 
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 524
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 5:30 pm: |    |
Can anyone research the parcels along Woodward/75 that the city would need to acquire so that Ilitch could build there?
BTW, I just got a 'brain fart' ;-)
The land at Woodward/75 reverted to the city.
Why doesn't the city do the site assembly for the new arena and lease or provide the land to Ilitch in return for him building the arena?
Heck lease the land for $1 per year for 99 years.
If the city owns the land then they can do eminent domain.
Does this compute? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2302
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 6:55 pm: | |
quote:
If the city owns the land then they can do eminent domain.
Does this compute?
If the city owns the land, why would they need to do eminent domain? |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 527
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 7:14 pm: | |
What I was getting at is that the city owns, most, but not all of the land necessary.
I believe the article suggests this:
"...The city and the Detroit Economic Development Corp. own about half of the land within the first four blocks north of I-75, between Woodward and Park.
But the cost of acquiring other parcels and offering the space for one development has been too expensive, said Brian Holdwick, the growth corporation's vice president of business and financial services.
The city has marketed some of its land to prospective developers, perhaps for a mixed-use development, Holdwick said. The nearly four-block area has been called an ideal spot for a new Detroit Red Wings hockey arena according to one development expert. But Ilitch Holdings spokeswoman Karen Cullen declined to discuss specific locations for a new arena."
I assume the city or Ilitch or both would still have problems with parcel assembly. |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 7:50 pm: | |
Eminent domain is no longer feasible for a hockey arena. There have been many discussions on this board about the re-tightening of eminent domain laws. Basically transferring land to a private owner just because it's for "the greater good", increased employment, taxes, etc. cannot be considered public use. However maybe now with two locations in play Ilitch can negotiate from a position of strength, i.e. the few remaining parcels at Woodward vs. the few behind the Fox. Maybe we'll see some progress. |
Thegryphon
Member
Username: Thegryphon
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:13 pm: | |
Question. What would the City of Detroit do with Joe Louis if the Red Wings leave? The stadium occupies a decent chunk of the waterfront. Minus the Wings what does Joe Louis offer? The occasionally concert, beside the Wings it is waaaay underused. Does Detroit really need another empty dinosaur in Downtown? Shouldn't the city and everyone try to keep the Wings at the Lou? |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:19 pm: | |
I'm not saddened that this development didn't come to fruition. If Motown wanted to create a museum to offer things not available at Hitsville, then maybe they could do a partnership with the Museum of African American History. Both could benefit from each other's resources.
The idea of putting an arena at the corner of Woodward and I-75 would be short-sighted. However, for that very reason, it will probably happen. Now that Detroit has the land back and Ilitch has the cash, it's probably a done deal.
An Ellington-like development along that area would be nice like Detroitduo said. The lack of a retail component to a development along Woodward would be a missed opportunity. Well, we'll see.
(Message edited by royce on December 04, 2007) |
Atwater
Member
Username: Atwater
Post Number: 128
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:29 pm: | |
"The idea ... would be short-sighted. However, for that very reason, it will probably happen."
ha.. unfortunately, ain't that the truth. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:34 pm: | |
May a thousand storefronts bloom! |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2949
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:37 pm: | |
"Eminent domain is no longer feasible for a hockey arena. There have been many discussions on this board about the re-tightening of eminent domain laws. Basically transferring land to a private owner just because it's for "the greater good", increased employment, taxes, etc. cannot be considered public use."
I'm pretty sure they could still use their takings power to take land and use it to build a public parking structure next to the arena as long as it remains under the city's ownership...
I wonder then if they would be in compliance with the 2004 amendment if the city built the arena and remained the owners of it and just leased it out to whoever might use it much like they do now with Joe Louis arena...
I admit I'm not too familiar with this area of the law...the 2004 amendment basically defines "public use" as whatever the common law understanding of a public use is at the time the amendment was added to the constitution, and my guess is that type of use wouldn't fall under that understanding, but I can't help but wonder about it...
btw, I'm taking Land Use next semester and I'll probably come back on here after the class is over and laugh at this post. :D
(Message edited by thejesus on December 04, 2007) |
J32885
Member
Username: J32885
Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 2:03 am: | |
I read that article this morning before school. Too bad the Motown Museum isn't going to happen, and that the project has been a waste. It would be better to make more improvements at the Hitsville USA site.
