  Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 1064 Registered: 06-2004 |
Is is just me or has the NYT spilled a lot of ink on Detroit over the past 2 years? http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12 /19/business/19detroit.html?re f=business | ||
Arab_guyumich Member Username: Arab_guyumich Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2007 |
I was struck by the anecdote about the homeless gamblers playing slots at the casinos. I'm pretty sure that the security guards kick them out before they get that far...at least they're pretty strict about that at Greektown. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4195 Registered: 02-2005 |
If only people in metro Detroit knew how important the city they are so critical of is to the rest of the country/world. That's what all of this NY Times coverage is about. Our story is fascinating: saddening/angering and hopeful at the same time. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2007 |
I'm thinking how many readers finish the article and think, "that's so sad what has happened there". Two weeks later they buy a new Honda without a second thought. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1432 Registered: 12-2003 |
When I see Micheline Maynard's byline on a story in the NYT, I turn the page. It's usually just pro-Toyota babble ... | ||
Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 1479 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry but buying a Honda does not mean you are anti Detroit. I had a Ford that was really a Mazda, it cost me a fortune when I had problems with it. When the time came to buy a new car I bought the highest rated car in its class, for the best price in its class, and it was a Honda. I thought twice, but it was an economic issue, and I made the choice based on the best value the market offered. I love Detroit, and I am committed to the city. When it comes to a sizable investment like a car, I do not just make the decision based on false loyalty, it is based on what I can afford, and what fill my needs. The auto industry has limited loyalty to the people of this region who broke their backs for the last 100 years working I the auto factories. The industry has problem taking our jobs to Mexico or Asia, so why should I feel guilty for using the same dam logical they do, its all economics. So I say beat the Japanese at their own game, make American cars the best on the road, for the best value, and then next time I have the money to buy a new car, rest assured it will be one designed or built ( or hopefully both) in Metro Detroit. | ||
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn Post Number: 587 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dan. Great post. I agree and bought a used Honda...I have posted before about the auto industry and loyalty...Who are we kidding...They are loyal to making money not us, a city, and/or country. When they produce quality for a reasonable price its game time | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1297 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sorry, but yes it does mean you are anti Detroit. If you don't like it, move to Tokyo. And try reading the latest reports. Ford Fusion beat the Camry and the Civic. Toyota engines are randomly clogging and failing. Toyota recalled more cars than they built in the last 2 years. Honda is no better. But the anti Detroit crowd will try to dispute that instead of helping to raise the flag and promoting it. Just watch the responses in this thread. "based on what I can afford".... you mean, you can afford the economic ramifications, too? | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 292 Registered: 02-2006 |
Dan - you considered the price, not the cost to yourself and to your community. It's not blind loyalty if you factor in the 'big picture' impact of your automotive purchase decision. When you live in Detroit, buying domestic can be compared to supporting the family-owned corner store vs. driving to Wal-Mart to save a few bucks. Even if the car is ultimately assembled in Mexico, a sizeable portion of the profits are still paying the engineers, accountants, executives in your neighborhood. The NYT article IS sad, and while it speaks a lot of truth, I can't help but dislike the "this is bad, but here's a good thing - that's no so good because..." pattern of the article. Don't we all wish we could be as cool as NYC? | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 239 Registered: 04-2007 |
And the new Taurus in he safest full sized car in the world. If Ford and GM weren't loyal to Detroit I doubt they would have kept their HQ here, just like Comerica. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2397 Registered: 04-2006 |
LOL @ the "Buy American" rhetoric. That city was dying before foreign cars were even an issue. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 791 Registered: 07-2007 |
I read the article and thought it actually painted a pretty accurate picture of the current situation. It's good to have an outside opinion not beholden to local advertisers or who will p-off readers. I wonder if Jenny G. was mad that they called her Ms. Granholm, after all she is married. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6896 Registered: 02-2004 |
Why New York Times is playing the " Bashing Detroit" game? Maybe the Detroit News needs to play the " Let's Bash New York City" game. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2398 Registered: 04-2006 |
