Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » Kilpatrick: Spending on Cobo Center might have to wait « Previous Next »
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 1028
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Should the Cobo expansion be delayed for investing elsewhere? He's does have point that Cobo isn't the best invesment the region could make, venture capital or even better light rail would benefit the area more.

http://crainsdetroit.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071207/REG/71207004/1016/-/-/kilpatrick-spending-on-cobo-center-might-have-to-wait


quote:

New state tax laws and a crisis in home mortgage lending may mean spending to improve Cobo Center should wait a while, Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick told attendees at the Oakland County Business Roundtable annual breakfast in Troy today.

Kilpatrick spoke at length about regional cooperation to revitalize the local economy.

But when a brief question-and-answer session at the breakfast meeting turned to Cobo, he mentioned that the state still can’t gauge the full economic impact of new tax laws enacted Dec. 1 and the home foreclosure crisis.

The mayor has said previously that Cobo wouldn’t be his first or best choice to spend a large sum of money investing in the region.

“If we were to get $600 million or $700 million to invest somewhere, I don’t think we need to be putting it into one building,” he said Friday. “We should probably be doing something that’s an investment across the region … into things like venture capital for (businesses).”



(Message edited by eric on December 08, 2007)
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Renfirst
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Username: Renfirst

Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think he makes a valid point.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes! We're finally starting to see some intelligence in this region.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3803
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who the hell is this guy, and what did he do with the mayor???
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 402
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 1:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danindc,

Remember the move Dave? The one where Kevin Kline plays a kind hearted guy who runs a temp agency who just so happens to look like the cold, not so good President of the United States? He makes a public appearance as the President while the real Prez is banging his secretary. Unfortunately the president dies of a heart attack in the middle of "doing the deed" so the temp guy now pretends to be the president and actually turns out to be a really good one.

I think something like that happened with the Mayor. He was banging a stripper at the Manoogian when his aorta burst and someone else is impersonating him.

That's just a guess.
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Gsgeorge
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Username: Gsgeorge

Post Number: 398
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I think he makes a valid point.


Not that I wouldn't like to see the money go into some improved form of mass transit or small business help, but we can't lose the auto show.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2442
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What the mayor said is contrary to what he has been saying about Cobo. Now, when there appears to be an agreement(between him and LBP) on how much they can spend on Cobo expansion, he's talking about using the money for something else? Yeah, right. Who is this guy and what happened to our mayor?

(Message edited by royce on December 09, 2007)
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Granmontrules
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Username: Granmontrules

Post Number: 268
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He has been doing a great job of late. I think the press is finally lightening up on him for one thing.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Not that I wouldn't like to see the money go into some improved form of mass transit or small business help, but we can't lose the auto show."

I'm not as much worried about the fate of the Auto Show. The organizers of it said they understand the whole situation and they'll just go with the flow for now (in other words, they'll be here).
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2652
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayor Kilpatrick's entire argument is pure nonsense, in my opinion.

First, this notion that we have to choose between a redeveloped Cobo and mass transit or anything else is a false choice. Cobo could be expanded through a hotel/car rental tax on the people who are using it. If Cobo isn't redeveloped, we won't have the same kind of hotel/car rental revenue to tax in the first place.

Second, we are currently spending hundreds of millions of dollars every year expanding our freeways and other roads to handle more and more capacity. If we reallocate those funds to mass transit, we get all of the benefits without having access any other pool of money.

Regarding the Mayor's reference to venture capital, I'm skeptical of any government entity's ability to pick and chose which companies will yield the best return on investment. The more money that is on the line, the stronger that skepticism becomes.

Exhibit A in my skepticism is Governor Granholm's 21st Century Jobs Fund. It has been in existence for more than 2 years now. Do we really want to duplicate it with a Detroit version?
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2104
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Regarding the Mayor's reference to venture capital, I'm skeptical of any government entity's ability to pick and chose which companies will yield the best return on investment. The more money that is on the line, the stronger that skepticism becomes."

How about simply making MI more business friendly? Instead of using the 600-700 million for Cobo, how about getting rid of some of the obscure taxes?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2333
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Second, we are currently spending hundreds of millions of dollars every year expanding our freeways and other roads to handle more and more capacity. If we reallocate those funds to mass transit, we get all of the benefits without having access any other pool of money.