Still, I like idea that User English came up about a Detroit Music Museum, that honors the other types music that made the city what it id today.
Anyway, watch the evening news on Channel 2 & 4, and they are saying the property will revert back to the city and they will auction off the other parcels of land to the highest bidder.
Now land wise, it's a huge parcel of land. It could be use for a new arena if the Ilitches really wanted it, but they still got all that land behind the FOX & The Fillmore.
Other uses that I could see:
- More Condos
- Townhouses
- Small Commercial Strip
- Parking Lots
So any how, thats my take on this property. |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 528
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 2:45 am: | |
Thanks, Thejesus.
With the city owning most of the land needed to build an arena I was wondering what their options are to acquire the rest.
Any attorneys out there?
Could the city acquire the rest of the land through eminent domain and lease it to Ilitch to build an arena or would the city need to build and own the arena?
What I'm getting at is that the city, not Ilitch, would hold title to the land.
Does that make any difference in MI' eminent domain law? |
Wiz40
Member
Username: Wiz40
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
I managed the Shop Around gift shop in the late 90s on the Boulevard. As an intern at The Henry Ford, the partnership created a wonderful exhibit. It was disheartening hearing people suggest moving the house to Greenfield Village, although now it would be a bonanza. All the talk about artists, songwriters and others contributing financially would get it built, but it takes public support to sustain it (just ask the Detroit Historical about Fort Wayne). After growing up in the era, trying to relive it inside among the malaise outside was a refreshing time in my life. But if all we could come up with was street signs proclaiming it Berry Gordy Blvd.- that shows a lack of drive. We tried living history (glad they are accomplishing it), we tried weekends with radio stations (still going on), etc. None of the employees resorted to using resources to get into music, or trying to gain financially from the place, we were just having fun and wanted museum careers. Either because of the way people thought about us, or due to the way the world is: Hitsville USD as a name change? |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4384
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 11:44 pm: | |
Big Announcement of 2008? Red Wings Arena to be built north of the Fox?
My little birdies have been chirping that song for over a year now. A large multiuse parking structure would fill the Motown/Sanders footprint serving the Fox, Tigers and Red Wings. The only main impediment is the taxi garage guy who wants seven million. Glad to see this out in the open as my birdies were scoffed at a lot when I first posted this.
AHEMquote:"The Economic Development Corp. gets to keep those dozen properties now that the deal is dead.
And as a condition of the deal falling through, the city received three more Woodward properties from Motown Center in lieu of the $2.5 million being paid back, Papapanos said.
Hockey arena a possibility?
The three Woodward properties faced foreclosure April 1, 2008, because Motown Center owed about $14,000 in unpaid property taxes dating to 2005, according to the Wayne County Treasurer's office.
...
The Woodward land could be combined with the other parcels owned by the Economic Development Corp. and the city, and sold to a developer, Papapanos said.
The city and the Detroit Economic Development Corp. own about half of the land within the first four blocks north of I-75, between Woodward and Park.
But the cost of acquiring other parcels and offering the space for one development has been too expensive, said Brian Holdwick, [like that seven million] the growth corporation's vice president of business and financial services.
The city has marketed some of its land to prospective developers, perhaps for a mixed-use development, Holdwick said. The nearly four-block area has been called an ideal spot for a new Detroit Red Wings hockey arena according to one development expert. But Ilitch Holdings spokeswoman Karen Cullen declined to discuss specific locations for a new arena.
One development official suspects the land would give Mike and Marian Ilitch, owners of the Red Wings, an option other than building behind the Fox Theatre, where the family empire has acquired a wide swath of land.
"Ilitch always has two or three areas (in mind) to stay ahead of the speculators," said Patrick Dorn, executive director of the Cass Corridor Neighborhood Development Corp. "You can't get a better, sweeter spot for an arena," than the Motown Center land and surrounding properties.
|
Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker
Post Number: 3859
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 8:29 am: | |
Your birdies have been eating some marywanna seeds if they think that will actually happen.
