Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » CBC special: Windsor 20/20. Detroit's neighbour should be a success but its not. « Previous Next »
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 748
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The CBC has a great little series on Windsor and coming up with a vision for the future of Detroit's neighbour. Check out the whole series which features video clips and photos at
http://www.cbc.ca/windsor/feat ures/2020/index.html

Following is a quick quote from the CBC.
---

Windsor is an enigma.
It should be an overwhelming success story.

It has great weather, hot humid summers and fairly mild winters. It sits in a geographic pocket that puts it four hours from Toronto and five hours from Chicago. It has the busiest international border crossing in North America with one-third of all trade between the US and Canada passing over the Ambassador Bridge. It has affordable housing within the city limits and a skilled workforce. It's a boater's dream with quick access to Lakes Erie and St.Clair from dozens of marinas. It is home to Chrysler Canada and Hiram Walker Distilleries and has turned its once shameful waterfront into a garden oasis and outdoor sculpture park. It has a multi-million dollar casino-hotel-entertainment complex. And it is also the fourth most ethnically diverse community in Canada behind Toronto, Vancouver and Hamilton.

Windsor should be an overwhelming success story... but it isn't. And in part what is missing is vision. The grand plan. The path that takes us to a brighter future.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3192
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It has great weather, hot humid summers and fairly mild winters."

lol, only in Canada...
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4111
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Five hours from Chicago...and five minutes from Detroit.

'How bout you ignore the city where half of Windsor is employed/educated, CBC?

Okay so maybe half is a lie, but tons of Canadians work in the city, and go to school at Wayne State and other institutions. ...but let's just ignore that.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 4341
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have sampled some of the video. Very interesting. I suggest starting with this one which sets the tone.

Oct. 26 - Windsor need only look to its past to see into the future. Video Journalist Pat Jeflyn shows us how Windsor's past visionaries have left their imprint on the city and how we need new ones today.
(runs 6:23) Watch

I think it is a little too much of the fist-against-the-forehead reporting, like the art students shooting the 'ruins' of Windsor [come north kiddies if you want to see the real thing]. Windsor suffers from the same de-industrialization combined with suburbanization malaise that the City of Detroit does.

Most disturbing, amid all this angst, is that there is no discussion of a needlessly over-restrictive international border that is killing Windsor, even far more than it is costing Detroit.

Windsor is isolated at a tip of a peninsula and its salvation lies in free flow people across our straits and greater integration with the American communities of our common metropolis. Windsorites should be marching on Ottawa [And Detroiters on Washington too] to demand a treaty to open our nearly 200 year peaceful border.

All said, and in spite of the challenges of the moment, I think Windsor is great place and a success.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is bizarre that the CBC report failed to mention the benefits that Windsor receives from being so close to Detroit, i.e. shopping, professional sports, employment opportunities, medical care (when not delayed at the border :-)), etc. I guess that Detroit gets as much respect by the Canadian press as it gets from the American press. :-(

As far as Lowell's comments regarding the border, certainly Windsor has borne a disproportionate burden with respect to post-9/11 border policies (as has Detroit). That being said, what complicates the movement of person across the international border at Windsor-Detroit are the limited crossing options: i.e. for travellers it is the bridge and tunnel.

For communities sitting on a river tucked between two large lakes, there is very limited marine traffic between the communities. Passenger ferry and car ferry options could significantly increase the flow of persons between the two communities. Passenger rail is also an option that currently does not exist.

Windsor's greatest advantage is its proximity to Metro Detroit. Instead of always focusing on building more bridges (literal bridges that is), how about using the river at the heart of the region?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2312
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I guess that Detroit gets as much respect by the Canadian press as it gets from the American press.



They probably take their cue from the American press. It's funny because they mentioned Windsor being the HQ of Chrysler Canada, but ignored any other reference to Detroit. Also, by their logic of Windsor being between Toronto and Chicago, Detroit should be a smashing success as well right now...
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 938
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit and Windsor both suffer from geographical isolation of the same type. Windsor is at the tip of a peninsula, geographically isolated from (and south of all of) the rest of Canada; Detroit is just a little too far into the Lower Peninsula to benefit from being along the Chicago to New York trade corridor.