Good luck convincing the state on that one!
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2653
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First, a Cobo expansion would cost $250 - $300 million; not $600 - $700 million.

Second, Michigan's business tax rates are already on par with national averages.

Third, and most important, building infrastructure is part of making an area business friendly. Cobo is a part of that infrastructure. All you have to do is take a look at Atlanta, Chicago or any of the other cities with major convention centers.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2654
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Convincing the state to reallocate dollars to mass transit will unquestionably be a challenge. Lansing is addicted to asphalt.

Like any addict, however, we will eventually either die or go into rehab.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 403
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheartthed,

The general public wouldn't go for a massive shift right now. MDOT's long term projections show massive deterioration to existing pavements because costs are increasing way beyond what current revenues can maintain.

Hard to convince the public to build a train when they are trying to avoid potholes.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2334
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Hard to convince the public to build a train when they are trying to avoid potholes.



But the suggestion was to use funds from road expansion projects to fund a transit system. I don't think anybody can really argue about road maintenance... but how much is that expansion of I-75 in Oakland County expected to cost again?
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2656
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The general public wouldn't go for a massive shift right now. MDOT's long term projections show massive deterioration to existing pavements because costs are increasing way beyond what current revenues can maintain.

Hard to convince the public to build a train when they are trying to avoid potholes.


That's like saying that a guy who is morbidly obese, has high-blood pressure and who just had his 3rd heart attack can't be convinced to go on a diet.

If the freeways weren't used as much, they wouldn't be showing as much wear and tear.

If we had mass-transit, we wouldn't be dodging potholes.

We also wouldn't be facing the budget crunch that we have now because freeways require more capital to operate that a mass transit system.

(Message edited by fnemecek on December 09, 2007)
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 404
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The capacity improvement budget? Do you know how little of MDOT's budget goes towards capacity improvement statewide? Since Gov Granholm took office, MDOT money used on roads has been distributed so that 95% goes to fixing already existing pavement and only 5% goes towards building new. It was called the "Fix it first" initiative. I think out of an $8+ billion Five Year program, less than $300 million is going towards expansion. Much of that is tied to the DRIC which is the state's program for replacing the Ambassador bridge and the total reconstruction of the Bluewater bridge border crossing in Port Huron.

How much of a transit system can you build for that much money over 5 years? Sure there are some matching funds, but a whole lot of other funding has to come on-line in order to accomplish this.

Not that I'm against it or anything. I'm all for mass transit, but a lot of other things have to take place before we start raiding the capacity improvement money. More sources of funding have to be found.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 405
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fnemecek,

studies have shown that the impact of cars on pavement wear is negligible. A VERY distant third behind frost/freeze action and commercial trucking. Mass transit will have ZERO impact on either the service life of a pavement, the rate of deterioration of pavement, or the amount of potholes on the road.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2108
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank God then I suppose that funding for mass transit (at least at the fed. level), comes out of a different pot from road funds. It is hard to say, "take money from roads and put it toward mass transit," or to say, "we can't fund mass transit because we don't even have enough money for roads."
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 406
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charlottepaul,

They come out of the same pot, the Highway Trust Fund, which coincidentally is scheduled to be in the red starting in 2009 when the current federal re-authorization, SAFETEA-LU runs out in 2009. Not knowing what the Federal government will do in terms of transportation funding will also impact what MDOT is willing to do at this time. MDOT is already in the 2008 fiscal year. They are less than a year away from having absolutely ZERO idea what the federal government will give Michigan in terms of transportation funding. They are no position to make funding promises for new endeavors like mass transit without knowing what the Feds are going to give them to maintain current operations.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2657
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

fnemecek,

studies have shown that the impact of cars on pavement wear is negligible.


Source?
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 407
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't think of which state or organization did the study. I work in the pavement industry and I know a co-worker stated who did it. I will have to follow up with him to see who did it.

However, one can see the differences between the impact of trucks and the impact of automobiles relatively easily. The key factor for road deterioration is weight. More specifically, weight per axle. It's that force put on small space of pavement that really breaks it down.