I wonder if Jenny G. was mad that they called her Ms. Granholm, after all she is married. "Ms." is neutral. It can refer to a married or unmarried woman. | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 97 Registered: 07-2007 |
What exactly makes the article part of the "Bashing Detroit" game? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2399 Registered: 04-2006 |
New York has a lot of Detroit expats, btw. No surprise that Detroit issues get spotlight time from the NYT. Detroit is also one of the few cities in the country right now that isn't realizing it's full potential. A third point is that New York is a city that was once marred by it's "bad ass" reputation much like Detroit, but went through a remarkable rejuvenation much like Detroit hopes to do. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 2019 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: Amen. The city would still be well known for its urban prairies even if Toyota and Honda never existed. Which is not to say you shouldn't support your local industry (I'm looking to replace my Honda with a Ford right now), but it has little to do with the decline of the city and rise of the suburbs. | ||
Elviswithteeth Member Username: Elviswithteeth Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2007 |
Detroit Bashing? The article was straight forward and built around stats. Similar stories like this have shown up in the Detroit News and Free Press. Rehashing the "Buy American" idea is fruitless for outside Metro Detroit, Michigan and pockets of the country could care less. If Detroit's 2007 highlights is the opening of a new casino... there is something wrong with this picture. Detroit had plenty of wake up calls....but chose to roll over and hit the snooze button. "Its just the normal noises..." | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 404 Registered: 09-2006 |
All the rhetoric makes sense to a degree but it generally boils down to two main issues,, price and quality... For many years I have read numerous magazines evaluation on cars regarding both issues. We are at a point now where many ( not all) American (big three) cars are on par if not exceeding their "foreign" counterparts as well as being priced and financed at competitive prices. The old line of " I cant find a Big Three Car thats equal in quality and price line" was true to a degree before but doesnt hold water now if you look carefully at many models or maybe if your buying a 75,000. luxury car. You really need to do your homework and will find many affordable domestic cars with high quality. It really isnt "rhetoric " about not buying foreign,you cant blame a person for wanting the best value for their money but when we as a society still continue to prefer foreign when our quality is equal we will no doubt be shooting ourselves in the foot eventually. If you do not keep your fellow Americans working your whole economy drops,, big time,, yet many who are employed view that to be a problem of someone elses. Why do you think there are so many tariffs imposed by foreign countries on imported cars/products? They believe in protecting their own, American society does not anymore. Its all about whats best for me, for the moment. | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 864 Registered: 01-2004 |
Commitment to Detroit is buying the product that is so severely important to our economy here. You can rationalize about it all you want for the personal gains. It makes sense, buy what you want. But you destroy this city and region every time you buy a non-Ford, Chrysler or GM. So say "You're committed to Detroit." But next time say, "But when it came to buying a car, I did not support the city." | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2006 |
Mackinaw, I agree. Detroit is still very important to many places. Always will be that way. Also, there are so many transplants that it almost makes sense to keep people like us in the loop in some way. | ||
Informed Member Username: Informed Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think that this is as close to positive as the NY Times is going to get for a while. I'll take this over what they have been writing about us for the past 25 years. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2400 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: So everybody should go out and buy a Chevy? Should everybody also go buy a mortgage from Quicken? Should everybody choose Better Made over Frito Lays and drink Faygo instead of Pepsi? Would Detroit and Michigan be in better shape today if the local governments had made Detroit more attractive to foreign companies to set up their American operations? | ||
Waymooreland Member Username: Waymooreland Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2007 |
I noticed the use of the Lions' current season a couple of times in this article as a metaphor for the city as a whole. It still kind of fits if you take it a bit further: -The Lions, like the city, have not had real success (i.e. a championship or even a deep playoff run) since the 1950s. -The Lions left the city in the '70s and returned in the 2000s (parallel to the residents and businesses who fled to the suburbs and the current jump in incoming residents/businesses). -Like the city, the Lions have had so many problems over the years because their success is too directly tied to the auto industry (i.e. team owner Bill Ford, Sr.). -Any action that you think will finally be a catalyst for a major turnaround for the Lions (or the city) will inevitably fail, even if it sounds great at first. The list here goes on and on (bear in mind, some cynicism and facetiousness here): the RenCen; Barry Sanders; the People Mover; Matt Millen; new stadiums downtown; too many first-round drafted wide receivers to mention; the casinos; Marty Morningweg/Steve Mariucci/Rod Marinelli; the Super Bowl; Joey Harrington... Honestly, it looks like a lot of the well-worn anecdotes for the Lions apply just as well to the whole city. (sigh...) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 967 Registered: 12-2006 |