Upinottawa, there are two car ferries, but none very close to Detroit, and I wonder why that is so. I agree that there is sufficient traffic to add a ferry. (There is a truck ferry just west of downtown.) But the problem may be US Customs: there were, until 1985, three car ferries crossing the St. Clair River, but in 1985 Customs decided to shut down its post at the Roberts Landing ferry to Port Lambton, which necessitated ending that service.

Passenger rail traffic between Port Huron and Sarnia existed until roughly 2002, when post 9/11 customs hassles made the service to complicated to maintain. I don't know if there has ever been passenger rail service between Detroit and Windsor. Anyone have that info?
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1942
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I don't know if there has ever been passenger rail service between Detroit and Windsor. Anyone have that info?


The New York Central RR ran trains from Chicago to New York through Michigan and Ontario.

I think it would be beneficial for both regions to connect the VIA rail services to the Amtrak services on either side of the border.

Having a train cross the border mid-route might now work well anymore, but having passengers clear customs at a station on either side would work fine.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 194
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell:

The visionary piece is a bit light despite the flattering profile my father-in-law Bert Weeks.

American entrepreneur Hiram Walker obviously had a huge impact on this community but did not receive a mention.

You can read up at:

http://www.walkervilletimes.co m/hiramwho.htm

Interesting to see my Kahn exhibit in the profile as well- Kahn's legacy is incredible on both sides of the straits. You can read a profile of Kahn by downloading The Walkerville Times (page 22-23).

Gord McGregor was a pioneer who foresaw the coming of the auto and worked with Henry Ford to develop and expand Ford Motor of Canada.

So where are the visionaries today? Beaten down by a local government more interested in hiring high-priced consultants to tell us the time and then take our watch.

The Dennis Desrosier piece is instructive concerning our fair city for anyone who cares to listen (Nov. 30 audio).
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2316
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit is just a little too far into the Lower Peninsula to benefit from being along the Chicago to New York trade corridor.



I never really bought this because... well, none of the cities along the Chicago-NYC corridor are really stellar performers. Detroit is by far the largest economy between the two cities (Toronto not included). If being along that route was extremely lucrative then Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Toledo would be in great shape right now...
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1024
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a NEXUS-only car ferry could be useful and it would provide a real benefit to NEXUS card holders. The ferry would run at peak times and would allow NEXUS members to jump the queues at the customs plazas -- queues that often delay NEXUS members from accessing the actual NEXUS lanes.

Theoretically, customs officers could verify whether a vehicle/persons are NEXUS members as the vehicles are loading on the ferry or during the short ride to the other side.

A passenger ferry could also replace the tunnel bus service from Windsor. The Windsor terminal would be just north of the new bus terminal and the Detroit terminal would ideally be located a short walk from a peoplemover stop.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 195
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My brother-in-law proposed a passenger ferry between Detroit and Windsor in 1982 and was unceremoniously shot down by the powers that be. He was the owner of a big marine contracting company and had the money and know-how behind him.

I always felt that the site of the floating Casino on the riverfront was perfect as a passenger ferry terminal but of course that was also deemed too creative...

The concept of a "NEXUS only" mode of transport crossing has great merit- in any form. As a NEXUS card holder the biggest frustration is getting to the NEXUS booth.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1025
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In light of delays that tunnel bus riders have incurred heading to Tigers, Lions, and Wings games, taking a passenger ferry to Detroit and then a connecting bus to the stadium would be ideal since the ferry would not get stuck in tunnel traffic (like the bus currently does). Furthermore, Windsor city buses could just loop from the stadium to the docking location instead of having to incur delays crossing the border again and again.

Better still, if US customs processing occurred in the same way as it does at many Canadian airports (i.e. you go through US customs being getting on your plane to the US) then travellers could go through US customs in Windsor before even getting on the ferry. Therefore, if the game was at the Joe, the ferry could drop travellers off at right at the Joe.

With respect to a NEXUS only vehicle ferry: such a ferry could really increase border wait time certainty for frequent crossers (especially commuters).

Walker: too bad about your brother-in-law's proposal. I wonder if things have changed 25 years later?
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 196
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UpinOttawa- yes they've changed- for the worse!

(If I keep this up I will be at 200 posts soon- not bad for four years registered with this account and over 7 years on the forum in total!)....
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 4344
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw the segment on Bert Weeks too. Great move and well deserved accolade to have his name emblazoned.