Take the typical 4 door sedan. I'll use the Ford Fusion as a base. The fusion weighs in at almost 3400 lbs. Divided by 2 axles makes for about 1700 lbs per axle. That's the equivalent of 8 and a half 200 lbs people. Will 8 people standing in the middle of the road really break down pavement? I think not.

Compare this to the maximum allowable weight of a commercial truck in Michigan (82 tons). A typical 18 wheeler has 7 axles. This equates to a devastating 23,400 lbs/axle. That's nearly 12 tons. See the difference?
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2659
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the explanation.
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 296
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Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2008801120378

Even SMALLER Cobo plan!!
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6126
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 2:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ya know what... I keep hearing about how all the convention space has to be on 1 level... and then I see all the auto companies building a 2 level display space for their own products (granted they're likely doing so because they're tight on space).

Why don't we take that idea and expand on it... instead of an exterior expansion... why don't they add a mezzanine (within the existing space) on the north side and south side of the exhibition hall. I bet that they could add 75,000-100,000 sq. ft. on the north and south ends of the existing space, and accommodate future auto show expansion.

Granted this is not what other exhibition centers do, but it will take care of the problem for the auto show for a number of years until the economy improves. And the cost... likely less than $50 million, a lot less than the other scenarios.

And the auto companies that utilize mezzanine/main floor space can use the side of the mezzanine level for signage. It's what they're already doing with their 2 level displays.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 206
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is 120,000 sq. ft. going to be enough? I keep hearing how the existing companies are clammoring for more space and there's no room for the Chinese companies. This only makes sense if it's planned to allow for further expansion in the near future. Cobo Arena must be costing a lot of money to maintain. They should demolish it even if they can't build all the additional space right now.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 1081
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this is a case where something is better than nothing. Any amount of space that can be added will help to stop efforts to siphon the show away.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 4826
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ficano and KK are running scared that no Cobo expansion would be possible after Ford reorganizes or goes bankrupt. Ford is not terribly far from doing that, BTW. Ford's stock closed even lower on Friday ($6.06) than the previous bad week--is now selling @ $6.05 after hours). Still, Ford is better off now than just last Wednesday (less than $5.80). That's the worst for Ford stock since 1982.

Who really cares if the NAIAS leaves for Chicago, and a smaller auto show replaces it? Any imported funds to Detroit's economy from a regional auto show would not be much different than that from the NAIAS.

The no build scenario with the remote chance of losing the NAIAS is better than overbuilding Cobo with more taxes and still having it mismanaged, as now. The NAIAS surely won't go to LA because few there care about US cars, the LA auto show is poorly covered by the press, and its attendance isn't great.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 13, 2008)
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Gistok
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Post Number: 6127
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lets get this straight... the Detroit Auto Dealers Association... the folks who sponsor the NAIAS are NOT leaving Detroit, and neither is the NAIAS.

It's the prestige of the show that could go elsewhere... not the show itself.
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Livernoisyard. I think doing nothing is better than a half-cocked, reactionary type of expansion. If we want to become a convention destination we've got to get cooperation from all levels of gov't, and get the biggest/best possible center for the space available. If that means we wait a couple more years for pressure to mount, so be it.

In the mean time, the leaders here have to be creative, like the "tax free zone" to keep people and shows coming. This is the "North American" Auto Show, and we need to incorporate our international location into the pitch.
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Softailrider
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Username: Softailrider

Post Number: 108
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Put a damm casino on the ground floor , put the convention center above . Watch the gaming companies kill each other for the right to put up 500 mil for that 4th casino .
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Craigd
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Username: Craigd

Post Number: 2765
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Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick doesn't seem to realize there are a lot of people in the city who want to feel the same sense of security as he does. The Detroit Free Press reported last week that Detroit's police chief is refusing to assign more cops to Kilpatrick's personal bodyguard squad. The mayor's request for more soldiers in his little army is beyond belief. In Milwaukee, a city of about the same size as Detroit, the mayor has just one guard per eight-hour shift. In Chicago, a much bigger city, 10 to 15 guards are assigned to Mayor Richard Daley. But Kilpatrick already has 21 cops in his security force, and he wants six more who'd have to be pulled from the streets. The mayor owes the people of Detroit an explanation for this arrogant and insensitive outrage. All this from a Mayor who Declared during the Detroit Piston's celebration that "This is my City". Typical...


