member Username: Missmich Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2007 |
funny how you never answer any of my questions, just spew names and hate at me.....lol....and from all of you who claim to be above such things. You all make me laugh, you all are no better than than people you put down | ||
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres Post Number: 419 Registered: 02-2007 |
She's backkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk kkk! Funny how you can't read. Your questions are invalid to the conversation, and you are being ignored! Just go away, you irrelevant racist. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3139 Registered: 06-2006 |
"I cannot, however, understand how the 100% failure rate was anything but contrived and somewhat intentional since it was so effective in it's 100% elimination. " Maybe, but how does one go about that? How do you come up with a test that you know whites will pass and blacks will fail? The article doesn't say, and I often hear people talk about how tests are "culturally biased", but I've never know what exactly they mean by that... I'd be curious to see an example of a test question that is easier for a white person to answer... I'm not doubting that they exist or anything, but I honestly can't think of what one might look like... | ||
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres Post Number: 421 Registered: 02-2007 |
Tj- I do agree that it is tough to quantify, but E_d does offer some suggestions(posts #1314 & 1318) as to how it may have occurred. I haven't seen the test so I don't feel qualified to make more than the assertion that you quoted above. I just found it ironic that the failure rate among the minorities was so high, and I share your curiosity. You make good points. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1204 Registered: 08-2007 |
Tests can be culturally biased. I've told this one before. On an IQ test over 40 years ago, I was asked to ID whether a pictured object was a left or right object. I had no idea what it was. After the test, I drew it and asked a classmate if she knew what it was. Yes, she did. A man's suit lapel. Well, those weren't really big in my world at the time. Very few men teachers, no suits in my family, and so on. That might not intentionally eliminate any particular group, but maybe a lower economic group. It was a case of a question that a man might think was perfectly fine, and not biased, but a kid from my background seriously would have a problem. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2425 Registered: 04-2006 |
^That was a great example Gazhekwe. I remember similar issues to that when I was in college. In the lower level math weeder courses at U-M, the exam questions are posed in story problem form. A lot of these questions tend to have a cultural bias to them that forces the exam taker to interpret things outside the realm of the course material. For instance, I specifically remember one particular question about skiing in one of my calculus courses. Most non-whites aren't skiers. Most poor people aren't skiers. Thus, many of the exam takers who fell into one (or both) of those groups are automatically at a disadvantage for the reasons you stated in your example. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 675 Registered: 06-2005 |
This is a case of Ford settling just to avoid the negative press. The article also mentions that 55 of the black test takers will be placed in the apprentice program. Have they qualified for the program using a "racially neutral" test? Or are they now getting a free pass due to their skin color? The lawyers get their payday and the 700 unqualified test takers get their check in the mail (And some of them training they probably don't deserve). As consumers we get screwed over by having to pay more for Ford vehicles and the wonderful possibly of inferior workmanship by less qualified workers. Sounds like a great deal. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1206 Registered: 08-2007 |
Adverse impact is a valid argument. If a disproportionate number of a specific minority group flunk a facially neutral test, that is adverse impact. It is a standard in Civil Rights law courtesy of the landmark Griggs vs Duke Power decision 401 U.S. 424 (1971). In that case, Duke Power imposed a standard that promotion from the Laborer position required a high school diploma. In that community, very few black students graduated before starting work, thus most black employees and applicants were excluded from all jobs except the lowest paying ones in the Labor area. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1325 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gaz, good info. My senior thesis was work on a survey for behavioral statistics and cognitive psych, so its very interesting to me to find out what the bias was. However, as you've implied, they may not be able to pinpoint the bias as much as simply knowing it exists per the results. Since the EEOC themselves initially approved it, it must be something not obvious. It would be neat if we could get a copy and dissect it. (Message edited by east_detroit on December 23, 2007) | ||
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres Post Number: 424 Registered: 02-2007 |
Go get'em E_d! Let us know what you find. One of the things that I find interesting is how Ford settled to avoid negative press, thereby assuring that no one would know the particulars as one of the agreements, usually, in these settlements is that the basis and arguments of the case are sealed, forever to be unknown. ""However, Ford favors the settlement because it is in the company's and the public's best interest to work toward developing the best possible test."" Perfect example of Fordspeak here. As always Gaz, you provide valuable and relevant input. Thanks again for the education. | ||
Tk65 Member Username: Tk65 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 |