Its a red herring to keep folks guessing.
Those following the transactions know that Olympia Holdings is still continuing its buying spree behind the Fox.
How the hell do you think Dennis K got the $3 million in scratch to buy Shapero Hall? By selling the Elizabeth Street Lofts to an LLC addressed at the Fox. On a per foot price that is much higher than the $7 million hold out for one parcel north of I-75.
Sounds to me like your birdies are trying to whip up interest in speculators to buy their parcels and then dump and run.
Smart move on their part if they are cash strapped. |
Jimg
Member
Username: Jimg
Post Number: 979
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 9:20 am: | |
English, many folks have championed the concept of a Det music museum, but with a twist: it would support historical research into areas other than jazz, or Motown. And it would serve as a performance space or at least underwrite performances by Det musicians.
The Graystone International Jazz Museum carried out important jazz research, offered jazz performances, and had some neat exhibits too. It survived the death of its founder, James Jenkins, and lasted twenty years on little more than donations and a few odd grants. Students, out of town visitors, and even residents visited the museum.
If the concept was expanded to include other Det music, the sky's the limit... |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 515
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
Where are/were the Elizabeth Street lofts? I assume they're on Elizabeth Street, but there are several buildings on that street that may qualify.
(Message edited by gnome on December 24, 2007) |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 637
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 12:14 pm: | |
Jimg: Glad to hear it. Of course Detroit's famous for more than Motown and jazz... we're also Detroit Rock City, the electronic music capital, home of the garage bands, gospel music capital, etc.
This would be the best possible place for an international popular music research center. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11119
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 12:21 pm: | |
jimg - Are there any fundraisers or volunteer opportunities for this? If so, can you send me an e-mail at jt1_detroit@yahoo.com and let me know if there is anyway that I could help. |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4385
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
I will defer to your expertise Skulker but you owe me a beer and my birdies, who do not have a dog in the fight, some of those maryjane seeds if they are right.
My birdies are also chirping about a key figure leaving the DEGC and the D for a post in Charlotte. Or are they hitting more of those wackee seeds? |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 541
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
If Ilitch goes behind the Fox will the price of the $7M parcel (discussed here) drop maybe low enough that someone could finish the site assembly for something big along Woodward/75?
I always assumed one of the biggest reasons why developments failed in places like Atlantic City is that speculators buy property early on (and maybe over pay) and then try to jack the price up to ridiculous levels and end up killing all the possible development.
Oops, didn't need to use Atlantic City as an example, I could have used the Greektown site on Gratiot.
Ilitch announces plans to build a new arena is my big prediction for '08. |
Jimg
Member
Username: Jimg
Post Number: 981
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 3:15 pm: | |
jt1, if you have research and writing skills and passion for Det music, there is an immediate employment opportunity!••••www.detroitmusichistory.com
We have jazz/blues covered, I think, but alas we know next to nothing about techno, rock, house, gospel, or any of the many other musics which began or had a strong presence in Det. But thank you for your offer, regardless.
I forgot to mention, as well, the Detroit Jazz Center, a short-lived space in the old Women's Club. John Sinclair chaired the board and they did wonderful things. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 990
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
Dennis K was paid $1,600,000 for the .17 acre parcel on Grand River. That's $234/sq. ft., not a bad price. (Price reported by Verifiable on this forum, which I verified from the seller. What is amazing is that the Ilitch entity took no steps to prevent the public from seeing the purchase price, such as filing a Valuation Affidavit. Unbelievable. That [apparent] slip-up will cost them a fortune when negotiating future purchases and may sink an arena behind the Fox if they have much more land to acquire.).) |
Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker
Post Number: 3860
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 9:59 pm: | |
quote: That's $234/sq. ft., not a bad price
That is an unbelievable price seeing as most renovated condos in BP are struggling to make that kind sales per foot price.