------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------

A son of Detroit Indeed...

We here at Liberalscum.com had so much hope for Detroit's native son. We hoped he could break the seemingly never-ending cycle of corruption and power abuse that the city of Detroit has seen since 1973 when Coleman Young was in office. Young was mayor of Detroit from 1973 to 1993 and oversaw the city through years of “white flight” and massive plant closures, which resulted in the economic devastation of the city. We hoped that he would be the anti Gill hill. We hoped that the neighborhoods that once were full of hope could reclaim some of their past glory. We hoped that the downtown would show some signs of life and that the public school system from which the mayor sprouted would be fixed giving it's students at least some hope for the future.

What's replaced hope is the same old cynicism that fuels Detroit politics and has for over three decades. He has made every attempt to alienate the police force and stand behind the corrupt Jerry Oliver as Chief of Police. The same police force where his buddies get cushy jobs on his security detachment guarding the mayor's mansion during his wild and raucous parties that he denies having. He treats the city like some kind of gilded jewel in his crumbling crown. He proclaims himself the nation's first Hip-Hop mayor. Not exactly a badge of honor. He is trying to put his cronies in charge of a morally bankrupt school system to further it's demise. He has masterminded no new developments downtown are anywhere for that matter in the city. The city no only has one K-Mart because of the crime rate. As a matter of fact just this year Detroit ranked as the most dangerous city in America. Good Job on that mayor.

The news isn't all bad per say. Detroit will be hosting the Superbowl in 2006 and the 2005 MLB All-Star game. In preparation for the Superbowl roads have beem re-paved and not a whole lot of of anything else. Having been to many football games downtown already I can only say that I am ashamed for Detroit because of what a sad shape the city is in. If you drive down Woodward (The main strip in Detroit) you see mostly boarded up stores with the occasional wig shop or pager shop. No shopping of any kind that will appeal to anyone who comes downtown for an event. In his bio he says his Biggest achievement was Becoming mayor of Detroit, something he had dreamed about since he met former Mayor Coleman Young when he was 10. Not an idol one should have if they want become anything other than a man who destroyed the 4th biggest city in America. He also says his Current goal is To make Detroit a destination for families, visitors and businesses and to halt the 50-year exodus of population from the city. The city's population continues to spiral downwards under his regime. Nobody comes to visit Detroit they way they come to visit Chicago or New York or L.A. When people do come to Detroit it is because they have to not because they want to.

Detroit has been mired in a slump of it's own volition for the past 35 plus years. What Detroit needs is leadership that isn't out to make a name for himself. Detroit's Mayor needs a reality check so that he can see what a shit hole he presides over and that unless he provides the hard working men and women of Detroit with some real solutions to the problems that he helps fester he will be out of office come next election cycle. That may or may not be true seeing as Coleman Young destroyed the city and the people kept him in power to do so. Maybe they will let king Kwame keep his dirty little jewel in his crumbling crown for as long as he desires to feed his enormous ego.


True Story about his ego:

Opening Day at Comerica Park 2002, We were standing in front of the Fox Theatre on Woodward across the street from the stadium when up Woodward came two Oldsmobile's. Inside car one was the Governor's Security detail and in the second car was then Governor John Engler. 3 Minutes later a convoy consisting of 2 Lincoln Town Cars, Two Cadillac Escalade's and 4 motorcycle cops came up the strip. Kwame was in the second Escalade. Just to recap; Governor of a state of 9 and a half million people comes in a two Oldsmobile convoy, New Mayor of a crime ridden corrupt city of 925,000 comes sporting Cadillac's and Lincoln's and a police escort. I guess they need the other vehicle to hold his ego.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11208
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Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're really quoting a site called liberalscum.com.

Great credibility.
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Granmontrules
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Username: Granmontrules

Post Number: 290
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it must be getting close to election time - the mayor haters will start it up again.

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