To me, an open border is a no-brainer route to prosperity and huge savings for both sides. Two bruised brothers united are better than two distant cousins. But the notion seems to get little traction.

When I broach this with Windsorites, I find resistance, guns, loss of local retail to US megamalls, a dash of racism and a dash of Canadian nationalism take their tool. [Note that I do not blame the Canadians about their reservation about the US, I have the same ones.]

American I bring this up to tend to be oblivious or narcissistic , yawn - Windsor? never been there - maybe grumble about potential job competition. The paranoid wheeze about the 'security threats' of the border and 'why should I care I don't need to go there.'

Still I think about the straits freely plied by ferries, private boats, hydrofoil commuter craft looping from Anchor Bay to Toledo to Amherstberg to Windsor to Belle River.

Imagine being able, at will, to hop a boatand cross with no difference than crossing a street -- no wait, no inspection, no intrusion into your personal life. Like crossing from Brooklyn to Manhattan.

An open border is the easiest way to heal our economies yet...
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Davidruffin
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Username: Davidruffin

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having a highly restrictive border between the US & Canada doesn't benefit either countries' economies on the local or national level. not only is there the hassle of long waits for semis hauling freight, etc. across the border, which hinders those transport companies' productivity, a restrictive border also discourages people from crossing the border for entertainment, shopping, and tourism. Both Windsor's and Metro Detroit's economies benefit quite a bit from this exchange. Having a passport requirement can do nothing but hurt these two already struggling economies. The average person who occasionally crosses the border for leisure purposes is not going to even bother with going through the hassle of getting a passport or some sort of pre-certification card. My grandma tells me stories of being able to walk and bike cross the bridge when she was young. Too bad those days are long gone.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 197
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell:

I have no qualms with a free and open border that you have been championing for years- in fact Paul Martin floated this idea when he was Prime Minister of Canada (he also tried to decriminalize reefer but ran up against the neo-cons)- aren't all borders merely figments of our imagination in any case? If you look at the blue planet from satellite photos there doesn't appear to be any borders except those carved by nature- your concept would be a boon for business and for social exchange- but thanks to Bush (shrub?) the border is run by fascists as has been discussed in this forum ad nauseum- I don't blame Detroiters for staying north of the border- who wants to be subjected to the vagaries of nazis?

But once upon a time our forefathers rode ferry boats and lake steamers and crossed the straits at will- imagine being able to work or live on either side without a visa- such was the case until the 1960s-I could keep a condo and warehouse in downtown detroit and enjoy a Walkerville home in the summer- quelle vie!
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 750
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Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How did they do it 50 years ago when ferry boats connected the both downtowns? People still has to show Id did they not? And people went between the two cities because there was action in both the downtowns to partake in.

It is not border delays keeping people from going to Windsor. It is the fact the city allowed suburban development to take over and kill off what made going to Windsor interesting. Bring back the core, and people will visit.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 939
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell, like most ideas that make perfect sense, that has no traction with our government. Europeans now have an easier time crossing from country to country than we do, to our shame, and to the detriment of both our economies.

Perhaps someday we can find a way to elect a government that cares about how people live and wants to improve things, but that will require we stop listening to jingoists who rile us up with fake issues like gay marriage. I don't hold out much hope for that.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2325
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It is not border delays keeping people from going to Windsor. It is the fact the city allowed suburban development to take over and kill off what made going to Windsor interesting. Bring back the core, and people will visit.



Potential border delays and "random" searches kept me away after 9/11...
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 751
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well maybe you should not worry about it so much. The delays are not that big a deal at all. It hardly takes any more time then before.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2326
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Well maybe you should not worry about it so much. The delays are not that big a deal at all. It hardly takes any more time then before.



Maybe now, but in the year or two after 9/11 it was not uncommon to have delays of over an hour. Once it took me more than 2 hours to cross the bridge in the middle of the night.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 198
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The border is much different than pre 9/11- trunks are inspected on a regular basis which was unheard of before- and each time a trunk is open it delays the line- NEXUS is not much better either as it is not uncommon to get hauled in for "non-compliance" whatever the f#@* that means! No small wonder we don't see many Michigan plates on this side of the border these days...

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