Waymoore, out of that list I would argue that the stadia and casinos have been real positives for downtown, and I was not a proponent of casinos when that idea was being bounced around. The people mover is only a tiny fragment of what was to have been, so is not a good comparative IMHO. Imagine you planned to insulate your house to save on heat, but then your wife and you argued about what form of insulation to use and how to apply it, so you compromised by only insulating a quarter of the house. That's the people mover. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5780 Registered: 11-2003 |
Professor Scott hits the nail on the spot again. 25% insulation isn't exactly the whole house, eh. jjaba. | ||
Waymooreland Member Username: Waymooreland Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2007 |
Hey Prof., Yeah, I didn't mean to sound like all of the things I mentioned weren't positives for downtown. I simply meant that they may have been overhyped. I agree that the stadia and casinos have had a positive impact, but so have Roy Williams and Jon Kitna for the Lions, and the Lions are still mediocre at best. Arguably, so is Detroit -- not according to me, of course, but a convincing argument can be (and has been) made. As for the People Mover, I actually think it's a great comparison because it reflects how the Lions' teams are usually "only a tiny fragment of what was to have been"! | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3419 Registered: 10-2003 |
"...it generally boils down to two main issues,, price and quality..." Nope. Fuel economy is right up there, too; and is arguably a more salient issue than quality these days. 20 mpg just doesn't cut it anymore. Hell, I consider 25 mpg mediocre. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5784 Registered: 11-2003 |
Two words they never said, "Urban Disinvestment." After 50-60 years of complete urban disinvestment, you get Detroit, 2008. Across the board, personal, corporate, retail, government. Now you pick your own reasons. 6,000 workers are at The Rouge today compared to 100,000 at one time. One factory alone as your numbers for the day. jjaba. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5935 Registered: 08-2004 |
On the Ms. vs Mrs. issue for Granholm... why is Ms. so odd? Mrs. Granholm would not be correct, since she never took her husbands last name... Mulhern. And her children are all Mulhern's. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1303 Registered: 11-2003 |
"That city was dying before foreign cars were even an issue." "That city" being Detroit? Do you not live here? Metro Detroit wasn't dying. Perhaps people were moving out to farmland and the CoD was suffering, but now you can find plenty of ex-farmland houses in foreclosure. Love it or hate it, Metro Detroit is the Motor City. Sorry that we havent diversified to the satisfaction of some, or other shouldve/couldve/wouldve scenarios. Fact remains, we are dependent on being the Motor City. 99%+ of people here not directly employed by Ford, GM or Chrysler but living in Metro Detroit are still dependent on the industry for their own jobs, whether you work at a Video Store in Novi or wherever. So, is it anti-Detroit to bash and not do some reading and promoting of the good news? Yes, it is. It is also stupid. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2401 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Yes that city being Detroit, and no I do not live there. Two things are glaringly apparent to anyone paying attention: 1) the growth/sprawl patterns of Metro Detroit aren't sustainable if that region is to survive, and | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 865 Registered: 01-2004 |
Iheartthed, Well if you buy those things you help the city. Plain and simple. I know you feel hog tied as a consumer, but thats the reality. This is really not a debatable issue and I'm shocked that so many people will make the arguments that the Auto industry is so convoluted that it doesn't mater. We have 3 HQs here, we have at least 18 major plants in the area as well. Buy a car assemble in the region is much better then one not, but there is a lot of residual gain from one assemble somewhere else with parts suppliers, overall company strength, and white color jobs at the HQs. But, yes buying a Grand Cherokee is much more supportive of the region then buying Better Made or Faygo. One is 30K and one a 1.30$. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3420 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Fact remains, we are dependent on being the Motor City. " That dependence has been sapping our area's life force for three or four decades. Time to diversify our economy, NOW. Continued blind allegiance to the US automobile industry will result in our extinction. There is no reason to take pride in being "Motor City" any more. We were "Tobacco City" and "Stove City" once, too. It's time to be something else; something new. Detroit needs to change and adapt, as it always has. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 968 Registered: 12-2006 |