Ive taken that test twice. Its a joke, common sense questions like tieing you shoes, water flow, gears, etc. Its a test to see how much mechanical knowledge you have. There is NOTHING racist or discriminatory about it. Ford now has people on their trades list that didnt pass their test or have the skills required to be considered for the work. Would you like to have a doctor that didnt pass his boards, filed a lawsuit and then got his way paid thru medical school? Hell no. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1208 Registered: 08-2007 |
Test validation is required by the Griggs doctrine. The test must be relevant to the task and must be free of bias. You are making an assumption that the people failed on things required for the job when there has been no investigation on what they failed on, or whether the questions and answers demonstrate skills that could be learned on the job. This kind of reaction without factual basis has harmed job integration since time began. Somehow, the minorities are NEVER qualified. How can that be possible? I had a case once, where the company gave the woman a mechanical test for the job. She passed but barely. The job was given to an 18 year old man who did not have to take the test. Why not? He was a farm boy, according to the employer, and all those farm boys know how to fix mechanical things. (Message edited by gazhekwe on December 24, 2007) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11117 Registered: 10-2003 |
TK - What one person considers common sense may be commone sense based upon specific cultural learnings. Not saying this is the case sinceI haven't seen the test but what is common sense to one culture may not be to another. | ||
Tk65 Member Username: Tk65 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 |
math isnt common sense? reading a paragraph then answering questions based on that paragraph, when the answers are the words in the paragraph isnt common sense? I am sorry but if you cant answer questions like that you should not be working on million dollar machinery. But now Ford has to give these idiots the opportunity for the work. When they lose a hand in a machine they then can claim they werent trained properly, sue Ford, then get a medical retirement. Only good thing is Ford isnt hiring any skilled trades people or adding apprentices so these scammers will never get these jobs. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1209 Registered: 08-2007 |
That is a huge assumption you are making about what the test takers did not know or why they did not answer the questions correctly. Let you take a test about sewing patterns and see how well you do, having never sewn by pattern before. It is all in English, but of a particular lingo that will be completely unfamiliar. Now, could you sew by pattern, having failed the test without any introduction as to the lingo. Absolutely you could, with a little assistance over the meaning of the directions. | ||
Tk65 Member Username: Tk65 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 |
Did you take this test? It was plain english. No special terms, no inside lingo, nothing. This was a basic skills test. Here is an example. "Bill loaded the conveyor with parts, he then pressed the on button" "What button did bill press? What did he load? "Here is a ramp, what direction will water flow down it. A. Up B. down C. sideways, D. none of the above. Thats how bare bones the questions were. Everyone knew this was a skilled trades test. They gave prep classes for it. There was nothing on that test that was unfair. I guess I should sue MSU because they rejected me from their engineering dept. Even though i was never introduced to their lingo or given the chance to learn it. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1331 Registered: 11-2003 |
Why did you take it twice? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4665 Registered: 10-2004 |
Summary: (1) OP Thejesus bumps up the list after only 10 ˝ hours. (2) Missmich asked the right questions only... (3) to get slapped up by the ultra-sensitive Plymouthres, who in turn introduced a number of his falsehoods about the story, which as Thejesus stated, was very short on any background. (4) East_detroit rebuts plymouthres's opinions (or whatever it was he posited), but wants to stay clear of being affiliated with Missmich (although he seemingly doesn't disagree with her questions). (5) Kevgoblu introduces additional “proof” (from 6 ˝ years ago) about Ford's desiring to rate their staff before making job cuts (apparently). Nothing wrong with that, is there? Why not fire the least productive and retain the best when downsizing and stay competitive while getting rid of its deadwood? [Ford knew back then that it would have to downsize by some 50% or greater in order to survive. It already outsourced its cash accounting bookkeeping and other functions (previously done in Dearborn) to India around or prior to that time.] (6) Cincinnati_kid interjects “something,” but it's really nothing of any value... (7) Missmich asks why some are attacking her but not answering her apt questions posted earlier... (8) More ad hominem blather by Plymouthres... (9) Followed by some ad nauseum ping-ponging about cultural bias of tests... Many of such tests have questions about which way a gear might turn in a gear chain and other simple questions about applied science and mechanics. If such questions are culturally biased, then it implies that certain subclasses just don't take any simple math or science classes while in elementary and middle school. But because all such schools teach those subjects during the lower and middle grades in school, it implies that those in any subclass who routinely fail such relatively simple tests just do not routinely study (and, consequentially, do not learn much of anything during their schooling years). And as adults, they confirm it. | ||
Tk65 Member Username: Tk65 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2007 |
First time I placed in the top three out of the 100 people that took it. My seniority stopped me from getting on the list since its pass/fail, opportunity given to highest seniority first. I missed the place list by one year of service. Second time a year later I was placed. Its been 5 years since and no one from that list has been added. | ||
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres Post Number: 438 Registered: 02-2007 |
LY- You forgot the tenth point: Who cares what LY has to say? |