Most vacant or marginally used CBD buildings ones have a residual value of $15 - $40 per foot. Generously, they have paid at minimum 9x market price.
quote:What is amazing is that the Ilitch entity took no steps to prevent the public from seeing the purchase price, such as filing a Valuation Affidavit. Not really surprising at all. Anyone floating around this town knows what they are doing and its not surprising they don't think to do things like that.
quote:if they have much more land to acquire.
They don't. And the parcels in the Motown / Villages of Woodward site have asking prices north of $400 per foot, unimproved.
They are sunk anywhere if they try to buy large chunks of land now that the avenue of eminent domain has been closed for economic development. They need only 2 or 3 more parcels at most behind the Fox. They would need to acquire more than 20 parcels from more than seven different owners north of 75.
And Lowell, you need new birdies. The Fudge Throated Warbler was singing that Song of The South within 8 hours of it happening. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 5828
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 4:13 am: | |
Two points to be made.
First, Motown Records is a lot more than Black history. Even the Hitsville Museum records many Detroiters who gave their heart and soul to the company who were not African-Americans.
Secondly, jjaba invokes Skipper's Rules, believe it when you see it come out of the ground.
jjaba. |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 543
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 12:37 pm: | |
Skulker's post is most informative.
As I read it, Ilitch let be public knowledge that he paid $234/sq foot which is LESS then the noted rate for a parcel wooward/n. of 75. Seems like he is trying to tell the market what the last transaction was (so the market can gage correctly where the market is).
Wow. Site assembly north of 75 sounds like it would be damn near impossible without eminent domain.
Sounds like whatever will be developed there most likely won't be a new arena.
Sounds likes perhaps a collection of smaller developments.
And 400 / sq ft prices will kill development.
Doesn't it always seem that some land owners try to get TOO much for their land and it ends up killing meaningful development?
In the end no one wins.
(Message edited by emu_steve on December 26, 2007) |
Verifiable
Member
Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 83
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 1:27 pm: | |
An entity, Cass Avenue Development, owns nearly two square blocks+ (at least 8 parcels) nearer to the Masonic Temple. It is likely that Cass Avenue Development is an unregistered d/b/a for Cass Avenue, LLC an entity controlled by Ilitch Holdings, Inc. which the DL&EG notes reports Ilitch VP of tax affairs John Kotlar as its registered agent. More details can be found at http://www.theverifiabletruth. com/2007/12/ilitch-controls-ca ss-avenue-llc-and.html |
Billk
Member
Username: Billk
Post Number: 191
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 1:47 pm: | |
Crain's chimes in:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 1224/SUB/712240326/1070/-/-/de velopers-look-again-at-motown- museum-land |
Beach
Member
Username: Beach
Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:00 pm: | |
Verifiable,
Cass Avenue Development is owned by Joel Landy.
I lived in one of his buildings--Addision Apartments at 14 Charlotte St. It's the building that has Atlas Global Bistro on the ground floor. From what I understand, Landy owns about two square blocks in that area(Charlotte on the South, Woodward on the East, Peterboro on the North, and Cass on the West). There was a recent article in Model D about a couple of buildings he was rehabbing on Charlotte. As a side note, I have heard from other people who had lived there that he purchased all of it in the 80s for about $8K.
I am unaware of any connection to Illitch, but who knows.
(Message edited by Beach on December 27, 2007) |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5993
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:53 pm: | |
Although I agree with Skulkers comments, the 2-3 parcels that they still need for west Foxtown include the Freda Alibri parking lot parcels.
The Alibri folks sued to get their 3 parking lots back from Ilitch Holdings a few years back, after the county got them via Eminent Domain for the west of Woodward Comerica Park location. When that plan was moved to east of Woodward, the Alibri's sued, got their 3 parcels back, and returned the $1.8 million they were given for them.
But then the city decided to property tax the 3 Alibri parcels based on that $1.8 million figure. Then the Alibri's fought that as well.
So I hope that the Alibri clan are a little more amicable to reselling their land to Ilitch Holdings... but after all that litigation and bitterness... at what price?