Gistok, I think you mean the children are all Mulherns. I will give that couple the benefit of the doubt and assume they are all Mulhern's. BTW Fury13 is exactly right about the economy. Once China starts exporting on a grand scale, we're toast. Diversify or die. This ain't 1956. Prof. Scott | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 293 Registered: 02-2006 |
No, then the entire country is toast. You've got to appreciate the vast wealth that the automotive industry brought to Metro Detroit, and understand that its erosion isn't just a bad sign for us, it's a bad sign for the nation. We're just willing to throw it away as another thing that the US can't do as well as our Asian rivals. Eventually, what will be left? We'll sustain our economy by working at banks, hospitals and malls? | ||
Alan55 Member Username: Alan55 Post Number: 947 Registered: 09-2005 |
If someone wants to buy a Toyota or a Honda, go ahead. But please, please don't use that tired argument "when the domestic industry builds a vehicle equal to the imports then I will buy a Big 3 car again". And yes, it does help the local economy when you buy a car from the Big 3 - the local restaurants, gas stations, dry cleaners, golf courses, and retail stores all depend on steady pay checks. You may as well say, "Yes, I drink imported bottled water - when they make water locally as good as the imported stuff, then I will buy it." Trendy, trendy, trendy. | ||
Evelyn Member Username: Evelyn Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm with Fury13. It really doesn't matter if I own a Honda or a Ford, and carping on people who drive Camrys isn't going to help bring Detroit back. This city- heck, the whole state- needs to do something besides making cars. Basing an area's economy on one industry is a terrible idea, and until Detroiters take pride in something besides autos, this area's economy is never going to recover. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1155 Registered: 09-2007 |
"If Ford and GM weren't loyal to Detroit I doubt they would have kept their HQ here, just like Comerica." Since when did Comerica decide to stay in Detroit and not move to Dallas and since when has Ford been headquartered in Detroit? This is huge news to me! Long story short, I agree with Dan when thinking inside the box, but when stepping outside of it, I agree with Wazootyman. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1156 Registered: 09-2007 |
"But, yes buying a Grand Cherokee is much more supportive of the region then buying Better Made or Faygo. One is 30K and one a 1.30$." However, would you rather that $1.30 go to large comglomerates/monopolies such as CocaCola and Frito Lay or dedicated Detroit companies such as Better Made or Faygo. Remind you, Better Made is still family owned and operated. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 420 Registered: 06-2007 |
The original NYTimes article isn't bad; it's a relatively honest appraisal from an outside perspective. However, I personally find a lot of the negativity about Metro Detroit to be misplaced. People bash on the Big 3 for a variety of reasons; some of which are valid but really grossly uneducated simplifications of a very complex industry. We should take pride in the Big 3. The Metro Detroit area made the modern automobile, for good or ill, and the rest of the world is following. We still compete globally and when Toyota or Honda are talking about an industrial legacy, they still compare themselves to GM and Ford, not Vauxhall or Renault. The auto industry began as a bunch of start-up companies built on a wing and a prayer with investments from other people (the point of this is made later). Yes we need to diversify. But we're poor at practicing what we preach. What am I talking about? Where does your extra savings sit? Is it actually being used here in Michigan or is it managed by a New York based mutual fund? What are you doing with your money that you are not using? Diversification means we have to have start-up companies and entrepreneurs. We can't effectively "court" industries to move here. Other states and countries court our companies to move out of state because they can provide lower wages, less regulation, and Cash. We as a state are considerably wealthy but we blow our money. We don't use it to invest in our own companies or entrepreneurs. We don't use it to invest in education effectively. We complain about taxes and the ineffectiveness of government but we consistently argue about Republican versus Democrat without actually following some level of pragmatism. I'd challenge anyone to stop and think the next time you want to go buy a big screen TV for $1000 or $3000. If you and 100 other people did that, you would have $300,000 just sitting there to toss at the next company like E-Prize, Google, E-Bay, or whatever. You'd get your share of the business and you would create jobs that feed further businesses. Instead though, we have 100 people with a big screen TV. People need to just stop and think two seconds. Yes, I do buy Better Made and Faygo because at least I'm paying the salary for one of my neighbors rather than a guy in Atlanta or Texas. Invest in your own community. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 241 Registered: 03-2005 |
FYI: The other writer, Nick Bunkley, is a former Detroit News writer. |