Who knows? But a likely asking price "could" make the $7 million Taxi Company parcel in Midtown seem reasonable. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 5837
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 3:09 pm: | |
These are really civically minded folks, eh.
jjaba. |
Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker
Post Number: 3862
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
quote:Who knows? But a likely asking price "could" make the $7 million Taxi Company parcel in Midtown seem reasonable.
Hardly. If you read carefully you would have noted that the fabled $7 million parcel is one of more than 20 in Woodward area that would need to be acquired.
There are other parcels in the area that owners were asking Sterling Group / Shostak for sums in excess of $15 million. |
Verifiable
Member
Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 85
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 3:20 pm: | |
according to the DL&EG there is no entity known as Cass Avenue Development.
http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bc s_corp/rs_corp.asp?s_button=sn ame&v_search=cass+avenue+&hidd enField= |
Verifiable
Member
Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 86
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 3:28 pm: | |
There are three other properties owners in addition to Alibri that collectively own 75% of the square block that's bordered by Cass Ave. on the west, Clifford St. on the east, W. Montcalm St. on the north and W. Columbia St. on the south. The other three owners control the parcels that front Cass Ave. along the east side of Cass.
Ilitch now controls most of the property on the west side of Cass including the Moose Lodge, Chin Tiki and Ancient Egyptian Arabic Order of Noble Mythic Shrine among others. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5995
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 3:35 pm: | |
Thanks for the info Skulker & Verifiable.
This reminds me of all the property owners in Rivertown who were asking astronomical amounts for their parcels when Archer was planning on a riverfront casino site.
Now that that plan went into the dustbin... they're reaping what they sow... sitting on their "golden" property for years to come! |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 992
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 6:45 pm: | |
There is no way Ilitch wanted the price of any property he's ever purchased being made public. It had to be a grievous error, malpractice on the part of a lawyer if one was responsible for filing a Valuation Affidavit, and didn't.
I think Skulker is correct. There's little chance a new arena, if one's built, will go anywhere other than behind the Fox or up by MC Casino.
$234 sq. ft. is $10,193,040 per acre. That's "not a bad price" for Detroit but won't buy an acre in many other places. Local lawyer Bob Zeff got $12,500,00 an acre 9 years ago for 12 acres he owned on the Vegas Strip. See how far $10 mil will go per acre in Manhattan, downtown Chicago, Toronto or many other cities around the world.
Land cost is a relatively insignificant cost of a major ($200,000,000) development project. These developers (Ilitch,Karmanos, Quicken, Ford) get so many tax breaks, govt. handouts ad nauseum, that getting a little clipped here and there on a couple of small parcels by landowners doesn't even count. Nickles and dimes.
Emu_steve says: "Doesn't it seem that some landowners try to get TOO much for their land and it ends up killing meaningful development?" NO! Very few developments have ever been scuttled because of hold-out landowners, although that does occur rarely. (There's a 20' X 20' niche in the side of Rockefeller Center because Rockefeller wouldn't pay a fruit dealer what he was asking, and built around it.) If the developer has options, and the economics are iffy in the first place, he will go elsewhere. Where the development is site specific, the developer will simply pay up. It's all a big song and dance, pony show.
Prediction: Ilitch will blink before Alibri. And it will only hurt for a minute.
This country was built on the blessing of private property ownership. That means a property owner has the right to be an idiot, and end up losing a good sale. It doesn't happen very often; most folks won't cut off their noses to spite their faces.
Gistok: I'm surprised at you. The Riverfront casino deal went down for one primary reason. THE CASINOS NEVER WANTED TO GO THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Archer was such an idiot. The casino developers put a $200,000,000 cap on the cost they would pay for land (in the aggregate.) A pittance. The City would be responsible for any overruns. Then the City tried to condemn the land and of course f_____ that up as usual (on purpose?) The casinos ended up just where they wanted to be since day one. (Steve Wynn had more than $200,000,000 of his personally owned art on display at Belagio at the time the casino owners imposed the land acquisition cap on the Riverfront land. What a joke.) |
Neilr
Member
Username: Neilr
Post Number: 622
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 9:17 pm: | |
quote:There's a 20' X 20' niche in the side of Rockefeller Center because Rockefeller wouldn't pay a fruit dealer what he was asking, and built around it.
My favorite author, Andrew Alpern, devotes a chapter to this (with pictures) in his book, New York's Architectural Holdouts.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ ct/0486294250/sr=1-1/qid=11987 19220/ref=olp_product_details? ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1198719220&sr= 1-1&seller= |
Beach
Member
Username: Beach
Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
Verifiable--
You're definitely right that Cass Avenue Development Co. is not registered on the DL&EG website. However, Joel Landy and the Cass Ave. Development Co were just mentioned/quoted in a recent Crains article (link posted in separate thread entitled "Filling in the Gaps").
Landy is a pretty unconventional guy and it would not surprise me that he would run his development business under a name that is not a registered. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5996
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
OK 3WC... if gaming analysts said that having the 3 casinos located together in one location would mean more business for each (as opposed to being isolated from each other like they are today)... then why would they not want to be at the riverfront site?
Now if the difference in business for each casino was only marginally more as a group versus isolation... then I can understand their being cool to the riverfront idea, and not wanting to pay "a lot" for the expensive waterfront site.
My point was only that some landowners played a game of poker and lost... they're now sitting on land that may take a long time before they can get the prices that they hoped for, let alone what the city was offering. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2464
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 12:32 am: | |
Regarding land owners with parking lots behind the Fox, would Ilitch consider making a deal with them to let them run a parking deck that would have to be built in the area in exchange for their land? That would seem like a fair compromise. Just a thought. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5999
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 12:54 am: | |
Royce, that's an interesting idea. Another idea could be... if say the Alibri's have 300 parking spots... then Ilitch could give them the revenue of 300 of the say 4000 spaces of a parking deck. That would free them up from paying taxes or maintaining their lots.
But the devil could be in the details in any such plans... |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 545
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 7:08 am: | |
RE: Gistok's post about having casinos separate or together.
That seems to be the central question in gaming, namely, is the idea that folks will move from casino to casino (as they do in Vegas) OR will they choose ONE (based on something like easy of access, parking, etc.)?
After all, the odds of winning blackjack is the same at all three casinos. No 'comparison shopping' for best deal on blackjack. ;-)
Perhaps the casino execs decided they are entirely different scenarios.
Vegas is designed as a vacation mecca where folks find a hotel to stay and then walk from casino to casino to casino. They have plenty of time to spend while vacationing. One show one night; another show the next. One buffet today; another buffet tomorrow. Each can be in a different hotel.
In Vegas 'standalone' casinos are popular only with the locals. Maybe some professional gamblers from So. Cal also. Not popular with tourist/vacationers.
I won't even consider a casino a mile off the Strip or downtown.
Detroit is probably more of a drive/park/gamble/drive home. Folks don't go looking for a weekend vacation, shopping, souvenirs, buffets, and multiple shows, etc.
I see Detroit's casino industry analogous to a commuter college: Drive, park, classes, and drive home.
Casino execs, I think, felt that 'the marketplace' would decide. Some would be regulars at MGM, some at MC, and some at Greektown.
After the Greektown opened I never visited the MGM again and I have NEVER visited the MC (sorry Marian).
To me a casino has to be next to something else, Greektown restaurants, some sporting venue (e.g., CoPa), etc.
At Greektown, it is possible to gamble and drink, then go out for food and then to CoPa for a Tigs game.
That works for me. |
Drm
Member
Username: Drm
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 10:07 am: | |
quote:After all, the odds of winning blackjack is the same at all three casinos. No 'comparison shopping' for best deal on blackjack. ;-) Actually, yes there is. The rules offered on a particular game of blackjack greatly change the odds. For example, a blackjack game that pays 6:5 rather than the standard 3:2 on a player blackjack ends up costing the player an additional 1.39%. In other words, for each $100 bet, the player will lose an additional $1.39. There are similar examples relating to other table games and video poker.
Casinos make a lot of money from people who throw their money on the table without bothering to learn even a little bit about the game they're playing. |
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.